136 - Justice is Served
“Now, tell them!”
Fencer felt her stomach tie itself in knots at Lex’s order. Ever since her near-death experience in the other warehouse, she’d been forced to confront the brutal truth of the monster she had become in the name of staying alive. Although she’d been fighting for her life ever since Vanhoover had flooded, it had only been then – when she’d honestly believed that she was about to die horribly, with no chance of rescue or survival – that her excuses and rationalizations had fallen away, letting her see that she had become as predatory and uncaring as the ghouls that were about to devour her alive.
That realization, that moment of seeing herself without any lies or deceptions, had completely broken her spirit. All of the guilt and sorrow and despair she’d been avoiding had come rushing back to her then, and the weight of those emotions had been crushing. And they had only worsened when she’d woken up from her surgery to find that the crystal stallion she’d hurt – just the latest pony among so many that she’d wronged – had died of his wounds. The shame she’d felt upon hearing that had been overwhelming enough to make her wish with all her heart that she could find a hole to crawl in and never come out. The thought of hiding away and not letting anypony else see all of the ugliness inside of her was the only thing that made her feel even slightly better.
And now Lex had just ordered her to bare her shame in front of everypony.
This was a thousand times worse than having him rip her dress off. She’d worn that to hide how benign her white picket fence cutie mark looked, as it didn’t match with the heartless personality she’d crafted for herself. But this…
Lex’s eyes narrowed, displeased by her hesitation. “Tell them what you did!” he snarled again.
She backed away from him, shaking her head. Not this! Anything but this! He could lay a hundred curses on her if it meant sparing her this level of humiliation! Unable to help herself, she glanced at the crowd, and immediately squeezed her eyes shut as she saw that everypony was looking at her, unable to bear the weight of their judging gazes. But an instant later she comprehended the details of what she’d glimpsed, and felt a chill go down her spine: Turbo had been pointedly nudging Granola Bar. A few feet away, Funshine had glanced at Slip ‘N’ Slide meaningfully. Even Piggy had been gulping nervously.
In that moment, Fencer realized what was about to happen. They were going to try and rescue her. No! You idiots! I told you not to! But she wasn’t surprised that Turbo hadn’t listened. He’d made it clear, before she’d been put under anesthesia, that they weren’t going to abandon her. Although she’d thought she couldn’t feel worse than she already did, the thought sent a new wave of self-loathing through her. Don’t you understand? I never thought of you as anything except tools I could use to survive! You shouldn’t be doing this for me!
Opening her eyes, she looked at where Lex was still glowering at her expectantly. She knew that he’d crush any rescue attempt the instant it happened. Worse, he’d punish them harshly for it, of that she was absolutely confident. And if that happened, it would be more than she could bear.
“I’ll do it!” The words tore themselves from her throat, her voice raw. Looking over at the assembled ponies, she caught Turbo’s gaze, giving him a pleading look. “I’ll do it, so don’t…don’t do anything.”
The crowd of ponies murmured in confusion, not sure what she was talking about. Across from her, Lex was similarly unsure what she meant. Is she pleading for leniency? If so, she was going to be disappointed. “You have no right to ask that nothing be done to you!” He stamped a hoof for emphasis, and the crowd quieted down. “You showed no compassion for the ponies you hurt, and so you deserve none now!” He could feel himself starting to become angry again, incensed that she was worried about her own fate after everything she’d done.
“I know that. I know it, so…let me do this.” Her eyes were still locked onto Turbo’s as she spoke. She could see the hesitation on his face, knowing that he wanted to come to her aid. But a moment later he bit his lip, giving her the slightest of nods, and she let out a breath. She lowered her head as she did, closing her eyes and taking a long moment to gather her courage. There was no choice now.
Straightening up, she forced herself to look over the crowd, refusing to turn away even as she felt herself quail inside. “My name is…” she trailed off, unable to continue. “Fencer” had been the name she’d given herself when she’d decided that she would survive no matter what. It had represented who she thought she’d needed to be in order to make that happen. But now, trying to say the name out loud made her realize that it wasn’t who she was, or wanted to be, anymore. “My name is Garden Gate. Some of you know me as Fencer, but that’s my real name.” She saw the surprised looks on the faces of the ponies from her group, and suddenly wished she’d told them at least that much about herself before now.
“I’m…it’s my fault that pony, Pillowcase, died.” Saying his name caused a hollow feeling to form in the pit of her stomach. “I h-hurt him, and a lot of other ponies, very badly…” she trailed off, her throat suddenly closing up. “I’m sorry!” she choked out, her eyes beginning to tear up. “I’m so, so sorry for everything I did!” Sniffling, she rubbed a hoof over her eyes. “When Vanhoover fell apart, I thought that harmony didn’t matter anymore, and that it didn’t matter what I did if it meant I could make it through another day, but I was wrong!” Suddenly she couldn’t stop herself, the words tumbling out of her mouth. “What we do, the way we treat other ponies, it always matters! Especially when things go bad! That’s when harmony, when being a friend to everypony around you, is the most important thing of all. I forgot that, and because I did, somepony else paid the price for my mistakes.” She let out a shuddering breath. “I’d give anything to be able to go back and undo what I did, or trade my life for Pillowcase’s, but I can’t. All I can do is say that I’m sorry.” She lowered her head then, eyes closed, feeling wrung out and thoroughly wretched.
In that moment, she hoped that the curses Lex laid on her would be horrible. It was what she deserved.
Lex listened as Fencer, or Garden Gate, or whatever her name was spoke.
Her allocution hadn’t been what he’d expected. He’d taken it for granted that she’d list off her crimes one-by-one, letting everypony see what a monster she really was and that what he was about to do to her was entirely deserved. Instead, she’d made an outpouring of remorse, thoroughly repudiating her actions up until now and tearfully begging for forgiveness. As she finished, her last apology hanging in the air as she bowed her head, the entire warehouse was completely silent. But Lex barely noticed. Instead, he simply stared at the mare in front of him, her words replaying themselves over and over in his mind, until a single thought emerged:
Liar.
Her sudden remorse was too coincidental to be believed. He’d offered her numerous chances to do the right thing, to demonstrate a renewed commitment to the ponies around her, and she’d spurned him each and every time. That she was only sorry now, after she’d already been defeated and dragged back in disgrace, was so incredibly convenient that he couldn’t bring himself to entertain the possibility that she was sincere. It was far more likely that this was just another of her endless, vicious tricks, feigning a sudden crisis of conscience in hope of being given a lighter sentence.
His blood boiling at the thought of her perfidy, Lex telekinetically pulled Severance off of his back, holding it aloft. “As the sole authority over Vanhoover, I hereby find you guilty of assault, kidnapping, attempted murder, and murder,” he intoned harshly, his voice stentorian. “For these crimes, you will NOW BE MADE TO PAY!” He roared the last part, making everypony in attendance jump.
Heedless of the fright he’d raised, Lex stepped closer to Fen-, to Garden Gate, and swung Severance. Several of the ponies watching cried out, convinced that he was attacking her, and Turbo threw himself forward, wings spreading as he raced forward. But he had barely started when Lex, without bothering to turn his head, pointed a hoof at him. Instantly, black crystals spread along his wings, causing him to crash to the ground with a grunt of pain.
“Turbo, don’t!” screamed Garden Gate. “I’m okay!” But even as the words left her mouth, she felt something hot running down her face. Blinking in confusion – she wasn’t in any pain – she touched a hoof to her face, blinking as it came away wet with blood. “What?” She felt again, and a slight tenderness told her that there was a long, shallow cut right between her eyes.
“This is your first curse.” The roiling purple miasma along Lex’s horn flared as he spoke, channeling additional magic through himself as in order to give his malediction the power it needed. “You will wear the mark of your shame openly, and if you come within ten feet of another pony, it will rob you of your strength.” Even as he spoke the blood flowing down her face began to shift, diverting from its path to pool beneath her left eye, where it rippled and spread until it had formed the clear image of a scythe. Garden Gate cried out at the unnatural sensation, bringing a hoof up to rub at her face, but it was useless; the bloodstain remained no matter how much she rubbed at it. An instant later, it began to glow softly, and she gasped as she felt a sudden lethargy seep into her limbs, muscles spasming as she struggled to remain upright. Lex smirked at the sight, knowing that it was because he was within range of the curse’s activation area.
“That’s one. Now for the second.” His horn flared again as he drew in more power. “You committed acts of evil in hope of stealing my magic. As such, it seems only fair that you will no longer be allowed to use magic at all.” A horrified look crossed her face at that, and Lex couldn’t resist the urge to grin darkly. He’d shut down her ability to use magic before, and she’d been very upset by it. Doubtlessly she’d been relieved that he’d had her horn reattached; to be able to take that away from her now brought him no small amount of satisfaction.
He concentrated, and a moment later a purple aura just like his own appeared around Garden Gate’s horn. He felt her struggling against it, trying to keep it out, but her resistance was no match for him, and he forced it to move how he wanted. An instant later it began to flow into her horn, seeping into every part of it until finally the purple glow had been completely absorbed, leaving no trace that it had ever been there. Lex let out a breath as he felt the curse settle over her. The last time he’d shut down her ability to use magic, he’d used black crystals to interfere with her biological ability to do so. That wasn’t an option this time, both due to how directly crystallizing darkness only lasted for an hour, and because he didn’t dare use that after she had just had her horn reattached. Instead, he’d laid a direct damper on her ability to shape and direct magical energies at all, regardless of the type of magic she used. It wasn’t an absolute restriction, either; a spellcaster of great power, such as Sonata or Twilight Sparkle, would have found their spellcasting ability impeded, but not shut down entirely. Garden Gate, however, was nowhere near that level, and so would find herself entirely bereft of the ability to use magic.
“And as for the last curse-”
“That’s enough!” yelled a voice, and Lex glanced over to see that Turbo had climbed back to his hooves, his crystal-covered wings held out awkwardly as he glared at Lex. “You’ve already crippled her! You don’t need to do anything else!”
“She murdered a pony,” Lex replied coldly. “Three curses is the bare minimum that she deserves, and if you think otherwise then see if you can bring yourself to say that to Pillowcase’s widow. Now be quiet, before I charge you for attempting to interfere with justice.” Despite the threat, Turbo looked ready to keep arguing, only for an earth pony mare to hold a leg out in front of him and shake her head, whispering something.
Lex ignored them, turning back to Garden Gate, who was looking at him fearfully. “Now, for your final curse,” he began, unable to keep a hateful smile off of his face. “As the Night Mare is the patron goddess of my dominion, it is only fitting that you will find no peace when you rest. As such, you will re-live your shame and your disgrace every night when you dream.” For the third time, he pulled in additional magic as he began to lay the curse, wanting this to be as strong as he could make it so that Princess Luna wouldn’t be able to undo his justice.
Again he felt her resisting as the aura around his horn flared, and again he crushed it easily. This wasn’t exactly the same as the tantabus curse the Night Mare had laid on him, of course. Garden Gate wouldn’t have a shadow that stretched in odd directions, nor a voice taunting her when she was awake. But she wouldn’t know a night’s peace while his curse persisted, and that was what mattered. A moment later he felt the curse settle into place, and he nodded to himself in satisfaction.
“Justice is served.”
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So lex wants to remove the princesses from power and alienate ponies from all other species. He does know that the princesses are the only reason that equestria has not been conquered by the other races in the world.
8385771 Lex doesn't want to alienate anyone; he simply takes it as a given that ponies are superior, since they've created a society with more magic, more money, more prosperity, and greater moral values than every other race in the world. It's hard to argue that their culture isn't greater than that of, say, the dragons, the yaks, the griffons, etc.
Likewise, he recognizes that the princesses have defended Equestria up until now, but crisis management is the lowest level of governance. It's far more worthwhile to solve problems before they become problems, to his mind. The princesses don't seem to be proactive about much of anything, whereas he believes in a strong and active centralized government. Hence, he feels that he can get more done than they can.
I think Fencer should kill herself. Wouldn't that be funny? Lex wanted to perserve all pony life and then pushed one so far it choose to die.
8385801 Wow. Dark.
So he's basically forced her to become a sniper.
Permanent maiming is usually seen as going to far, yes. OTOH locking people up in cages forever isn't, so YMMV.
8385937 Yeah, that occurred to me too. Luckily, Equestria doesn't seem to have very much in the way of ranged weaponry. Pinkie's party cannon and those ice-arrows we saw in season four's Equestria Games seem to be about it, and given that a cannon is rather obvious (unless you're Pinkie) and the ice-arrows seem to be used for relatively niche sports only (since they're never used or seen anywhere else), it's probably fairly safe.
Also, bear in mind that curses aren't necessarily permanent. They can be lifted, whereas native Equestrian magic can't seem to perform any medical care that we've seen, and certainly nothing fantastic like regrowing severed body parts.
I have not seen any yet but does Lex's Curse work on Typo's
8386004 Nope. Typos are already a curse unto themselves.
Not sure about the nightmare thing, but on the whole I'd say that was pretty just considering she probably would have gotten the death penalty elsewhere.
Countdown clock has started until Turbo and his supporters try and back stab him over this though.
If this is the punishment Lex has decided on for self surviving at cost of others, what sorts of things is he going to have to consider when he gets to the deliberate perversion enforcers in the seige wall, who, like him, want Vahoover thier way?
8385790
Wonder if Lex finding out that the Everglow pony empire eventually collapses to the point that the ponies there never become a major power on their world again (as indicated in Beyond Everglow) would change his mind about ponies being superior?
Though whatever that might do to his racist tendancies, it would probably reinforce his opinions on the short-sidedness of alicorns, given the cause of the collapse.
8385801 I kind of expect that will happen at this point.
First off, welcome back. Hope you had fun.
Now as far as the curses Lex chose to punish Fencer or rather, Garden Gate(fitting for the analogy her father gave her). Well, on paper they seem to be fitting for Fencer when she was unrepentant as she would experience the helplessness that Pillowcase felt when Fencer and the others robbed him and left him for dead.
For Garden Gate on the other hand, this will make it harder for her to reconnect with ponies and also leave her helpless in case her former victims come looking for retribution, regardless of how repentant she is. Of course, she'd also be helpless if she tries to help someone else so there's that as well.
While Lex already stated the reason behind sealing away Garden Gate's magic, I feel that this falls into the same category as the first curse, to make her feel helpless while also showing what he's capable of if anyone tries to defy his authority. The third curse would be a literal nightmare for Garden and could potentially break her though I suppose that's Lex intentions anyways.
Overall, the curses are fitting and justified, if Garden Gate had been unrepentant but with the remorse she displayed before the group and the harshness of him putting down those who cause trouble...Well, I feel that if Garden hadn't told the others to stand down, Lex would have had to deal with an obviously short lived uprising and punish them as criminals afterwards.
Surely this cannot come back to bite somebody in the flank.
8386004
Typos are my job. I am very good at removing their hide spells.
8386023 The first two curses were largely utilitarian in nature, in that he didn't want her to have the power to hurt anypony else (though there's also a poetic element in that she'll now be helpless around other ponies, instead of being a predator). The third one, on the other hoof, was meant simply to rub her nose in what she'd done. Since he thinks she's unrepentant, nightly torment seems like a fitting punishment to him.
But yeah, I can't imagine this has endeared Lex to the rest of
Fencer'sGarden Gate's old group...or anypony else, for that matter.8386046 One can only imagine...
8386071 That's a fairly easy one, and has already been hinted at in this story, albeit only by reading between the lines: he'll attribute it to a failure of leadership, rather than any lack of racial superiority. While Lex thinks that ponies are, as a whole, innately predisposed to greater cultural achievements, he recognizes that leadership is necessary to cultivate that, both with regards to meeting opposition and towards nurturing those inherent qualities. If the ponies in charge aren't doing their job (well enough), then it's entirely possible for everything to collapse.
As it stands, Lex would likely be aghast that Queen Iliana simply didn't grant herself eternal life; after all, if Equestrian alicorns can do so, and Iliana has greater magic at her command as well as a being the apple of the Sun Queen's eye, then to his mind dying of old age after only two hundred years is ridiculous. Doing so without training and appointing a successor beforehand is inexcusable. And to a degree, he has a point; if Iliana can cast wish...well, there's no hard-and-fast statement about what that can do for the caster's lifespan, but I feel fairly confident in saying that it should let you get several centuries at the very least. (The only out-and-out statement D&D has ever made in this regard that I'ma ware of was in AD&D 2nd Edition's Complete Book of Necromancer's, where it mentions that a well-worded wish to slow their aging down to one-tenth the normal rate, and that with the judicious use of potions of longevity and elixers of youth, a spellcaster can get one thousand years or so of life. Unfortunately, it's questionable how much of that statement about wishes applies to D&D 3.5/Pathfinder.)
8386708 Of course not. After all, it's not like Lex would do something that would upset everypony else, right?
8386556 Thanks! I had a great time (and spent way too much money, but it was worth it)!
As you noted, on paper Lex's curses serve all of his stated aims, in that they punish her fittingly for what she's done, send a message to anypony else who'd even consider committing heinous crimes, and try and rehabilitate the offender in question. In actuality, I wonder just how effective that will be. As others have noted, it's highly questionable how much the rest of Garden's old group will appreciate what he's done to their leader; for that matter, we haven't seen how everypony else has reacted to what he's done. Remember, they come from a society where a sincere display of remorse is typically seen as being enough; Equestria doesn't have a history of mandatory punishment.
That's essentially the real takeaway, here. Lex grossly misjudged Garden's state of mind, and so came down on her extremely harshly, at least by Equestrian standards. It's one thing to bring the full force of your wrath against monsters that are trying to tear you limb from limb. It's quite another to do so against a crying mare who's pleading for forgiveness. Lex has just shown another aspect of what his rulership will be like, should he get to found a kingdom of his own, and while it may be just, that doesn't mean it'll be popular.
Needless to say, he probably should have let Sonata speak for him.
8386848 Indeed you are!
8387196
It's also rather deplorable when you take into account there's at least one or two ways in Pathfinder rules that arcane spellcasters can get ageless immortality just through achieving level 20...which Illiana had to have been. Heck, one rulebook for the Dragonlance 3.5 setting has a time manipulation spell that can reverse age by a couple decades or so. Just remember to cast every 20 years...
8387230 Well, in terms of class abilities, Iliana is a 20th-level sorcerer with the Unification bloodline (from the Ponyfinder Campaign Setting), which doesn't have eternal life as part of its 20th-level "capstone" ability. Rather, that 20th-level benefit ("Fey Monarch") simply removes aging penalties you've accrued, and prevents new ones from applying; you still die when your time is up (it does some other stuff too, but nothing else age-related).
In other words, her choice of class and bloodline meant that she didn't really have access to any of the other 20th-level abilities that grant eternal life (and it's questionable if a character would know about those ahead of time, from an in-game standpoint). So that much I don't think can be held against her. Rather, she should have been able to use magic (presumably spellcasting, but possibly also finding/making a magic item) to get the job done.
As an aside, do you remember what Dragonlance book that particular spell is in (or what the spell's name is)? I can't remember what 3.5 book it's in, but the only one I can recall is the time reaver spell, but that allows for actual time travel.
8387210
True, by Equestrian standards, his sentencing was almost tyrannical. I guess staying in the Everglow affected on the severity of punishments. Though it's more likely that harsh punishments were more common in Equestria's past. Equestrian society may have stagnated but the punishments for crimes grew softer after centuries of relative peace under Celestia's rule.
Regardless, if Lex keeps going as he is , then parts of the group will likely start seeing him as the second coming of Sombra while those loyal to him would start questioning his judgement. Sonata really needs to give him a proper tongue lashing before something bad happens.
8387297 I suspect that the harshness of Lex's punishment has less to do with his spending time on Everglow (though that's surely a part of it) and more to do with that simply being how he is. To be fair, this isn't exactly something that a tearful apology can completely fix; in the show, that usually prompts forgiveness being granted by the wronged party, but here the wronged party remains dead, so there's an argument to be made that a mandatory punishment is appropriate. But then again, that's the sort of highly-logical thinking that Lex has all too often found doesn't reflect how everypony else operates.
To a large degree, Sonata could ameliorate the problems he'll likely face, simply because she can do a better PR on his actions than he can. His words and his actions as he sentenced
FencerGarden Gate included angry yelling, sneering condescension, and even grinning hatefully as he cursed her. It's things like that which make him look bad, no matter how just his actions are. Sonata can help him out a lot there...if he would just let her.I have some question before starting.
Is the prequel a must read before reading this?
8387240
Legends of the Twins, page 25, River's Ravages, Greater.
Basically the spell allows you to age/de-age someone by 2 years/lvl and the Greater version is permanent.
8387326 No, it's not.
While this story doesn't ignore the preceding stories, it makes certain to explain any references it makes to them. I made absolutely sure to make this as friendly and accessible to new readers as I could, because I didn't want them to be handicapped if they hadn't read the prior stories. I've had at least one review that's stated that I've pulled this off, so I feel confident in saying it here.
8387328 Thanks for that. I don't have that book (yet), so I wasn't aware of it.
8387370
Alchemistrs Great discovery at Level 20 is the creation of one Philosophers Stone per month. Although I dont know if you have to imbibe one per year, and its cost of creation is relatively minor, it should give a cap on spellcraft costs. My only annoyance is that after another centuary, you are not permited access to the other Grand Discoveries and such like.
8387379 That one I did remember, and there's a handful of others, but as capstone class abilities they're among the most difficult to get ahold of.
8387367
Great!
Then once more unto the breach!
8387429 I hope you enjoy the story!
8387379
I think Pathfinder's Philosopher's Stone doesn't grant immortality. Neither does the Wizard Discovery "Immortality", funnily enough.
8387240
It's also important to note that she decided it would be a good idea to piss off a deity (Tribe of Bones it was?). Even in 3.5, where deities are significantly weaker than in Pathfinder, trying to one-on-one them was basically a deathwish if you aren't prepared (and even the preparations are harsh: A greenstone amulet only takes care of the worst offenders, if that).
In Pathfinder, where deities aren't statted out (which is already a sign of something being very wrong), it's only gonna get worse. Some sort of "curse of wasting" or whatever that just makes her age magically would be enough. Sky's the limit if you don't obey the laws of logic and reality.
8387729 You're right; that's the "Eternal Youth" grand discovery, rather than the "Philosopher's Stone" one. Still, I knew what he meant.
EDIT: That said, the immortality wizard discovery is pretty clearly meant to let you live until something kills you, preventing you from ever dying of old age.
Oddly, the wording that Sean K. Reynolds tags as being "correct" in that thread would also seem to apply to the wording in the Unification bloodline's "Fey Monarch" ability...but the same author had Iliana die of old age, so that's pretty obviously not meant to be the case.
8387747 That's kind of reaching...there's nothing in Ponyfinder lore suggesting that Iliana was in any way hit with any sort of negative effects from Soft Whisper for her genocide of the Tribe of Bones. Quite the contrary, Soft Whisper has typically been portrayed as stoic, with a "all things die in time, anyway" attitude about her. More than that, it's been hinted (though I might be wrong here) that Iliana is favored by the Sun Queen, who is the head of the entire pantheon.
Also, a greenstone amulet (from Magic of Faerun, as I recall) just grants you a permanent mind blank (which was much better in 3.X than it is in Pathfinder), and a +4 bonus on saves versus necromancy or forced transportation, or a DC 20 Will save versus those effects if they don't allow a save normally. That makes it a pretty potent minor artifact, but nothing too special.
Finally, it's incorrect to say that deities in 3.5 are "significantly weaker" than those in Pathfinder. The idea that Pathfinder deities can't be given stats (which is something of an oversimplification anyway, since we have first-party Pathfinder stats for demigods and similar beings, which are CR 26-30) is more of a stylistic decision than one about scale of power. The Paizo developers are simply of the opinion that fully-fledged deities shouldn't have statistics, which is a decision that flies in the face of the D&D tradition; literally every version of D&D has stats for deities to some degree (yes, even AD&D 2nd Edition, albeit not fully). Moreover, the Paizo people have flat-out told us that mortals can fight gods directly: we were told in Tar-Baphon's entry in Mythic Realms that - while still mortal - he had a direct confrontation with Aroden. Tar-Baphon lost that fight, but the book lets it slip that he lost on purpose, as part of the method of becoming a mythic lich of exceptional power was being killed directly by a deity.
But more notable, to my mind, is that if you look in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, in the entry for the contact other plane spell - and this is only in the book, and not on the PRD or d20PFSRD - it says that the Pathfinder deities are intermediate deities. Everyone seems to overlook that tidbit.
8387772
While that's true, it would be a good reason for why she can't just make herself immortal. I mean, choosing to die when you can also choose not to is basically the definition of a suicide. Then again, I'm not fluent in Ponyfinder stuffs (or Pathfinder stuffs, as is evident), so maybe there was a legitimate reason I'm not aware of. Reincarnate + Miracle seems like it would get the job done, unless I'm missing something (or Miracle actually kills the reincarnated and restores the body back to it's dead state, not so sure about that).
The thing that makes a greenstone amulet (possibly) potent against deities is the fact that their most common no-save no-sr instant death effects works like a Destruction spell that allows no save, which is a necromancy effect. That's also why I have the "if that" in there: The DM can obviously say that an effect that affects someone with a necromantic effect does not affect them with a necromantic effect.
About the thing with the Whispering Tyrant... I fully admit that I had no idea about that. I only knew him so far as that he wiped a group I was in during a game and that he fought Aroden, but I did not know that Aroden was already a deity at that point. That is interesting, especially since there apparently was a fight that lasted quite a while. Huh... Yeah, I fully concede my point on this. Now I just gotta hope that I don't forget that...
Also... 2nd ed AD&D had stats for deities? What book was that? I seem to remember that that edition was the one where deities were at the top of their game. Then again... I already was pleasantly surprised today, so I surely wouldn't mind being surprised again
On that note:
...HOLY F-
Fire. That was what I was about to say. Fire.
That aside, that is an amazing find. Can't believe I missed this. That's gonna be something I gotta favorite in my browser for... future reference (that may also just have saved my characters behind in a game, because it measn Pharasma clearly doesn't have Divine Splendor).
8387909
No, there really doesn't seem to be one. Although Everglow ponies can live for a maximum of 75 + 2d20 years (Ponyfinder Campaign Setting, p. 53), Iliana lived for just over three centuries (I was mistaken before when I said two centuries) according to the timeline on page 59. So she was clearly already extending her life somehow. But there's nothing that I can find as to what was doing it or why it stopped working (or if she just chose to stop). I suppose there's a case to be made that she'd already wished herself a longer life, but I find it difficult to believe that a wish would only gain you about two hundred extra years or so. It's the putative strongest spell in the game, after all.
The reincarnate spell is a popular work-around to the "dying of old age" problem, since it's expressly stated to be able to work even then (so long as it's cast within one week of death, you have a piece of the deceased's body, and they're willing to come back). Moreover, you're right that a miracle would be able to restore them to their old body then; the wording makes it fairly obvious, at least to me, that this is intended to restore your body at the same as as your reincarnation, which is young adulthood.
Of course, Iliana doesn't have either of those spells available to her, but a wish can function as a reincarnate, and can likewise restore a reincarnated person's original body just as readily as a miracle could. That still leaves the problem of casting reincarnate after she's died - and there don't seem to be any metamagic feats that would allow for delaying a spell to go off at a later time (though this would be easy to do in Eclipse) - but at worst she presumably get someone else to do it for her (possibly with magic items, if they have a sufficient Use Magic Device skill bonus).
Overall, yeah, if you're a high-level full-progression spellcaster, dying from old age shouldn't be a serious obstacle. Hence why Iliana's death is such a head-scratcher. I mean, I understand the narrative romanticism of someone "choosing to pass on," but that loses a lot of its appeal in a d20-based universe, where the afterlife is entirely known and can be visited.
Well, the Hand of Death divine power does allow a saving throw, though you're right that the Life and Death ability does not. That said...Life and Death also flat-out says that it "penetrates any barrier except a divine shield," which could be interpreted to mean that a greenstone amulet won't help against it. Then again, those amulets are artifacts, albeit minor ones. I'd say that's a GM's call, myself.
To be fair, this is an easy mistake to make, as the details are fairly well hidden (even Pathfinderwiki.com's entry for Tar-Baphon doesn't seem to go into sufficient level of detail to make that clear) and it presents a seemingly-contradictory point of view in that Paizo wants their deities to be vulnerable in a narrative sense without quantifying precisely how that would happen under the game rules. I can understand that point of view, but I don't respect it. If Tar-Baphon was a living human character with 20 class levels and 10 mythic tiers and was able to actually fight Aroden without it being a one-second instance of Aroden smiting him with a thought, then why can't your PCs do the same to Lamashtu? (Oh, and another one was when Lamashtu was "just" a demon lord, which have stats in Pathfinder, and yet killed Curchanus, who was a god.)
Despite what everyone seems to think, AD&D 2nd Edition deities did have stats...partially.
If you look in Legends & Lore (or Faiths & Avatars, where the relevant information was reprinted and slightly expanded), you'll find that there are clearly-delineated limits on what deities - not just avatars, but the deities themselves - can do. However, this information is incomplete, at least with regard to being enough to have deities be entirely defined in terms of their abilities. Under these rules, deities don't have a listed Armor Class, nor any hit points. But they do have specific magic resistance scores and saving throws (and, of course, they say flat-out that mortals, even with major artifacts, can't kill them).
So, for example, if you're trying to fight a lesser deity, you won't be able to whack it to death in melee, since it has no defined AC or hit points (rather oddly, Faiths & Avatars adds a little bit of information on divine immunities, and as part of that goes into what level of magic weapons you'd need to damage a deity). But you could hit it with an imprisonment spell, and unless the deity has some sort of special immunity (since there's no inherent divine immunity to that sort of spell effect) - such as from a particular spell, magic item, artifact, or something particular to them, etc. - then they'll be affected. But only if you get past their 90% magic resistance and they roll a natural 1 or natural 2 on their saving throw (which means that you essentially only have a 1% chance of success, since you have to have two successive 10% chances of success fall in your favor). Even then, that's presuming that the deity wouldn't be able to disrupt your spellcasting anyway, since imprisonment has a casting time of 9, and a deity always wins initiative against mortals, with a lesser deity being able to take five actions per round. But still, it's technically possible.
Note that there were also several instances of demigods receiving full stats in AD&D 2E (though quite a few of these were AD&D 1E stats - where all deities had full statistics - being updated to 2E). In fact, Hercules is a demigod that's given full stats in Legends & Lore! That said, for the most part you're right in that AD&D 2E was the height of power for D&D deities. Every other edition had full stats for them.
Also, as a sidebar worth mentioning: the very first book Wizards of the Coast ever wrote - years before it acquired D&D - was The Primal Order, a system-neutral book about how to use gods in your campaign, which spent a considerable period of time giving them stats. More notably, it also included an appendix with specific conversion notes for almost twenty different systems, including AD&D 2nd Edition (which also worked for AD&D First Edition and Basic D&D). Unfortunately, after this got them in some (undeserved) legal trouble, the book's second printing removed the D&D conversion notes (and a few others, though it then added some others in turn).
Hehe, I love dropping that particular reference!
I've seen some people dismiss it as being purely a compatibility note with regards to that spell, or try to nitpick the listing as being irrelevant because it refers to them as the "Pathfinder Chronicles" deities, when that particular heading has since been retired, but those all strike me as rather weak excuses. Innocuous though it may be, this is the single most official reference we have with regards to the power level of the gods of Golarion.
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Since she is a "Fey Monarch", shouldn't it be easy to her to get her hooves on one of these CR 6 caterpillars? I don't remember their names... Ramacera? I think? I believe they would basically "bite" people with a contingent reincarnation, though I could be wrong on this.
Yeah, it's kinda questionable what exactly barrier and penetrating a barrier means. Does it ignore Prismatic Fields? What about, say, Ban of Heaven from Eclipse, which stops the ability from working entirely? Would a construct, which is naturally immune Destruction, still be affected? And if such an immunity is a barrier, is being made of fire (in case of a fire elemental) considered a "barrier against fire"?
The better solution is to just get a Divine Rank yourself. Via Einherjar or Dragon Ascendant or Sarrukh or maybe even by just buying a Major Privilege for it
Now that you mention it, I DO vaguely remember that one. Wasn't this why Desna dislikes Lamashtu?
Also, we know for a fact that deities are not immune to "Rock(s) fall(s), everyone dies", though they can greatly reduce the impact of it for others. Azmanen and Acavna could tell you a story about tha- ohh wait... No, they can't :3
Indeed it is. I have the page-number written down now
I'll look into the 2nd ed books... If I manage to find them sometime^^°
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A remacera, and that ability doesn't actually grant any rulership ability over fey creatures. It does grant some very minor bonuses on a few skill checks, but not really any kind of actual lordship over creatures with that particular creature type. Given that those are Chaotic Neutral creatures that see themselves as agents of necessary rebirth, and Iliana is a Neutral Good character who founded an empire, I doubt she could just tell them to help her out and they'd be fine with it.
If that's anything like a prismatic sphere, then probably.
That's one area where I wouldn't recommend utilizing an existing d20 resource in conjunction with Eclipse. Don't get me wrong, you can, but I think that if you're going to go that route it's better to utilize Eclipse's version of divinity. Otherwise, use Eclipse to build Deities and Demigods-style deities, so that you're working off of the same basic assumptions.
Probably not, since it's not technically alive, and that power is meant to be a killing power.
I wouldn't say that's necessarily the case, since it's inherent. Then again, this is why some designers and developers don't like immunities and would prefer escalating levels of resistances instead.
Yeah, see how well that particular request goes over when you try it.
I suppose so, since Curchanus was her mentor.
I was going to mention them, but couldn't recall their names at the moment.
Also, Ydersius, whom the PCs get to fight at the end of the Serpent's Skull adventure path.
After Basic D&D, I cut my teeth on 2nd Edition for a long time, and I still retain a major fondness for it today. I'm still acquiring new books to help flesh out my collection, as this was one of the most prolific periods in the history of the game!
And... Caught up. 4 days after I said I would start. Wow.
Oh, and this section of cave is empty too, but we did find some scorch marks in a pit, alluding to a torture chamber where victims were burned alive.
Now what do I read?
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James Fire?
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I... reserve my right to remain silent :3
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True, but:
" Their magical ability to spawn new remaceras in the bodies of others is the asexual remacera’s sole means of reproduction, and reserved for those who remain out of reach or have particularly impressed the remacera.
Remaceras themselves have no fear of death, knowing that they’ll no doubt enjoy whatever new forms they take, and while they defend themselves to the best of their ability, they bear no ill will toward those who slay them. "
I feel both of them could apply. If the Queen impresses the remacera, magically or otherwise, she might get subjected to their New Growth ability, which deals damage. Otherwise, it seems like engaging combat with the intent to loose (or at least be damaged) could work the same way. Finally... Charm Monster could do the trick :3
So, after reading just the first page's examples, I can see that he has the view that deities must be superior regardless of anything... Yeah, his views and mine ought to get along fiiiiiine
Also, I think Satan would use the Control Creatures SDA, which ignores Protection from Evil and some sneaking god might as well use Superior Invisibility, which is immune to See invisibility.
Counting as immortal for the purpose of effects that specifically target mortal creatures? Or getting a Divine Rank?
Honestly, I fail to see where the first one would even create problems unless the DM specifically wants to screw you over with no way to avoid it, in which case the problem would not lie with the player (in my opinion). On getting a Divine Rank or anything that has anything to do with a Sarrukh... Yeah, that's a work in progress
I'll be looking at that :3
EDIT: Looked into the Serpent's Skull adventure path. It says that the PCs are no threat to the actual, full-pwer deity Ydersius and can only beat it's avatar. Interestinly enough, there is nothing that states what happens when you just disjoin the Skull of Ydersius.
hum a bit harsh? passably but if you think about it she is free to go ware ever when normal a murder charge is life in a 8 x 10 cell.
so in the long run this fits and stand to make a point to everypony.
8388680 Well done checking over all those chapters! Thanks, as always, for keeping an eye on my writing!
8389078 Well, he still had them prepare a cage for her, though that does seem a little redundant now, doesn't it?
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Considering that Iliana places an apparent premium on enchantment spells, that last one would probably work best. But then again, all of this presumes that she'd want to avoid death, which she presumably has easier ways of doing than reaching out to beguile a rather esoteric creature. Ultimately, it's a mystery that only one person (that being David Silver) can solve.
It's more that he's addressing what he presumes (not wrongly) is an expectations gap. Admittedly, he's operating under the presumption that gods should be superior to mortals, but the underlying point is that the absolute nature of a lot of effects - particularly for low-level effects - means that issues of scale (even when that scale is an inherent presumption) no longer apply, which can hurt expectations. If the God of Invisibility can be seen with a 2nd-level see invisibility spell - given that magic is ubiquitous, particularly at such a low level - then that does seem to fly in the face of how we'd naturally presume the setting works.
Now, admittedly this isn't quite the lead-in to the slippery slope down into the rabbit hole of "counter-immunities" and "counter-counter-immunities" that he's talking about, but his point isn't completely without merit. At higher levels, particularly when facing enemies who are supposed to have some sort of inherent, powerful connection to a particular element or aspect of reality, then there starts to be verisimilitude issues regarding their abilities being so casually defeated, particularly by existing powers that are a staple of the game world. This doesn't need to mean that deities are absolutely powerful (that's simply going too far in the other direction...though that does match with what some people think of deities, particularly among Pathfinder players, where that view has been cultivated by the designers), but that a scale of escalating resistances necessarily avoids this issue, rather than immunities and counter-immunities.
I suspect that he was speaking in general, rather than looking at any specifics.
Though it's worth noting that, since he wrote this article in 2005, he might have been referring to the entry for Lucifer in the 2002 Tome of Horrors book (or possibly the AD&D 1st Edition stats given in Dragon #28, "The Politics of Hell"). Ironically, neither entry gives him any special ability to possess people anyway. Though, to be fair, the Pathfinder conversion of the former listing does have magic jar as one of his sorcerer spells. So in a way, he's right that a protection from evil spell would stop Satan from possessing him!
But yeah, the point is that he's not looking at Salient Divine Abilities in particular.
I meant trying to gain a divine rank as a Major Privilege. I can't see any GM letting that fly, and not just because I don't think you should use divine ranks per se in a game that's using Eclipse. In general, having different ways of representing godhood under the rules being in play simultaneously strikes me as incredibly messy. I much prefer a single system; it should definitely allow for different degrees of power, influence, etc. among gods, but entirely different systems representing the same thing? Not so much.
That's true, but the only reason Ydersius is in such a poor state to begin with is because Savith, a mortal 20th-level fighter with 6 mythic tiers (according to page 7 of Inner Sea Combat) was able to behead him to begin with. And, as you noted, they forgot that 18th-level characters (which the PCs should be by the time they reach the end of the adventure path) can just use mage's disjunction to potentially destroy the artifact-skull that houses most of Ydersius's essence, which could very well kill the god even worse than beating his avatar down.
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Quite the opposite, if you ask me: The cage is to keep her safe ('cause she can't fight back) and nothing else.
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