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When Twilight is awake, Celestia is her teacher, and she a faithful student. But when Twilight shuts her eyes, another mare approaches, who teaches her a very different lesson.

An experimental fic, written to play around with alternative perspectives. Be warned, ye who enter here.

Chapters (10)
Comments ( 431 )

I don't really agree with some of Luna's lessons, but you've got an interesting story here that I'd like to see more of.

Being completely analytical about everything in life isn't good for you either, it takes out the fun.

Nice. Another story from you that's going in my favourites. :)

Have you thought about submitting this to the group The Nightmare Teacher? I don't know exactly how group submission things work, but it seems to me like it would fit.

The contrast, man. The contrast!

Very good thing here. I'm watching.

I will definitely be reading this at a later date. I enjoy portrayals of Luna wherein she is not a buffoon, and there are not nearly enough stories on Fimfiction which take advantage of her ability to enter dreams.

Also, this story is phonetically--if not thematically--similar to that of one of my favorite stories on Fimfiction: 'Destiny' and Other Lies Told to Foals. So I'm predisposed to read it.

Luna's lessons are actually making Twilight saner? Now that's a surprise.

After Luna said Celestia taught the wrong lesson, I was expecting her to say "The right lesson is 'Don't risk getting yourself killed over something so stupid'. "
Good thing no one advocated that here, then. Judgements aren't always completely analytical, but you always make them.

Reminds me of The Moon's Twilight by Wanderer D, without the clop.


I don't think we are meant to agree with all the lessons.

This Princess Luna is not healthy; she never shows emotions and is entirely analytical. She amuses herself while angling to teach contrasting messages to her sister when appropriate. She aims to get Twilight angry and frustrated like any proper Socratic teacher would in those lessons as well, almost the complete opposite to Celestia's mothering nature. And she constantly amuses herself by messing with Twilight's dreams yet takes the memory of them away when she wakes. I get the impression Twilight is as much a toy to Luna as she is a student.

Shes not a bad being, but she'd definitely NOT be a teacher anyone wants interacting with a child. There is a reason that style is typically done with those older as it could turn a child into an apathetic sociopath. The unreal nature of the dream world (and how it's used to expand on those lessons) only adds to the experience. Twilight is downright mean to Luna in the later chapters, and Luna never reacts to either happy or negative actions, not reinforcing either, only adds to that apathy.

The problem with the two sisters I see is in fact a realistic one, when presented with 2 teachers who have opposing views it's easy to see one as right and one as wrong, but in truth it's absolutism that is usually the problem. Your friends should like you for who you are, yet at the same time want to help you change some aspects of yourself, it's a tricky thing, knowing what aspects of yourself to change and what ones to staunchly keep. The importance of grades is another, grades are important because they are useful toll for gaging your progress in education, but at the same time focusing purely on a grading system is a mistake and a poor grading system skews the results. Both Princesses have valuable things to teach Twilight, Twilight is going to need to find the balance between extremes. It could be Luna ends up learning about finding the balance with in herself, Twilight's description of Celestia's lessons and the deep caring she shows for the little filly being something the Night Princess can't avoid thinking about.

Very intriguing story. :twilightsmile:

I'm looking forward to seeing how Twilight will change Luna.

Sorry but... Mellon -> Melon.

I haven't finished reading what you have posted. But I want to say I find your story very interesting. The contrast in teaching styles is striking and seem appropriate for the two sisters.

This is a very good lesson for anyone to learn at any age. Well written.

I am really enjoying this. I hope you continue it soon so I can see this duality story play out.

...I wonder if Luna will ever pop up in one of Twilight's crayon drawings? That would certainly freak Celestia out! :)

I like Luna's teaching style. It seems like fun.

“I will never stick any part of my body into a machine,”

What about sticking machines inside parts of her body? A mare has needs you know.

5744671 Though Luna is clearly not healthy at this point it seems to me that she has to teach hard lessons as she is working with the subconscious.

She isn't laying out something that can be memorized. Every night she must tell twilight who she is.

The only time she seems to be playing with Twilight is when she is trying to teach her a lesson about priorities.

I think Luna knows she can't afford for Twilight to fail because she knows that Twilight can save her from Nightmare Moon. Possibly explaining why she seems so stoic. She's scared and depressed.

Wow, you've managed to portray Luna so different that I would be glad if she died a painful death. Faknhell, she's mental. But the worst thing is that she vents on a little child...

I don't know why I find Luna's methods so... repulsive. I physically feel sick.

Okay, it's the mental torture/abuse tha throws me off. I don't know if I should continue reading this; it's well-written, but so off-putting...

5745761 I...
I sadly have agree with your statement. Luna`s methods are extremely cruel let alone crude. She basically tries to brain wash twilight after trying to fit in then give a complete contradictory statement of friends changing you but friends change with you. I know I guy who has remained the same for all of my time school( which included him throwing a shoe at a annoying guy during chemistry) and I don't discredit him as a friend.
Life changes us. your pain, my joy, your promotion, my experience with losing a long acquainted grand father- it all boils down to our choices and memories we make. We can let friends change us or we can find those who gladly change and age with us.
Never have I let social desires make my choices. And that's not a matter of opinion but fact!

But at the same time celestia`s methods are too soft and focused on making friends than actually finding good friends. This is the difference between reality and the shows purpose. In reality we don't try ignore or avoided our friends like they did with pinky for her party, we merely laugh it off or just hint at what's going to happen.

But that's my stance on the issue. besides it a show for young girls so we should take liberties when creating new back story.

5745761 I am not certain, but I may have an inkling.
When I was in High School occasionally someone would come to me for help. They normally wouldn't come back, because they would ask for answers, and I would ask them questions to let them get to the answers on their own. They wanted just the answers and expected to be alright without having to practice any real problem solving skills, instead of working to better themselves.

I believe that Luna's methods are superior, if only because she rarely tries to force a viewpoint on Twilight. While she may come off as cold and cynical, she forces Twilight to think through the issue and decide for herself, rather than telling her what to do as Celestia does. While both are helping her develop, Luna is providing the depth of thought and the context that Twilight can't see, but inevitably exists behind Celestia's own advice.

Luna might be the one teaching the straight-forward lessons, but at the same time Celestia isn't in a position to do that, she needs Twilight to really like her, not simply be tolerated out of necessity, like Luna is right now. Celestia teaches her the lessons in a loving way, and then deals with the accepted faults that spring up from not demanding perfection - which she doesn't even need to do right now due to Luna taking the role of the perfect strict teacher.

It's going to be really freaking weird to see Luna and Twilight interact outside of dreams later (assuming this happens).

Just started.

“It is quite easy,” Luna said. “Look closely, and I will show you.”

yes I often find miniature black holes easy to produce and sustain without damaging my surroundings.

You know, when an adult comes to me looking for help with their math, I find they don't like essentially being told "research how to solve your problem better." What do they think I am? Someone payed to help teach them?
They are however fine with being walked through the process, showing them directly (not just saying look up x, manually looking it up with them)

I don't blame you for trying to help someone help themselves, but don't blame them when your scheme doesn't work.

5745716 Sorry, but I cannot agree with that. While Luna's behaviour might be faulty she doesn't know about the the tale and the implications it has for children. She is just teaching Twilight a lesson to question things instead of just believing what others tell her.

Yes, this does take some of the joy out of the celebration, and while Luna might have guessed so, it is unlikely that it was her intention. Besides, Twilight is seven and a half here and it's not that unusual for children to question Santa at that age, even without outside encouragement. Especially a smart filly like Twilight would have probably come to a similar conclusion herself not all that much later.

That Howl's Moving Castle. :heart: :rainbowlaugh:

You certainly got my attention. Curious to see where this all ends. Do you have an ending for all this setup already? Not that I want this to end all too soon.

Best of luck, hope to see more soon.

While Luna's lesson in the last chapter was kind of questionable and possibly wrong, I don't understand where she is at fault here. Luna is teaching Twilight independent thinking. Of cause it's easier to just tell a person what is right and what is wrong, what is important and what is unimportant, but in the end it is the wrong approach.
I actually find Celestia's approach way more sick here. She is using the high regard Twilight has for her to create a fake moral compass that makes tests and grades a primary goal in itself. The lesson she gives Twilight is not one she needs and can very easily lead to unnecessary and harmful obsession in long term.

Luna does the correct thing by putting this right. Yes, it is hard on Twilight, but thinking for herself is a lesson she needs to learn.

Well, that was pretty nice.

Luna's chapters are pretty descriptive. Fun, if at first glance a smidge dark with how she seems to enjoy stomping on creatures in her dream world as a steampunk mecha robot last chapter and here where she uses the very printing press to restrain and symbolize her head being drilled and the insides becoming mush. Won't say more then that but suffice to say your dream worlds are pretty creative and give the filly a nice contrast to Celestia's form of teaching.

Great stuff so far. Luna is pretty old fashion and quite right in her fundamental teaching methods. It's a dream anyways so she can sure take in some liberties. A bit sad to think she's forgotten almost every night. Interesting relationship these three share though. Seems Luna's lessons are actually sinking in.

Although I would say that the mental torture really went over the line in this chapter, I still think that Luna is, at heart, teaching good lessons. She has the right intentions, but a thousand years of lunar isolation have obviously not been kind. But at least she's trying, right?

Okay, so this chapter is making me a little less supportive of Luna than I have been in previous chapters, but I still say she's at least as good a teacher as Celestia.

I love this so far, keep up the good work.

5743644 Perhaps. Then there are those of us who have a great deal of difficulty turning that mode of thinking off. Luna strikes me as one such person, which makes me identify with her a little better than with Celestia.

I like that Twilight doesn't remember her dreams. It speaks to Luna applying a conditioning approach rather than some sort of persuasive one, which strikes me as clever. Also, I imagine that most ponies don't remember their dreams, so Twilight's lack of memory might simply be what Luna has to work with, rather than what Luna's decided to implement. In that case, the conditioning with the melons makes much more sense, as that'd really be the only way for Luna to be sure the lesson would carry over the border between dreams and reality.

5747144 You can't force a person over to a line of thinking like that, there's a point when it becomes a hindrance, but anyway, I'm not smart enough to argue the point so i'll just say I don't agree with the teaching method and outcome and leave it at that.

Comment posted by SurpriseKitty deleted Mar 17th, 2015

> "You can apply the pi and pi over two rules."

This is what happens when one uses half the CircleConstant as the CircleConstant. The 1 True CircleConstant is τ (Tau):

τ = c / r ≈ 6.283185307179586

A Circle has τ-Radians. None of this multiplying and dividing by 2. The equation for the interior of an n-Sphere:

( d - 1 ) / d τ r ^ d

Where d is the degree of the embedding dimension.

Let us take the example of the volume on a UnitSphere:

2 / 3 τ r ^ 3 ≈ 4.188790204786391 Cubic Units

Mathematics is so much easier if one uses the 1 True Correct CircleConstant.

This is a story that I want more of.

I'm not sure I really buy it.
I suppose my first objection is that it's another fic where Luna is the dark sister. I get why that's done (it's a human thing), but I think it misses the point of the series--Luna can be scary, but she's also fun-loving and desperate for approval. The entire reason she had a mental break was because ponies were afraid or uninterested in her night even though she tried to make it beautiful for them. She has her temper, but it's a passing thing from what little we've seen of it.
Note that I'm not objecting to her being OC, but just that it's a tired archetype of her character.

The story concept is interesting, but it seems pretty weird to try to teach someone through dreams when Luna herself says the will fade. That means the lessons fade too, so . . . yeah.
I also find that Luna's lessons tend to split some pretty fine hairs to make some really big mole hills. It's not that they're wrong. But it reaches the point that I wonder that she bothers teaching Twilight at all. The value of her lessons is often as debatable as that of Celestia's for someone who claims to be trying to get Twilight to think for herself IMO.

yes cant wate for more

5746408 Let me clarify, allow them to come to the conclusion of their own thinking, not look it up on their own. I asked them the basic questions of the steps, like what do you do first, can you do that 'yes' then I have them do that. What do you do next 'I Don't know' then I tell them how to do it, and let them work that part. I tell them how to do it step by step, and let them do the work, what everyone wants is me to do the question for them.

Every child is different to be honest. I was around Twilight's age in this fic when my parents told me the truth, and while I too cried at first, I learned to live with it. It didn't lessen my love of Christmas any, but I know several people who took it a lot harder. As to this Luna being different, this is one of the more common depictions of her I've seen, in that she appears out of touch and mean by today's standards.

EDIT: How did I let it go this long without noticing I used the wrong lessen. :facehoof:

Well this is a world full of magical talking ponies, shapeshifters that feed off of love, a creature made of who knows how many other creaturesthat is able to make pretty much anything appear/change/disapear, ponies powerful enough to control the sun and moon, a creature able to eat magic, magical butt tatoos that appear out of thin air, and I think you get my point.

5746201 How does the absence of light equate to a black hole? Do you even science?

So is this Luna while she's still under Nightmare Moon's influence or not?

Luna's a pretty cool dude.

Luna is teaching twilight important lessons, good lessons at that, but her methods are rather questionable. Anyway, excellent story!

Hello! Just chiming in to fix a mistake (interestingly, in a paragraph about fixing mistakes). I'm particularly enjoying the story so far.

“Well,” Twilight said, “you got it mostly right. Here, let me show you want you did wrong.”


What I love is the balanced (as in not merely an archetype) characterization of the princesses.
Keep going.

I have to disagree with Luna's definitions here. Something is important if it matters to you.

There's nothing bad about missing a sports game. You can watch it later on tv, and you can spend time with your friends another time. It is at most an inconvenience, but most people feel that attending is important. A billion things people consider important have penalties upon failure that are so lackluster that they are hardly worth consideration, but because of how we place value on things what constitutes "bad" is widely varied. There are people all over the world who will give up things like sleep or regular meals in order to follow their passion, when the consequences of not doing so are nothing more than not following that passion. For them, telling a story is more important than their health--which is fine. There is no inherent value in anything, only that which we, as a culture or individuals, decide that something deserves.

And grades are important, although from a filly's perspective it is understandable that Twilight wouldn't consider it. Grades are a mark of your knowledge and achievements; they allow others to know what you know and are capable of without needing to speed months or years in your presence to learn about you. An absolute genius with terrible grades would almost never be accepted into the types of schools that typically attract his/her intellectual peers, regardless of how smart he was or what he knew, because the people in charge of enrollment can't accept on trust that this strange kid is as knowledgeable as he says he is. Of course, he could prove it to them on the spot... requiring a form of examination, the results of which must be checked for accuracy--and whether they give him a letter or not, simply saying "he got everything right" is a grade in and of itself--although one only of significance to the test taker and the test grader.

A degree is just the evolution of grades. Rather than telling people you got A's and B's in biology, anatomy, chemistry, and physiology, you tell people you're a Doctor of Medicine. And having a degree will vastly change how the world responds to you, unless you keep it secret for whatever reason. Even if you are humble, people knowing that you are knowledgeable, knowing what you are talented in, and knowing that they can trust you to act responsibly and intelligently in your field of study is important. Considering how focused most ponies are in their special talents, degrees and titles become more important for any skills outside of those signified by their cutie mark, as the lives of ponies generally revolves almost entirely around that skill and few would consider talking to a mage when what they need is someone who studies [insert any of Twilight's many nonmagical fields of study].

Even if someone has studied a subject to the point that they are one of the foremost masters in the world, who would let some joe shmoe without a doctorate perform emergency heart surgery on a four year old kid who [insert disastrous situation here]? Although that is admittedly an extreme example.

Finally, memorizing things to the point that you don't need to devote any significant amount of time to them is important. Admittedly, rote repetition is a terrible method of learning things and discourages creativity. But imagine she saved, say, two minutes a day with proper memorization of the more important of the hundreds upon hundreds of equations needed in math and the sciences (considering her studies, I believe she'd use fairly advanced math on a regular basis). Over the course of 80 years, that totals to more than a month of time. Can you imagine how dragging and painfully long math would be if you had to always deliberately recall the answer to all single digit multiplication? The more advanced the studies, the more someone needs to be able to recall without needing to devote time or effort to it. Answering a problem a bit slower? That's a tiny inconvenience of time. But when over the course of your life you run through that same tiny inconvenience a hundred thousand times, it grows into a huge time sink. And unless Luna has intentions of alicornizing Twilight, time is something Twilight has precious little of. It is, after all, the most nonrenewable of resources.

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