440 - Alignment Check
Twilight fought down a surge of panic at the lhaksharut’s announcement, knowing she had only seconds to act.
An axiomatic numinous field. Those words immediately sent her back to her time on Everglow, when she’d studied that world’s magic beneath the watchful eye of an old earth pony wizard by the name of Under Score. He’d taught her a great deal, ranging from the differences between arcane and divine spellcasting to the nine thematic categories that all spells were catalogued under, such as conjurations or illusions or necromancy. And one of his lessons had dealt with what one particular type of spells could do…
“I still don’t understand why you don’t want me to learn that ‘infernal healing’ spell,” huffed Twilight, frowning at Under Score. The old wizard was normally quite generous with sharing the spells that he knew – at least among those ponies who had proven themselves to be both competent and trustworthy, which Twilight felt sure she had – but there were some that he flatly refused to teach her, and this was one of them. “Wouldn’t it be better if I knew one of the few curative spells that you don’t need to be a divine spellcaster to use?”
“Clerics and other spellcasters of faith can, in fact, cast that spell too, Miss Sparkle.” Under Score always insisted on a degree of formality when he was lecturing her, which he apparently was now. “They simply tend to eschew it in favor of more effectual spells that utilize the life-restoring properties of positive energy as a method of healing, and you should eschew it so as not to become comfortable with casting spells that call upon profane forces. There’s a reason why the name of the spell is ‘infernal’ healing.”
“But it’s still a healing spell,” protested Twilight. “It helps people. How exactly does that use ‘profane forces’?”
“It’s not in the effect where such energies typically leave their mark,” explained Under Score. Looking at Twilight, he canted his head and started walking, indicating that he wanted her to follow him. It was only when they were back in his office at the Seekers Academy that he continued. “The infernal healing spell leaves only the faintest trace of malevolence upon those it’s used on,” he admitted once they were both inside and he’d closed the door. “That mainly manifests in it leaving behind scars rather than unblemished flesh, since any lingering aura from the spell itself fades away in a matter of seconds.”
Twilight’s ears perked up at that, wondering if she’d just won the argument. “Then-”
“But even if the recipient of the spell is at no risk of moral corruption, the same cannot be said for the caster,” noted Under Score pointedly. “Miss Sparkle, do you remember what you told me about your native world’s magic? About how, while its utilization is a physical process, an individual’s disposition – if maintained at a substantial level for a sufficient duration – can color the effects that they’re trying to produce?
“That’s oversimplifying it a bit, but-”
“What I’m describing to you now is exactly the opposite. Rather than your state of mind affecting the magic you use, using spells like infernal healing can affect your state of mind, the same way that what you take into your body can affect your health.” Opening a drawer in his desk, Under Score took out a vial filled with a powdery yellow substance, placing it in front of Twilight. “Powdered sulfur,” he noted. “Even a little irritates the skin and eyes, inflames the lungs and throat, and upsets the stomach.” He then opened one of his saddlebags, withdrawing an apple and a thin wedge of cheese, placing them alongside the vial. “My lunch,” he explained, before giving Twilight a pointed look. “Now, which one would you rather eat?”
Now it was Twilight’s turn to frown, finding the simplistic analogy a bit insulting. “I understand the principle,” she noted testily. “It’s the application that I’m confused about. A lot of the spells you’ve taught me have been attack magic, but I don’t feel like attacking anyone. What makes spells like infernal healing different?”
Under Score didn’t answer her immediately, instead putting the vial of sulfur away and repacking his lunch before replying. “In theory, they shouldn’t be,” he said at last. “The thought-forms that we use to store magical energies in our minds are built to shape and direct those energies when we draw upon them, only utilizing them according to the highly-specific arrangements into which they’ve been composed.”
“But…?” prompted Twilight.
“But nothing is one hundred percent efficient,” sighed Under Score. “There’s always some energy lost in the transfer, and where do you think that goes?”
Twilight’s eyes widened. “Into us?”
Under Score nodded. “Us, and also the surrounding environment. For the most part, however, the thought-forms we use are built to provide outlets to handle the safe diffusion of lost energy, which is why casting a sleep spell won’t make you drowsy, or casting a shield spell won’t make you feel defensive. But there are certain energies that we’re more sensitive to than others. Are you familiar with the concept of numinous modes?”
When Twilight shook her head, he kept going. “There are certain planes of existence where particular metaphysical concepts are less abstract than they are here. Where ‘good’ and ‘evil’ and similar ideals such as ‘order’ and ‘chaos’ aren’t merely abstract concepts, but fundamental modes of existence, as important as gravity or magnetism. For whatever reason, the energies of these realms resonate strongly with the spiritual – or ‘numinous’ – aspect of sapient beings. The result is that repeated exposure to those energies, such as via spells that make use of them, can start to affect an individual’s temperament, changing who they are in ways far deeper than any mere physical alteration.”
Twilight’s eyebrows had been steadily rising during Under Score’s explanation. “Wait, so you’re saying that people are only good or bad because they’ve become…saturated with these planar forces?”
To her great relief, Under Score shook his head. “While that idea has yet to be conclusively disproven, the evidence that our best sages have gathered suggests that isn’t the case. Rather, it seems to be a case of like calling to like. If you’re already a good person, then you’ll have a greater inclination for planar energies that match your moral alignment. We think that’s why, presuming you haven’t pledged yourself to any particular deity during the course of your life, your soul goes to whatever plane of existence best matches your metaphysical gradient after you die.”
“Or you could just refuse to go,” murmured Twilight uncomfortably, remembering what had happened to her when she’d met an untimely demise during the Elemental Bleeds. Soft Whisper, Everglow’s goddess of death, had attempted to shepherd her toward the afterlife. But Twilight, not wanting to leave, had clung to the living world with everything she’d had, becoming a ghost. It wasn’t an experience she was eager to repeat, and not just because dying had been awful; the highly-negative feelings that had prompted her to refuse to pass on – intense fear, overwhelming loss, profound regret, and others like them – had been all that sustained her as a ghost, since it required profound emotional resonance for a disembodied soul to will itself to remain in the physical world. But those same intensely negative feelings had slowly started to warp her personality, which in hindsight hadn’t been surprising; you couldn’t remain in a perpetual state of intense trauma and not have it twist who you were. Just the thought of anything like that happening again was enough to snuff out Twilight’s curiosity about the infernal healing spell.
Her feelings must have shown on her face, because Under Score gave her a concerned look. “In the interest of full disclosure,” he said slowly. “I should mention that confirmed cases of individuals whose identity was altered because they used too much numinous magic are extremely few and far between. The conventional wisdom is that, so long as they’re used in moderation, the chances of your metaphysical alignment being altered due to casting those spells is virtually nil.” He gave her a kindly smile then, dropping his professorial mien. “I just didn’t want to take the chance that you might end up being the exception that proves the rule.”
“No, it’s alright.” Twilight couldn’t fight the shudder that ran down her spine at the thought. “If there’s any chance that spells like that could cause some sort of…of spiritual contamination, they’re definitely not something I want to use. The magic of friendship is special because it’s something that’s created by what my friends and I all feel for each other, not the other way around.”
Under Score nodded, looking satisfied. “I understand, though I’ll repeat what I said about moderate amounts of numinous magic being safe to use. Still, I’m glad to see that you have a healthy respect for what such spells can do now. Therefore…” He stood up as he spoke, walking to a nearby shelf before withdrawing a book, opening it to a particular page and placing it on the desk in front of her. “Here’s a copy of the infernal healing spell. If you want to scribe it into your spellbook, you’re welcome to.”
Her eyes widening, Twilight glanced from the spell to the old stallion and back again. “So this…it was all a test?”
“More like an evaluation,” admitted Under Score with a shrug, though Twilight didn’t miss the way the corners of his lips turned upward. “I hope that doesn’t offend you.”
Still staring at the spell, Twilight shook her head. “Testing their students is what teachers are supposed to do. I’m just…I know you said that almost no one is changed just by using these, but if there’s even a chance of it happening, why would anyone ever take that risk?”
“You already know why.” Under Score tapped the open book as he sat back down. “As you said, this is still a healing spell. If someone you cared about was dying, and there was no other curative magic available, what would you do?” He leaned back in his chair when Twilight didn’t answer. “Others have different uses, such as summoning planar denizens of matching metaphysical gradients, or even attacking those of different spiritual persuasions.”
“Wait, attacking?” This time Twilight’s frown was one of incomprehension. “How could spells like this be used to attack? I thought you said the only danger was that they could change someone’s personality gradually over time?”
“That’s the only danger to the person using them, Miss Sparkle. But there are certain spells that deliberately concentrate a particular numinous gradient to such a high degree that, when cast, cause severe spiritual damage to everyone in the local area who doesn’t share the same metaphysical inclination. I once saw a colleague of mine use such a spell, unleashing a powerful burst of axiomatic, or ‘lawful,’ force with a single word against a group of over two dozen gem gnoll marauders that had surrounded us, since he felt certain that none of them were of that particular persuasion whereas we all were.”
Twilight wasn’t sure that she wanted to know, but couldn’t stop herself from asking anyway. “What happened to them?”
“One of them, the leader, was tough enough that he was able to stay standing, although he looked like he’d just taken a heavy blow to the head. Three or four of the others were paralyzed, at least for a short time.”
Just from his tone of voice Twilight could tell that there was more to the story. “And the rest?”
“They were all killed instantly.”
Twilight had, in the time since that conversation, never tried to measure the “spiritual alignment” of any of her friends. Just the thought of doing so made her feel uncomfortable, like she was contemplating reading their diaries without their knowledge. But now…now she wished she had, if only so that she knew exactly who was in danger from what the lhaksharut was going to do. Pinkie would definitely be affected, she knew, and so would Discord, but as for everyone else here, she couldn’t be sure. Was Spike “lawful” in temperament? Was Fluttershy? Was Princess Celestia?
Gesturing and chanting so quickly that she almost bit her tongue, Twilight poured her alicorn magic into her dispelling spell, hoping that she’d be able to finish casting it before the lhaksharut deployed its axiomatic numinous field. Hoping that she’d be able to negate it. Hoping that she wouldn’t have to find out which of her friends were lawful by watching the ones who weren’t die right in front of her…
A second later both her and the lhaksharut’s spells went off.
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Well, if you want debate. q:3
I'd think Twilight, Applejack, and Spike are lawful. So are the princesses. They all like rules. A lot.
Fluttershy and Rarity are neutral (good) since they both care more about helping than anything else.
Rainbow Dash, Pinkie, and Discord are chaotic. Rainbow always wants to do the 'awesome' thing in the moment which is basically chaos at its best.
10057564
I disagree about Pinky. She is a penny who is extremely concerned about her personal ethics. She has the pinky promise for a reason.
Okay...that spell sounds pretty damn powerful for a being dedicated to exterminating chaos and those aligned to it, regardless of whether they're good or evil though I doubt that matters so long as any chaos-aligned beings are destroyed.
It felt odd for Twilight to doubt Celestia's alignment or even those of her friends for a moment there though I'll chalk that up to the heat of the moment and her overall fear of losing her friends so I'll cut her some extra slack.
Still, the bit about Twilight almost biting her tongue mid-chant was amusing and makes me wonder if any DM's used that to narrate the results of a failed Roll for spellcasting. And speaking on rolls, here's hoping Twilight pulls off a good one.
"Except in the Forgotten Realms, because the gods there are a bunch of assholes, even the good ones."
Roll high on that counterspell attempt Twi...
Laws, neutrality
Chaotic insanity.
Powerful forces
With few recourses.
Now a race
Between either face.
Will harmony win?
Or shall Lawful judge sin?
Who was it that said they got a NAT 20 on Dispel Magic in the Planar Hells, which caused a magical item to be destroyed on a further D100? Im pretty sure this guy is a magical golem, an item?
Pinkie Pinks at the speed of Script, which is just as Pink as she needs to be at that moment.
10057564 I figured the debate would happen anyway, so I thought "why not play it up?" Everyone has their own opinion about what constitutes alignments, particularly for preexisting characters from series that don't use the usual 3x3 alignment grid, so it always seems to devolve into a point of mutual disagreement. It's like D&D's own version of arguing about politics or religion.
10057682 Is that in accordance with the alignment you gave her for A Dangerous Sparkle?
10057708 Higher-level spells can do things like that, if you're able to use them. Of course, things like saving throws and spell resistance (if you have the latter) still apply, but good luck there. That said, yeah, axiomatic effects only judge along the lawful-neutral-chaotic axis, ignoring any issues of good or evil.
Bear in mind, Twilight was basically wondering where her friends would fall on that same axis. She's sure that they're all Good-aligned (well, notwithstanding Discord), but while she's sure about Pinkie being Chaotic, the rest might be Neutral or Lawful, and that's an important distinction to make for certain spells like the one they're all likely about to be hit with (if she can't stop it).
As for biting her tongue, it wouldn't surprise me if a bad roll was described that way!
10058399
I did not spend much time considering that while working on their abilities.
10057779 You know, I honestly don't know when this whole "hating on the Realms because the gods judge the dead based on religious allegiance and not alignment" thing became so popular, but it's always struck me as ill-considered. Leaving aside issues of whether or not the Realms are their own cosmology or simply a local part of a greater cosmology (something that changes between editions), or how the gods themselves aren't the ones who mandate that (it's set up by Ao, though this is implied rather than explicit), and that this has precedent in real-world theologies (for whatever that's worth when judging an RPG system's cosmology), this is in no way some sort of betrayal of the alignment system.
I've seen people rage against the idea that Good-aligned deities would allow for good-aligned people to be assigned to eternal torment in the afterlife simply for not dedicating themselves to a particular deity, claiming that necessarily runs counter to the idea of what it means to be objectively (under the alignment system) Good. That's something that strikes me as (if I'm being polite) completely wrongheaded. Even if you hold that this is a local deviation from the wider "go to the plane that matches your alignment when you die" background, the idea that this system is at all unjust is nonsensical; everyone is playing by the same rules, everyone knows what the rules are, and everyone is free to make their own choices with regard to it; the gods want everyone to know how it works, because that's a big part of how they gain more worshipers. No one is being deceived, duped, or otherwise unjustly manipulated out of their afterlife (the closest that we ever see about that comes with regard to Cyric trying to manipulate the system in a variety of ways in Prince of Lies and Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad, and spoiler alert: it doesn't go over very well). The same way people can choose their own alignment, they can choose who to worship. If they don't faithfully adhere to a god (let alone one who offers a pleasant afterlife), then it's no different than if they choose to be Evil-aligned and end up in an awful place after death. It's on them, not the gods or anyone else.
10057796 Which indeed. It's quite literally a roll of the dice now! ...which, ironically, seems awfully chaotic when you think about it.
10057990 I don't recall that particular story, but I'll note that, as per its inevitable subtype, the lhaksharut has an odd mix of living and artificial qualities.
As for Pinkie...what has she been up to since this fight started?
10058424
It makes the gods into a protection racket. And since people are forced to choose one, the gods as a whole can be callous jerks who don't take care of their worshipers with no consequences (until Ao gets sick of them and murders them all, which he's had to do repeatedly).
10058508 Leaving aside that the gods didn't set the system in place, and that it's no more of a "protection racket" than being Good-aligned is; they don't force anyone to make any particular choices in the matter, unlike how someone performing an extortion is actively threatening you.
In the standard planar arrangement, if you want to go to a pleasant afterlife, then you:
In the Forgotten Realms, if you want to go to a pleasant afterlife, then you:
It's the same thing, just with a different spin on it. There's a single criteria that you have to meet, and that's all it turns on.
And the gods quite clearly do take care of their worshipers (albeit the good ones more so than the evil ones), since they need them to survive. Likewise, Ao has not simply "murdered them all" on any occasion that I'm aware of).
10058548
You're actively threatened with being put in a city of the damned. If you aren't actively threatened, then they're just putting you in there without warning you which is even worse?
Canonically, the gods neglected their worshippers because people needed to worship *some* god to avoid the wall of the faithless and worshipped them anyway. You didn't actually get a good afterlife -- you ended up waiting on the plane of 'this is where the gods are supposed to pick you up where the frack are they?' -- but it was better than being tortured.
Ao didn't literally murder (very many of) them but he did arrange for them to die a lot. Although in at least one case that led to an allegedly good-aligned god *devouring* the souls of his worshippers in order to murder a rival.
I like the setting but the cosmology is... just really dumb honestly.
10058428
I only know of one logical processing system that has Pinkie class stories associated with it, and This Guy sure aint that.
Can a golem handle the result of actually being able to consume Zero cupcakes?
10058582
That's like saying that it's a "protection racket" that you'll be thrown out on the street if you don't pay your rent, or that you'll go to jail if you don't pay taxes. If you decide to opt out of a system that provides for your betterment, and so end up in an unfavorable position, then you are not being "actively threatened" by that system. If we hold to the proposition that everyone in the Realms is made aware (typically by the churches themselves) of what happens if they don't worship a deity, and then decide not to do so, it's in no way the gods' fault.
I don't see how this constitutes neglect; quite the opposite, if you worship a deity then that deity takes care of you in the afterlife. Call it quid pro quo if you want, but it's not neglect in any sense. In fact, this is exactly the same arrangement that happens in the typical "planar alignment" afterlife, since worshiping a deity there also sends you to that god's realm upon your death.
What does that have to do with anything? Yes, the souls of the recently deceased go to the Fugue Plane, where a god (or their representative) comes and picks them up, and does indeed (for Good-aligned deities) take them to a better afterlife. How does them going to the Fugue Plane first impact the process at all?
Citation needed. He didn't "arrange" for them to die. He did things like kick them out of their planar domains and into the mortal world, but there's no evidence that he masterminded any subsequent deicides; the gods did those on their own.
You're mischaracterizing what happened. In "Tantras," Book II of the Avatar Trilogy, Torm was made aware that Bane was heading toward the city in order to take one of the Tablets of Fate, which was hidden there. Torm then asked his followers if they would sacrifice themselves in order to give him the power necessary to defeat Bane. There was no "devouring" involved. Likewise, it wasn't "murder" either, since he fought Bane to defend Tantras (and the rest of the Realms, since the presumption was that whoever returned the Tablets of Fate would be rewarded by Ao, and Bane and Myrkul were the ones that had stolen them in the first place).
No more so than any of the other D&D cosmologies.
10058424
I think the main issue is that the Wall of the Faithless was NOT always part of the FR afterlife. It was created by the second god of the dead, Myrkul, who was a grade A asshole who liked making death something to be feared, and the Wall was basically his crowning achievement at being a dick to the dead, so much so that one of his own high priests actually turned against him because of it. The problem comes when, after the Time of Troubles (which Myrkul had a direct part in kicking off I note), things were restructured so that the gods power was determined by the amount of worship they got, turning the wall from just another example of Myrkul being an evil asshole, to a sword of Damacles that ALL the gods had to hold over the mortals to ensure their power. This results in Kelemvor, the guy who took Myrkul's place, being pressured to keep it up when he initially wanted to be rid of it. Granted I will acknowledge the part stupid mortals played by gaming the system to die doing good and getting into a good afterlife, which didn't help matters since you had a bunch of faithless meatheads Leeroy Jenkinsing themselves and getting a good afterlife out of it.
However I think a main source of rage against the Wall is that it's a catch-all punishment for all, one that ignores your actions in life. You were the best guy ever, fighting against the forces of evil, helping build orphanages, etc., but didn't actually worship any gods? Wall for you. Enjoy having your soul dissolved. Meanwhile there's another class of souls called the False. These guys actually outright betrayed their god in some way, yet compared to the Faithless, their judgement varies depending on the crime which COULD be something like eternal torture...or something like being forced to work in the City of the Dead as a guide for visitors for all eternity.
It also doesn't help that basically the entirety of the Neverwinter Nights 2 expansion, Mask of the Betrayer, was spent expounding on the horrors of the Wall only for you to be told you can't do anything about it near the end.
10058845
The idea that Myrkul was the one who established the Wall of the Faithless hasn't, insofar as I'm aware, been established in the actual lore for the Forgotten Realms. The closest I can find to confirmation for this is from the video game Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, and the canonity of that game strikes me as questionable, as it describes Myrkul's consciousness as being part of his god-corpse on the Astral Plane, when actual first-party sources (i.e. Volo's Guide to All Things Magical) confirm that his consciousness was transferred to the Crown of Horns in the moment before his death and has remained there since (prior to the events of The Sundering, at least). So if that game says that Myrkul was the one who established the Wall, then it's not exactly a trustworthy resource on this particular topic.
Moreover, while you've noted that Myrkul wasn't the first God of the Dead, it's worth noting that his predecessor, Jergal, wasn't exactly a pleasant deity either. While the Jergal seen in more recent products is a deferential butler-type (and Lawful Neutral in alignment, as listed in Powers & Pantheons), back in his heyday he was Lawful Evil (as confirmed in Arcane Age: Netheril: Empire of Magic), and while not wantonly cruel as mentioned in his description there, was not a soft touch either. The description in that book doesn't mention the Wall, but this does not rule out the possibility that he created it.
What's more germane, however, is that none of this really proves much of anything. The Faithless, like the False, were souls who didn't have a god to take them, and so were left to the God of the Dead to do with as he wanted. We saw what happened (in the novel Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad) when Kelemvor (who was then God of the Dead) saw fit to reward them based on their alignment: as you noted, it threw the entire system into jeopardy, since the good would basically die young, throwing their lives away certain that Kelemvor would reward them, and leave the mortal world in the hands of the Evil-aligned. That's why he stopped rewarding Good-aligned False and Faithless. Dying without a god in your corner isn't supposed to result in any sort of desirable ending.
Leaving aside that, while Myrkul and Bane's theft of the Tables of Fate did precipitate the Time of Troubles, Ao blamed all of the gods for what happened, noting how they were all derelict in their divine duties. Hence why he tied their power to their worshipers. But more notably, while this made them much more concerned with propagating their religions, it didn't change the distribution of souls in the afterlife. The idea that you either worshiped a deity faithfully or became either False or Faithless was already still in effect prior to that; this is confirmed in the novel Waterdeep, where the Wall is shown to be extant even before the Time of Troubles ended. So Ao's decree changed nothing where that was concerned.
I can find no evidence to support the idea that Kelemvor initially kept the Wall of the Faithless up, unless that's also something from Neverwinter Nights 2. Certainly, what's presented in Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad doesn't seem to advance this idea; quite the contrary.
It does not ignore your actions in life; that's what I keep saying. It simply puts the onus on different actions, namely which deity you worshiped and how faithfully you adhere to their religion. It's still entirely within the control of each and every mortal. Don't want to end up in the Wall? Remain pious. Don't want to be False? Remain pious. It's in no way an unfair system.
Again, I'm deeply suspicious of how canon that game is. It's far more reliable to stick to the novels and RPG sourcebooks.
10058924
Leaving the debate aside, I will note that sticking to the novels over VG lore, while mostly a valid idea, would mean accepting the Baldur's Gate novels as canon, and those things are a crime against literature, to say nothing of shitting all over the game's story.
10059163 That's just part of the price that goes along with developing a body of canon (and I thought the third novel, which had a different author than the first two, wasn't that bad). Besides, those novels are where it was initially established that the hero of the Bhaalspawn saga was Abdel Adrian, something which was later confirmed in Murder in Baldur's Gate.
10059719
Ugh, speaking of shitting all over the games, if the books hadn't been enough that module goes and renders both the books' and game's storys meaningless by having Bhaal get resurrected anyway. It's a double kick in the balls for the book character considering all his companions had died by the end.
10059755 Well, that was sort of the big deal of "The Sundering," in that it was meant to roll back a lot of the changes that had happened ever since the Time of Troubles. Personally, insofar as it was meant to correct the incredibly-stupid combination of The Spellplague and the hundred-year time-skip, it was okay, but they could have handled it a lot better.