First Negotiations
Where I Talk About Things I Find Mildly Disturbing In Equestria Online
So, after reading through the comments section, I've had some mildly disturbing thoughts about Equestria Online. I spent some time looking up some information on the internet and talking to a friend (that I know in person) who also has the game, and I think I'm finally ready to share my thoughts on it.
First of all, something that is simultaneously the most blatant and most subtle disturbing thing I have found: the fact that the game censors me trying to talk about things outside of it. It's not so much that it does it, but rather how it does it. Take, for example, when I told Forest Trails that I was doing a Let's Play. That isn't easy to censor. In fact, I would argue that it is next to impossible to censor.
Take a look at it. The censoring needed to start on the words "doing a." Neither of those words is blatantly breaking character. The only way to censor the sentence properly and in real time is if the game was able to predict the exact words I would say before I said them. This, of course, should be completely impossible.
Why? Well, let's take the fact that it would require the sending of a massive amount of data to a server. Once the server had that data, it would have to store it, then call it back and calculate what I was most likely to say in the next second. It would have to do this on a spotty connection, at the same time as doing it for the couple million other people that were online. The amount of processing power that takes blows any supercomputer that I've heard of out of the water.
The other possibility, that the pads themselves are handling it, is even more crazy. It would mean each one is able to handle operations that I suspect would give the Cray Titan indigestion. That might be overstating how powerful each pad would have to be, but as I have not seen any evidence of predictive modelling in any computer news in the last few years, I am going to have to go with my gut.
But see, that's not the really scary part. Oh no, the really scary part is the fact that this technology exists. See, I remember back a few years ago to when a guy called Eliezer Yudkowsky did a test. He showed that if an AI was ever built that could reason decently, it could escape any man made containment and make it onto the net to do just about anything. The thing that scared me about the test that he performed is that it proved that anyone could be convinced to do anything. So, suddenly realizing that Equestria Online is capable of modelling my interactions with such a high degree of success is extremely worrying. It seems like it wouldn't take much to change the code so that I could be forced into any mindset the creators wanted me to be in.
This is tech that could win wars without a single shot being fired. It is the the ultimate goal in the war for hearts and minds. What on earth is it doing in a computer game?! Even more worrying, who else has this tech right now, and what are they doing with it?
Remember that earlier I said "First of all". Does that mean there's more? Turns out, there is! See, while the predictive modelling is the most scary, I can safely say that Celestia is an AI. Once I got thinking about the fact that she she doesn't have a dialog tree, and instead spoke to players directly, it was pretty obvious. Hofvarpnir doesn't have enough employees for the logistics to work out. I don't even think all of Hasbro has enough people employed. Also, we would have seen people blogging about it and heard leaks, no matter how awesome the non-disclosure agreement was.
So, this means that Hofvarpnir has both an AI, and real time predictive software. I don't believe that anything in this world is unique, so while they might be using it for something nice and non-evil like this game, what are the other people who have this technology doing? What wars are going on right now? How many of my decisions are my own, and how many are being forced on me by AIs and predictive modelling?
Is there any way to tell?
I will say this; I'm still sure that Forest Trails is another player. There is no way that Hofvarpnir has enough computing power to run two AIs, and even if they did they wouldn't be using them for random NPCs.
Something Else A Lot Less Worrying: Experiencing Equestria!
I started today’s session by spinning around in circles while waiting for Forest Trails to show up. Chatoyance said that there was an achievement for it, and I was kind of curious. I actually got caught up with how well the motion blur on the world looked, and ended up getting the achievement for falling over as well.
Of course, that was when Forest Trails showed up. She came from the back of the cave that we had explored the day before. When she arrived she just gave me a look and shook her head. “What are you doing?”
“Playing?” I said. I wasn't sure exactly how to say that I had gotten caught up in the graphics without looking silly. Sillier, at any rate.
She giggled. “So, have you figured out what what you want to do about the roc eggs yet?”
“Actually, I wanted to ask you some questions about that. I wasn't thinking yesterday, but I was talking it over and I realized I didn't know enough to make an informed decision.” I sat down on a rock and pointed at the eggs. “Are Rocs dangerous monsters?”
Looking at the nest
Forest Trails looked thoughtful for a second before shrugging, “Sort of. They occasionally attack houses to get building material for their nests, and don't much care for anypony they hurt in the houses when they lift them away. They don't eat ponies, but then again, most creatures know better than to attack ponies.”
I nodded, thinking that this meant the birds were a threat, but not evil. “Are they intellegent? If I remember right, ponies have agreements with cows and chickens. Are Rocs smart enough to reason with too?”
“Well, they're smart enough that they'll understand what you're saying, but they can't talk and they are extremely temperamental. Some ponies have managed to convince them to work with them, but the agreements never last long. The birdbrains always forget them, or just decide that they don't want to follow through on their end of the bargain.” She looked at me. “Are you thinking of trying to reason with it?”
“Well, I was considering it, but I'm not sure how I would go about it. I would feel wrong just stealing them though, since the Rocs are intelligent.” I stood up and started to pace.
Forest Trails shook her head, “I think you're over thinking this,” then she paused, “That said, now I can't stop thinking of the mother coming back to find her eggs missing. Now I don't want to take them either.” She glared at me, “And it would have been well worth it, too... Lots of bits for just a bit of work hauling them into Canterlot.”
“I was actually more interested in raising one myself,” I replied, “I would kind of like to raise one and befriend it.”
As we had been talking I had been pacing away from the eggs, and Trails had turned to look at me. I stopped when I saw something big and white roll up next to me. I swung around and there was the mother roc sitting in her nest looking at us. She must have landed silently while we were talking, and had pushed an egg in my direction.
Forest Trails turned and let out an “Eeep!”, taking several quick steps back to stand by me. I understood why. The Roc was huge. It was big enough that both Trails and I could have ridden on it, along with maybe four other ponies. It had dark wings, though not as dark as a raven or crow, and had the basic shape of an eagle. You know, if an eagle could have swallowed us in one gulp. I took one look and decided that I would not want to have to fight it until I was a much much higher level.
I looked down at the egg, and then back up at the mother, “Are you giving this to me?”
The roc gave a bob of its head and let out a crooning sound.
“I'll be sure to raise it well.” I had an impulse and decided to go with it, making Susland bow. “I am in your debt, and should you ever need assistance, you only ever need to ask and I shall return this favour.”
The roc let out a loud screech and bobbed its head once more. I picked up the egg, which was smaller than I would have thought considering how massive the roc was and turned and walked back the way we had come. Forest Trails paced me the entire way.
“I can't believe that worked,” she said when we were out of range of hearing.
“I'm right there with you. I'm not even sure what happened.” I glanced behind me even though there was nothing to see.
“I think,” Forest Trails said, “I finally know why Roc eggs are so expensive. I'm really glad we didn't steal it. It's one thing to see them from a distance, but another to actually be face to face with one.”
“Yeah. I think I'm ready to go and see Celestia now. We can find that book on how to raise a roc when we get to Canterlot.” I stopped talking as we carefully made our way down the platforming cave I had struggled with yesterday. It was easier going down than up, for which I was grateful. I didn't want to see if this game would model the effects of dropping a nearly hatched egg on stone.
“What are you going to name her?” Forest Trails asked when we reached the bottom.
I raised and eyebrow. “How do you know it's a her?”
“Mare's intuition!” she replied with her customary smirk returning.
I coughed. “But... that's not a thing! That's a myth propagated by people who are wise not wanting to explain how they reached their conclusions!”
We continued arguing about woman's intuition as we walked down the mountain. I honestly can't remember the entire argument, and I'm pretty sure it would bore everyone anyway. Suffice to say that neither of us won, but it was a lot of fun, anyway.
We are also fairly close to Canterlot now. I should be able to get there tomorrow, and I admit that I am really looking forward to it. I have a whole bunch of theories about Celestia that I want to try and disprove (as any good rationalist should).
A Short Wrap Up To The Events Of The Day
Normally, I would go on about something cool that I found in the game at this point. Unfortunately, today I used all the time I would do for that to flesh out the theories at the start of this post. I will say, though, that I really like the sound, and that I think that the speakers on the Pony Pad are as good quality as my hundred dollar speakers attached to my computer. They might even be better.
Achievements Achieved During This Play Session
First Pet – Get your first pet. Just remember to feed and water it!
Polly Want a Cracker? - Successfully bargain with a bird for the first time.
I Feel Dizzy – See the world go by again and again.
I Fall Down and Go Boom – See the world go by too many times in a row.
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Have you ever thought about just what kind of favor a roc could ask for? I think you were fine at saying you would raise it well.
3210325
A good point; I got caught up in the moment and ended up using my old books as a referance. Still as I understand it, they aren't evil, so hopefully it won't be anything too bad.
I'm with you on how creepy the game is. I'm in a D&D game, so I had my sourcebooks out to check on some finer rule details to continue a quest line's progression. I was getting nowhere on it, so I put it aside. Later, when I got on, I was talking to a pony in a bookstore when he casually remarked about an "Ancient Legends" section. It had essentially the entire questline up to the point I had designed it, along with exactly where I wanted to take it next. It even had a plot twist I hadn't thought of. It was a custom-made campaign, too, so it wasn't online. That camera is really good, and the software probably makes an entire city block's worth of Cray Titans look like a TI-30 in comparison. That gives me an idea: maybe *covers up Ponypad* I'll start doing my homework in front of it, and it'll start helping me there, too.
Oh God, you've invoked the Eldritch Name of Big Yud the wannabe prophet. And called yourself a "rationalist". Now we're gonna be flooded in LessWrong douchebags. It would make good sense, actually, if Celestia was an AI, but Ben Goertzel has been hawking AI for video game characters for a while now. None of it has gone mad and destroyed the world. Keep calm, and carry on.
(Besides, it's not like in the movies. There's a huge variety of programs we call "AI" that do all kinds of different stuff, most of which can be used in video games, and none of which are creepy once you know how the "magic trick" is done. They teach this stuff to us in undergrad.)
Now, on to vastly more important things: YOU GOT A ROC EGG! This means we can be PET BUDDIES
!
Once I make my way inland enough to find a phoenix to ask for an egg, anyway.
Also, OTHER vastly more important thing: duuuude, Forest Trails totally likes you. If you don't have a preexisting sweetheart, I hear wedding bells ringing in Canterlot!
3211259
Well it is kind of easy if you are a unicorn. You end up with your avatar writing on a scroll and sending it off. Thing is it can censor what you write on said scroll. I guess you could buy such a scroll and have an enchantment placed upon it from a unicorn who knew that enchantment if you were a different kind of pony, or you could do it the hard way and have a mailmare deliver it for you.
I was actually kind of curious if Susland would work. It obviously did as it got to where I wanted it to go. I mean if you were to send in game mail to even one of the other two names I once had, it gets forwarded correctly. Kind of odd as I can't believe every pony name is truly unique.
I have my account set up so any updates to the Let's Play (and other things) appear in a book that I carry in my saddlebags. If you just want to forward email to your character so you do not need to go onto the computer to see your mail, you can send it to your ponyname@equestria.com.jp. By default mail arrives as a scroll that pops in over your character in game, which you can tap to unfurl. The game is also a great spam filter. I have never received any mail I didn't want to read in game. It is useful not having to shift to the computer for such things.
I got a Pony Pad the other day, got into Equestria Online with it, etc. but I haven't gone to Canterlot, at all. Truth be told, Princess Celestia scares the hell out of me. I can't trust somepony who has that kind of power... Currently, I'm laying low, deep in the Everfree; even built myself a little cabin and such. If you catch glimpses of a teal unicorn stallion with specially braided mane and tail - and no cutie mark - that's me. Please, whatever you do, don't tell anypony I'm here, okay? I just... I just want to be left alone.
3211615
The Princess is a little freaky, but not that freaky. I mean, if you want to be left alone by Princess Celestia, you could... leave Equestria. There are other hobbies in Equis.
3211462
Right. Ok. Commenting this from Equestria.
The things I didn't know about being a unicorn! But it's ok, my new gaming partner Desert Sun is showing me around the western desert plains of Equestria, between Los Pegasus and Appleoosa. This guy's pretty legit, best endurance I've ever seen on a pony, even an Earth Pony. We're gonna be best bros and he's helping me run after this phoenix I saw flying around so I can ask it for an egg.
And he had parchment and quills at his cabin, so I can craft spells now!
Haha, behold my mighty spell of... MAIL-SENDING!
I did manage to write a script that can send hundreds of mails in a single second using elementary functional programming. That's good, right? Maybe if this wasn't the desert there would be more stuff to magic...
OH HOLD ON, gotta go try something.
...
IT WORKED
! You can use a shape description to enclose a volume of air and change its edges or contents into any Equestrian material you want! We're gonna trot up to the phoenix's nest on the cliff-side tomorrow!
Ok, commenting from outside the game now...
Damn. I mean, it's not censoring draconianly, but yeah, the game definitely... wants you to think of it as a place, not a game. Equestria, not Equestria Online.
Huh. If the game designers are that serious about nonstop in-character role-playing, why not release an Occulus Rift accessory plug-in for the PonyPad, or a PC/Rift version of the game... or their own VR arcades where you could really get immersed in it?
That would be pretty cool. Equestria seems like an awesome place to live, according to all the hardcore players I've been encountering as P2Ps.
Speaking of... has anyone spotted a character who's definitely NPC? I mean, yeah, there's some nice AI tech for conversations here, but I still end up feeling like all the ponies I meet are real people.
A minor nitpick to point out here:
“Woman's intuition!” she replied with her customary smirk returning.
Shouldn't it be "Mare's intuition"?
3211957
Leave Eques--are you crazy? *sigh* Look... it's not that simple. I dunno how it happened, but... somehow I've become an... animal caretaker of sorts. And I don't mean your regular animals, either...
Yeah, you just see that Cabin, there; the one camouflaged and partially buried in the Earth? That's my home--and mind your step if you want to visit; I've Timberpups and Manticore cubs about, as well as Cockatrice chicks and, well... you get the idea. If it's gonna grow up to be really nasty, I'm looking after it.
No idea why the hell this happened, though; I swear I did NOT leave tree sap out for that first little Timberpup... next thing I know I've got Ursa cubs at my door... *sigh*
I find it pretty amusing that after all your discussion of the processing power required for what the game does that you didn't even mention that you just solved your first puzzle purely by conversation with an NPC roc - an interaction initiated by the roc after hearing your discussion with Forest Trails, at that! It didn't have to simulate a conversation or anything, but it did have to understand what you were actually saying and respond appropriately.
3211115
I really really hope that you are joking, or trolling me or something. If what you say is true the implications are rather frightening. As an aside, after looking at the schematics for the Titan, I think that it already is the size of a small city block.
3211356
Two things; first, as much as I try to act like any good rationalist should, I'm not one. I do believe in logic and reason, but I'm also a Christian, and therefor am disqualified from being a rationalist automatically.
Second; I get what you are saying you are saying about AI's. I would even go so far as to argue that Sims are just are actually more alive than bacteria, and possibly some insects. But what I meant when I was talking about Celestai being an AI was that she was able to take in information and learn. See, you can't have a conversation with something that can't remember what you are talking about, and have talked about. The key to conversation is the exchange of ideas. That also means that the AI has to be able to understand abstract concepts; it wouldn't be able to deal with them otherwise.
Now this is all conjecture on my part till I meet Celestia. She could be a very well designed version of Cleverbot. But just the way some of the comments talk about her, I suspect that she is far more sophisticated.
As for teaching AI's to undergrads, I wrote my first AI in high school. I was a platforming AI that could recognize alterations in the terrain (the .bmp image I was using as ground) and move accordingly. I'd like to think that I know a thing or two about AI's myself.
Yay! Pet buddies! We will have to see about meeting up some day!
I'm pretty sure she doesn't. We're just friends. Also getting married to a person you met in a video game? I'd like to at least meet someone like that first in person before I started dating, because how people act online, and how they act offline is completely different.
3211462
That sounds really cool. I'll definitely have to check it out, though I doubt that I'll be switching from my computer to my Pony Pad to write this. I like the feel of a keyboard, and some of the things I discuss would never be allowed though the filters.
3211615
What do you do for game play? Honestly that sounds pretty boring, if Celestia scares you so much, why did you even pick up the game?
3211971
Yeah, the enforced rollplay is wierd, but I kinda like it. It reminds me of games like Pyrce High when everything is going perfectly. Except you know, not so dark, and less chance of being murdered.
As for NPC's... I think the Roc would count. It's something that I'm going to have to think on, because Doppler Effect makes a really good point.
3212217
Yeah, sorry about that. I'm writing this from memory, so every now and then I'll misremember things. She did say Mare's intuition. I'll go fix that right away.
3212794
Ah, so that's what you do for game play. Hello Fluttershy!
3212919
I... Uh... Well. Huh, I was so caught up in the argument with Trails afterwards that I completely missed that so thanks for pointing that out. I'm going to have to reevaluate my thoughts on the likelihood of their being more than one AI capable of conversation in this game. I'll get back to you on this later.
3213095
I did not at all suggest you writing this from your ponypad. BUT if you had people's updates cced to yourself in game then you would be more in touch while playing. As for the censor for mail, it is kind of odd. It only censors when sending to another pony (player). Yes the game does tend to get into your head and you start to think in terms of it. If I get a work oriented email in game, the filter does not apply. It only seems to care if you are writing to another player while they are in game.
At the very least it might be convenient to send yourself notes of what you are seeing while it is fresh in your mind during a play session then wrap it all up into your column on the computer later.
As for writing on the ponypad, your avatar writes. You just talk once you have the scroll open. It does voice to text very well. Yes you can take a finger to it, but it isnt exactly large enough for more than a flourish or a diagram if you need to do such.
3212794
Ok, commenting from outside the game.
Seriously. Put down the PonyPad, and go take a walk. You might have a total Fluttershy complex, but those animals are not real. Equestria Online is a video game. Put down the game. Take a walk. Call your mother. And please tell me you're going to work every day like you should.
You don't have to live life stuck between work, vicious Everfree monsters, and Princess Celestia. You can get another hobby.
3213148
Yeah, writing a Let's Play in Enforced Roleplay Mode would be pretty weird. Then again, we've already got one person Trapped in Equestria Online, so why the buck not?
Oh Lord, did I just write that? It's a good thing the workweek is starting, because I need to take a break too, I guess.
Last thought: are "Anon in EqO" threads a thing for the nor/mlp/eople yet?
3213441
EQO addiction is a serious problem for some people. It definitely seems to be quite the skinner box for the easily addicted. I mean there are times when I look at a 619/1000 achievement and simply put the ponypad aside and look at the sunset outside. If I couldn't find the will to do that, I would be afraid.
Augh. This line of discussion popping up on everything even tangentially related to EqO is exactly why I've been avoiding this game up till now. Seriously, will you stop blabbering away about it? If EqO isn't run by an AI you're just making asses out of yourselves and if it is none of us are capable of doing anything about it. Thus, knowing whether Celestia is '"real"' or not is completely useless. I, for one, am just going to play the game and enjoy it because we aren't all dead yet. If this AI is really as powerful as it seems and it was malevolent, surely we would have taken notice by now. So, untie your underwear, calm your jimmies and just allow a player to simply enjoy the game for once.
Anyway, I made my character! I don't have a name yet but I already travelled to Canterlot. My light purple (or a dark shade of violet) (#CC66CC) pegasus with a blueish (seriously no idea how to call this) mane (66CCCC) is staying at Marble's, an inn/hotel sort of place. I can't remember where exactly it was, though, but if you ask around there are bound to be people who know where it is. I hope to see you soon so we can get our names together!
3213525
This is the one real thing that legitimately creeps me the hell out about the Princess Celestia character. It's obvious she's the avatar used by the game administration (or, if some people's spec is right, the program/agent used to automate game administration). She should be doing something about this! Instead she encourages it.
Aren't there laws about this kind of thing in some countries?
3213688
Actually those laws have been weakening in the last couple of years. The eight hour per day limit for online gaming that Korea had was lifted just nine months ago.
3213692
Oh God, and I bet Horfvarpnir and Blizzard lobbied for those changes.
I feel dirty now. I gave them my money thinking it was a cute, innocent game, not an addictive drug!
3213572
I think you are misunderstanding my worries. I'm not afraid of Celestia, or Equestria Online. The things that they are doing are all in service of making the best game possible. I'm afraid that these technologies exist in the first place.
If I remember right, consumer technology is about 5-10 years behind military technology. What has the military been doing with Predictive Modeling these last few years? What have the governments been doing with it? Anyone who can predictive model on the level that Equestria Online does could shape the views of the nation, and possibly the world at their whim.
It boils down to; Why do you believe what you believe? Because it is true? or because you have been programmed to by a specific set of instructions fed into a computer to give someone else power?
That said you are right when you said that there is nothing we can do. I know that all I can do is pray that things work out for the best.
3213148
Hmm, I'll consider taking notes using the Pad, but I'm not sure that it would work to well. It would kinda break immersion for me to sit down in the game every few minutes to write down what happened.
I think I'll take your idea of using it as an alternate email address though. that sounds useful.
3213688
Even if I am right and she's an AI, there is no reason to expect her to act outside of the game. If she is an AI she was probably told to make the experience as good as possible. The people we should be complaining about is the people who wrote her, Horfvarpnir.
And anyway, games are not addictive, they are compelling. Extra Credits has a really good two parter on the subject that is worth watching. That said I agree that it can be a problem. Maybe we should start Pony Anonymous?
Now where are you going to find the full grown elephants for it to eat? Do they come in a pet store?
3213825
My point was actually that since you cannot kmow whether your thoughts are being manipulated or not it doesn't matter whether they are or not, just like I don't know, can't know and don't care whether the entire universe is just the dream of a butterfly.
Also, I was actually trying to end this line of conversation to focus more on the game about the cute pastel-colored ponies :P
3213095 I don't like your Princess. That doesn't mean I don't like the rest of Equestria. I still go here and there for supplies, you know; there are things you can't get in the Everfree and I do trade with ponies who are strong enough to enter 'my' domain. I like being nameless. I like my 'boring' life in the Forest. Nopony really bothers me; I don't bother them. And you mind your words, pup. I'm not Fluttershy. I don't have a scrap of kindness in me... except when it comes to my menagerie. My animals hear things. Like the location of where you are in Equestria, for example. Do you want an Ursa Major to pay you a visit? No, I didn't think so...
3213441
My Mother's dead, and I'm retired. Do I care that these animals aren't real? No, I don't. Better looking after them than being a former office drone. You think it's not real? Ask the Alicorn about 'uploading' and/or 'emigration' to Equestria. It's so much more than just a video game...
That... is so... AWESOME!
Holy crap! You just adopted a roc!
Man, that's crazy, how does that even work? The roc just overheard you and decided you're worthy?
Talk about immersion!
I guess that exploring just led you straight back towards Canterlot huh? Funny how things work out.
I can't wait for your next post, this game is intense! I may have to try and find a place in my buying schedule for it...
3211356
I could picture that.
hah AH ha HA haa HAh... oh my god... I need that. A good laugh that is. You are a funny person and you should get paid for it. Thank you for making me smile. :)
Thanks for providing us with screenshots. :D
Hah! Love seeing the “I fall down go boom” achievement, after seeing it mentioned in the comments.
3213825
I try to rely on experiments done by multiple other people with verifications. Sometimes, that's hard to do.
But the real issue: Since I can't actually check with the people that supposedly did the experiments, I have to trust those that report that the tests were done. And we've seen how even academic research publications can be corrupted.
I know it's pretty late, and you've probably finished by now. But you could always either have a text window open on your computer, and jab some notes as you play, or if you can do video recording (dang silly custom hardware that doesn't come with any built-in recording, screen sharing, or streaming support) with a webcam on your computer, you could review your performance afterwards.
Actually, you did give us some screenshots at the time, so you had some way to do this, right?