Twilight looked to Silver silently a moment before repeating Silver's question. "Is that possible? I mean... Silver's spell bends the rules a bit, but a full-on stallion princess, er, prince?" She shook her head out of the building fog. "Is that possible?"
Celestia was about to answer, mouth already opening when Silver thrust up a hoof. "No. Enough changes. Enough new things. I think I'm unique enough without adding 'first alicorn prince' to the bundle. I didn't ask to be a mare, but I've gotten used to it, and I can get the dangly bits back when the mood strikes." Silver tilted her head at Celestia. "It's a very nice thought, and I do appreciate it."
Celestia nodded softly. "I confess, I am relieved to hear you say that."
Silver shrunk back a little. "Why? Were you still afraid I'd go on a homicidal spree the moment I had some testosterone?"
Celestia held up a hoof. "I am certain you would not do that, but no. I feared you may be amassing power, perhaps not even while aware of it. Tell me, Silver, what do you desire?"
Silver pointed at Twilight. "I want to be a good wife for her. I want to raise my foal properly. I'd like to get back to my talent and dive into magic. I want to be there for my herd. I want to meet ponies and have them smile at me instead of scowling and whispering." Silver turned her hoof at Celestia. "I'd like to escape your hate list."
Celestia's wings folded over the table, the left brushing Silver's cheek, the right on Twilight's. "I would like to be a positive aspect of both your new lives. We are already working to undo the damage done to your name. We'll be ensuring your coronation goes off without a hitch and the ponies of Equestria are properly impressed that you are a good and kind princess. Twilight." Her eyes focused on her former-student. "What do you like about Silver Stars?"
Twilight appeared startled at the question, wings ruffling a bit as she considered it. "She doesn't know the meaning of giving up, as far as I've seen." She raised a hoof. "Allow me to clarify that. She doesn't know how to give up on other ponies. She will keep right on digging, searching for that nugget of goodness in anypony she comes into any serious amount of contact with." She snorted then. "She even wants to try to make friends with a psychotic brainwashing despot. It infuriates me, but it's also... commendable, and I love that in her."
Celestia directed a hoof at herself. "Much like she appears here, willing to give me another chance, even if I may have come off as abrasive in the past."
Twilight nodded quickly. "Precisely. It is a special and rare thing." She looked across at Silver. "Even I could see Silver really wants this meeting to go well. She wants to be your friend, like you are mine."
"Are we just friends?"
Twilight blinked, caught off guard. "Er! Well... No! I mean... We're very close. You are very dear to me, Princess Celestia." She started fidgeting quite nervously. "You were my teacher, and I still consider you my mentor. You've shown me so much, about magic, and later about friendship. You pushed me out into the world I would have hid from on my own. I... I don't know how to say thank you deeply enough."
Silver cleared her throat softly. "Sorry for butting in, but what are you driving at, Celestia?"
Celestia raised a fine brow, then pointed at Silver. "Why does she refer to me as Celestia more often than you?"
Twilight began to go frizzy around the mane. "I... I didn't know you wanted me to... I was trying to be polite, P--Celestia."
Celestia shook her head. "I want to know what draws you together, and better understand your strengths and challenges."
Silver began noticing the pattern, and fidgeted herself a bit before a thought came to her. She looked across at Twilight and focused on her intently, trying to burrow into her with new thoughts. ~Twilight? If you can hear this, please raise your left hoof. It's Silver.~
Twilight looked surprised, then raised her right hoof a moment. Silver frowned a little. "Celestia. Are you being completely honest?" As she watched her, she thought to Twilight. ~Watch Celestia, closely, especially when she looks at you or talks about you.~
Celestia nodded firmly. "Of course. I want Twilight to be well-cared for, and I want our newest princess to adjust to her role smoothly. You've had a very rough time, and it's past due for me to help even out those edges."
Twilight suddenly asked. "Celestia, would you like to be my best mare?"
Celestia recoiled as if struck. "Wouldn't you want to pick one of your friends?" There was a subtle hope in her eyes, but much of it was suppressed. "Rarity would make an elegant choice."
Silver heard some mental noise that sounded a bit like Twilight, but the words were badly mangled. She decided that practice would be needed before she was half as good as Luna was at mental speaking. Twilight continued unabated with a gentle smile. "I'm certain she would be, and she and the others will certainly be hoofmaidens, but you have played such a vital part in my upbringing, and as a friend. I think you should do it."
Celestia's front began to crack as she gave her own fidget. "Twilight... I would be honored, but I must refuse. I offer instead to officiate." She smiled brilliantly. "Who else could oversee a wedding of two princesses?"
Silver raised a hoof. "Don't forget my herd."
Celestia tilted her head. "About that... Accept this as an idea only. There is no compulsion... but I would be much more at ease if you were marrying Twilight directly, instead of bringing her into your herd. How strong is your bond to the others?"
Silver's eyes widened a moment before narrowing. "My foal is in one of them, to start. I just finished comforting her. I can't even fathom the idea of abandoning them after they've been there for me through so much. That was a brutally mean question."
Twilight nodded in agreement. "I don't see how that could end well, Celestia. Night and Fast are both wonderful ponies. Why wouldn't you want them involved?"
Celestia waved a hoof. "Consider it forgotten. It's just been many many years since the last royal herd. Are they aware of what's expected of them?"
Twilight tilted her head. "Besides being good herd-mates to us?"
Celestia nodded and her horn glowed. She drew out a book from under the table and set it on top. "Take this. It goes over all of that, for them. Royal herd-mates have more to do than just being a good husband or wife. There are official functions and expectations." Celestia coughed into a hoof. "The stallion is expected to sire foals in a certain period of time, or the herd is dissolved."
Twilight frowned sharply. "Seriously? I don't remember any such laws."
Celestia shook her head. "Royal herds. Specific rules. Normal marriages have dropped and changed laws over the years, and so have normal herds, but royal herds are largely unchanged since before Luna was banished. There are rules for how often you should share a bed, be seen in public and with whom, and so on."
Twilight thumped the top of the book. "Nopony even remembers this. We should just change it, now. There's no reason for a royal herd to behave differently than any other."
Silver bobbed her head in agreement. "Not that I imagine Fast would mind a mandated amount of breeding." She gestured at Twilight. "I don't think Twilight is ready for motherhood. We're still working on fatherhood."
Celestia drew the book closer to herself. "Then we will do what we can, but laws concerning alicorns are not ratified by alicorns. That would be a gross abuse. This has to go through less royal means."
Silver wilted a bit. "You mean I have to rely on the nobles of Canterlot?"
"I'm afraid this is true." Celestia looked between the two. "My suggestion was not that you had to separate from your partners forever, but at least until the laws are changed, then you could invite them in."
Twilight took a slow breath. "We should talk to them first. Even if it's just on paper, being told Silver is leaving their herd is not something to just do casually. We'll bring it up when we get back." She smiled timidly up at Celestia. "Was there anything else you wanted to discuss?"
"Show me that spell."
Silver tilted her head. "What spell? The damage shield? Fireball? Fire wall?"
Celestia pointed at Silver with a hoof. "Become a stallion."
Silver went frozen. Twilight glanced across at Silver, then at Celestia. "Um... Perhaps... I could demonstrate?"
"That will work just as well." Celestia nodded lightly. "Go ahead."
Twilight's horn glowed with the subtle play of magic. Her deep wells of magic allowed her to cast it with a lack of effort that never failed to impress Silver. Soon she was between sexes, having both properties visibly. "Were you looking for something specific?"
Celestia shook her head slowly. "No, but I have removed all mentions of this spell from the academies. You do understand why, do you not?"
Twilight frowned in thought. "I'm not entirely sure? It's very high level and complicated. A pony could hurt themselves trying it, but that's true for many legal spells and why they have a rating."
Silver shook herself out. "You're afraid mares won't need stallions."
Celestia gave a soft smile. "Luna was not wrong. You can see the patterns. If mares can replace the need for stallions with themselves, then stallions become marginalized. Especially since there is no equivalent spell for a stallion, this spell cannot be left in public eye. I may have spoken... poorly... on their behalf, but I have no desire to see my ponies, male or female, suffer that way. Besides, there are places magic is best not introduced, and the basic, loving act of foal making is one of them I feel."
Silver looked at Twilight, glancing down at her addition before looking to Celestia with a blush. "Twilight gave me a child with it, er, foal, and I don't regret it."
Twilight nodded in agreement to both. "I'm certain if used entirely responsibly, it would be fine, but I can also see how it could easily be abused, and monitoring for it would be basically impossible until after the fact with a foal on the way." She leaned closed to Silver and nuzzled her once. "It's just our little secret now."
Silver warmed before another thought came crashing down on her and she sat bolt upright. "Alicorn breeding."
Celestia reached across and pet Silver across her soft mane. "I knew I had only to wait a small time."
Twilight tilted her head. "I don't get it."
Alicorn breeding. dun dun dun......
if I remember it was Luna that told Silver the only way a alicorn can become with child is from anther alicorn.
that is the reason none of the princess have ever bore foals. so this spell must be guarded vary closely.
and pore naïve Twilight, Twilight tilted her head. "I don't get it."
aww but Twilight you did get it once and Silver is still caring your foal if only in spirit for now.
I am still wondering when Celestia is going to come clean and tell Twilight she is interested in her.
and Celestia is playing games agene in wanting Silver and Twilight to set aside there herd mats. with the plan on stepping in.
Harts Fire
5914046
So.. the whole pony breeding thing has some weird issues.
Only alicorn can get an alicorn pregnant, but there's never been a male alicorn, aside from Twilight's dalliance with Silver, and no male alicorns have ever been with female alicorns so.. that would mean it's simply unknown whether a male alicorn would even work. Maybe the problem isn't the males, but that the females simply don't have that functionality anymore once they ascend.
In general, it's odd that male pony bits even matter at all. We know that the act of sex isn't necessary for conception, that female ponies with male bits can impregnate female ponies, so.. why wouldn't lesbian couples already be able to conceive? Do the dangling bits actually effect their hearts in a way that matters here?
There's also the gender balance question. If mares strongly outnumber stallions (for some reason I'm thinking it was 3:1 somewhere, but I may be just making stuff up), herds are generally out, and the love requirements tend to strongly limit out-of-wedlock births, you would think that you'd need something like every stallion siring four or more foals, and typically from one mother, just to avoid population implosion. Herding can make that easier on the mothers (one foal per mare to replace herself, plus one total to replace the stallion) , as would lesbians being able to have their own young. (What happens now? Are they typically childless? Or is temporary use of a stallion socially acceptable? They don't have our artificial conception technology, and it wouldn't work for them the way we do it anyways.)
I kind of feel like Celestia's concerns for the stallions are unfounded, unless there's an aspect to stallion social dynamics we are currently lacking. I doubt the current straight mares would become lesbians just because the lesbians could have foals. And if the lesbians are 'borrowing' stallions, would the boys really be that marginalized just because they ended that practice?
It's really only the 'colt cuddlers' that get a raw deal there, but wait! They already have a raw deal. And maybe if the lesbians could breed on their own the 'colt cuddlers' wouldn't come off as somehow undermining their species and could be left in peace?
5914226 Do you really want spoilers?
5914235
I wouldn't mind, especially in PM form, and especially if it's likely to be relevant to my own writing. (probably not, but you surprise me often enough)
Though some of the common-knowledge aspects of my comment could be reasonably addressed here (and/or the canon thread). I.e. what is the gender ratio? Do lesbians typically get male help conceiving or go childless (or are both common enough to be considered 'normal')?
As for what Celestia is really thinking.. I'd love to hear it, but ideally in the form of a dramatic reveal in a future chapter. :) If that's not coming, it'd be interesting to hear from your author perspective.
5914287 It was implied in earlier chapters that a stallion could be borrowed with consent of their partner/herd, so, yes, a lesbian couple could still shop for a stallion and ask nicely to borrow him at the right time, which can be quite involved, basically working out to a whole new courtship of the couple/herd being approached.
Though this does cut down a lot on rash decision making. By the time you got that stallion nailed down, you know if you want him.
5914379 I'll go ahead and throw spoilers around. A fully mature alicorn, at least in this verse, requires a stupid amount of energy to fully get that foal engine running. Silver gave it his best shot, and only got enough in there for Luna to use later for his lunar change. Twilight, ye Mary Sue of Magic, could likely pull it off.
No, Celestia is not about to turn her rump for Twilight. Celestia has boundaries, and boinking with her student goes over one of those boundaries, especially when such an act is almost assured to make Twilight extremely uncomfortable. Silver she can fuck with, Twilight is her girl and deserves better, huff puff.
Of course, that leaves plenty of other options. I'll stop there.
after going over the last several post hear I am seeing a bunch of theory's flying around, an di am liking most of them and find others intriguing to say the lest.
only time will tell and time is a fickle best and will not give up her secrets easily.
my vote is at some point I want to see night giving birth to a healthy happy foal and I wood defiantly would like to see either Silver or Twilight being a happy mother to there foal or can we say both at the same time. after all we are talking equestrian magic here.
in the mean time Harts Fire is tired I am going to go find a nice soft fluffy cloud and crash for a few hours.
now if only I hade a adult Scootaloo to cuddle up with.
Harts Fire
5914760 Sorry, Scoots in another story of mine.
yep I know that and I am vary happy.
but remember my #1 best pony is scootaloo.
rolling back over on my cloud going back to sleep.
Harts Fire
A "full-on" stallion prince.
There are two spaces between these sentences.
She doesn't know how to give up "on" other ponies.
Is she supposed to be doing the opposite of what Silver said, there?
She wants Twilight to be "well-cared" for.
There are two spaces between "both" and "wonderful."
Delete the comma after "loving."
5916494 Typos fixed for great justice, and yes, Twilight was supposed to raise the wrong hoof. New magic is hard!
5916524 I got the impression that Celestia had this particular meeting with an agenda, but it was starting to come undone as her personal feelings started to bubble to the fore. The results were interesting, particularly because I find myself - much to my surprise - somewhat sympathetic to Celestia's position.
I was pleased to see Silver put a stop to the constant stream of changes that she's been going through, and I think that was a real sign of maturity on her part. Simply bouncing from one thing to the next, rather than trying to exert some control over herself and the course of her life, isn't something you do if you want to put down roots and start a family, let alone be a ruler. True, Silver has largely been at the mercy of outside influences up until now, but her response to that has largely been to roll over without a fight or simply run away. It's nice to see her demand that the constant stream of changes stop; now let's see if she can keep that up when events are more forceful than a courteous question.
It was a surprise - a very delightful one - to see that there are laws concerning the actions and duties of royal herds; all the more so for the fact that they can't simply be rewritten by the ruling alicorns on a whim. Yay political and legal intrigue! Of course, it's hard to escape the fact that the alicorns command massive magical power and supreme popular support...Silver might not have as much of those last two, but she's apparently having them both built up even now. I say that because I'm hoping that the stumbling block of "the nobility makes the laws for alicorns" won't simply be run roughshod over and treated as a pro-forma issue due to the alicorns being able to coerce (or even threaten) the nobles into giving the alicorns what they want. It's no secret that I've long wanted more political intrigue in this story; here's hoping that it's right around the corner.
Istaran raised some good points with regards to the implications raised by Celestia pulling the "stallion bits" spell from general circulation. While it has been implied that lesbian couples can "borrow" a stallion to stud for them when they want a couple, that implication was made well before the revelation that the act of conception was one that depended on love, rather than sex. While it has been established that the love must be romantic love, that didn't address why a biological stallion is apparently also a necessary component to procreate.
It's questions like these that made me wary of changing something so basic as "where do foals come from?" Because now, apparently, a lesbian couple can love each other very much, but can't have a foal together regardless of the "level" of their romantic love. So they will borrow a stallion instead, and that's where there seems to be a problem...because in such a situation, it seems unlikely that the stallion and the lesbian mare would have the requisite love for each other necessary to generate a foal within the mare, regardless of how much sex they have. To be fair, it's possible that they're asking a close friend, but the entire point is that conception requires both parents to not only feel romantic love, but romantic love for each other. So casually asking a stallion to stud doesn't seem like they'd have enough love between them, if they're not already part of a couple.
...which, I imagine, is how herds were formed in the first place.
That also brings us to the subject of alicorn breeding. Presuming that masculine "equipment" is a vital component of reproduction, then Silver has allowed for two alicorns to breed true, and that is something of a problem. Even if they're not always immortal, alicorns are far and away more powerful than ordinary ponies; if Celestia is concerned about them becoming too numerous (and thus increasing the chances of something going wrong, likely in the misapplication of power, outright corruption, or even the social impact of a new - and very unequal - "tribe" coming into being), then she's right to strike that particular spell from avenues that the public can access. Of course, Lyra already had the spell for quite some time... I can already see this going to the black market (remember that shop where Trixie bought the alicorn amulet?). That won't necessarily equate to any more alicorns, of course, but the "no-stallion revolution" that Celestia is worried about may be very difficult to stop if that happens. Equestria may be facing severe social problems down the road.
Finally, there's the subject of Celestia's feelings for Twilight, and it's here that I think the situation is far more nuanced than Celestia simply being in the wrong. To start with, there are no social or political barriers to Celestia and Twilight being a couple - lesbian couples have no social stigma; or at least, they have less than herds. Moreover, there's no political scandal between two ponies of equal status (e.g. princesses) being together. The only things standing between them are issues of personal feelings.
That's not to say that that isn't a major point of consideration; when it comes to a romantic relationship, feelings are the central point of concern, and it's clear that Twilight doesn't feel anything that even remotely resembles romance for Celestia. Here's the thing though, that's not because she doesn't want to be with her, but simply because it's never occurred to her. She's placed Celestia on a pedestal, which necessarily places her out of reach.
There are several reasons why I don't believe this is a good thing, and certainly not fair to Celestia. For one thing, Twilight has already ascended to a point that is, at least on paper, Celestia's equal. They're both alicorns, both princesses, both accomplished defenders of the realm. Twilight's admiration for Celestia is, at this point, vestigial. Admiration, by its very nature, is the passive contemplation of another's superiority, but Celestia isn't superior to Twilight; she's longer-lived, and possibly has a greater well of magical power, but that's roughly it. Moreover, Twilight is familiar with why that kind of hero-worship isn't necessarily a good thing; she was (rightly) critical of how Rainbow Dash's idolization of Daring Do was making things worse for her, rather than better.
In the end, Twilight will feel how she feels about Celestia, and it's quite possible - or, as Doctor Strangelove said, "not only possible, but likely" - that Twilight won't ever feel that way about her former mentor. But that should be a consideration of how she actually feels about the elder alicorn, not because she simply files her under the mental category of "not considered due to lack of attainability." That's not fair to Celestia, and that Celestia is apparently alright with that isn't fair to herself.
If nothing else, Twilight is the Princess of Friendship, and you don't hero-worship your friends.
5916654 I try pretty hard to not grossly violate the rating, which means not getting into every nit that can be picked, but this isn't too bad I suppose. If two mares get a stallion on loan and want to have a foal, it's a group activity. The stallion does not take one of the mares aside, or it's not terrible likely to work. The mares love each other, and that has to be kept up during the process 'priming the engine' so to speak, which allows the stallion to do his job.
This should also explain why Twilight knocked Silver sky high without Twilight being fully invested at the time in romantic love. Love is required, but that is on the female's side.
So, to recap, lesbian couple get each other worked up, stud hops on the mare that's receptive and does his duty while they keep each other occupied. Foals are made!
You still need all of these parts. Two lesbians loving on each other just gets both of their foal-making engines running. Without the stallion's contribution, nothing happens. The magic of a male, which is oft ignored in the mare-centric Equestria, has to mix with the magic of a female to make this work. When the two come together in a primed female, then you can get a foal. If any of these pieces are missing, no foals for you!
Silver was feeling an infatuation with Twilight and was turned on by the kinkiness of her first time being with futa-Twilight, so her engine was running. Her female magic mixed with Twilight's temporary male magic, and a foal was created inside of her as a result. They could have, in theory, cuddled really hard or shared a romantic dinner to do it, but the direct method gets the male magic up in there a lot more reliably.
5916708 Okay, so reproduction requires love, which must A) be romantic in nature, B) be felt by the mare (the stallion is apparently optional, here), and C) not required on the part of the stallion, who just has to "contribute his magic" in a way that's undefined, since it apparently doesn't need to involve sex, and because love apparently only needs to be felt by the female (e.g. "Love is required, but that is on the female's side.").
Leaving aside the unspecified nature of how the stallion's magic is being contributed, my question is at whom the mare's love is directed. It sounds like she can apparently be head-over-hooves in love with another mare, and not care about the stallion that's "participating" at all, so long as he can (somehow) donate his magic. Is that right?
5916708
Alright, so I'm taking it that the male bits are a kind of 'horn', that channels the male magic. Without that physical organ, a mare can't channel that particular variety of magic, just like wings are required for pegasi flight and weather magic, unicorn horns are required for their horn-magic and.. presumably earth ponies have some comparable (internal?) organs that enable their might magic.
5916659
Well I wasn't, but I'm going to start. We'll see if I keep it up long enough to be habitual.
5916745 Right, so long as the mare is in the throes of love, she's primed to make a foal.
5916762 As Istaran says, it's much like a horn or a wing or even lunar fangs in that it's a unique organ that allows the channeling of magic in a specific way. Wings let you fly, horn allows unicorn magic and levitation/light. And a horse cock lets you produce male magic.
The magic of friendship.
somebody should really check her for mind magic. (i realy don't understand how s/he doesn't want to be male againe)
5921579 Because it would invariably require some other horrible price and further mire her in some kind of terrible drama? There's no such thing as a free ride, and just -not saying yes- rated higher than being full time male. She's standing up for herself. It's important.
Burrrrn.
"I knew I had only to wait a small time."
So, I'm not exactly sure if this is an error but I did noticed this.
Was this intentional? If it wasn't well, it's an error.
7415233 The communication was far from perfect.
The only noble I trust is Fancy Pants. The rest I consider snobs.