Trigger warnings: no trolling, no sex, few jokes
(This has to be the only subject where those count as triggers.)
At a sleepover, the mane six start telling dirty secrets. Twilight comes out as bi, and everyone is so accepting of it that Fluttershy's tempted to come out herself.
If they're friends, what's the worst that could happen?
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Well, that was much more than I thought it would be.
Wow. That was very unexpected. I almost feel like I could accept bestiality now.
You know who else is pushing the boundaries
I like things with thought. This has thought. It's in Equestria, so it's interesting to see how magical colored everything is lovey dovey ponies would take on this topic. I don't know if I agree with it one way or the other, but I like that it exists. Thanks for writing and posting. I think, assuming you can get people to read and get it, it might make the world a better place on some small scale.
It's also interesting to note that canonically speaking, a great many animals in Equestria display a high degree of intelligence and a fairly nuanced understanding of pony speech (even if they can't actually speak Pony), and that Fluttershy has little difficulty understanding when many animals "speak" (up to and including, as Mr. Beaverton demonstrated, recognizing foul language). As such, it seems to me that screwing an animal in Equestria is not significantly different from screwing, say, a Griffon who doesn't speak Pony, save for the fact that the griffon could learn Pony if it wanted to.
Logically, then one may conclude that being against zoophilia in Equestria may be not only speciesist, but ableist as well...
Welp... that was... something...? I expected comedic story about Fluttershy expressing herself as a pony into bestiality. What I got was something else... but not in a bad way. It's just... different. It was sincere -- I guess you could say that? -- and kind of sad. It shows Fluttershy trying to open up to her friends about being a zoophile, and how she knew her friends wouldn't treat her like how society treats zoophile.
Anyways, I didn't quite like it. But then again, it was because I had my expectation high for this story; so high it was for a different kind of story.
I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the people who downvoted this were all like, "eww, beasty porno."
They should read it.
5407383 Those people are stupid. it's clearly rated T. Not clop...though I was hesitant to read it until the author pointed that out.
BITCHES NEED TO READ THE TRIGGER WARNINGS
Eww.
Aww.
I have two friends who are into bestiality in real life. I figure I spend enough time fantasizing about Trixie that I'm in no position to judge someone else because she wants to fuck a stallion.
Huh. Read the description, expected a trollfic. Got a perfectly nice, well-written, respectful and thoughtful story instead. I'm okay with this.
Only quibble I'd have is that Fluttershy is canonically able to speak with and understand every normal animal she's met, so the question of consent is actually perfectly clear.
My problem is that it's literally /ALWAYS/ Applejack authors write as the one who has absolutely no tolerance for anything out of the norm. I can't tell if it's social inclination to believe Southern-types are all judgmental redneck fundies or if she's not 'special' enough to be kosher with whatever crazy thing one of the girls is into in the respective story.
If anything, I'd expect it more of Rarity or Twilight, given the rigid nature of their particular adherences.
Other than that, very good story.
I'm confused, doesn't the fact the Fluttershy can talk to animals negate the whole 'can't give consent' point? Why did nobody mention that?
There was a group of people I used to talk with from youtube, a group called "The Round Table". One of the topics that came up was consent in bestiality and if animals were, in fact, capable of consent. The discussion started out jokingly enough, as most topics as controversial as it tend to do, but it turned into an honest discussion that lasted three hours.
It took a while to get passed the "indignation and disgust don't constitute arguments" factor but the two sides got hung up on animal's lack of sapience equated to their inability to consent. One side argued in favor of aggressive/passive acceptance and invitation, while the other argued in favor of the inability to process and comprehend.
Emotional arguments had to be put aside, which was no easy task that some of us couldn't do, but in the end it was a good discussion. One that I wish most people had the maturity to tackle most every other topic with.
While I'm not a fan of zoophiles, I'm also not going to use force or aggression against their choices, so long as no humans or animals are being hurt or forced against their will. Pretty much my stance on anything, really.
Now, association with the individual? That would be another matter.
In Equestria? Well, most animals seem capable of giving consent. Even butterflies can understand pony speech.
In real life? I can think of very few animals that could possibly be considered intelligent enough to give consent, and not many of those are capable of engaging in sexual activity with humans. Add in the dubiousness of an animal giving "consent" and its owner not giving consent (a possible circumstance), and you have very limited possible bestiality.
Of course, I disagree for personal reasons, but by my own admission these reasons lack logical arguments in their favor.
GOD DAMN YOU PETA!!!! YOU GOT FLUTTERSHY!!!! AAH DAMN YOU!! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!!
5407731
Even if someone did mention it though, there are still arguments to be made against it. Namely, that despite them being arguably more intelligent than real-life animals, the Equestrian animals are still just that; animals. They can be trained to do whatever you want, and Fluttershy's ability to speak to them puts her in the most optimal position to train them to give consent. Like an abused wife, the animals might just defend her by 'necessity', because saying "yes" feels safer/more rewarding for them than the alternative.
Secondly, since she's the only one shown so far with the ability to speak with the animals, there would be no real way to confirm that the animals do, in fact, consent; she's the only one with the power to understand them, and she could just lie about what they say if she was so inclined.
But in the end, this is all still a matter of trust; these arguments only have footing if her friends don't trust Fluttershy to do the right thing. And they obviously do, for the most part. Having it mentioned would probably only have padded the story's length with another round of "do you X", "no", which we already had enough variations of to get the point across.
This was a lot less base than I was expecting. Nice touch with the Celestia/dragon bit.
Well, uhh... I guess it's cool if you're into that kind of thing. Just don't talk about it around me, unless you also like being covered in whatever I had for lunch that day.
5407662 I think Rarity and Twilight are kind of forced to be more accepting of things. You have the whole unicorn supremacy thing going on, so to counter the image that gives the not racist unicorns they love and tolerate everything.
Spike walks in to the room with a tray of refreshments and sees that every eye is staring at him as Rarity's sweating bullets.
"Wasup? Rarity why's every one so up tight? Where's Fluttershy? Rarity?"
Ponies are animals. A pony being sexually attracted to animals isn't bestiality.
5408662 Humans are animals too
5408990 They are indeed but we aren't talking about humans now are we?
5409053 Uh...
5408390
Yet Rarity tries to belong to the 'social elite', where if you're seen putting one hoof out of line with what they approve of you are pretty much torn to pieces and left for dead reputation and business-wise. And Twilight has /always/ been a big political figure as the personal protege of the ruler of the entire nation regardless of her not having been part of politics until super-recently.
This has one of the best endings of any story I've read. Content and arguments aside, I liked this piece a lot.
5407905 You make some good points there. I guess it would have just made the story longer, it just seemed an obvious point that was completely ignored. You're right though, it makes little difference in the end.
5409053
Yes, but in this case, we are talking about anthropomorphized animals that can speak, read, write, use tools, and do pretty much anything a normal human being would do short of casting magical spells.
So logically, the ethics involving humans and bestiality should apply to this world as much as it does in ours.
5410954 By the strictest definitions Humans are basically animals to.
5407018 This actually made me look that stuff up, and beastiality it the act of forcefully having sexual relations with animals. Zoophilia is "The act of having sexual relations with a consenting animal"...
How vulgarly depraved, "consent" is the standard to measure an actions morality. What next child molesting validation? For Pete's sake I cannot think of anything else more depraved which had not already been accepted by this diseased
modern society.
5410967
Yes but Human have can defy instinct easily, something that animals required to be trained or etc. Since ponies are very similar to human in all but body and biology, ponies are pretty much like us.
5412083 Except for the fact that they aren't.
5412095
Didn't I pretty much write that ponies are similar to us in all but body and biology? (But seeing I didn't put MLP ponies, yes)
5410967
I'm sorry, did you even read what I just typed?
While we humans are indeed animals, we're in a league of our own, with vast differences between us and the rest of nature. In fact, I think one of the most profound differences (besides the ones I've already listed, of course) is the mere fact that we realize that our behavior is animalistic, and that we throughout history have tried to transcend, if not redirect such behavior towards positive ends.
So yeah, humans are animals, but we're animals made with the essence of the divine.
5412157 There is literally nothing divine about mankind. Take one look at the world and you'll see we are more savage an animal then most actual animals.
5412193
Yeah, most of the animals I've met were certainly more intelligent than most of the people.
5412546 Never seen a Squirrel kidnapp a baby squirrel rape it murder it then bury the body in the park. They don't need to be more intelligent then us to be less vile scum then us.
5412193
Which is what I said, we are animals, we are savages, but we recognize it and try to improve ourselves. That is the whole purpose of evolution in a nutshell, to become a better being.
As for the whole divine bit, if we aren't divine, then why are we repulsed by acts of rape and murder? Why are we disgusted by acts that are considered normal within the animal kingdom?
5408662
This obviously never comes up in our world with one sapient species (us), but in fantasy and/or scifi settings, any sapient (usually language-using) species getting it on with a non-sapient species is usually considered bestiality/zoophilia.
5411163
By technical definiton, the terms "bestiality" and "zoophilia" are essentially interchangeable, but most zoophiles will probably tell you that "zoophilia" is the attraction and "bestiality" is the act of raping animals.
One thing that stood out to me about this story was Fluttershy's statement that she will only go along with animals that initiate contact. A lot of animals, most notably dolphins, and to a lesser extent dogs and horses, will try to initiate sexual contact with humans. And if prompted by a human, many are likely to follow through.
As for the issue of consent, people often say that animals cannot speak, and therefore cannot consent. But few people argue about a mute person's ability to consent based on the same issue. Animals can accept or reject sapient partners through body language just fine. But this is a moot point anyway in regards to Equestrian animals.
As for it supposedly not being natural, just as there are plenty of records of animals engaging in homosexual behavior, there have also been numerous observations of interspecies sex in the animal kingdom. After all, where else would we get ligers, zorses, and mules?
In short, I thought this was an excellent fic, and I wish that more people took a stance like this toward zoosexuality; they might think it's icky, but that doesn't mean it's immoral or wrong, and they shouldn't make snap judgements without first getting the facts.
5407018
I must say, this being the first comment on the story basically made my day. I thought everyone would hate this thing when I submitted it. I never dreamed it could come close to changing even one person's mind.
So I've got to thank you. This comment probably gave me more confidence in my writing than any other feedback I've ever received.
5407154
Me, presumably? :p
You know, I actually wasn't even sure moderation would let this story pass.
5407259
Yeah, the title and short description are kind of misleading. That was a gamble on my part. Basically, my plan was this: I thought that if people thought they story was a terrible sex comedy, their expectations would be a lot lower, so when they read this, they would more inclined to like it. Kind of underhanded, but I felt I needed every advantage I could take with this story.
For the most part, it appears to be working in my favor, but I'm not surprised it's disappointed some people.
5407383
I wouldn't go that far. I think there are legitimate reasons people would not like this story or its points.
5407615
I'd be curious what they think of the story. I did quite a bit of research into zoophilia, and tried to describe the attraction as accurately as I could.
5407662
I actually haven't read many stories where Applejack has been portrayed as bigoted, and I certainly did not want to give the impression she's not accepting in this story because she's a redneck. With this story, it kind of came down to a process of elimination.
Twilight judging Fluttershy was never even a possibility for me. Twilight's intellectual curiosity was the main factor here. She would probably find an new, almost completely unexplored sexuality fascinating. And, you know, I sort of feel the same way. Look at people's reactions to this story. With properly constructed arguments, you can make a lot of people question their hatred of zoophilia in minutes. Twilight would love that. In addition, her being basically the embodiment of everything friendship made it seem unlikely that she would abandon one of her friends for trusting her with a secret. Even if Fluttershy had told her about something even worse, like thinking about killing people, I feel like Twilight would not judge her for it, but try to help her.
Originally, I had Rarity judge Fluttershy for it, but I didn't like how that turned out. It seemed way too clichéd, and it made Rarity seem very shallow. I felt like that's what readers would expect me to do with her, so I wanted to subvert that, and present more favorable interpretation of her character. Not everything high-class has to be bigoted, after all. In addition, I couldn't make her objections sound anything but contrived and petty. ("Why, my Opal would never want to do those things with a pony!")
(5408390 Them trying not to be racist because they're unicorns never even occurred to me. For one, I don't think shaming people into being accepting works in the real world.)
I actually toyed with the idea of Pinkie Pie being the most bothered by Fluttershy coming out. That didn't work, though. It seemed much more likely that she would be basically impossible of judging anyone for anything, and the alternative was having her turn catatonic through the whole story, which was depressing.
The reason I had Applejack freak out was it legitimately seemed like she had the best reason to. For one, while she's a loyal friend, she's the Elements of Honesty. That has a good and the bad side. If she has a problem with something, she's going to say it, even if she regrets it later. Remember, Rarity says, "If I had trusted my gut, I might have said something similar." There's an implication that most of them were thinking what Applejack said, they just didn't say it. In addition, I feel that in real life, the strongest opposition to zoophilia would come from people that work with animals professionally, because they would have the strongest feelings about what "natural" relations with an animal are. I mean, we can have an armchair debate all we like, but it'd be pretty hard to deflect someone who works with animals and is like, "What's wrong with you people!?"
So yeah, that was a bit long, but that might answer some other people's questions about the characterization in the story. I hope that helps.
5407731
5407905
I think that's a good point, and it might've been a bit sloppy that I didn't address it.
One reason I didn't was I couldn't figure out how to do so without sounding awkward. I mean, if I had Fluttershy say something like, "Well, actually, animals think about sleeping with ponies more than you'd think," it kind of just makes it sound like all the animals and Equestria are sluts. Also, how would the rest of the mane six even ask about it? "What did the animals say about your sex, anyway?" Maybe I'm being obtuse, but I feel like it would have been really hard to address that issue in a way that wasn't goofy.
(5407905 In addition, I do kind of agree that, if Fluttershy is the only one in Equestria that can talk to animals, that's basically the same as no one being able to talk to animals, because no one can back up her claims. I didn't think of that, but that's a good point.)
Honestly, I've always thought her being able to talk to animals was mostly metaphorical, and it really just means that she can understand their needs better than other people. The exceptions, like Mr. Beaver's cursing, seem to be jokes and cartoon logic more than anything. That's interpretation I went with them the story, even if it contradicts canon slightly.
The main thing, though, is I think it would kind of make the story too distant from the real world. If there's another world where animals can talk, yeah, that makes the consent question a lot easier. But that's not our world, and I wanted to make readers think about our world.
5407903
Actually, if I remember right, PETA was, at one point, pro-zoophilia. Their president is credited as saying, "If a girl gets sexual pleasure from riding a horse, does the horse suffer? If not, who cares? If you French kiss your dog and he or she thinks it's great, is it wrong? We believe all exploitation and abuse is wrong…If it isn't exploitation and abuse, it may not be wrong."
They've since changed their mind, of course (apparently from the beginning to end of that article), but still, the more you know.
5408280
5409490
Thanks. I was worried the ending was too much dues ex machina, and I'm glad it didn't seem like that.
5408662
That's actually the only reason the story has the Anthro tag, despite there not been any references to hands or feet whatsoever. :p
5411841
Actually, in an earlier draft, I addressed this.
In that version of the story, bestiality is illegal in Equestria, and Twilight ends up going to Celestia to change the law and save Fluttershy. Celestia refuses to have anything to do with the change. After pressing her about it, Twilight realizes this is because Celestia has struggled with pedophiliac urges her entire immortal life, and is so terrified of giving in to them that she doesn't want to risk making any sexual deviance more acceptable. I was going to use that to explore the idea that acceptance has limits, and sometimes, even the person affected doesn't want to accept their identity.
I decided against it because it was grimdark as fuck, and seemed like it would work much better as a separate story.
I'll probably never write it, though, because it's too damn depressing.
5411163
These are the definitions I discovered, and the ones that I believe in personally:
Zoophilia/Zoosexuality/a couple other words no one actually uses: Sexual attraction to animals. (Possibly an orientation. That's the possibility the story explores.)
Bestiality: The actual act of having sex with an animal.
Beastiality: Bestiality for those without spellcheck.
Bestialist: Someone who sexually abuses animals.
Zoosadism: Sexual attraction to animal abuse, sexual or otherwise.
5412755
Dolphins do stuff like that. This guy actually addressed it in one of his MLP comics.
They're also known for initiating sexual contact with humans, to the point where someone was apparently acquitted after having sex with a dolphin because the court determined the dolphin was of legally consenting age. (I don't have a source for that because I read it in a fairly obscure book and don't really feel like googling "dolphin sex" at the moment.)
5412951 Because we aren't? The amount of terrible vile shit that goes on in the world dwarfs the good kind acts 100 to 1.
5413009 And isn't it strange that dolphins are considered to be one of the smartest animals on the planet? Seems like the better your upper brain becomes the more destructive impulses you have to fight down.
5412987
I saw this in the "Latest Submissions" box, and figured, hell, this'll probably be some mediocre clop/comedy story. So here I am, reading the thing, and...
Shit, man. This was...
The only word I can find that fits this story is "powerful." But it's more than that, because it's so well-applied. You wrote exactly what needed to be said to get your point across, yet you did it without alienating an audience. The comedy is small, and only used when it's needed to keep the tone from going too dark. The feels... This is really fantastic work. Better than very nearly all of the things I've read on this site.
It's a perfect story. Never let anyone tell you otherwise.
EDIT: I read your latest comment, and while I believe that that would make a fantastic story, it is much, much darker. I'm glad you didn't incorporate it, because to make this any longer would ruin it.
So I am to understand that you wrote this gem as a non-zoophile? I am impressed by your ability to capture many of the subtle nuances of the pro-zoophilia argument. Well done.
5412987
Trust me, you got the cliche on who's the judgmental one mixed up between AJ and Rarity. Rarity tends to be written as the "Well... it's not quite my sort of thing, but as long as it makes you happy!" Or the "Just try not to shout it from the rooftops, darling. It would certainly damage your reputation." Or the more common she just accepts whatever the conflict is (being gay, usually) or admits she's either tried her hoof at it or counts herself in their shoes.
It's been at least a hundred now that I've read personally (so there obviously must be a great deal more with a number like that) where Applejack is written as the one who has strict, almost real-world religious-type morals and can't brook anything untoward from her friends. Be they attracted to a different species, hooking up with other pony races, being gay, different philosophies, etc. She's treated as the quintessential redneck who 'makes exceptions for her friends' up until a certain point where they make her uncomfortable with confessions of their difference. She's always the first one to rail, always the first one to walk out, the first one to question if they can remain friends, the first one to get angry and start the "'Tain't natural!" rants and the other girls usually have to pull her apart from Dash who leaps to her own/whoever else's defense because Dash is /never/ written to be the one who objects and that too, is a little old. Many others tend to use the excuse of Dash's Element of Loyalty as a reason why they don't do anything mean with "precious" Dash, but I'm not seeing that here with you. But I digress.
Now, all-in-all, this is just me complaining from this whole cliche we've got going on in this community. It's not a knock against you as a writer or your story - which I enjoyed! Upvoted, tracked in case there's a continuation. It just annoys me because I don't know why people do it. Is it just because Applejack isn't whacky or zany or with enough silly powers to justify as treating her as more than the conflict? Is it because of her Southern stylization? Do they just not like her?
I have literally seen ONE story where AJ was actually completely accepting off the bat (Clarification: One story where this happens where the story is an actual meaty story, and not just a one-shot shipfic where everyone is automatically happy for whoever/whatever). It was heartwarming for me, and interesting because it ended up being Pinkie and Fluttershy who could not reconcile with the differences due to their poor childhood teachings. Like a breath of fresh air, you know?
Any way, again, mostly just confusion and a bit of annoyance as to why people do that. You've explained your headcanon, and I both respect that and don't see a need to lump you in with the people who vex me.
5413020
Which is precisely why we value good, because it is a scarce commodity. My own people have experienced pretty much every atrocity imaginable, from the Roman coliseums, to the cossack pogroms, to the Holocaust. And yet, in spite of all that (in fact, precisely because of it), we still believe in humankind's capability for improvement.
While humans are capable of great evil, which we see every day, they are also capable of great good. As mans evil on this earth intensifies, there will always be people who'll be disgusted by it and will move towards the opposite direction. Every reaction begets an equal and opposite reaction.
Furthermore, my original argument was that you can't justify bestiality by humans and ponies by saying "since we're also animals, it's okay" because ponies and humans have characteristics that drive a divide between them and animals. It's also similar to saying that murder is okay because animals do it. It sets a bad precedent.
But I can see that this argument is getting nowhere with you. I have said my piece, and now I will leave in peace. I wish you well.
5413606 Don't play the jew card against a jew sir it won't get you anywhere.