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Estee


On the Sliding Scale Of Idealism Vs. Cynicism, I like to think of myself as being idyllically cynical. (Patreon page.)

Sequels1

T

Princess.

Some hear the word and think of power. Others take it further. To move Sun, to create the cycle of day and night... surely that indicates something more. Something which can be called on. Pleaded with.

Celestia knows what ponies believe about her. She also knows there's no way to make them stop. Because there are times when the most powerful weapon against despair is faith...

...and the blade is always double-edged.

(Part of the Triptych Continuum, which has its own TVTropes page and FIMFiction group. New members and trope edits welcome.)

Now with author Patreon page.

Chapters (1)
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Comments ( 108 )

So... ponies think that she could save lives, but chooses not to. And they're okay with this. They think it's their fault.

What can you do, when the fact of your existence makes ponies hurt themselves that much?

Estee #2 · Jun 20th, 2014 · · 2 ·

4572165

Congratulations. You just summed up several of the world's major religions. :pinkiesad2:

Great story.
(I'd tag it as tragedy, though.)

This story is so painfully beautiful... And that last line is so gut-wrenchingly cruel...

I shall now begin a quest to find a suitable Celestia plush, so I can hug it so tight that the Celestia of this story feels it, and is comforted by it.

Congratulations, for this story is a true masterpiece. In my opinion, your finest.

Curl up in a ball. :fluttershyouch:
Try not to cry. :fluttershysad:
Cry a lot. :fluttercry:

Well, that was heartbreaking.

Great writing, as always, and with some interesting worldbuilding details. What was the spell that Celestia tried only once? Necromancy to raise the dead? And who did she use it on? I have a theory of my own, but it might be completely wrong of course.

4574375 The curse of immortality for those who do not LEARN from it.

Celestia has spent too much time wallowing in her own helplessness to know what she COULD do.

When the most capable despair, there is no hope for any.

4572195 Yes, unfortunately most of the religions lost the initial message. If one looks at the foundation of Christianity, for instance, miracles were the exception, not the rule, nor even the point.

People wish to be freed from pain, while it it was the prophets who suffered the most. They did not seek salvation in this life, for their faith was in what was to come.

What's worse, one wonders: to have an absent god, or a powerless one? Celestia could scour the world clean of life with fire, but she could not heal a burn from a stovetop or restore sight to the blind. One wonders how long any religion would survive should its deity live among its followers, able to destroy them, but not to save them.

I do find it interesting that Celestia still believes in a hereafter of some sort. Does she have a place there, herself, when the sun no longer needs to rise?

4574226 I found that to be the single weakness in this story (also it was an alt-universe Celestia, and so doesn't really reflect the Celestia of the show... since the canon one actually can enter that weird astral zone and so is kind of a demigod for certain now).

Why would necromancy be possible... but not life-support and healing spells far better than anything our technology could manage?

The suggestion that such a thing as necromancy is even possible throws a monkey wrench into the point of the entire story, since it's something only a god-like/intensely and subtly powerful being could actually manage. Once you can animate a dead body and keep it from falling apart from decay... you basically already have what you need to completely repair a living being.

There's also age spells. Celestia could have aged the immature foal a few months and matured all its organs.

But, this brings me back to what I saw in the story: SURRENDER TO DESPAIR. Celestia has lost the battle within herself. She cannot see the possibilities. She cannot even try to learn how to save her subjects lives through the incredible magic their world posseses. She's so focused on not having miraculous powers that's she's totally forgotten that she has a plethora of practical capabilities. She has failed. (And I don't see Luna doing much better, honestly.)

4574576
4574226

I can't answer all of this right now. (I've said it before: it is incredibly confining to have one's own viewpoint fall under Spoiler Alert.) But I will say this about that 'once' spell: it is not reanimation of a dead body. There are clues scattered throughout the stories, here and there, and this was the first time I've had Celestia say directly that she's responsible for something which (I hope) might be starting to come together in the background.

It only begins when the pony dies and she doesn't know if it works. A zombie would be fairly obvious.

Age spells... as with the show, I have them as incredibly difficult to cast, with only a few ponies in the history of the world having made a successful attempt. The Princesses aren't necessarily among that number. Celestia and Luna have more learning capability than nearly any pony, but they don't know every working. And age spells are strictly short-term. Even with alicorn strength behind them, you might get a day or so. When they wear off... everything goes back to what it was. It might be possible to briefly extend a life through an age spell, but potentially saving one would require casting after casting... and at each reversion, the chance for total loss.

As for surrendering to despair... everypony has their bad days. This is Celestia on one of her worst, or at least one with the worst triggers setting it off. I had a post in one Group thread where I said this is how you emotionally scar Celestia (and Twilight is dealing with her own first iterations of the issue). The world has been kicking her in the snout with this for centuries, with no signs of backing down.

She hasn't given up: she comes back to herself given time (or has so far). With somepony else present, it's faster. But memories accumulate, as do the kicks -- and at some point, everypony begins to ask 'Why?'

4574553

I do want to give her the J.J.Flash trick: if she reaches a burn quickly enough, she can pull the heat out and prevent some degree of damage. But yes, her healing capabilities are generally limited to efficient acceleration of what a pony body could already do.

The pony relationship with the shadowlands is... not going to be explored for a while. For now, I'll just say that nopony's ever openly reported back.

4574576
Actually the real issue is transmutation magic. If you can turn an apple into an orange and a mouse into a hideous abomination of nature then turning a sick organ into a healthy one is trivial by comparison. Some might say that all transformations are temporary. But Batshy contradicts that. If it was a simple matter of waiting the transformation out the episodes resolution would be very different. Also if you use the comics Twilight straight up permanently turns an Earth Pony into a Sea Pony so he can be with his True Love.

4574748

Huzzah for my both not having reached S4 and planning not to use a great deal of it!

I can safely say that Sea Pony story ain't happening.

4572195 Excuse me, sir. I hope this isn't a bit much to ask of you, but my curiosity needs to be quenched. What was your inspiration to write this story? Is there any particular point you wanted to make? It is in my experience that stories these this have a meaning to them. A worldview, so to speak.

Thank you, and I apologize if this is not a legitimate question.
-Chadbane

4572442 From the FIMFiction FAQ:

In a Tragedy, the heroine fights through amazing odds to achieve her objective, and just as she's about to get there, she fails through her own folly, or perhaps because she cannot fight fate in the end after all. Ultimately the hero fails; their friend dies; the world ends... our hero dies. Any outcome, as long as it involves the hero's failure in their struggle and the bitter result of it is what makes a Tragedy... a Tragedy.

There's no struggle here, Celestia knows the outcome from the very beginning. The only question is which one of a few familiar patterns will be followed.

4575874
Her struggle is against being looked at as a deity when she is not. She does everything she can to convince him that she is not, and she fails, and he makes it worse by blaming himself by "not having enough faith". It is a battle she has fought for thousands of years and failed every time. It is very much a tragedy.
EDIT: That the outcome is known only makes it that much more of a tragedy because she holds onto the singular hope, that fervent wish, that this time... this time it will be different.

4575991 I see your point. I still think Tragedy's a bit of a stretch though.

4574639 Well, we don't really know what the duration of the age spell is from the show.

Trixie deliberately dispelled it. It never had the chance to wear off.

We've seen some of Twilight's transformations (the orange-bird mutant things) hold stable for quite some time. And certainly, magically repaired items don't just fall apart.

Of course, that's pretty much because the magic of the show only works in the way needed for the particular episode most of the time. There's too little internal consistency to be sure if there are any rules to much of it. :twilightblush:

Really.... Really.... Good! :applecry:

4574748 Even in the show, we have the orange-bird transmutations that were stable in the long term.

The important point in the story to me is Celestia is so caught up in her depression she can't see obvious answers. This is a very accurate depiction of people who feel hopeless.

Can someone please explain? I don't really understand...:twilightblush:

4577201

You're going to have to narrow that down a little.

4577087

Of course, that's pretty much because the magic of the show only works in the way needed for the particular episode most of the time. There's too little internal consistency to be sure if there are any rules to much of it.

Which is part of why creating consistent rules for these stories and making magic into a tool instead of a catch-all solution is such a piece of worldbuilding major pain in the rear.


4575080

What was your inspiration to write this story? Is there any particular point you wanted to make? It is in my experience that stories these this have a meaning to them. A worldview, so to speak.

I generally feel that most people respond to my going full-scale writer's workshop in the same way, in-'verse, that ponies automatically behave when Twilight launches into a speech about Star Swirl: the only ones not faking falling asleep on the spot in order to teach her a lesson? Actually did.

But... you asked, so...

This story is part of a set: what's come to be called the Triptych Continuum. To varying degrees, the stories within that group are meant to work together and support each other. I try to write them so that they can be read individually, with no need to explore the entire collection in order to understand what's going on -- but at the same time, so that anyone who has been through them all gets a new piece of the whole design with each fresh release. It's a juggling act, and I probably drop most of the balls.

One of the stories within that group is set shortly after Twilight's ascension. And within that story, she is pretty much forced at hornpoint to attend a birth -- one which, almost from the start, begins going wrong. And it does so while the pegasus on the birthing table has faith in Twilight, because a Princess is attending the arrival of her foal and that's something which is bringing blessing.

That birth works out: the foal arrives safely. But it's through nothing Twilight does: the mare simply assigns her all the credit. And Twilight realizes that's going to be the first of many. That as ponies invoke the names of the sisters in their vows, sometimes even praying to them, the same thing is going to happen to her. This happy new mother is going to talk about what happened. Teach her filly about the true source of miracle. Attending the birth, to Twilight, feels like the launch point for the faith future generations of ponies are going to have in her. Faith without base. Pleading to somepony who can't do anything.

It's not a happy realization.

Later on, in this other story (which is actually set earlier in the timeline), Celestia winds up doing some door-to-door visits around Ponyville. The sisters have decided to have a solar eclipse -- a deliberate recreation of an artifact from Discord's era, as the modern cycle of Sun and Moon means they're never in the sky at the same time -- in honor of the second anniversary of Luna's Return. It turns out that some ponies don't respond well to the proposal because, you know, bringing back something from Discord's era which is visibly blocking out Sun. And so the sisters begin educating ponies, with some of that winding up as one-on-one. In that section, it's mentioned that some citizens use the time to beg Celestia for blessing -- 'and there were very few words which had the power to make her as heartsick as that accursed utterance made in sincerity and faith.'

So the echoes are starting to build. In this setting, some ponies -- and not a small number -- see the alicorns as some level of deity. Something you can pray to. (That first story actually set the trap before the birthing scene, with Rainbow leading the group in an invocation of Luna, one meant for wanderers seeking safety under Moon.) And they're not. It's an illusion ponies have created on their own, something they almost need to believe, because it gives them something to believe in. Twilight is just starting to deal with it. Celestia has been trying to work through the consequences for a very long time.

And the final trigger: in a post I made for the collection's FIMFic Group, I said that if you want to emotionally scar Celestia, ask her to bless you. And when it doesn't work, say what was said in the story itself.

I started thinking about that.

(Here's where the post downvotes probably come in.)

Here's an example using Christianity:

What if Jesus came to you? Proved his identity in a way no one could dispute? And then said "I'm just a man who figured out how to do an amazing sleight-of-hand with bread and fillets. I had some ideas, and I managed to get people behind me... but other things just happened around us, and... I got the credit. Stories started to spread. Some of them were things I'd never done in places I'd never been to. Words attributed to me which I'd never spoken, ordering things I'd never want to happen at all. I did a few things, yes... but everything else built up around me, and I... couldn't stop it..."

Would you feel he was telling the truth?

Or just that it was a test of your faith? Because in the way so many people treat their faith, you're not supposed to accept doubt. Anyone challenging you is just going to make you believe all the harder, and if that challenge comes from the highest possible source, then that must mean the test is a truly important one...

Celestia has an advantage of sorts: she still exists as a living being. She can track what ponies are saying about her, try to respond directly, clarify the record here and there. But in this setting, there are falsehoods which have been written into that record: history became legend and in turn, legend became history. And no matter what she says or does... some ponies simply believe.

For this setting, ultimately, the alicorns are ponies. Ponies with capabilities which others lack -- but still ponies. Just ponies.

What if the deity you believed in was not... and the faith was still there?

What does that do to the one who is believed in, knowing the prayers are coming and you can't hear any of them, you can't respond, and that ultimately, you're helpless and ponies are going to die with your name as the last thing spoken in a final unanswered plea for absent salvation?

This is what it does to the local Celestia: it hurts.

Forever.


[/hr]

You asked. I answered.

Everyone else can wake up now.

4578901 Well, all I get is that someone needed Celestia's help, and wanted a blessing, but she wouldn't give it. Why did Fajr suddenly come busting in shouting, "I knew you could do it!" and what did it mean by "Sparks"? The ending I kinda get

4578960

Which gives me something I can answer: thankee.

Consider the scene when he trots in on her: her head is down, horn practically touching his daughter, her corona is active and the field is visibly around the foal. She's visibly casting and the subject of that spell is the pony he's been begging her to save. To a desperate mind, one which had been begging for a miracle, what would that look like?

He came back at exactly the wrong moment, and saw something it was far too easy to see. His words were the reaction to how he was seeing it.

With the sparks... the spells placed by the doctors around Aurora's body are monitoring her. In order to provide updates, little bits of that energy regularly leave those fields and return to the original casters, carrying information with them. (That's why the door has to be left slightly open: that energy can't go through a solid barrier.) Most of the time, that information is just a 'nothing's changed' message, but it still has to be delivered regularly: a spark here, another there, little bursts of traveling power. But if something goes wrong, all the medical casters have to be notified at once, quickly -- and then multiple sparks fly at speed. It's the pony equivalent of having a machine sound a Code Blue.

And it's not 'wouldn't give'. It's 'couldn't'. The difference is everything.

4578985 Ah. Thanks :pinkiesmile:
But....didn't she do it once before? Cast the spell, I mean

4578989

She levitated him to be on eye level with her when they were sitting together, but she hadn't used a working on Aurora before that. (The eavesdrop-blocking spell was worked through a hidden field: locally, it's possible to learn a means of making low-power unicorn spells invisible, but the process tends to warp the castings. In this case, it shortened the duration by A Lot.) The spell Celestia was using on his daughter when he came in was still being actively and openly cast, so all the visual evidence was there.

4579010 No, I mean the revivification spell

A poignant, powerful piece. There's a lot to say about this, but I can't find the words. This was just pure sorrow, crushing futility on all fronts... but one. Thank you for a wonderful story.

That said, this only makes Celestia's complete failure to tell Twilight anything about being a princess even worse. :ajbemused:

4579013

*nods* Understood. But that's one I can't say too much about right now, as it ties into things elsewhere which haven't been completely revealed. Until it fully comes out, all I can do is suggest people look closely at Celestia's exact wording -- and apologize for not being able to give more.

4578901

What if Jesus came to you? Proved his identity in a way no one could dispute? And then said "I'm just a man who figured out how to do an amazing sleight-of-hand with bread and fillets. I had some ideas, and I managed to get people behind me... but other things just happened around us, and... I got the credit. Stories started to spread. Some of them were things I'd never done in places I'd never been to. Words attributed to me which I'd never spoken, ordering things I'd never want to happen at all. I did a few things, yes... but everything else built up around me, and I... couldn't stop it..."
Would you feel he was telling the truth?

Or just that it was a test of your faith? Because in the way so many people trait their faith, you're not supposed to accept doubt. Anyone challenging you is just going to make you believe all the harder, and if that challenge comes from the highest possible source, then that must mean the test is a truly important one...

A very interesting question, since I myself am a Christian. My faith is based on the belief, as you have excellently pointed out, that Jesus died on the cross and rose again on the third day to save the world from its sins. One of the many things that reassures me that my faith is true, is the fact that it isn't a blind faith. That is, all the stories in the Bible are at least based off true events that occurred in the same way or in another manner.

With that said, I have little doubts, but I would be lying if I said I never had any. What you gave was a perfect example of a misunderstanding in this story, resulting in a blind faith. Difference is, Jesus told everyone blankly that he was the son of God, while Celestia, in this story, never said anything of the sort. Adding on to that, Jesus' disciples all died for him one after the other because they knew what he had done was true, and not just some trick. Why would he let Twelve of his closest friends perish for a lie, and why would Twelve of his closest friends volunteer themselves to be martyrs for a lie?

The story of Jesus and the cross is a true story. We know that from Roman historical records. So the same principle needs to be applied to him. Why would Jesus give up himself for a lie? Why would he perish if he knew that all he had done was a trick? Then the last question remains... why was the tomb found empty three days later? Some people will argue this event never took place. In fact, up until the last century, people wouldn't argue whether Jesus existed or not, but rather if he did indeed raise from the dead. It wasn't until recently that people started claiming Jesus didn't exist in the first place at all.

Well, sorry for the lengthy response, but I felt the need to explain what was on my mind to you. Just a thought I'd like you to ponder. I very much like the concept you gave, and it certainly has people thinking. I'm glad to have an intelligent discussion with a gentlemen who respects others as I do. You have a good day, sir!

-Chadbane

4578901 I've decided to look at it more along the Harry Potter way of magic: the rules that exist are fairly few, and don't actually make much sense regardless.

Like not being able to make food from nothing. That just doesn't make sense if you can conjure paper, wood, and other materials composed of the same substances as vegetables.

But, so long as that rule is consistently applied, it attains a level of plausibility in that world because it's a stated rule.

So, until Pony gives us rules forbidding certain things, anything's fair game.

4579144 If Jesus came to me and said that everything he did was a trick, first of all... it means he'd been alive for 2,000 years or travelled 2,000 years into the future.

Both are things impossible for a normal man.

So, yeah, that right there would give me some serious pause.

It'd probably be Satan pretending to be Jesus.

:trollestia:

4579144 Many people, Christians included, tend to completely forget the gospel of Christ and instead focus on the miracles.

Christ was not about curing everything everywhere and making life a perfect paradise on Earth.

No, it was about being a witness, proclaiming the Word, and preparing people for what was to come.

"Pick up your cross and follow me" is what He said. Implicitly, this means that those who follow the Word are going to be severely challenged, for if the Word is true, then so also is Satan the prince of this world. He is imprisoned here in his hatred and wrath, his whole remaining existence in his bound and broken state dedicated to destroying as much as possible before he is destroyed.

4580338 What you have said is true. I have been raised to believe and understand this thoroughly. Thank you for the friendly reminder, and remember that I am always open to an intelligent discussion. I have but one question left on my mind.

Are you a Christian? If not, I respect your decision and will only continue this conversation if you are comfortable with it. If indeed you are a Christian, I will be more than happy to carry this discussion further. Whichever you be, have a good night, sir!

-Chadbane

4582109 I am, a Seventh Day Adventist, to be exact.

I do like studying the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, as the symbolism is quite striking and enigmatic. It's a puzzle as to what is meant in many cases.

The dream of Nebuchadnezzar of the idol of various materials was particularly intriguing to me, as it appeared to correctly tell the history of the Western-dominant powers up to the breakup of the Roman Empire into the countries of the Mediterranean and Western Europe. I should like to know how old the oldest copy of that prophecy is (probably it resides in an Iraq museum if an ancient copy exists from the time of the Babylonian empire). The older it is, the more astonishing its accuracy.

I've also begun to study other major religions and their origins. Buddhism is also very interesting because in many Buddhist nations the monks kept so many ancient writings preserved. It's possible to trace the development with extraordinary precision.

PM me and we can discuss things as time permits me.

4582602 As you see fit. Until we speak again!

-Chadbane

So that's how to hurt Celestia.

4574639
So the "once" spell is supposed to work with a pony's mind/soul/essence, not body, and Celestia can't observe it. Maybe it has something to do with where a pony's essence goes?

I wonder if the spell-that-is-not-to-be-cast-again was used on Sombra, back in the day... Probably not. But it would explain some things about him!

4580338

Yes, people often pay too much attention on Christ and not nearly enough on what he taught. It's as if you pointed out something, and everyone focused on your hand instead of the thing you point at.

4588230 Well, that's how you hurt THIS Celestia.

Remember, the canon Celestia seems to be far less angsty, and her ponies less fanatically worshipful. They respect her, and even fear her to some respect, which is entirely understandable given her powers. Heck, we'd be pretty nervous around a guy who could throw the Sun around at will, immortal or not!

Remember how freaked out humans were over mutants, which is the primary theme of the majority of X-Men's core storylines.

But, in the show, there is no sign that the ponies WORSHIP Celestia. In fact, they don't really seem to think about her much in their day-to-day lives.

Don't fall into the trap of using a personal fanfiction's take on a character as a set standard. :raritywink:

4588307

That was the vibe I got at first, but the earlier Estee comment that she has no idea if it worked or not rules him seemingly out.

4578901

If you have not seen it, I suggest viewing The Man From Earth, because it explores some of these concepts, including one very well I don't wish to spoiler.

4579144
Except...the evidence for that is in a book, and the support for it is the book itself. We have evidence the historical figure likely existed, but the divinity is expressed through the book that offers the claim to divinity.

Accepting the premise of that book is the faith aspect. And if someone were to come and prove that yes, they were there, they experienced it, they were in fact the central figure and the book was WRONG and did not happen that way, what then?

As a more general purpose comment - I find it interesting that she hasn't fully detached after so many centuries. That much pain, and well...it is like physicians, as the story so aptly notes. Celestia not becoming...dulled in certain ways, I can both see it happening and yet be surprised by it.

Though, the idea that there are spells she cannot learn - I do not know. A thousand years is a long, long, long time. Long enough to learn how to do nigh anything, and even if magic is like athletics where certain physiques have a natural advantage...if someone had spent a century training continuously to run marathons, I would be willing to bet on them even if they weren't the 'ideal' bone-height structure.

Now, that she has tried - and up to this point failed, to the point she has convinced herself she cannot, because the pain of those failures is too great - that I would understand. Perhaps she could in fact gain that talent for healing that has thusfar eluded her. But she is too broken by trauma to be willing to wound herself further.

4611478 I'd agree with you, only I believe historical records prove that he did in fact preform miracles. Josephus, a roman historian only a few years after the death of Jesus, writes that the miracles did in fact take place. He also writes about the death of Jesus on the cross, and many other things, including eye witness accounts.

The question remains... why would Jesus' disciples die for him AFTER his death if he did, in fact, NOT raise from the dead? Why would they be willing to die for a lie? Further more, why would Jesus let himself die for a lie? He could have said he wasn't the son of God and saved himself.

Anyway, have a good day sir!

-Chadbane

4611651

Ma'am, actually :)

Also - the key things are here that there are other historical texts for other belief systems that make similar claims. A perfect example is the Iliad & Odyssey. There's a good amount of evidence suggesting there's a historical basis for the mythical Trojan War, but does that mean it was actually brought about by Eris throwing the Apple of Discord?

The thing is that those suppositions you are working on operate off of a foundation that assumes that the events depicted biblically happened in a similar manner in true historical fact - when again, one can look at the Trojan War and see what several centuries can do to alter a story from its original form.

But even then, there are many reasons things could still happen - why would people die for a lie? They might have suffered from mental illness; schizophrenia, for example, can lead to one hearing 'divine' voices. They might have believed the lie, and so sacrificed themselves for it - if one accepts Christianity is true, for example, then all those who die advancing their interpretation of Islam are dying for a lie. The record may have been distorted; perhaps they did not go willingly, but were rounded up and executed, and the myth was laid on it to give them more staying power.

Or, of course, it is possible that the historical Jesus did not in fact die on the cross, but rather only appeared dead. There are many ways to slow the body's metabolic processes down in such a way that someone appears dead to the outside observer, when in reality everything is moving so slowly and subtly as to be undetectable. Something like that would allow for a 'resurrection'.

These are only part of a small range of possibilities. If you wish to accept the Biblical account, that is fine! That is what faith is founded on. But the Bible is not a scholarly historical document; if what was in there could be conclusively demonstrated to have occurred as it claims it occurred, there would be far fewer atheists in academia.

And as such - the point remains that if someone could prove to be Jesus, and state that they were not in fact the son of God, not divine, but merely something else...what then? That is the question at hoof in this story.

4612029

But the Bible is not a scholarly historical document; if what was in there could be conclusively demonstrated to have occurred as it claims it occurred, there would be far fewer atheists in academia.

The Bible is hailed by many to be extremely historically accurate. Obviously that quote of yours was was an opinion, if I can say so respectably, ma'am. Josh McDowell, a famous Atheist-turned-Christian, wanted to prove that Jesus, in fact, did not exist, and never died on the cross for our sins. However, he found just the opposite, and wrote many books proving the accuracy of the Bible.

One of these books is called, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict." It's a book that uses historical documents, mostly written by NON-CHRISTIAN HISTORIANS that recorded many of the biblical events and found them to be true. Take Josephus for example.

Josephus was a Non-Christian historian that recorded the miracles of Jesus and eye-witness accounts of his death and rezurrection (Google him). It is a well known fact that Jesus did in fact exist, and it's highly unlikely that any of his disciples were with an illness (especially since it is recorded that Jesus did, in fact, heal people from their diseases).

That being said, I ask once again, why would the disciples die for a lie if Jesus had NOT risen from the dead? I know that I, for one, completely believe in a divine creator for personal reasons. I have experienced things that I believe to be true miracles that on one else can prove otherwise.

For example, before I was born, the doctor told my mother that she had an illness that would pass on to me when she gave birth--if she ever did, for she was missing half an ovary. However, I WAS born, and I do not have the sickness nor a trace of it, which is something that astounds the doctor even today. Believe what you will of my story, but please consider the words I have said.

I hope you have a very good evening, ma'am, and I do apologize for calling you a 'sir' earlier.

-Chadbane

4613352

I will admit, I am not going to delve further into a 'Is it or is it not a historical document' because this isn't the appropriate venue for it, and I suspect all that would happen is we would end up talking past one another which really wouldn't do anything for either of us.

But, again, on the last part, several hypothetical answers to that question -
1. The book in question is inaccurate and fuzzed by history. We already know certain bits of Christian belief are that way, like Christmas being celebrated in December, largely because it co-opted the Solstice and similar festivals.
2. They were deceived in some way, such as a faked death-resurrection combo.
3. Delusions/mental illness.

You are free to accept or reject those as you will. The point is not to argue any of them did happen, but rather they could have happened and would fit the parameters you've lined out.

4579013
She cast "it" once, and the results of the spell are something she's unable to observe. Ergo, whatever the spell is or is supposed to do, it isn't reviving a sick pony. That it was a favor to a friend and that the spell can only be cast as a pony dies implies that it may be something like a free pass into Heaven-equivalent.

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