All The Myriad Ways
Twilight hit the cutie map and rolled off to land on the ground with a thump. She had lost count of how many times it had happened now. For a pony who counted everything, that just went to show how off the rails things had gone.
From the other side of the table, Spike snarked, “Well, that didn’t work.” ‘Again’ went unspoken.
Twilight covered her head with her hooves and groaned. This was getting ridiculous. All Starlight had to do was interact at all with Rainbow or Fluttershy or the little bullies and the timeline fell apart. Meanwhile, she had to prevent Starlight from doing the same, while not doing anything flashy enough to prevent the bullying or distract Rainbow from the race or… seemingly a million other things. The invisibility she had tried last time had seemed the perfect solution to that. Starlight had somehow seen right through it though, and yet again frozen her in crystal until it was too late.
“Hey, Twilight?” Spike called, still lying on the floor. “How come this time travel doesn’t work like in ‘Wyld Stallyns’ Excellent Adventures’? You know, the way they could take as long as they want to go back and change something earlier to help them with whatever they’re doing at the moment, as long as they planned to do it in the future,” he babbled. “When we go back, there aren’t even any past Twilights or Spikes or Starlights from the other times we went back.”
Staring up at the ceiling from where she was also still lying on the floor, Twilight prepared to deliver a lecture on the temporal mechanics presumably involved in the spell (and the proper tense to discuss something that somepony will be going to have caused to have already always happened), only to cut herself short. “Spike, you’re a genius! We actually can take our time to plan our next move instead of running straight back again!”
Looking around at where they had ended up this time, the cutie map was back inside a crystal room. It didn’t look quite right, but at least it didn’t look threatening either. With no obvious dangers looming it should actually be possible to sit down and think of a decent plan before returning. They’d still arrive at the same moment no matter when she used the spell. Actually, make that prepare several decent plans. There was no guarantee she’d easily find another world she wouldn’t be forced to run from if the first plan failed.
After offering the universe a straight line like that, Twilight glanced worriedly at the door to the room, half-expecting an evil version of Trixie or somepony to come barging in. The door stayed shut though, and with a sigh of relief, Twilight continued to ponder the situation out loud so that Spike could act as a sounding board. “Since there aren’t any previous versions of us or her, nothing we do on one trip will have any effect on subsequent trips,” she mused, “provided she doesn’t actually kill us or otherwise prevent us from trying again.”
“Hey, Twilight.”
“And since her chosen revenge requires me to be aware that she’s broken my friendships because of cutie marks rather than just killing me, that means I can just keep trying as long as I want, so I’m bound to win eventually.” Twilight smiled and nodded to herself at that thought. “As soon as we make it back from one trip where she doesn’t affect the past, I destroy the spell.”
“Twilight.”
“Continuing that thought only for the sake of completeness, if Starlight died on one trip, she wouldn’t be there on the following trip, allowing that trip to go perfectly. Of course, killing her would probably be harder than just stopping her, unless I just utterly ignore collateral damage on the basis that it won’t have happened when I go back the following time.” Which would probably mean killing a lot of foals, including Rainbow and Fluttershy. Even for something that would ‘never have happened’, Twilight suspected she didn’t have the stomach for that, and that was even if she could somehow bring herself to attempt to kill Starlight herself.
“Twilight!” Spike yelled, unnecessarily loudly.
“What, Spike?” Twilight asked, sitting up at last.
“Look at the map. Does it look a bit less… evil than the ones we’ve seen so far?”
Moving closer, Twilight could see that, yes, the map looked a lot closer to the cool blue it had been originally than the angry reds and sickly greens of the bad timelines they’d been to before.
“Huh. I wonder what that means.”
This time the universe didn’t miss the straight line, and the door banged open. Sunset Shimmer breezed in, escorted by two crystal pony guards. Twilight barely had a second to conclude that this was going to be the timeline where Sunset had overthrown Celestia or something, before Sunset stopped and shot a relieved smile at her.
“Just Twilight. False alarm guys, but good work. You were right to come get me.” The guards saluted and returned to their posts outside the door, and Sunset closed the door behind them.
“Twilight,” she said patiently, “you can’t keep teleporting in here. You’re eventually going to give the guards outside a case of ‘The filly who cried wolf’, and if somepony ever does sneak past the wards they’ll just assume one of the Element Bearers just teleported in again and not report it.”
Between trying not to panic at her sudden appearance and information overload at all the things that were implied by Sunset’s words (not least, wards to keep everypony but her friends from getting into this room! First thing she was doing once this was over!), Twilight didn’t quite manage to reply to that before Sunset’s gaze swept the room.
“Hey, is that a dragon?” asked Sunset curiously. As she turned back to Twilight, she only became more surprised. “And, woah! Twilight, you’re an alicorn! When did that happen? Congratulations! How did that happen?”
“Yes, that’s Spike. And yes, I’m an alicorn,” Twilight answered almost automatically, before her mind seized up on the when and how questions, which had rather complicated answers from when she was standing.
Sunset was staring at her intently now. “You’re taller than you should be too, and you look a mess.” Twilight had the sudden premonition that she was about to be mistaken for a changeling again, but Sunset jumped to a different (and, amazingly, almost correct) conclusion. “You’re from the future! Is there some sort of epic pony war in the distant future or something?”
“It’s… more complicated than that,” Twilight answered, somewhat lamely.
“Well, I think I can spare the time to listen to the whole story of anything important enough that you travelled through time for it.” Sunset replied flippantly, as she settled into one of the thrones around the map.
Twilight settled into another throne more slowly, with Spike doing the smart thing and joining her in case they needed to make a rapid exit. Twilight wrapped her forehooves around Spike as she thought. Was telling this story to Sunset a good idea? Even if this seemed to be a more decent alternate world than she had seen before, wouldn’t Sunset want to stop her from changing her world? Of course, that brought up the morality of doing it at all, if Sunset’s world wasn’t overrun by Sombra or changelings or Discord or endless night or Tirek or more ridiculous disasters. Were the ponies who lived here any more expendable than the ones at home? Surely not, but obviously she couldn’t abandon the ponies at home either. What to do, then?
If she was going to not tell Sunset though, she’d pretty much have to either cast the spell right now and escape or else start lying through her teeth. Throwing caution to the winds, Twilight began, “Actually, I think I’m from a different timeline rather than the future.”
Sunset listened to the whole explanation and its relevant context without interruption, though with a growing expression of worry and numerous glances at the spell laid out on the map in front of Twilight’s throne. By the time Twilight had finished everything up to landing in this world, she looked distraught and remained silent for a few moments, considering.
“If all that’s true, why haven’t you tried again already?” asked Sunset, in the manner of one who very much wished that “all of that” wasn’t true.
“I’d just realised that I could take time to come up with a plan instead of rushing straight back, since I’ll arrive back at the same time anyway. And then we noticed your map didn’t look…” Twilight trailed off.
“Like Tartarus come to Equestria?” Sunset finished for her, which was a pretty decent summary of some of the worlds they’d seen. Twilight nodded, and Sunset continued hesitantly, “Look, you must know how that sounds to me. You want to go back and try to stop Starlight again, right?”
Twilight grimaced, but nodded again. When put like that, she must sound like the bad guy from this world’s perspective.
Sunset threw both forelegs up in the air in exasperation. “And yet here you are telling me about it! As far as I’m concerned, there’s two possibilities here if you cast that spell. If what you’re doing is changing the worldline you’re in, you’ll just vanish from this world and appear in a new one, but if what you’re doing is repeatedly changing the past of one timeline, it’s the end of my world!”
“Uh… changing worldlines?” Twilight asked, wishing she’d looked up more of what Star Swirl had written about time travel after the last time.
“Well… even Star Swirl never really understood everything about time travel, did he? And there were a few ways he thought it might be expected to work. One of those was that there were all these world lines running side by side. Every time a choice is made in one of those world lines, the world line splits so that every possible choice happens in one world line or another. If you travelled back in time in that interpretation and changed something, you would end up in a different world line, but your original timeline would still be intact.”
Sunset paused to make sure Twilight wasn’t going to question that explanation, then asked, “You said you only got sucked into the past after picking up Starlight’s spell, right?” After an answering affirmative, she continued, “That sounds more like your timeline still existed after Starlight went back, and that the spell then removed you from that worldline than that she changed the timeline of that world when she travelled back.”
Twilight hadn’t really had time to spare for thinking about that since it happened, but with it drawn to her attention she could certainly see Sunset’s point. Zecora had seemed to know there was something wrong with the timeline though, which contradicted that.
“Of course, I’m not willing to bet my world on guesswork, but since I can’t imagine you’ll be willing to let me examine the spell or let me call anypony else in to join the conversation without using the spell to escape, where exactly does that leave us?”
Twilight had to stop to consider that. Sunset had made no move for the spell, but she had just heard how Twilight had cast it while under fire from Nightmare Moon. Forcing a confrontation while Twilight held the scroll might just make Twilight end Sunset’s world (if that did turn out to be how it worked), while if Sunset had the scroll in front of her to examine it, not destroying it could be argued to be simply irresponsible of her. Trusting her with the scroll, then, was an obviously bad idea. Bringing in more ponies to the discussion seemed a similarly bad idea.
“You’re right,” Twilight said apologetically, “I’m afraid I can’t show you the spell, and I’d like to keep this discussion between just us.” Sunset sighed, but nodded resignedly.
“As for where that leaves us,” Twilight said slowly, “I’ve travelled to the past before, but that turned out to be a predestination paradox in one timeline. The changes I caused when I travelled back were actually the way the timeline went the first time, which is a slight boost to the idea of this spell moving me from one world line to another since that spell worked differently than this one.” Sunset brightened a little at that, but Twilight continued, “On the other side of the argument, Zecora’s magic in the changeling world told her…” Twilight tried to remember the exact phrasing she had used. “...that we were the real ones? Or that their timeline wasn’t the real one? That it ‘should not be’? Something like that.”
Despite that ominous pronouncement, Sunset actually relaxed slightly. “You’re… actually going to sit here and calmly discuss it with me, aren’t you? Whether or not you should attempt to maybe destroy my world? Only you, Twilight.” She shook her head, with a slightly disbelieving smile.
Twilight flinched. “Well, it’s not quite the same as possibly destroying and replacing a world that Tirek is in the process of incinerating, certainly.” Waving a hoof at the map, she continued, “Do you want to tell me what happened here? Equestria isn’t dying like the other timelines, but it still looks like something went wrong.”
A look of pain flickered across Sunset’s face, but her voice was steady as she answered, “Tirek killed Princess Celestia and Princess Luna before he was defeated.”
There was a gasp from Spike, and Twilight hugged him again as she responded shakily, “But… the sun and the moon?”
“Princess Cadence takes care of that, supported by the rest of the Element Bearers and the Crystal Heart.”
“Princess Cadence is the Element of Magic?” Spike blurted out.
“No, that’s me,” Sunset replied. “Cadence is Laughter.”
Twilight blinked. That actually fit surprisingly well. Making other ponies happy was just such a Cadence thing to do. It was hard to guess at Sunset’s exact past in this world, but being a student (failed or not) of Celestia seemed probable. Twilight suggested hesitantly, “It seems like changing the timeline to bring them back would be something you’d be happy about then.”
“If that’s what you were suggesting, sure,” Sunset agreed. “I might not have had a problem with, say, changing the timeline on the day they died. Everypony would have lost a day’s memories, but been pretty much the same.” She fixed Twilight with a sharp stare. “This is changing everypony’s memories back as far as when you got your cutie mark. That’s long enough that most ponies would be so different that they wouldn’t even really be the same pony. That’s not even including all the ponies more than a few years younger than you. Like Cadence and your brother’s little filly. Princess Celestia wouldn’t want me to prioritise her own life over all her little ponies' lives.”
Twilight sat stunned. Of course the butterfly effect over such a long time would cause different ponies to be born. The idea of this timeline’s Shining and Cadence having a little filly (a few months ahead of her timeline) gave her a concrete image of somepony who would be removed from history if she changed the timeline. And that would not only be repeated for countless others, it had been repeated countless times every time she had changed the timeline up to this! The frankly crazy idea of using Magic of Mass Destruction to kill Starlight by outright destroying everything at Flight Camp would cause less death than simply continuing to reset every time her attempts to stop her failed!
And Sunset wasn’t even finished talking. “You said your zebra friend thought these worlds weren’t ‘real’. That might be a tempting way to label the world when you’re losing a war, but while we’re mourning the loss of Celestia and Luna here, we’re doing pretty well otherwise. I think I’ll take this ‘unreal’ existence over non-existence. Like your world, Princess Luna was rehabilitated, and Discord, Sombra and Tirek were defeated. The map even sent me and uh… you? your alternate? Anyway, sent us to your friend Applejack’s farm to help her with those FlimFlam guys.”
“I think you missed one,” interrupted Spike helpfully. “What about the changelings?”
“There was never an invasion,” answered Sunset. “Long story, but during the weeks of Nightmare Moon’s endless night, one of the ponies who travelled with me on the search for the Elements - and who became one of my close friends who would go on to become one of the Bearers of the Elements - was a ‘unicorn’ who called herself Crystal.”
“You… reformed Chrysalis? She became an Element Bearer?” asked Twilight in amazement.
Sunset replied bluntly, “You reformed Discord.”
“Touché.”
“I just want to emphasise,” Sunset said carefully, “the way that that shows that this world isn’t strictly worse than yours in every way.”
Twilight could see the point Sunset wanted to make. ‘Should not be’ by Zecora’s definition or not, the ponies here weren’t at risk of being wiped out or conquered by evil tyrants, and there were things here that had worked out better than her timeline. And if restoring her timeline meant destroying this one, she would be personally destroying those lives without even the defence that they would have suffered or died even without her interference.
“Here’s my offer then,” Sunset announced. “Stay with us for the moment. We certainly wouldn’t refuse the help of another alicorn here, and in the meantime we put all our resources at your disposal to find a solution to the time-travelling problem that leaves everypony happy. When we find a solution, you should still end up back at the moment you left, so how long it takes isn’t even an issue.” Sunset held out a hoof to Twilight. “I won’t sugarcoat it. You’ll be trusting that I can convince everypony else to trust you, and that’s not a small thing to ask. If you stay until we know it’s safe to our world though, I think I’ve worked out an easy no-risk way to win against Starlight on the next try. What do you say?”
Twilight looked at the outstretched hoof. She was pretty sure it was a genuine offer on Sunset’s part, but all it would take was one pony who didn’t trust her to destroy the spell. A pony with a child who might cease to have ever existed if Twilight cast the spell? Or really anypony worried Twilight might erase most of their lives from history. It was even possible that determined research would discover only that she had a stark choice between destroying this universe and allowing her original universe to remain non-existent. In which case, would that mistrust even be wrong? In fact, the spell even remaining in existence was a threat to this universe in that case, wasn’t it? There were sensible arguments for casting the spell immediately and for destroying it immediately! That was honestly just completely unfair and ridiculous!
Twilight slowly became aware of sounds outside the door. Looking up into Sunset’s eyes, Twilight could see she had made the same realisation and was practically willing Twilight to agree before somepony else entered and complicated the negotiations. Her hoof remained stretched out, waiting for Twilight to take it.
Time slowed to a crawl as thoughts swirled in Twilight’s head. There hadn’t been enough time to think about all the possibilities! There were so many ways this could go, and it all depended on the choice she made in this moment. Every choice seemed to have an interpretation where it risked or outright caused the deaths of worlds, but making no choice was no relief from that!
The door clicked open, and a decision had to be made.
And if there really were such things as world lines, then on a world line very close to this one, Twilight reached out and…
...bumped hooves with Sunset. She would trust that there was time enough to find a way to ensure the safety of both worlds.
...torched Star Swirl’s spell to ashes, preserving this world forever at the cost of ever being able to find her way home.
...cast the spell, abandoning Sunset’s world to whatever its fate was, and…
…planning to destroy Flight Camp in a blast of Mass Destruction so that only a single extra timeline would end before everything was fixed.
...determined to oppose Starlight for as long as it took to fix the timeline.
...deciding to try talking Starlight out of her revenge.
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That was a good exploration of a big ethical problem - in the episode Twilight was "retconning" timelines that the ponies that themselves lived on them would risk the change...
But and a neutral one? That turns things far more complicated...
And it was nice to see a timeline with nice (or reformed) Sunset.
I think that, no matter the decision, Twilight would always wonder if her choice was the right one...
Very intriguing concept! I honestly would love to see you do a sequel where Twilight takes Sunset's deal, but I admit I'm biased towards multiversal theory!
Well done. Honestly this leaves me hungry for more. The info you dropped about how things went differently than in Canon make me want to explore this new timeline a bit more. I crave worldbuilding!
Pretty nice. But I never bought Niven's scenario: people aren't subatomic particles. Although who we are can easily be changed by events, the decisions we make at a particular instant in time are determined by our memories and experiences and the beliefs they have shaped up to that point, and aside from situations where a coin-flip is necessary, are going to be relatively deterministic. If nothing _earlier_ was any different, Julius Caesar is going to cross that bridge on the Rubicon, because he's goddamn Julius Caesar. And Twilight isn't going to murder a bunch of foals and fillies.
Could they possibly create a small temporary soulbond or something between Sunset and Twilight, one that would get destroyed if the world got destroyed. Then send Twilight back to save Celestia and Luna. That way they will know if the world does get overwritten and even if it does she has made a better world for the ponies to live in.
Future speculations aside. A very nice story overall.
Interesting story and nice reference to Bill and Ted. If only all time travel stories were that silly/irreverent/happy-go-lucky. Zecora's words suggest altered timeline rather than jumping to other timelines (I remember DBZ did that), and stopping the end of Equestria is definitely something to be avoided. Figures that Twilight would have a moment to breathe only in a pretty stable world (rather than being chased by monsters). Always nice to see Sunset too, though sounds like she isn't an alicorn in this timeline either (with Cadence handling everything).
I haven't read the original story, though looking at the summary I can guess the general tone of it. Parallel universes and/or new timelines forming from every choice is either inspiring or depressing. No idea what Sunset's idea is, and short of another Twilight teleporting in to prove its different world lines rather than erasing altered timelines, no idea where they'll go from here. About the season finale, was slightly disappointed we didn't see alternate Twilight at all (and Spike of course was never born due to the disrupted rainboom). And as Sunset said, only Twilight would really, really worry about the consequences of her choice (most of the rest of the Mane Six wouldn't be familiar enough with science to worry about it). Too bad about Twilight's dilemma- everything seems fine, but one can always be paranoid (but blue peaceful map is a good sign), and she is taking a big risk of being stuck in a different timeline if anything should happen to that scroll.
6694304
Having to make a choice without a clear right answer was exactly what I wanted to portray, so I'm really glad that came across well! I definitely think you're right that whatever decision she made, she'd wonder about if it was the right one!
6694308
This story is kind of self-contained, so I'm afraid there probably won't be a continuation unless a really clever twist ending for one occurs to me. The ending where Twilight takes the deal was probably the one I liked the most too though.
6694483
I like worldbuilding, but in this case I think the story probably benefitted from trimming away a lot of what happened, and leaving just enough to imply the outline of their history. Glad you liked what you saw of it!
6694596
I really like Niven's story, but I actually agree with you that there's a few things in the interpretation taken in it that don't make a lot of sense. It's an interesting plot device though.
6694773
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Sunset's solution doesn't require any extra information than what was in the episode, so it doesn't involve any speculative magic. It's a little bit of a sideways solution though, so I half expect it to be the kind of thing people will either think of instantly or never get. I'll add the solution to the comments and the author's note in a few days if nobody gets it.
6694955
Ha ha, I couldn't write a time travelling pony story and not mention the "Wyld Stallyns".
And yes, the Niven story takes the idea to a depressing conclusion. The twist is pretty clever and different enough to the way I took the idea that it shouldn't be spoiled even after seeing my spin on it. I'd definitely recommend it to anyone who likes time travel stories.
Even if not by a large amount, the "prime" Equestria would still be in a better position; there are four alicorns instead of two (counting main!Twilight if she stayed), and Discord is more powerful than Chrysalis is. What happens if in the future, there's another threat, and this difference is tips the balance between coming out of it okay, and the world heading to yet another horrible future? The opposite could happen, where only something the alternate future has is what pulls them through, but it's a lower chance because their super-powerful beings roster is smaller and weaker.
That's not even counting the fact that there are now two Starlights that are still presumably around in this future, still intent on her (their?) original goal, just like how there are now two Twilights. Starlight is extremely dangerous, as the whole situation in the first place demonstrates, and having two of her dedicated to her goal is even worse. That's not even including the fact that one of the Starlights already has the knowledge of how to modify Starswirl's spell again, so all she would have to do is find the original scroll (assuming Tirek didn't destroy it if he went through Canterlot), or even just steal Twilight's scroll in order to start all this over again. Starlight needed to be dealt with as soon as possible, and using the scroll is the only method Twilight has to be able to find her for sure. The longer the Starlights are able to keep cascading through time, the higher the chance that they eventually create a world where she (they?) win, and then proceed to destroy all records of time travel magic to keep it that way.
For every pony in this new timeline that would be erased or had their situations worsened by choosing the original, roughly the same applies to ponies in the original timeline, so ethics do not favor one side over the other. Thus, it is most prudent to make the choice that has a lower chance of ending like one of the bad futures.
/micdrop
6695312
Starlight isn't hopping around the timeline as such during all this. I guess I could have stood to spell it out more fully during the story, but Starlight mentions in the episode that the spell brings her along with Twilight every time Twilight will try to use the spell. This is the reason Twilight realises she can take some time to plan.
It can be assumed that the next thing the Starlight Twilight just left will experience is being sent through time again the next time the spell is cast. It doesn't actually matter if Twilight spends even weeks or months developing a plan. As soon as she casts the spell again, she travels back in time and Starlight is pulled along with her.
Certainly though the story doesn't make it at all clear what would happen to Starlight if the scroll was destroyed. Twilight is supposed to be making a split-second decision which she hasn't had time to properly evaluate though, rather than a perfectly rational decision. I admit I fully expected the "destroy the scroll" and "destroy everything" choices to be questioned, and not all choices are meant to be equal.
The Starlight in the new timeline is as vulnerable to the butterfly effect as anyone else, and should have no reason to develop a time spell.
6695341
That was brilliant. I particularly liked this:
That's just really clever and thematically appropriate!
6695646
Except that the spell only pulls Starlight through when Twilight casts it; given that the show very heavily implies that there is only one timeline active at a time, and that Starlight thus cannot be in the past at the same "time" Twilight is in the future, the time traveling Starlight must be in the present if she did not use time magic to skip it, either from waiting the years or using a different time spell to fast forward. She's not "hopping" through the timelines when each different way she disrupts Rainbow changes the future course of that timeline to be those leading to the ones Twilight gets sucked into. For example, the past where Starlight convinces Dumb Bell and Hoops not to bully Fluttershy leads directly and normally to the Queen Chrysalis bad future; no additional timeline travel by Starlight is necessary.
The fact that the spell pulls Starlight from earlier in the timeline (which is the only logical possibility as to why she has no memory of the bad futures) when Twilight casts it does not nullify the fact that a future variant of the main Starlight must (unless she was killed during the intervening years somehow) exist in the present that Twilight is currently in until Twilight casts the spell. Twilight's unlimited "time to plan" only applies to Starlight stopping the rainboom in the next timeline, not any other shenanigans the present version of main Starlight gets into while Twilight is planning that could prevent her from moving to the next timeline at all. Think of it this way: from the perspective of history of the timeline the main Twilight is currently residing in, what happened to the unicorn that interfered with Rainbow Dash as a filly? She cannot have disppeared into the next timeline, because Twilight has not traveled to the next timeline, pulling Starlight with her, and there is no guarantee, from temporal mechanics alone, that Twilight will ever do so. Thus, from the perspective of the events of the timeline that Twilight is in, Starlight did not get pulled out of it by Twilight.
As for the topic of alternate Starlight possibly deciding to use time travel, the main Starlight already showed that there is no need for previous time travel for her to come to the decision to utilize it, and any number of ways other than what happened in the main timeline could give her the idea, including a Starlight that has already done it.
6694308 I like the idea of the multiverse as well! I also think that Twilight would learn about the multiverse and develop a spelled she could visit those alternate universes like she does with Canterot High. (Think: a room with a large number of mirror portals, each leading to a different world.)
Also, the theory of world lines as Sunset talks about (and the corresponding theory in real life) are completely unrelated to theories of time travel.
Let's say that the world line hypothesis is true, so that there is a different universe for every choice that anything makes. This is irrelevant to time travel, as if one time traveled, you would still be on the same world line as before, because choosing to time travel is one of the choices that your world line includes you making. If the time travel rules are multiverse, then said world line's universe split into two universes, but the second universe is still within the same world line. If the time travel rules are single timeline, then said world line's universe got replaced with the new one.
Multiverse type time travel does not move you between already existing timelines; it creates completely new ones by creating an additional branch, one that is impossible to reach from differing choices alone, from a point in the past. This is true even if the world line hypothesis is also true, because they're separate phenomena, "nested" within one another.
An exploration of time travel ethics. At the end of the day, it's all very subjective, and whether or not someone enjoys this story will probably come down to how disposable alternate timelines are to them.
Aah, it's based off of that story!!
I like this story a lot. Like KingMoriarty said, it's very subjective, and I for one greatly enjoyed seeing a very different, but non-apocalyptic and still ultimately hopeful, Equestria.
Also, the multiple ending thing you put in is perfect, and a nice call-back to the original story.
You, my good person, have earned a fave!
(Sunset was right, though: her timeline and everyone in it has decohered from Twilight's universe greatly, and everything's probably different as a result of the split.
And yes, I am a shameless Theoretical Physics nerd.)
So, we know:
1. Timelines can be changed (C)
2. Twilight is from a different timeline (TW = T)
3. Either that timeline exists or not (TL = (T || F))
A. If it exists: then changing the past does not destroy Timelines (C !=> !TL => TW)
B. If it does not exist: then changing the past destroys Timelines (C => !TL) but that not all things from the timeline are destroyed (C !=> !TW)
4. Timelines create a finite number of objects or beings during existence (O >= {0...N})
A. If the timeline is destroyed; some number of those things are destroyed, but never more than was created (C=> !TL(OD({0}, {N})) where TL(OD(x,y)) is a function describing the destruction of objects and takes arguments for minimum and maximum number of destroyed objects, for a given timeline)
B; Accepting that objects from other timelines in a given timeline destroyed may be destroyed as well
C. If the timeline is not destroyed; then no objects are destroyed (TL(OD(x,y)) where x = 0, y = 0)
5. Because Timelines can create things that influence other timelines (see 2), and the fate of said timeline does not influence those things (see 3) and the number of objects destroyed by timelines is never positive over the life of the timeline (see 4); creating timelines has a non-zero chance of creating objects that persist longer than the timeline. (TL => O >= 0)
6. Objects from timelines can be counted altogether as the Total Objects (TO)
A; Obviously, objects never created can never be destroyed (TO >=0)
7. Because Timelines have a non-zero chance of creating objects, regardless of the fate of the timeline, (see 5) and that all timelines never have more destruction than they can create (see 4A, 4B) all timelines must either end with some number of objects persisting outside of the given timeline, or all objects from that timeline destroyed (TO = TO + {0...N})
8. Because all timelines either Add objects to the Total Object Count, or Add nothing; Timelines are a positive effect on Total Object Count. (C => TL => (TO = TO + {0..N}))
9. Because Persisting objects can create more timelines (see 2) and that creating timelines is a positive effect on Total Object Count (see 8), and that destruction of timelines has no net negative effect on Total Object Count (see 6, 6a, 4a, 4b) then it can be said that creation of timelines leads, in all cases, is divergent. (C => TL => C => TL ... C=TL)
Thus it can be stated that, under the above rules, going back and creating a new timeline always leads to a positive effect on number and variance of living beings. You can thus ignore the ethical problem of lost lives vs newly created lives.
Oooh, I like this timeline a lot! I'm actually curious to learn more about it.
6695716
A lot of Sunset's talk about worldlines, she bases on the fact that in Twilight's story (i.e. in the episode itself), Twilight isn't sucked into the past when Starlight casts the spell, but when Twilight touches the scroll afterwards. The moment Starlight travelled back should have changed the timeline, so at that point there is a reasonable argument to be made that the two timelines existed at the same time.
6696356
There is a more depressing aspect to the multiverse idea as well - all those dying Equestria alternate worlds would continue to exist as well! I wonder if Twilight and company would feel compelled to save them as well if they could travel there at will?
6697877
Very true! The main reason I wrote the story was as an aversion of the way alternate universes are usually portrayed as expendable in fiction, but Twilight's choice at the end wouldn't seem like much of a choice for anyone who continued to see Sunset's world as expendable.
6698019
I'm glad you liked the multiple-ending thing. I was a bit nervous of throwing something so stylistically unusual into my first story (even as a reference to Niven's story), so it's really great to hear that it worked properly.
6698669
I wouldn't agree that the ethics of the situation can be reduced to numbers. Rather a lot of people when presented with a "trolley problem", whereby they are presented with a choice of killing one person to save a larger number will balk at that solution. Likewise, the actual choice here is presented as "choose to end the lives of everyone in the current timeline to try to restore your own".
I'm also not convinced you've made the case in general. Your argument seems like there's no reason it couldn't be used equally to justify changing the timeline from any timeline to any other timeline. That includes, say, changing the original timeline to the complete desolation timeline.
6698673
Hmm... something interesting that didn't come up in the story.
This was how I imagined Chrysalis' disguise. I had it in mind that they restored Luna without her identity as a changeling becoming known, but by that time she had genuinely become friends with the others through shared adversity and discovered she rather enjoyed being liked for herself. They only discovered she was a changeling later. Probably in some dramatic fashion!
6698886
The world line theory Sunset mentioned, a concept of infinite worlds that branch off of every possible decision, has nothing to do with time travel, even the type of time travel that has multiple timelines. They both create completely new timelines, but the way they do so and the types of timelines they result in are completely different. Time travel is fundamentally unable to switch you between world line type timelines, because only differing choices from within a word line can affect it, not from without. Thus, world line theory is unrelated to the dilemma Twilight is in, because even if world lines are true, then by definition, none of her decisions can take her out of her own world line, even by time traveling, because choosing to time travel and how to time travel are decisions under the definition of world line theory. Even if she could create new timelines via multiverse type time travel, it would merely mean that every new timeline created in that manner would also be a part of the same world line.
Also, the episode showed that Twilight and Starlight were inextricably linked in terms of the exit point, as determined by when Twilight travels back. No matter when Twilight got sent back, Starlight would get sent back to the exact same point in time. That means that Starlight didn't start changing the past until after Twilight got sucked through the portal after her, because Starlight explicitly wanted her to be there when she did it. If neither Twilight nor Spike had ever activated the scroll, Starlight would have been stuck in limbo forever.
The few seconds of Pinkie Pie showing up after Twilight and Spike entered the portal means that the time spell takes a non-zero amount of time to resolve (either after sucking all the participants in, after the spell is reset, or both), because Twilight and Starlight did not come back to Pinkie walking into the room; ergo, there must have been a delay at some point. Thus, even if there was only one timeline, Pinkie would still stroll in there and not see anyone, because she's either there before the spell has resolved and sent Twilight and Starlight into the past, or she's there after Twilight and Starlight restored the original timeline, and the spell had not spit them back out yet.
6698886
I did not say: You should go back and fix your timeline. I only said that you should always go back: Even in your timeline, as it allows for infinite timelines.
Unlike the trolly problem, in this scenario, going back allows, by definition, you ti recreate and save everyone. You just need to create timelines wherein you introduce more persistent objects.
On phone so not as well written as earlier. Will elaborate tommorow
6698886 I think she would l. I think they ALL would.
6698886 I knew that. And I think that Celesta, Luna, Candence, and everyone that was shown as not a self-centered twit (aka Blueblood, Jet Set, Upper Crust, Spoiled Rich aka Spoiled Rotten/B**ch/ Diamond Tiara's mother, and Svengalop) would be unable to sleep at night knowing that some alternate versions of themselves were suffering like that. It would be WAR.
I can't prove it, but I think part of why every timeline Starlight created was worse than the earlier is because noone is supposed to mess with time. Altering it leads to worse outcomes overall, just like messing with Cutie Marks is a really bad idea.
Anyhow, after witnessing this world, Twilight has all the more reason to be pissed. Because now Starlight forced her into making a Sadistic Choice.
6698669
So are you saying it's ethical to destroy 1999 people as long as you first create 2000 people?
An interesting concept. In Twilight's place, I'd accept Sunset's offer provisionally... but make sure to keep the scroll very safe and be prepared to teleport back to the map very quickly if necessary. With two Twilights, a Sunset Shimmer, even (probably) a Starlight Glimmer available to help, it should be quite possible to find a way to maintain both timelines, perhaps even find a way to regularly move back and forth between them, to the benefit of both...
6701004
In a world where you can go back in time to create the same system that gives rise to those exact 1999 people and still have the 2000 you created? Yes.
This isn't the trolley problem; this is a cause-effect chain. Specifically one with infinities and effects that persist their causes never happening.
6699068
6699090
I can't say either of these interpretations make sense to me even after being re-explained. I'm quite happy to see that though. The story was supposed to be about making a choice where there were no good answers, so it wouldn't have worked as well if everyone who read it agreed on one obviously correct interpretation.
6700882
That's quite an interesting way of thinking about it as well.
It really was a sadistic choice too. On the subject of tropes though, the one I was thinking of was Expendable Alternate Universe, which at one point on tvtropes was called... All The Myriad Ways.
6701012
That would probably have been the choice I'd have been leaning towards as well, though it could easily turn out to be a bad idea. "I have to sleep sometime" would probably be the biggest objection to it running through my head while deciding.
6702225
Twilight has to sleep sometime, but Twilight also has one extremely trustworthy ally - Spike. She and Spike can sleep in shifts, each guarding the scroll while the other sleeps. Yes, a sufficiently determined effort from Sunset will still have a chance of damaging the scroll, or alternatively this timeline's Discord could almost certainly pull it off if he gets reformed... but if original-timeline Starlight could create the scroll, then so can Twilight, given enough time.
It's not a completely risk-free strategy, but it does seem to be the lowest-risk strategy.
An intriguing tale. I would've been quite interested to see...another eventuality. Certainly something better than the utter stupidity we got.
I like to see a story where cosmological nihilism works out civilly. Have a moustache
DAMN YOU WIBBLY-WOBBLY TIMEY-WHIMEY!!!!!! DAMN YOU!!!!!
6715374
I like stories where there are no real villains. A conflict where both sides have good motives makes for an interesting story.
6719985
Might have been too cute with the Fermat reference, since I got very few attempts to work out Sunset's solution!
I've probably left that long enough now anyway, so here it is.
Spoilers for Sunset's proposed solution:
Sunset observed from Twilight's story that when Twilight returned to the past, they moved in space as well as time, and that since there weren't past versions of themselves there, Starlight had to ensure that the rainboom was prevented by their actions on each trip.
Sunset concluded that travelling back to just before the rainboom but to a location where history couldn't be interfered with would restore the timeline no matter what Starlight did while there. The location she planned to use was the location the Crystal Empire would return to, on the basis that nopony would go there before it returned, and after it returned any changes they could possibly make would be covered by the city.
Hello there! So, not sure if you noticed, but we seem to have independently written similar stories. Mine is called "The Reality I Choose" and one of my readers pointed your story out to me. It's really neat to see how someone else handled the idea.
On that note, I'm putting up a blog post that mentions this story, so hopefully you'll get a few more folks reading this one as well.
Thanks for the read and keep up the good writing.
6722698
I did notice, and in fact I think I got quite a few extra readers from being at the top of the "similar to this story" panel on your story.
I didn't comment on your story because it felt a bit too much like fishing for attention, but I also enjoyed seeing how someone else handled the idea.
6722766
Oh good, that makes me feel better!
Yeah, I'm just glad you're not bitter or upset or thought I had taken your idea.
Had I seen your story first, I probably wouldn't have published mine. As it is, I suppose it's just a happy coincidence.
"That might be a tempting way to label the world when you’re losing a war"
...That... is a very interesting idea that I'd not thought of before. If that were the case, the universe doesn't have to have a single "right" path; the paste just has to detect "these people are timeline travellers" or whatever. And, yeah; with how much uncertainly there is about how time travel works, Zecora could easily not be certain... and as you say, with how badly things are going for her and the ponies there, it might indeed be preferable to her to say that the timeline isn't right (as opposed to the result of Twilight leaving being Chrysalis blinking in momentary puzzlement and then continuing the attack). Thanks!
Oh, and also a very good point about Twilight not being first pulled back immediately after Starlight casts the spell.
6722766
6722776
I'm one of those sent over by The Hat Man, and, I must say, I'm quite glad that you did both post your stories. :)
6721628
Hm. I didn't think that Twilight could control the drift in space, though.
I think I've got the simplest possible idea for Sunset to give Twilight: For Twilight to do exactly what she did canonically. Take this as an unseen last loop before Starlight's redemption.
6723527
I rather liked that argument too. It didn't really matter all that much to Sunset that Zecora thought her world wasn't real - it felt real enough that the difference became academic.
As for the spoilered bit:
We see in the episode that Starlight was able to choose to go to her hometown instead of Cloudsdale, so even though Sunset and Twilight hadn't known about that, it's not an unreasonable guess that it was possible. Sunset is also intending that they would spend some time examining the spell beforehand, and is presuming that they'd be able to figure out how to use the spell in that way.
6723897
That is definitely the simplest answer, and I did intend the fact that it was one of the possible choices Twilight made at the end to make the story fit as a possible unseen last loop before the finale we saw!
I don't think it's as guaranteed for success as the answer I gave to a comment below though, and which I've now added to the author's note as well.
6724771
Oh, hm, I'd forgotten about that; thanks.
6725257
6724771
The spell was also based on another spell, so they could simply use it as a template to create a new one—that might be quicker and easier than learning how to vary the location, and would provide a wider range of options with what they can make the spell do. For instance, they could add built-in protection spells. Or they could make it call Starlight and then immediately send her back.
6760578
Hm, perhaps a possibility, I suppose.
(Sorry; I'm in something of a hurry at the moment.)
6700132 can you make a sequel to this where Twilight and her friends visit this world?
6701012 Unless this timeline already existed in the first place.
6782651
I think the most important part of the conclusion of the story is that I don't say outright whether or not such a thing is even possible, or whether there really was a stark choice between the existence of this universe or the original one. Writing a sequel would have to confirm that one way or the other, which I feel might detract from this story.
In addition, there wasn't really any ongoing crisis in this universe especially so that I could make it comparable in stability to the original one. Writing a sequel with a crisis in this universe then would definitely detract from this story by making the choice at the end less of an equal one.
That only really leaves the option of writing a story without any real conflict where the characters from the two universes meet and talk. If I ever think of a really clever hook to base that kind of conversation around, that might be worth a story, but other than that I likely won't.
That said, I'm quite pleased that the story struck enough of a chord with you that you came back to it a month later to ask about a sequel. Sorry I have to disappoint!
6782799 what about a story where the ponies from normal equestria try to help those other worlds where the bad guy was victorious?
6782799 anyone up for an "unofficial" sequel then?
6783503
That actually is a kind of interesting hook to write a story on! Wow, that would be a gigantic undertaking though, with so many characters and worlds to deal with! I have to admit that in terms of sequels, I'd have been thinking of another short story if I was going to write one.
6783509
I certainly have no objections to anyone writing an unofficial sequel.
6784864 Try to make that the next big thing that you make.
6784864 Ok everyone! He gave you the go ahead!
Between Doppler Effect and The Hat Man? No clue who's is better. I'm ignoring writing styles to point out...
...I just read the same story twice with different points of view each time.
...one story hurt my head more than the other yet both have similar sounding time theories.
...while the other story was thought out; this story is like a gun-slinger. It knows what it's doing and makes the idea clear to everyone around. My usually preferred style.
6786804
I made a big effort to have as many of the background details as possible be directly contributing to the philosophical debate. I'm really glad to hear that worked well for you!