Twipet
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11 down vote without a comment? Do people actually join the FoE group so they may downvote new stories as fast as possible?
6007627
As far as I can tell, yes.
6007627
Pfft. The voting system on FimFiction is bonkers anyway.
I saw a story featured that was basically a horde of dwarves building a tunnel beneath Canterlot while singing the "diggy diggy dig" song over and over and the ponies watching them in confusion. That was it. So, I wouldn't put too much stock in the red vs green bar.
Damm I love this writer
6007627 That and all stories show up on the front page when they're published/updated.
I loved it!
6007667
What.
This was a well thought out and executed story. Aside from the genre and [fetishized] content, there's little reason why this would have the heat ratio it has after the fact.
That said, 20,000 words is an enormous single-story chapter, so I'd suggest cutting it up into sections. Nonetheless, I did somehow read all 20,000 words in about an hour or so.
6008968 It was originally projected to be about half that in wordcount.
Hate the setting and the universe this is based on, as you might probably know by now, but I will not deny this was a very well thought story. While I can't fave this simply because it comes as a cannon story for the FOE universe I will grant you a like, it was a good read.
PS. I came upon this thanks to the "popular stories" section.
6009601 Keep up the good work. You working on anything else like this for the future?
6009622 Sun's Setting, Extra Sprinkles, and several other stories.
6008968 It has the heat because people despise the setting. You could make the best story about sunshine and rainbows, but slap the Fall of Equestria tag on it and people will dislike bomb it just for that.
6008302 Meh, I've got a story that hit 20 red before the first green thumb was cast. The comments are a better way to judge a story.
6007667 I just read that. . .
When I heard you mention having an upcoming release recently on the forums I'd expected Sun's Setting, but this was not unwelcome. Much as I'm most eager to see more of how Sunny falls and the earliest stages of the invasion, it was still intersting to see Sunny at this secondar psycological breaking her in.
I also rather appreciate how like the other Hearth's fic this one also features a similare insight into the cultural lore that informs the caribou mind set. It provides insight and context to better under stand their society. It "humanizes", without undercutting that they are still the villains.
I will agree with other comments that the story ran rather long for a one-shot. I think the ponit where Vestri drugs Sunny could have made good natural breaking point to split this into two chapters. The intro perhaps also ran a bit longer than it needed to. It was effective enough at setting up Sunny's attitude "problem", but flet like it dragged at points.
The real meat of this story was the aformentioned lore and of course Sunny's punishment. While not agreeing with the caribous misogyny, I can still appreciate the cunning in their methids of enforcing it. Vestri show an impressive u derstandibg of his mare and what it takes to manipulate and mold her into his perfect pet. While certanly lacking in kindness, Sunny was more distraught over the bordem rather than the cruelty, which fits quite well with her high society elitism. Much as she fears the harshness of being punshed by Vestri's brother, living a few weeks in obscure mediocrity was by far a more effective way to teach her humility.
The best part being in how he even went so far as to pretend abandoning her so as to further drive his lesson home that no matter how much he might do to lavish her in relative luxury, it's always entirely his whim and that she is ultimately as disposable as any other mare. I do kind of feel especially sorry for Fine Line, however, having been little more than a pawn in all this in seemingly herself also being led on to belive that Vestri might keep her as a permanant replacment. It's awkward to use the word in relation to any caribou, but I'd like to imagine Vestri at least had the "decency" to explain things to her before ultimately just sending her bacj to her old master without warning.
Anyway, thanks for an entertaining read,as we as another example of despite being such a fetush driven setting FoE is more than just mindless clop. These are the kind of fics that hold my intrest and inspire my own creativity.
6011280 I've been planning to split it at some point, just haven't been sure where to do so. I might do it there.
I saw this update and I wondered why it had after being completed then I looked at the chapters and saw you broke them up as per suggestion
Confusion has been abated
..... DAMN IT! You actually make me LIKE Vestri here! HOW DID YOU DO THAT!?
Seriously, though. I like this story. Its much better than the other stories for this series.
6015058 I showed him as something other than an evil overlord Caribou.
6015072
I don't know about "other" than evil, but Vestri continues to be a more "complex" type of evil. That is to say he's not and has never been a Card Carrying complete monster. He's still rather remorseless in his acts cruelty, but he doesn't commit those acts maliciously or without purpose. He has standards and in his own twisted way is even compassionate. He does genuinely care about Sunny and want the best for her in her new life as his favored pet, but that must still always be kept in context of the fact that he's responsible for ruining her old life in the first place.
I wouldn't ever quite go so far as to say he's likable, but he is at least somewhat admirable.
6015058
On the other hand, I come to dislike Sunny more and more. She sends other ponies off to re-education camps from which they occasionally don't return without even caring what happens to them, just to keep her own privileges. Not to mention that she also thinks about using her influence and position to take revenge on a mare in the same situation as hers instead of even thinking about showing some solidarity. And even in general she enjoys her job of evaluating, disciplining and denouncing others far too much. Note that this very story precisely shows that she does have a choice: She could refuse to do this job and risk being sent back to Threon or to Ivangir. There is literally nothing that forces her to strive for the label "naughty", or for Vestri's approval, that is solely her own ambition. When you give her the choice to either eat dirt or force others to eat dirt, you know how she'll choose. I occasionally get the feeling with her that she doesn't even realize what she does to others, and that does not make things any better in this case.
6011280
I really doubt he did. Even if we assume that Vestri cared for Fine Line's feelings (which I don't), she still had to put up a good show for Sunny, and she's both more willing and more able to do so if she thinks it's for real.
6015926 That was entirely on purpose, too. While Sunrise has fallen into the caribou's system, she and Cadance are the top two mares. Cadance is the poster 'Good girl', the mare every mare should be (And believe me, she's spoiled as FUCK), and Sunrise is the one that turns other mares into Good Girls. NCN and I have considered that they have a kind of rivalry going, each trying to come out on top of the other. In fact this entire storyline came about because of an idea to have Cadance switched with one of her maids and a want by me to do the whole 'Naughty or Nice' list. It gave me the chance to take a few concepts and place them all in one story. However, Sunrise has been nicely put into her place by the end, so a great deal of that behavior will be gone. I showed Sunrise being spoiled, and now she's realized 'I don't want to lose Vestri. I want to behave for him."
6016897
Yeah, that doesn't make sense.
So after this, she'll not be sending ponies to re-education camps any more without caring for what happens to them, just in order to keep her own privileges, or to keep Vestri's approval?
I wasn't talking about her being "spoiled" or "well-behaved" in Vestri's eyes. I was talking about choices, and about moral integrity. She commits crimes against civilization for Vestri, not to mention crimes against her fellow mares, and if anything, she's even more inclined to please her Master no matter the cost for others now. If she cared at all for anypony else but herself, she would do all she can to go back to the logistics job. Maybe she could even become friends with Spring Flower, so they both don't have to go through this hell alone.
As I see it, Sunrise has learned literally nothing from this little exercise. "Spoiled" and "egoistic" are still the two words that characterize her best at the end of this little story. And to be clear: The fact that she doesn't want to lose Vestri no matter the cost for others isn't the solution, it's part of the problem.
Also, I wonder: is Spring Flower Threon's property, or is she state-owned?
6017798 Not quite. The issue Vestri saw was everything was going to her head and she felt like she was owed everything. The 'little' punishment told Sunrise this: You're just a mare, like any other mare. And everything you are given is given because we want to. If we want to, we can just as easily take it away.
In Sunrise's mind, she's doing the job given to her. Just like Cheerilee, who's doing it because somebody has to and it's better her, who's more sympathetic. Or Cherry Jubilee, who does it to retain some sort of power. Each of the 'higher Reds' has a purpose as to why they do what they do. Sunrise doesn't know what goes on at Re-Education Facilities. All she knows is a mare is greatly misbehaving, so they get sent to it, and they come back far more behaved. Probably some stallions help train the mares better. If one doesn't come back, she assumes it's because they were given to a master elsewhere in Equestria who could more easily deal with them. The big thing is this: She has never suggested anyone be Blanked. She still has her morals. If she knew what went on at Re-Education camps, you sure as hell can bet that she'd be refusing to ever send a mare there again. If she knew, she'd be hunting mares down she sent and doing everything she can to apologize to them. She wants mares to have loving masters, but she also knows how little power she has in that. Even if she has to show a mare (Like that zebra before) 'this is what happens if you go Black. Behave, please your Master, and you will be taken care of.'
Sunrise has an ego, sure. She got that after constantly being told "You're a mare, but a better mare than them." Spring poked at her ego a bit and Sunrise contemplated having an annoyance given back to Spring to have her sweat a little. And she sure as hell was spoiled, which this story solved. But she's in the grey area. Course, in Fall, there's very little outright good or evil. Sure, the caribou are evil, and there are still some good people like Big Mac, but even Big Mac falls into the grey because of what he has to do to keep his sister and farm. Sunrise isn't evil. She's not even close. But she's not outright good, either. She's doing the best she can with her new station in life. Plus, a good deal of Stockholm is thrown in there.
6018110
Nice rationalization, but her willful ignorance and her apparent unwillingness to even think about this is itself already a moral failure. It also isn't just about the blanking. The very act of sending a mare to such a camp is already a crime against civilization. As I see it, Sunny is responsible for anything that happens to a mare she decides to send to a re-education camp precisely because she doesn't know and care what happens there.
On the other hand, it's good to know that Sunrise would be willing to make amends if she knew the truth. This actually does raise my opinion of her. Also, another point that could be made in her defense is that she's not the only character in FoE who indulges in this kind of willful ignorance for the sake of her own survival.
6018091 It's a mix. All the mares there are State-owned, though they answer to specific stallions or caribou who have taken them as their mares. If a mare proves herself enough, she may find herself with an actual Master one day. Some just like what they have. A guaranteed meal and bed as long as they behave and do their work. It's better than what other mares have, especially for the Blacks. Others want to prove themselves and get out from under Throtr's strictness. A Place for Everything and Everything in its Place.
This is what Fine Line and Spring Flower both want to achieve. Be noticed enough for a stallion/caribou to take them under their wing, and then prove themselves good enough to go to a real Master.
6018136
So Spring Flower is state-owned then? If a stallion or stag would want to take her as his own, how exactly would that work? Could he just buy her? If yes, from whom?
6018131 No, quite literally no mare knows. XD In my headcanon, mares are just told they're trained there and get sent back. That may change at some point once we reveal what goes on there. You have to understand, if a caribou tells her that 'they get trained to behave', and she doesn't know what actually goes on there, what is she to think? They don't hide Switching and Blanking. The caribou are actually quite loud about what goes on. So why would they hide what goes on in a Facility? To Sunrise, quite literally, that's what goes on. Why would she think otherwise? You might as well ask the same of everything else she does. What happens to the mares she visits to go Red afterward? Well, the obvious answer is they get a Red Collar. But what if they're just Blanked in secret? What about those zebras? Obviously they get sold at auction, right? What if they instead are given to the gryphons to eat?
What you're trying to do is claim "Sunrise should know EVERYTHING that's going on." and ignoring the logic behind it. Let's say you're at a job at work and your boss just starts chatting with you like he does every day. Occasionally, he asks you about your coworkers, so you tell him about them. Hey, nothing bad going on, he just wants to know since he mostly stays in his office, but you work with them everyday. Gossip gossip gossip. Later, you find out a round of layoffs came and some of those coworkers were laid off. Reasons were given, but it wasn't linked to you. Well, hey, firings happen sometimes. Natural part of holding a job. Until later you find out you were the one responsible because you gave your boss the information needed. Sure, you feel terrible afterward, you feel it's your fault. You're the one who got your coworkers fired. Did you do it on purpose? No, it was harmless gossip.
In Sunrise's mind, and what she's been told, she's just sending mares off to get some extra training. Why would she think otherwise? The caribou don't hide things, and she's the Council Bitch, she sees what goes on in the meetings anyway. Why would she have reason to think otherwise? Fuck yes the caribou do terrible things, I'm not saying they don't. But if Sunrise were to ever find out what she'd done to those mares that got sent to Re-Education Facilities, it'd break her. There's a big difference between what she does now, and purposely sending mares to these things with the knowledge of what she was doing.
6018170 Well, if a stallion or caribou wanted her, and she wasn't 'leashed' yet, so to speak, they'd just claim her. They become her handler/master in the facility. From there, she has to prove herself. Once that happens, nooooo clue! I actually never got that far into things. I probably will if I ever do a story for Fine Line. And if I do, the ideas on what goes on may change.
6018213
No, I'm saying that sending a mare to a reeducation camp is at least a moral failure even if she doesn't know what's going on there - and the fact that knowing what was going on would break her actually (sort of) proves this. If she doesn't know the consequences of sending a mare away but nonetheless does it, she shoulders at least some part of the responsibility for what happens after that. But to be fair: The fact that she'd be willing to accept this responsibility even retroactively if she learned what was going on does raise my opinion of her.
Wait, so she knows everything that's going on in the council meetings, but she has no idea about what goes on in the reeducation camps? Where is it decided what goes on in the camps, if not in council?
As I said, this is a point that actually does raise my opinion of her.
6018230
So, in other words, any stallion or stag could just claim her, but he can't move her to another job or place?
6018271 That's her position until Throtr or one of his main underlings say so.
6018260 She's not in every meeting, but she's in a majority of them. So she gets to see what goes on behind the scenes for the most part. Right now, how the Re-Education Facilities came to be or everything about them I don't think is fully worked out yet. So that may change on how and where they came to be.
6018413
Ah, I see. Any idea what reasons might convince them to give her away?
6018427 I see it as not only a facility for mares to do work, but also a training facility on the sideline. Like I said, it's still in the works and I'll have something hammered out if I ever do a story for Fine Line.
6018447
Mmmh... I guess I'll have to wait then. I had hoped for a little more information on this particular question, but I guess I'll have no luck with that right now. Never mind then, I'll wait. No need to rush things.
6018110
"Good" might be in short supply, but there is plenty of "evil". FoE is more or less a Black and Gray Morality setting. There are very obvious villains, but not really any true heroes, or at least anyone who tries being a hero doesn't last long. Honestly, that's one of the things I appreciate, I enjoy reading about a bleak world where everyone is at least to some extent morally compromised by necessity.
As for Sunny herself... well first let me be clear that I very much find her to be a compelling character to read about, but at least in so far as I'm concerned she pretty much falls fully into the black side of the morality spectrum. In fact, I might even argue that she's darker than Vestri, who at least has some minor redeeming qualities. Sunny however, is indulgently selfish and petty. She might not be an overt villain herself, but she is instead a collaborator which is almost worse. There's an old saying that evil can only triumph where good men choose not to act, but Sunny takes it several steps further. Not only does she help the caribou commit atrocities, but she actually enjoys doing it.
Yes, there is the Stockholm factor, and while that might explain her attitude and actions, it can't excuse them. Again though, none of this is meant as any kind of complaint. Personally, I find the tragedy of her story is only made all the more poignant by the fact that she falls into such retched depravity herself.
6021125
There's also the factor of how much de-horning affected Sunny's brain.
6039650
Potentially, yes. Although while I've seen that suggested as a possible reasoning for why there are unicorns red-collars. I'm not really in any position to comment on whether or not that's really the case, however, I think it's also worth noting that likewise most unicorns we've ever met (especially those who are now red-collars) are former members or aspirants of the elite. Indeed the show has generally suggested that unicorns have a longstanding history as Equestria's noble/lead cast. So likewise it makes sense that the ponies most use to living in luxurious comfort would also be the ones most willing to trade dignity to retain it -- horns or no horns.
Conversely there's the similar supposition that pegasi are more rebellious because of the pain in their plucked wings. Again though, to look at their own cultural legacy...
...that is to say they are historically the military cast of Equestria, and given that most royal gauges are pegasi, it seems to be a tradition that still holds true. It's would only makes sense for the most aggressively militant pony tribe to likewise be the most defiantly rebellious of any invaders -- wings or no wings.
Still regardless of any affect the loss of her horn might have had on Sunny submissvness (be it biological or just psychological trauma), that still doesn't really excuse rather blatant moral failings outside of simply obeying her master. Yes, she is herself be a victim of the caribou's cruel misogynic tyranny, but that in no way makes it less evil for her to likewise victimize others.
6040471
The points about Pegasi make a lot of sense.
It's also not just the pain of a wing sheath but lacking the freedom of the skies as well. Pegasi were meant to fly; being stuck on the ground fundamentally goes against their being. With the Unicorns, there's a large possibility that the dehorning process creates some sort of chemi-magical imbalance in the brain.
There's that as well, yes. However much her judgement is impaired by her dehorning, it's still well enough to understand that she feels bad for subjecting other slaves to more serious forms of abuse.
Hmm... note to self: Count slaves by tribe, ask about Cadance's capacity for empathy with other slaves.
There could be, and if that what the folks in charge of things want to go with, then so be it.
Personally though, I don't really care for it because it feels a bit to much like making excuses. As if to say that unlike the other two tribes, unicorn mares just don't really get any choice at all in the matter of submission -vs- resistance. To me it rather undermines any potential complexity of characters like Sunny if their compliance is only the result of what more or less amounts to brain damage, as opposed to their own personal decision.
What I enjoy most about FoE is the psychological edge of how each character responds and adapts to the world they've been forced to live in. It's one thing when a mare's will is broken down through repeated acts of degradation, but making it as simple as removing a unicorn mare's horn just feels too much like "easy mode", and so makes me less interested to read about those particular characters.
Debatable... she seems to take a rather perversely genuine pleasure in getting to decide the fate of other mares. I mean, sure, she wants them to all to pick red, but it's hard to view that as any kind compassion considering that she herself gets punished for each mare that goes black instead. Simply put no matter what lies she hides be hind to maintain her own delusions of being "good", she rather seems like any petty bureaucrat exercising the small amount of privilege and power she's been granted to boost her own ego.
6018447
I have yet another question about Spring Flower. Is she an Earth Pony, a Pegasus, or a Unicorn?
Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't found the answer to that question in the chapter...
6052842
I really don't buy the chemical imbalance theory. There's simply too much that speaks against it. It doesn't account for any irregularities, like the fact that there actually are black collar unicorns, and quite a few actually. If you only count canon characters and leave out non-canon OCs, the ratio of red collar unicorns to black collar unicorns isn't even 2:1. It is a trend for sure, but it needs a far more refined theory than this one. You know I go by the theory that horns are sensory organs and that cutting it off is in a sense similar to blinding someone, which sort of explains the unicorns' apparent trend towards submissiveness, but at the same time it still leaves room for accounting for the irregularities. Also, another reason why unicorns tend to be reds is that they're simply more useful to the caribou as reds, while at least some of the earth ponies and pegasi (namely all those who do the hard physical labor) are actually more useful as blacks. If anyone thinks that the division of collar colors isn't entirely arbitrary and completely up to the caribou, he or she has already bought into the caribous' bullshit ideology.
6094920
Well, it was one of the theories bandied about.
There's actually something in another story, Sun's Setting, that would speak against it, or even against the dehorning affecting submissive behaviour: Namely the fact that Sunrise was especially docile not immediately after getting her horn cut off, but before that.
She attributes her submissiveness to the silver collar. Her feelings before and after it's removed are quite different, to the point where she doesn't understand why she did what she did just minutes ago.
What would speak to your idea of horns being sensory organs is that Sunny couldn't even tell if her magic was there anymore or not. Against it does the fact that Caribou cows actually do have antlers and yet show no magic ability. Tiny ones, true, but they're there.
6095544
6094920
Tarvoc, you're taking the chemical imbalance thing like it's a 100% "Once the horn is taken, you're instantly a Red." That's not how that works. Plus, I never said it was a chemical imbalance. I said it changes something inside the head dealing with the magic, and that it's my headcanon on what goes on. I haven't implemented it in the stories. It makes one more likely to Go Red. It doesn't change one into a Red. Hell, it could just be a 5% increase. Not that big overall, but it can lead to a surprising increase. But once again, as I've said multiple times, it's my headcanon, not story canon.
Also, the Silver collar WAS the one that was doing the changes to Sunrise. One of the runes was something Vestri had cooked up in the past. She was the final experiment, and it was a total failure. Thus why he abandons the project.
6094905 She's a unicorn.