Bring Apples to Debate Class
"She's not just some brutish soldier who's bent on ruining Rainbow Dash's day," Rarity said. "Seraphimus is crafty, intelligent, and—most of all—she has something that she believes in!"
"Correction." Pinkie waved a hoof. "She had something to believe in! Maybe if Keris' bird-buddy had a chance of reuniting with her family after all this kerfluffle, then she'd have something to hold onto! But nuuuuuuuu! Verlax went and took a dump in that tuba! Now Commander Seraphimus has become Commander McJerkFace by a Factor of Eleven!"
"Which is all the more reason why Rainbow should give her a second chance," Twilight Sparkle said, hovering in the glowing manalight of Flynn's engine. "Seraphimus is as much a tragic victim of Verlaxion's deception as all the Rohbreddenites dying from stampeding windigoes!" She turned to look across the way. "Fluttershy, you know what it means to sympathize with others. With everything considered, shouldn't Seraphimus be given a second chance?"
"Of course, Twilight." Fluttershy nodded. "But I'm not certain that she's willing to give Rainbow or her friends a second chance."
"So, that's it, then?" Rarity frowned. "Because this poor wretch has grown soooo morbid and sooooo pitiful... we must erase all hope for her future by extinguishing her life should she happen to get in our way?"
"I'm certain that if Rainbow Dash could find a way around ending her life or the lives of other Rohbreddenites, she would." Fluttershy cast Rainbow a look. "But sometimes the choice is not so easy... or she may not even have a choice at all."
"And just what's so special about this 'Seraphimus' turkey anyways?!" Pinkie Pie cackled. "All she's done since Dashie has stumbled into this party is try and ruin her day! And the day for everypony! I mean... helllloooo! All-important-Austraeoh-destinyyyy, ya fuzzheads!"
"Pinkie, don't trivialize," Rarity snapped. "When the cracks began showing in Brye Chandler's foolhardy conspiracy, who broke her pursuit of Rainbow altogether to instead attempt to bring the cretin to justice?!" She waved a hoof. "Seraphimus! That's who! And that puts her in the same sympathetic category as Lieutenant Keris in my book. Only... she suffered far worse consequences than Keris ever did."
"Yes..." Fluttershy nodded. "Only after she proved herself to be stubborn-minded in Starkiss." She gulped. "You heard how she stonewalled Lieutenant Keris' peaceful attempts to illuminate her and the rest of the troops. There's something indomitably stubborn about that griffon. What happened to her family was terrible, but I do believe she was long pre-disposed against opening her mind long before Verlax stuck the knife in."
"But... for us to just decide that she's expendable... for us to auction her life away for a supposedly righteous cause..." Twilight Sparkle grimaced. "How could we rule out any chance of redemption for her? How can we rule out any redemption for anypony?"
"How can we find the flippin' time?!" Pinkie Pie pulled at her ghost-hair. "Oh my fuzzy goof-cakes, you guyz!" She half-squeaked-half-snarled. "We're not about to write a dissertation on poni poni poni ethics! Dashie has gotta make it to the Sixth Seed and beyond or else we're all dead!"
"Pinkie—" Rarity reached out.
"All of us! Deader than cold pizza!"
Rarity frowned. "But where does the forward-thinking excuses end? At what point will it become... inconvenient to kill for convenience?"
"I think Rainbow's done more than enough to avoid this kind of a scenario," Fluttershy said. She sighed. "But... even if what we've assumed from Echo's revelation is wrong... there will still come a time—sooner than we would like—where Rainbow Dash simply will have no other choice. It will be the enemy... or her quest." She gulped. "I don't like it any more than you do, and it's more than obvious by now that Verlax had long planned to prepare Rainbow Dash for this kind of a scenario... in her own twisted way."
"Right..." Twilight nodded. "...and it's up to us to be there for Rainbow Dash so she can make the right decision... her decision... and not Verlax's."
"But if it still ends up being the same decision..." Pinkie Pie shrugged. "...so what?! If Dashie and the rest of the world gets to sing campfire songs another day... th-that's a good thing... r-right?"
At last, the mares had run out of things to say. They stared at the interior deck of the Stardust between them.
Rainbow Dash finally stopped pacing. She looked at Twilight and Rarity to her right... then at Fluttershy and Pinkie to her left. After a few blinks, she gazed down the center. "You've been quiet all this time, AJ?" She winced—but nevertheless asked, "What do you think?"
Applejack "leaned" against the wall, her hat tilted forward. Upon hearing the question, she sighed into the tilted brim of her hat. "Is killin' wrong?" A gulp. "Yes. It sure as hay is."
Rainbow bit her lip.
"However... is lettin' Rainbow's ponies die for the sake of an idea also wrong?" She tilted her hat up, exposing thin green eyes. "Heck... I'm not so sure no more... but it certainly feels bad."
The others watched as she drifted through the group.
"I know I'm still catchin' up to this crazy eastward shindig and all..." Applejack squinted aside as she passed Rainbow Dash. "So... correct me if I'm wrong here... but didn't a bunch of innocent villagers die because this 'Shell' fella had survived as long as he did?"
Fluttershy bit her lip.
Rainbow clenched her jaws tight, glaring aside. The hairs on the back of her neck stood on end.
Applejack saw it. "Hmmm... well then..." She turned to look at the rest of the girls. "I think y'all are puttin' things too simple-like. It's not just the killin' that has bit poor ol' Rainbow in the keister. But it's all the not-killin' as well."
Rarity and Twilight looked to the floor.
Applejack floated back the way she came. "Ain't nothin' smart nor ethical 'bout thinkin' in the moment. Not all of us have been there. I like to think that I have—but that ain't no truth. If it was... I'd be in far worse sorts than I am now... heh... if you can believe that."
"But... killing someone like Seraphimus... isn't like putting down a member of your livestock, AJ." Twilight Sparkle sadly shook her head. "All things considered, it was never Rainbow Dash's place to even be out here... to have crossed paths with the Lead Claw of the Talon in the first place."
Applejack bore a bitter smirk. "While I appreciate ya tryin' to put it into farmin' terms for me to understand, Twilight... yer overcomplicatin' things again." She gazed at Rainbow Dash. "What did Shell have in common with Seraphimus, really?"
"He... uh..." Rainbow gulped. "He was a military dude... pressured by his government to take on some crazy, foreign menace... just like Seraphimus."
"Is that all, sugarcube?"
Rainbow stared at her. Her ears gradually drooped. "He had no family..." She shuddered. "Imre... killed herself in front of him... and... and th-that was it." She gulped. "He had nothing left."
"He had nothin' left..." Applejack slowly nodded. She gazed down at her fidgeting hooves. "Girls... I know that I've never really... r-really gone all that much about how my folks passed away..."
All of the mares looked up, blinking.
"...and... ahem..." Applejack's voice wavered. "...there's a reason for that. I... get mighty weak in the knees whenever I so much as think about Ma... about Pa... about the very few... very warm... very tender memories we all shared when we was whole. And... and sometimes I'd think that life was just some... cruel and heartless joke... to take my very own folks from me..." She sighed heavily. "...just like it's gone and taken Granny..."
Rainbow winced.
"And yet..." Applejack looked up, her eyes wet... but firm. "Apple Bloom's still there. Big Mac is still there. The farm... the apples... the ranch... all of Ponyville is waitin' on me to return." She took a deep breath. "As far as I'm concerned, I've got something to go back home to. All of us... we all got somethin' to return to."
Silence.
"A life without any of that... a life without warmth... without meanin'?" Applejack slowly shook her head. "I can't even imagine that. I don't want to imagine that. And—quite frankly—I wouldn't wish it on any hollow thing that crawls upon this earth... claws or hooves or no-matter." She turned to gaze at Rainbow Dash. "If you ask me... if another 'Shell' comes barreling at you... with the only flickerin' thing in that monster's mind bein' death... then I'd think it'd be a mighty cruel thing not to give it to her..."
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Even if she could potentially be reasoned with, I really don't think Rainbow should risk the results of another unchecked Shell. Seraphimus needs to be put down.
7445371
You bring up some good points, there. I guess it's still possible to remove her as a threat without murder.
On the other hand, though. I don't know if she'll have the luxury. Shell didn't burn down Lerris with a whole brigade of troops, IIRC.
Didn't Seraph say that she wasn't planning on returning to Starkiss after she killed Dash?
I'm reminded of Ken Amada's plan for October 4th in Persona 3. Killing Shinjiro Aragaki as revenge for his mother, then committing suicide because he had nothing left to live for.
Seraph is a death seeker, is she seeking her own death, or Dash's? Both, evidently.
Pinkie is reacting with instinct, she doesn't want to die. She's letting that dictate her emotional state and thinking... can we blame her?
-Companions are abound, frozen spectres hound. Utaan.
I'll restat my previous sentiment that Seraphimus is likely, yes, trying to commit suicide via Dash. Doesn't mean you have to grant that wish. Crippling her would work too. Debatable if that's worse or not, but it is an option.
Still wish this conversation wasn't all about Seraphimus. The moral quandary of the possibility of killing Central Guard soldiers should be just as much if not more so the focus here, for any of their deaths would be even more tragic, given many of them probably still have family to return to and aren't as far gone mentally as Seraphimus. I keep saying Dash needs to stop running and choose a spot to fight with the intent to disable the pursuit force, but I'm guessing this will end up in a bloodbath at Leaks Plummet.
7445419
nope
all on his lonesome, in the rain, like a door-to-door salesman of death
- Winston Churchill
How are we so sure that Sera doesn't have something to return to? Just because she thinks she has nothing left?
The Luminards of the Quade thought they lost everything, but only those who went down the path of despair and literally beat themselves to death actually did lose everything. What about the others? They gave themselves the opportunity to let go, and ended up gaining more than they lost in the process.
Keris really needs to introduce Sera to Sonikah. Show her that she can still do a lot of good to the world, that she's still loved and admired, and that the griffon who worked the hardest to protect the citizens of Robhredden is still alive.
7445447 There really isn't a way to disable the pursuit force chasing her. Short of crippling Chandler and Seraph, even if Keris, as the next highest ranking soldier took command, there's no way he could justify turning the whole group back under the pretence of protecting the Defence Minister and Seraph.
The best Dash could hope to achieve would be placing Keris in charge so he can stop the group from killing the herald on the spot if they catch them.
And sure, if they did stop to fight, they might be able to cripple... what? a few hundred. There are over 20,000 soldiers chasing her iirc, and Dash is no Lu Bu.
7445475
I'm with you on this. Just because someone has lost everything they hold dear and don't know any meaning to their life... doesn't mean they can't come back from that brink.
Heck, didn't Rainbow? Multiple times?
7445447
Look I know this is fiction but there is something I want to point out,I actually did some research on this,IRL in a fight where someone is trying to kill you this is actually not easy to do. It also puts you in far more danger than necessary; heck most of the time you end up killing the person anyway as one slip up could hit a vital area and they would die. Broken bones could hit vital organs or arteries ect. I know this is fiction and all but I just felt I should point out as noble as that idea is, and it is something to strive for; there is a reason real martial artist try not to let things get to the point of a fight at all.
This debate in the story is pretty good everyone is bringing up so many very good points, I personally think Dash should give her one more chance to stand down, explain things to her and if she refuses then it is time to defend herself.
Point taken. You know, it has been a while since something exploded. At least Big Show's bringing the stupid.
Why is this story still going? Why hasn't it stopped at chapter 200 and then the sequel beginning right where this one left off?
7445488
20,000? I don't recall ever seeing such a number mentioned. If it was that is a truly ludicrous number that, to sound like a Quibble Pants, is completely unrealistic. There's no way such a large force could move quickly enough to catch up to Dash's group. It can take forces that size weeks if not months to travel any distance, especially when undersupplied.
No, I'm pretty sure it has to be a much smaller force going after the Herald. Even a thousand troops would be kind of a bulky force to try and move quickly after a small group. Maybe five hundred or so would be more realistically reasonable.
Regardless, taking down the entire force isn't needed, just disabling or capturing Seraphimus and Chandler so that Keris could take over. As you say he couldn't stop pursuit, but he could misdirect it once Dash and the Herald got in the clear. Send the Guard on a wild goose chase in the wrong direction. Problem is now they know to get to Bleak's Plummet, so the best Dash could hope for is Keris to slow the pursuit's progress long enough for her to get through to the other side of the world.
This was really more of idea that would've helped Dash if she'd thought to do it prior to the farm, and I brought it up to emphasize that I feel Dash, for all of her experiences, still doesn't seem to be able to think through any plans besides "fly east fast". I get that's her thing, but you'd think after two million words of story she'd have gotten a bit better at dealing with being hunted by an army, perhaps to the point where she could come up with better ideas to deal with it rather than to keep running until she's stuck in the middle of a bunch of people dying over her.
Perhaps I just find the situation a tad frustration, since this feels like one big repeat of Ledomare and Lerris and I'm really hoping this turns out different.
And hey, Dash could go Dynasty Warriors, to a degree. She hasn't really done much with her awesomeness of late. Like her ability to create tornados? I can't remember the last time she did that, or used any of her weather control skills to useful effect. A tornado might've taken down some windegos, for example. So would repeated Sonic Rainbooms. I don't think she's bothered to even try either.
7445559
Because Imploding Colon realised he could not finish this book in 200 chapters without each chapter being extremely long and taking days to write. He felt that for the health of the story and his own writing to extend it past the 200 chapters to finish the story properly.
7445539
I agree that realistically it is a lot harder to disable an opponent than to just kill them, but that's part of what makes it a correct moral choice. If doing the morally right thing was easy then everyone would do it without question or issue. The test of a person's quality isn't whether or not they're doing what's easiest to do in order to ensure their own survival, but what they're willing to risk in order to protect others.
That said, I'm not saying Dash can't take a life or she's a terrible person. I'm saying that I just want to see her doing all that she's able to to avoid it until it can't be avoided any longer, and that perhaps a little bit of forethought into her actions could help with that.
Also, while I prefer general realism, I can accept a certain amount of hand waving and cartoon physics in a fight if it fits the story or characters. In MLP universe ponies can survive a lot of punishment without dying, as we've all seen. Even in this story Dash has usually busted heads without killing. So I don't really see a problem with her dislocating a few shoulders or breaking a few limbs when fighting the Central Guard, doing all she can to keep from killing ponies and griffins who are fundamentally good people but are just being misguided by lies she herself helped create. As for Seraphimus, breaking her physically could still kill her, but it may still prove the better option than outright slaying.
As much of a stupid waste as killing is, I can make my peace with it in certain situations. The world is a better place without Shell, for example, in it.
My problem is two-fold: 1.) Killing because it's what Verlax arranged; and 2.) Going into a situation already resigned to killing, or Rainbow thinking it's her right to kill because she's the Austraeoh. The first is just repugnant on principle, and the second is a very slippery (and dangerous) slope. If, when confronted with a foe beyond reason, killing is really the only way forward, then so be it. But harmony (see magic [vis-Ã -vis friendship]) should always be the goal striven towards. In other words, virtue ethics > consequentialism and deontological ethics, beeyotch.
As for Seraphimus, I don't know. I'd prefer her to live, partly for reasons that Piexes laid out, and partly because finding a way not to kill her would essentially be a great big middle finger raised in Verlax's direction. It might be asking a lot for Seraphimus to have a change of heart right now, but we must remember the sixth seed approacheth, and if anything could open Seraphimus' eyes it's machine worlds, otherworldly powers, and voices from the heavens.
Aj with the honest bombs
It isn't up to you, it's up to a lemur. And whether or not he's consumed massive quantities of Dr. Pepper at the time of his decision.
Don't start sentences with 'and', Midnight!
7445575 Oh, okay
derpicdn.net/img/2012/11/30/167559/medium.png
I think I'm going to have to jump on board team Twilight on this one, mostly for the reasons 7445586 and 7445475 laid out. Dash acting as judge, jury, and executioner when Seraph has yet to commit any crime is murder no matter how you choose to look at it.
I thought AJ's argument was pretty weak as well. She's assuming that two ponies she's never met will react to the same circumstances in the exact same manner. Would Fluttershy slaughter an entire village if she were in the same situation as Shell?
7445447
I mean, that's always on the table, but the other consideration is whether or not it's worth the effort. If Seraphimus is going to just let herself die once Rainbow escapes to the other side, then why bother taking the time and risk to cripple her?
At this point, dying at the hand of her sworn enemy is probably how Seraphimus would want it to end. Killed by the same pony who killed everything she loved.
EDIT: And then I read the rest of your comment. Still, I don't know that it's any kinder or nobler to rob her of the death she wants in favor of a less poetic death.
7445794
They are not exactly planning murder or decide about Seraphimus fate there, they are not making a decision that would cause them to turn back, kill her and then go on.
What they are doing is making a plan for the eventuality that Seraphimus might come after them with murder in mind, which is actually the case but they don't know that yet.
So they are not exactly acting as judge, jury and executioner, they are preparing for an eventuality because it would be a rather bad idea to have the discussion about wether or not Rainbow should go all in or not while the fight is already going on.
This discussion is simply determining how far they are willing to go if they are cornered and all other attempts have failed.
I think that they are looking at things the wrong way. Instead of trying to figure out whether or not killing Seraphimus is justified, they should be trying to find ways for both Seraph and Rainbow to get out of the confrontation alive.
But who would win? Shell or Seraphimus?
7445955 I don't think anybody is asserting that Rainbow should just roll over and surrender if killing Seraphimus is the only way forward. Twilight and Rarity are arguing that Dash needs to at least try to end things as bloodlessly as possible, Fluttershy is being reasonable and reminding them all it may not be possible, while AJ is cold-bloodedly implying that Seraphimus needs to be put out of her misery.
I think the crux of the issue is that Dash is worried that letting Seraphimus live could possibly lead to another Lerris down the road. If that's the case and Rainbow kills Seraphimus solely to prevent something like that, then I really can't see how it wouldn't be considered murder.
7446118
Limbs can heal over time. Mostly. I've seen inspiring sports anime that prove being crippled can lead to a journey of self discovery. Granted Seraphimus isn't exactly inspirational sports anime material, but hey, in a perfect world Dash could just hash this out over tea. Or Seraphimus would have the wisdom to realize Verlax is the gigantic thundercunt that murdered her family and many more innocent people as well. As it stands Dash has the options of murder in self defense, delivering a crippling series of beat downs, or somehow breaking through layers of psychosis somehow via the power of harmony/friendship. Or something else happens. Kind of anyone's guess at this point.
I have to agree with Fluttershy and Applejack here. You know that saying, "Violence isn't the answer." Well, sometimes you can only fight violence with violence. It's either that or die. And I like that Fluttershy isn't taking sides in this argument. Yes, killing should be a last resort. No, Dash might not be able to solve this conflict peacefully. It's nice to see she's not taking either side.
As for Applejack, I'm not sure I agree with all she said, but she's right. She gave everyone a nice reality check, reminding them that sometimes not killing someone has led to a huge tragedy. Good on both Fluttershy and Applejack for making a lot of sense.
7445475 Another thing to mention is that Verlax isn't around anymore to guide things back on the rails she set up. Maybe an alternative option will show up for Dash that Verlax can't shut down by virtue of being dead.
Personally I see AJ's point. It's preferable to not kill anyone, but in this case it causes everyone to be put into undue danger. Seraphimus is very skilled, can fly, and has a death wish, hoping to knock out both herself and the Rouge in one fell swoop. At this point reasoning with her has been shown to be ineffective, as she is hiding behind her religion and using it as a justification. When someone goes into that mental state and then into combat, I don't think Keris can talk her out of a suicide run.
As has been mentioned, yes, Dash could try and only helplessly cripple every enemy she sees. That kind of attack only works when you don't have hundreds of armored guards piling you from all sides. There is a high chance that some guards will die. Both because Windigoes are liable to crash the conflict and because flying around in rocky, stormy areas is a risk unto itself. Crippling Seraphimus might work, but is also ridiculously difficult. RD could well kill her by accident or see her fall off a spire into a watery tomb. The odds are stacked against a healthy resolution. My guess is the Herald is outnumbered at least 50:1 and not all of them are solo fighters. With that in mind, you basically have to choose between making sure the guards die as little as possible, or reflexively bashing their heads in to focus on crippling Seraphimus, the highly skilled commander (in their eyes) who has no qualms with sending hordes of guards to die as long as they might try to restore honor to Verlax.
There's also some that would say crippling her so completely is crueler than letting her die the death she wants.
In a complete twist of everyone's expectations, after the most intense running-philosophical-hoof to talon-fight yet, Seraphimus joins the group. maybe
Also, one would think that when Applejack's listing off things she still has, she'd have listed the rest of the girls there.
7446311
I can see that happens, she has lost a battle against rainbow, and nothing is keeping her on this side of the plane anymore. the herald need more epic griffons for the dark side.
Rainbow's still going to agonize over the decision, but Applejack may have just tipped the scales.
7446311 She may have figured it went without saying.
Applejack say that Seraph has nothing left but that's not true. Even if she don't see it, she still have Keris and the rest of the Talon. I think it will be them who will bring the answer to this situation.
7445446 7445544
Seems like Pinkie's taking the "Can't laugh if we're dead" position. I wonder if stopping Chrysalis sooner would've left more alive, but a dead (instead of repentant) Changeling Queen.
Its a good thing Windigoes cant just pop into existance whereever tehre is conflict, or Flynn would have to have a rerigerated hold.
So many arguments, I suepect Dash is just going to have to hit Seraph until her body, spirit or world breaks.
Calling it now, Keris stops Rainbow from killing Seraphimus.
I'm a little surprised we're having this debate, I would have expected that the girls would have been on the same page after they got over the Quade. I'm even more surprised that it's Twilight voting to spare Seraphimus and Fluttershy voting she has to die. I would have expected the reverse, surely Twilight who is the most logical of the bunch can see that there is no other option?
Heck it comes down to Applejack to be the voice of reason with:
Everyone in Dash's party with any sense knows Seraphimus and Chandler have to go not only to get the army off their backs but also for the good of the Rohbredden people to help them move on.
7447169
I could see that, but I don't think Seraphimus will be stopped even if Rainbow backs down. I predict it may be more likely that Keris ends up being the one to end Seraphimus to spare Dash from killing again.
7445560
There WAS such a number mentioned way back, but it was referring to the number of troops deploying to block the Herald's access to Starkiss. I remember because I commented at the time that the logistics required to support that many troops in that hostile environment would be very difficult to implement at any distance from a railhead or port.
This time, however, the troops in pursuit are all flyers -- pegasi and griffins -- and they are supposed to be the elite of the central guard, not all the draftee/volunteer rabble they threw at Starkiss. I'm totally guessing here, but I'm in agreement with you that somewhere between 500 and 1500 is probable, much more likely to be on the low end of that range. Still a lot of combat power compared to RD's group. Not going to be easy to pull their punches when fighting such overwhelming numbers.
7446215
The big difference between Shell and Seraphimus is that he didn't care about anypony else and had no issues with anyamount of collateral damage. He just didn't care, even worse, he just saw others as a path to leverage on Rainbow Dash. Seraphimus certainly doesn't share either those beliefs or attitudes. Others are precious to her. That's what she still has left to live for. In fact I think the biggest hole in Verlax's entire plan is none other than Seraphimus herself!
7447169
No, I think Raibow stops Keris from killing Seraphimus!
7447353 Compelling argument, but the onext counter I offer is that she wouldn't hold sarosians to that standard. To her they're second-class, and possibly expendable. She can also rationalize soldier deaths as either preventing civilian deaths or "they knew what they were signing up for". Besides, I'm not sure Seraphimus as she is now can think clearly in Rainbow's presence.
7446050 100 Shell-sized Seraphimuses (seraphimi? Seraphimode?) or 100 Seraphimus-sized Shells?
7447911
That depends on one's point of view, I imagine. For me, there's very few things I'd consider more abhorrent than taking a life, especially if it isn't in circumstances that all but force it as the only method to preserve the lives of others. In the case of, say, crippling another to prevent them from harming others, but leaving them alive... well, no, I don't see it as worse than killing them. Largely because no matter how crippled or damaged a person may be, as long as they're alive, there is hope. Life is everything. All things that are good come from being alive. All things that are bad do too, but once one is dead, all that potential becomes zero. That is the thing I find most abhorrent in death, that all potential turns to zero.
True, one (supposedly) can't feel pain after death, but what is pain but a sensation, whether it be physical or emotional? A sensation that can be overcome. Sometimes through one's own willpower. Sometimes through the persistent help of others who care for you. Sometimes just through sheer serendipity. Regardless, pain can be overcome, no matter the amount, as long as one is alive.
Once you're dead, even that small chance is gone. I know not what comes after death, I only know that once it happens, there's no going back, and that is the thing that makes me feel to my core that resisting it in all its forms is fundamental to being a moral person.
But that's just my opinion on the matter. I may take my opinion seriously but I don't make the demand that anybody else does.
7447306 I think the reason that Twilight is voting to spare Seraphimus is because she's very much a goody two-shoes. I don't mean that as an insult. I'm just saying that Twilight is blinded by her view of everything. She's lived in a (debatably) perfect world her entire life and is suddenly thrust into this dark and grim land. She doesn't understand that not everything can be solved with a heartwarming song and a hug. She probably should have realized this back in the Quade or, heck, Red Barge. I also noticed that as Twilight was listening to Rainbow and Celestia talk, she acted as if Celestia would condone the act of killing. Rainbow Dash knows perfectly well that Celestia and Luna have made some hard decisions before, but I'm not sure Twilight knows that.
Wow, that is a very large paragraph. Yikes.
7446744
Yeah, sure. I was commenting on a meta-reading of that line: ironic in that that's precisely what the story's been doing for pretty much all of Utaan and at least a good chunk on Ynanhluutr.
To engage, though . . .
And:
The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant
Applejack's euthanasia argument is an ethical stop-gap, serviceable only because we can't heal some things yet. Seraphimus isn't dying, just in pain. The only valid justification of her death is the protection of those around her, and while Rainbow's going to need to psych herself up to it now, that decision should be made as late as possible.
Ultimately, however, responsibility for Leris is Shell's, not even partly Rainbow's for failing to kill him earlier. Learn the lesson that the world isn't perfect but for Godssake don't blame yourself.
Seraphimus's life is entirely in her own claws.
As others have been saying: this will all come down to Seraphimus' own choices. This will either end in peace, or death and fire- And only she can decide that. Either Rainbow will have to kill her, to prevent another Shell, or our favorite stubborn gryphon will bounce back. We can merely watch, and hope.
...I understand I'm probably not adding anything new to this.
If Seraphimus really is trying to commit suicide by hunting down Rainbow, it would end up going in her favor anyway.
Seraphimus no longer has to deal with the pain of losing all she's loved, yet at the same time has further painted Rainbow Dash as the villainous murderer everyone believes her to be. It would be like dealing the final blow to the image she's created.
To everyone saying you can't choose who lives and who dies:
You're doing that anyway. By NOT killing Seraphimus, you're gambling with the lives of everyone she might kill. It's no different than rolling a die from Rainbow's perspective. You might not actively kill someone, but you may let multiple others die as a result. Depending on your view of morality, that might not be as bad, but you're still deciding whether Seraphimus dies, or whether multiple others might die. Mathematically, I'd estimate the expected number of deaths to be less with Seraphimus dead, but that again is irrelevant if you assign different value in action vs non-action.
Philosophy!
Sad to say it, but Sera will have to die. Unless somehow Rainbow pulls off a conversion once Sera's on the brink of death, I don't see another way. The question now is will Sera die as part of a fight, or will Rainbow have to play executioner and end her once she's already beaten?
That was a damn nice speech AJ. Gotta say, I didn't expect something like that out of her, but it was nice to hear it nonetheless. And Fluttershy of all ponies... that was a nice surprise. This was a good few chapters to binge today. Tomorrow, more.
~SolidFire