A farm of any kind requires a good deal of work to keep running smoothly. That work usually requires a routine that starts with rising with the sun.
This morning, however, the sun was late in rising. Regardless, Big Macintosh was awake at the same time as usual. The first thing he noticed upon waking was the lack of early morning sun seeping in through the window. His bed creaked a little as he rolled over to check his clock. Nope, six o' clock. Huh...Ah wonder if the Princesses are feelin' under the weather...
Whatever the issue was, the big earth pony didn't dwell on it long. He rolled out of bed and cantered downstairs to get started with his routine. If memory served, Applejack had organized for the weather team to provide a rainstorm for the fields today, which meant that Big Macintosh had to get his plowing and planting done early. A passing glance at the refrigerator-mounted calendar proved his memory to still be in good working order. Ah better git goin' then.
Just outside the kitchen door, parked up against the side of the house, was the cart that the stallion had left with the day before, complete with five large burlap sacks filled to bursting with carrots.
One of the ten pound sacks was hardly a challenge for the well-muscled earth pony. He took one of these in his mouth and returned to the kitchen counter. The simple rope tie came away easily, revealing the bright orange produce within. Two of the biggest ones ones went into Big Macintosh's mouth, but not for himself. It was little surprise that the vegetables smelled extremely good; Carrot Top's carrots were the best in Ponyville.
The pair of carrots were quickly carried back upstairs into the stallion's room, where his guest was still sleeping. He placed the produce beside the white rabbit. He paused to stare at the sleeping animal before leaving, and his mind turned to the creature's owner. That kind, gentle pony...
Big Macintosh wasn't quite sure when exactly he had begun harboring feelings for the pretty young mare. He only knew it was shortly after the whole episode with Cheerilee, brought on by the Cutie Mark Crusaders' love potion. He still didn't know what it was about the pegasus that he liked.
She was always polite, no matter who she was talking with. She was also one of the prettiest mares he had ever seen, and yet, when she had been recognized throughout Ponyville because of it, she had turned it down. She put her friends first, even at personal expense, and the big earth pony respected that. That little rabbit meant the world to her. When Fluttershy had seen that destroyed hutch, she had nearly fainted.
The earth pony's red chest rose and fell as he let out a great sigh. AJ, Flutt'rshy... Wherever the two of ya are... Keep each other safe...
-------------------------
Fluttershy had spent so much time in the Everfree Forest lately that it was beginning to lose a (very) little bit of its creepiness. Then again, that might have been because of her increased company.
Conversation was at a minimum as the party trekked its way through the forest. Zecora had volunteered to lead the group, while Headwind and Celestia brought up the rear with the captive. Given the situation, Fluttershy and Applejack were positioned between them.
The apple-bucking farmer pony kept sneaking the odd glance at her friend from under her hat. Why am Ah so nervous about this? Fluttershy's mah friend an' Big Mac's mah brother. Jus' ask her, AJ... In an attempt to to break the constant crunching of hooves on pine needles, Applejack cleared her throat. "Ah'm certainly glad to see yer safe an' sound, Fluttershy."
"I know. I was worried that you had fallen into that great big ravine."
"Yeah, that was a real close one." she laughed half-heartedly. "Hey, sugarcube, can Ah ask ya somethin'?"
"What?"
"Fergive me if Ah'm steppin' on yer hooves, darlin', but might Ah ask what happened with Big Mac what got ya to come along on this trip?"
"O-oh...that..." Since she had first woken up in the forest, Fluttershy's mind had been going in one of two directions; worry for her friends, or what had happened before she had left. Guess where it was now? "I...thought I already told y-you..."
Applejack might have been a farm pony, but she wasn't born yesterday. "Ya told me what he said, sugarcube. Not what he did. Ah've never seen anypony look redder'n you are right now."
Hiding behind her mane would do little good, yet instinct made the pegasus do it anyway. After your typical awkward silence, Fluttershy finally murmured, "Just promise me that you'll let me tell the others, okay?"
The orange pony grinned. "Regular promise or Pinkie Pie promise?"
"Regular will do." She giggled slightly before falling silent again. The pegasi's wings ruffled nervously, and she didn't know why. This wasn't really a life-or-death secret, and it seemed like Applejack already knew. At length she motioned for her earth pony friend to come closer. Even with mere inches from ear to mouth, Fluttershy was still reluctant to speak. "He k-kissed me..." The winged mare quickly withdrew, looking and feeling guilty.
Her guilt was waved away with a dismissive hoof. "Y'all shouldn't feel guilty, Fluttershy. Ya can't help who ya fall fer. Er...wait..." Now Applejack looked a tiny bit guilty. "Ah kinda figured that Big Macintosh had a thing fer ya, but Ah don't wanna go puttin' words in yer mouth, darlin'. Do you like him?"
"Well, of course I do. He seems like such a nice pony, and-"
"Not what Ah meant..." she interrupted in a sing-song voice. "Ah meant like Spike likes Rarity."
"O-oh..." That was different. That was something that Fluttershy had to think about. Did she like Big Macintosh? This was unfamiliar territory for the pegasus; she had always been so busy caring for all her animals that she had never really given any thought to a romantic relationship, much less one with the brother of one of her best friends. As she thought about it, however, it started to make more and more sense. Fluttershy didn't know many stallions and he seemed very nice. One thought led to another, and soon the mare was again thinking of her dream, and in turn the kiss that had started it. "M-maybe a little bit..."
"Ah knew it." The orange pony lightly butted her friend in the shoulder. "Ah won't tell a soul, Fluttershy. Ya have mah word."
"Thank you, Applejack." Fluttershy nodded in gratitude and let out a long sigh. That word of reassurance lifted a huge weight from her shoulders. In fact, even the forest around her seemed to become lighter and less oppressive. Just when she was about to ask Applejack if she noticed it too, Zecora spoke up.
"At long last, we have arrived. Behold, my friends, the royal city on high."
No sooner had Zecora spoken these words than Fluttershy stepped out of the forest. Perched high on the mountainside before them were the tall, spired buildings of the city of Canterlot, their marbled sides gleaming in the morning sun.
For much of the journey back, Princess Celestia had been silent, anxious about what would await her upon arriving. However, as she stepped into the lush field that was the last thing separating her from Canterlot, she turned to her General and laughed. "Mission accomplished, Headwind. You brought Applejack and Fluttershy to Canterlot."
"I did only as you ordered, your Majesty." he replied with a swift salute.
"Well said, General. Let's hurry up and take them the rest of the way. I'll feel much better once we're within the city limits."
After the seemingly endless hours of wading through the countless trees of the Everfree Forest, this last leg of the journey was a much welcomed respite. Now that the city was within sight, the party was blessed with renewed vigor and was quickly at the palace gates.
A warning cry of "Halt! Who goes there?" rang from the battlements as the company approached the massive main gate of the Canterlot palace. "State your business! The palace is currently on lockdown!"
"At ease, Jet Stream!" Headwind called back to the unseen voice. "Her Majesty Celestia has returned with two of the Elements in tow!"
-------------------------
It had taken quite a bit of work between them, but after a few hours (and a couple maple scones apiece), Rarity and Pinkie had finally succeeded in convincing their distraught pegasus friend to get some sleep. Being the close friends of the Princess' private student means that your accommodations within the palace are rivaled only by the royal chambers. As such, the beds in these rooms are equally as lavish; big enough for two or three ponies, and then some.
Seeing as Pinkie was still worried about nightmares, Rainbow Dash had offered to let the pink pony take one side of the enormous bed, while she took the other. The Element of Laughter happily obliged. About three hours later, the pegasus came to regret that offer.
Late or not, the sun was still coming up, and the east-facing room ensured that the ponies inside would soon know.
The instant the sunlight fell upon the sleeping Pinkie Pie, the room erupted into chaos. Pinkamena sat bolt upright, uttering a guilty squeal of, "No, Rainbow Dash, I didn't eat your scones!" Blankets swiftly wrapped themselves around her head as a startled and sleepy Rainbow Dash took to the air in panic... Right into the bed's canopy, so its elastic properties could slingshot her straight back into the mattress and bounce her off onto the floor.
Meanwhile, Pinkie, who had been madly struggling to extricate herself from the suffocating blankets, finally succeeded in doing so, just in time for the empty scone tray, sent skyward by Rainbow's impact with the bed, to slap her square in the face. "Owwww..." Pinkie sat back up, rubbing her smarting nose.
A set of angry magenta eyes appeared over the edge of the bed a moment later. "Geez, Pinkie, you nearly scared my feathers clean off! What gives!?"
"Sorry, Dashie..." The Element of Laughter grinned sheepishly. "I dreamt that I had accidentally eaten your scones."
The pegasi's expression was as deadpan as her tone. "You did eat them..." She held up an empty tray, bearing a slight indentation from its meeting with Pinkie's snout.
"Oh yeah... Oopsie..." A pink coat does an excellent job of hiding blushing and the balloon-marked pony was grateful for it. "I'll go get more then..."
"Go for it..." Rainbow Dash muttered, climbing back into the bed. "Just be quiet when you come back in."
"Okie dokie!" In her traditional method of locomotion, Pinkie bounced over to the door and opened it.
"Good morning, Miss Pie. You seem well-rested. May I help you?"
One could tell from the pink mare's split-second break in expression that she wasn't expecting to see a guard upon opening the door. Nope, I'm okay. I was just going to the kitchen for some breakfast."
"Very well. Allow me to escort you to the kitchen then."
"No, that's fine; I know where it is. I'll be right back." When Pinkie went to step around the stallion, he mirrored her ste. A step in the opposite tirection produced the same result. For an instant, she thought about making a silly face and seeing what he did.
"I respect your decision, Miss Pie, but it would go against my superior's orders to let you roam the palace unsupervised."
"'Kay. That works too. Let's go then." Since she had woken up, the Element of Laughter had been having periodic twinges in her right shoulder, very obviously part of a self-proclaimed "combo." She just couldn't remember which one it was.
As the two ponies got closer to the kitchen, sweet smells of various baked goods began tickling the inside of Pinkie's nostrils. Finally, "Here we are, Miss Pie." The guard pushed open one of the double doors before them.
When you're a kitchen providing food to the whole of Canterlot Palace, you rarely get a break. Just beyond the swinging doors, ponies were bustling about, some carrying trays, some not. Pinkie's eyes lit up at the sight of the freshly baked scones and brightly frosted cupcakes. Yes, they looked delicious, but their smell... Oh, their aroma; they smelled absolutely divine. She inhaled deeply, drinking in the warm scent. Life was good, if just for this moment.
One of the kitchen staff, a pony wearing the traditional chef's hat, approached the curly-maned mare. "I presume you're enjoying the aroma, miss?"
"You're soooo lucky..." she sighed blissfully. "You get to smell this all the time!"
The toque-wearing stallion chuckled. "I suppose I do. What brings you to my kitchen this fine morning, Miss..."
"Pinkie." she added quickly.
"Oh? You must be a friend of the princesses. I trust you enjoyed the scones we prepared for you last night?"
"Oh yes, very yummy. That's why I came down; to see if I could get more of them."
"Of course. A kitchen without scones is hardly a kitchen. Excuse me for a moment." He disappeared into the hustle and bustle of the kitchen, to return shortly thereafter, bearing another tray of six freshly baked, recently iced scones. "Here we are, half a dozen maple scones, topped with our finest whipped rosehip icing."
Pinkie didn't respond; she was too busy staring at the scones. "Ooooh... May I try one?"
"I'd be insulted if you-" Before the end of his sentence, one of the scones, icing and all, had disappeared from the tray.
The sight and smell of the scones did absolutely no justice to how they tasted. They tasted so good that the mare was actually at a loss for words. It was like...like a party in her mouth. It wasn't long before an uncomfortable pinch pulled her away from the festivities and elicited an "Ow..."
"Miss Pie, are you all right?" the guard asked.
"Yep, I'm-hic!-fine!" she answered, uttering a single hiccup that lifted her from the ground.
"What about your ears then?"
"Wha' 'bout them?" As her question worked its way around her mouthful of scone, Pinkie noticed her erratically flapping ears. Pinchy shoulder, hiccups, ear flop... "Thash it!" she proclaimed.
There was no time to ask exactly what "it" was. In less time than it took to bat an eye, the pink equine was gone, leaving a pony-shaped cloud in her wake.
Sometimes guard duty gets very boring and monotonous, and then sometimes, you're assigned to watch over the Elements of Harmony. All the guard outside Rarity's room saw was a pink blur that blew past him. "Rariry, quick! Wa' up!" Pinkie shouted.
The hastily spouted warning call was unnecessary; sleep had not come to the unicorn tonight. "Pinkie Pie, dear, it is hardly considered proper to speak with one's mouth full."
"No time! Frien's a' th' door! Hurry!"
Rarity traded a confused look with the dragonling next to her. "Did you make out any of that?"
Spike shrugged. "Sounded like 'Friends at the door.' to me."
Next door, the same message was being delivered. Rainbow Dash, however, understood straight away, and was out the door like multicolored bolt of greased lightning, Pinkie Pie spinning like a top in the doorway behind her.
-------------------------
"Open the gate, Jet Stream!" Celestia ordered. "I am renouncing the lockdown protocols!"
"You heard Her Majesty! Open the gates!" Jet Stream did an about-face and disappeared from the window. Chains began clinking as wheels steadily lowered the massive drawbridge into place. The lieutenant met the alicorn inside with the customary salute. "Welcome back, your Majesty."
"It feels good to be home again..." she breathed. "Greetings, Jet Stream. I trust things have gone smoothly since your letter?"
"That is correct."
"Very good. I've a new assignment for you. See to it that Miss Zecora here is given the finest acommodations during her stay with us. Headwind, I want you to show our other guest to her accommodations. Afterwards, take the sinkstone to our research wing and meet me in the infirmary. It's time we got that wing of yours fixed up."
The two replies sounded as one. "At once."
Fluttershy had visited the palace on several occasions prior, but one thing about it always amazed her. Everything seemed to be made from marble; hallways, stairs, walls, all of it. It also carried sound extremely well. "Applejack, do you hear that?"
Curious, the hat-wearing pony stopped and cocked an ear. She could hear hooves clicking rapidly upon marble...and...wingbeats? Before she could ponder it too much, the source of the noise came into view. "Whoa nelly... Heads up, sugarcube!"
Thud!
Rarity came around the corner just in time to catch the four pony pile-up caused by Pinkie and Rainbow Dash. She laughed, something she had been doing far too little of lately. "You were right, Spike. There were friends at the door." Dashing about like a madpony does not readily fit with palace etiquette, but Rarity could hardly contain herself. Before she was halfway to the other ponies, she had broken into a full-on gallop. "Heavens, you two! Let the poor dears stand up!"
Tails were tangled and heads were spinning from the impact, so it took a moment to sort things out. Applejack was the first back on her hooves. "Ah'm real glad to see all of ya again." she sighed, after a round of hugs (and the expected pat on the back from Rainbow Dash).
The Element of Generosity would't be caught dead admitting it, but she had been missing the compony's unmistakable accent. "It certainly is. I haven't gotten a minute of sleep. I've been worried sick."
"Hold on a minute..." Spike interrupted the reunion. "Where's Twilight?"
"Yeah, Applejack, where is she? Did she come in with you?" Rainbow Dash glanced past the pair of ponies, expecting to see the lavender unicorn come trotting across the drawbridge.
Kindness and Honesty exchanged guilty looks. "We...uh...don't k-know exactly..." Fluttershy admitted quietly.
Applejack swallowed visibly before explaining. "She was hog-tied an' hauled off before Fluttershy an' the Princess showed up..."
"By whom?" Rarity inquired.
"A group of three pegasi..."
The Element of Loyalty narrowed her magenta eyes to threatening slits. "Did one of them have a pink mane?"
"I think so... Why?"
"That was the pony who kept me from saving Twilight... If I ever see her again, I'm going to take her feathers off one by one..."
"Easy now, Rainbow Dash..." the unicorn mare cautioned. "It's far too easy to become obsessed with holding a grudge. First things first; all of us, Twilight included, are alive and safe, and second, we could all use some sleep."
"Ah'm with Rarity..." Applejack said around a wide yawn. "Ah'm runnin' on empty..."
This statement was unanimously accepted by everypony else, and the small group started back to their rooms. Rarity followed behind, lost in thought. Sure, they had been reunited with their friends, but what had been the cost? What else was to come?
-------------------------
Celestia's mind was no more at ease than Rarity's as she made her way to the infirmary. Ever since Luna had returned from her...absence, the elder alicorn had always kept her sister in the corner of her eye. Not out of fear or suspicion, but out of worry and protection. Though Celestia appeared unshakeable and resolute most of the time, news of this event had shaken her to the core. She took a deep breath to calm her nerves and knocked on the infirmary door.
A short period of silence later and the door swung inward. "Ah! Your Majesty. I trust you are here concerning your sister?"
The princess nodded. "Correct."
"Very well. Right this way." The nurse turned and allowed Celestia to enter. "Your sister is doing just fine..." she commented absentmindedly, glancing at a clipboard floating alongside her. "Her only injury was a minor cut on her cheek; so minor, in fact, that it won't even require a bandage. A light cleansing with water will be plenty."
"Injuries aren't what I'm worried about..."
"Here we are: Room 1022. Let me know if you need anything, your Majesty."
"Thank you. I will." As the door clicked shut behind her, Celestia could finally drop her facade. Tears came to her eyes and she began quietly weeping. How had things fallen so far out of hoof? First Twilight, and now Luna, the latter of whom lay, still unconscious, in the bed before her.
Her forehead looked damp, as if she had been sweating, and the ruffled sheets belied occasional fits of tossing and turning. With the aid of her magic, Celestia removed one of her golden boots and set it aside. Then, with the back of her now-bare hoof, she started gently stroking her sister's forehead, softly humming a sweet tune. A moment or two of this, and the night alicorn began to stir. "It's all right, Lulu..." she cooed. "It's just me..."
Remember what was mentioned about standing next to an enraged alicorn? It's not a good idea to sit next to a frightened one, either. Luna came to with a start and her eyes flew open. The first thing that greeted her senses were Celestia's face and the hoof upon her forehead. With her nightmare still very fresh in her mind, she panicked. "No! 'Tia, wait! Don't hurt me anymore!" she cried, forcibly shoving the other pony away.
Celestia flinched like she had just been kicked in the face. "Luna... I would never do that..."
When the shove had failed to put any real distance between the two of them, Luna had quickly stumbled from the bed, wide-eyed with fright. "No! Stay away!"
Confused, the sun alicorn stepped around the bed to follow her terrified sister. She was repelled by a concentrated burst of raw magic. Much of the impact was dissipated by her enchanted armor, but an alicorn on the defensive is not to be trifled with, and the concussive force of the blast blew her off her hooves.
Now that she had a chance to calm down and think rationally, Luna finally realized what had happened. "Oh no! 'Tia! I'm sorry! I'm sorry! Are you okay?" she asked concernedly, standing over the other alicorn.
"Don't worry, Luna. I'll-oof!-be fine. I'm here to look in on you. Are you all right?"
"I-I'm fine. But what about Fluttershy and Applejack? Did you find them?"
"They're safe and sound here in the palace."
"And Twilight?" Luna recieved all the answer she needed by looking into her sister's eyes. "Oh...I'm...sorry, 'Tia..."
"Regardless of whether or not I found her, I know she alive, and right now I'll take that. I recieved a letter from Jet Stream, and that's why I came back. My concern now is that you're okay."
"I told you, 'Tia, I'm fine." Luna repeated.
Celestia had finally recovered from the magical attack and was back on her hooves. "Jet Stream said he found you unconscious in your room, with a cut upon your cheek. What happened?"
Events were still quite fuzzy for the younger princess, but she could easily remember Nightmare Moon's smirking face. Just the recollection of the image in the mirror sent chills down Luna's spine. The evil mare's words echoed forth from the dark recesses of her mind. I see that Celestia has been feeding you her typical lies. You and I will always be one and the same. Luna hesitated as these words crossed her mind. "Tell me something, 'Tia. Nightmare Moon and I... Are we still connected?"
"Wh-where did that come from?" The innocent question had quite obviously caught Celestia off guard.
"'Tia, please. Just tell me the truth. Please."
Nightmare Moon... The sun-marked pony had not heard that name in well over a year. The sudden mention of it, especially coming from her sister, was extremely unsettling. "What happened while I was gone, Luna? What happened to you?"
"Answer me, Celestia! I want to know!" Luna's patience was quickly burning out, and that meant that one thing would be following.
"Listen to me, Luna!" Celestia ordered. "Tell me what happened! Now!"
By now, the question dodging had grown very old, and Luna's restraint had deserted her. "We demand that thou tell us the truth at once!" Her relapse into the Royal Canterlot Speaking Voice was not a very subtle solution, but it worked nonetheless.
Celestia let out a long sigh. "I...haven't been completely honest with you, Luna, and I am deeply sorry..." She drew a sharp breath and paused, looking away. Regret would not allow the alicorn to look back at her sister. "I...don't know how much you remember from that time so many years ago, but I remember it like it was yesterday. Now, before I go on, am I right in saying that you used to be...jealous of my day?"
Luna was becoming scared once again, but for different reasons. This alicorn before her...she looked like Celestia, she sounded like Celestia, yet at the same time, she obviously was not. The Celestia that Luna knew was strong and pround. This alicorn seemed so...so broken...so regretful. This wasn't Celestia. "A-at the time I was..." she admitted slowly.
"I thought so... It was about a month or so after we had sealed Discord away; something happened... Something that showed me what evil really was. I awoke one morning and you seemed...different. Maybe you hadn't slept well; I didn't know. You just weren't yourself. I brushed it under the rug and thought nothing of it. That was my first mistake, and I am so, so sorry, Luna. As the days passed, I watched you fall farther and farther away from everypony. Then, one night... I came to you so we could trade off. I asked you to lower the moon; you refused and...struck me..."
Luna recoiled in shock. "I-I don't remember doing that..."
"That's just it; it wasn't you. You had already been taken from me. Nightmare Moon had already been born."
The younger princess was unnerved at hearing this, but curiosity forced her to ask. "So, i-is Nightmare Moon still a part of me?"
"When wielded at full power as they were intended, the Elements of Harmony will remove any evil influences from their target. But, they cannot completely banish said evil. As long as good exists, evil will exist to oppose it; you cannot have one without the other." Celestia's tone was no longer wavering. It was dead serious. "When your magic gave Nightmare Moon her form, she knew she had full control. She wants that back... But, at the same time, she knows she cannot have it, so long as you refuse it to her. She is inside, waiting for her chance to strike... Long story short: The Nightmare Moon that Equestria knows exists because of you, Luna. For all intents and purposes, you are Nightmare Moon."
DUN DUN DUUUUUN
I think Celestia could have worded that better. It made for a great cliffhanger, but it's SOOOOO not the right thing to say to calm Luna down.
HARK!! WE DEMAND THAT THOU UPDATEST MORE FREQUENTLY THAN ONCE
EVERY LUNAR CYCLE!! THOU SHALT BEGIN WITH THINE SCRIBING OF THE NEXT CHAPTER AT ONCE!!!
304060
Because of their master/mistress. I'll admit, my expectations had been based on the assumption the enemies were servants of Discord, and one can't be His servant without having at least a few of the elements of Discord- deceit, betrayal, greed, cruelty, despair and enmity. Being servants of the Nightmare, I'll tone it down to merely the threatening of life and perhaps some beating now and then. To the enemy, who value nothing besides the return of eternal night, such petty things as "morality" and "decency" are nothing. They have already been more than willing to kidnap, imprison, threaten and to a certain extent torture. I see no reason, aside from the author's choice which I respect, for the enemy to refrain from taking advantage of the situation as they see fit.
Tell me, what is the goodness and nobility of everlasting night and the death of the sun? Where is the kindness in starving and genociding ponykind as the world slowly freezes on one side and burns on another, the generosity of taking away the sunshine and rainbows of countless fillies and colts, the joy of crushing the hopes and dreams of the citizens of Equestrias, the loyalty in betraying a ruler who had benevolently and peacefully ruled over a near-utopian nation for thousands of years, the honesty in using a mare's trust in her friends to nearly kidnap and imprison her, and the friendship in casting away all ties to others in the hopes of serving a mistress who could care less about ponies?
304410
Extreme grimdark in MLP fiction is as credible as wars being fought with pies in a historical drama. If all you were suggesting was hyper realisim and gritty brutality I might be more sympathetic, but I have difficulty respecting your views and opinions because of how over the top unrealistic they are. You seem to want the dial turned up to 11 when It only goes to 10. There is a reason that gluefics and extreme content fics, dispite popularity, lack credibility.
All of your assumptions of the personalities, motivations, goals, and outcomes of the enemy are incredibly pessimistic and skewed toward the most grimdark aspect available. They are only viable if you stretch the bounds of logic even beyond hyper-reality. Discord ruled Equestria for likely centuries. But the ponies were unharmed dispite his "torment". In fact it seems like the Idea of harming another physically is distastefull to him with his "8 don't turn ponies into stone" line. Not that emotional damage isn't damage. Also I disagree on your assessment of the "elements of Discord" as those were mere situational based on the characters' personalities. His ONLY element is CHAOS.
As for Nightmare, if she's a part of Luna's personality then she would have the same motivations which while misguided are not destructive inherantly. There have been shown to be severalternatives to life within an "eternal night" (which came off more as a threat than an actual intention). If on the other hand it is the Nightmare as a separate entity then it's motivations would be power.
Either way all 3 possibilities keep the same theme of wanting the citizenry as a captive audience, not a dead one.
As for the expected cruelty of the villains in this storythey are not really all that villainous, they are pretty much just a rating above the shows antagonists in maturity. There is nothing wrong with a more gritty or realistic portrayal of Equestria, but within reason and the bounds of logic.
303816
The right thing to say? Probably not. Did Luna ask for the truth? Yeppers. Calming or not, that's what she got.
[Royal Canterlot Voice]
HEARKEN TO US, THOU UNGRATEFUL WHELP! WE FEEL THAT IT WOULD PLEASE THEE TO KNOW THAT THE SCRIBING OF THE NEXT INSTALLMENT OF OUR FICTIONAL WORK HAS INDEED BEGUN! WE PRAY THAT THOU KEEPS THINE PATIENCE ABOUT THEE, VILLAGER!
[/Royal Canterlot Voice]
*snrrrk* I really should speak in the Royal Canterlot Voice more often. It's quite liberating.
304689
It is in my humble opinion that Fallout:Equestria is quite credible, but obviously that is a subjective opinion and a matter of choice, so unless you wish to bring it up I will not argue that point. I will, however, address your other concerns as stated in the first paragraph in my responses to your following paragraphs.
If you recall in Celestia's monologue concerning Discord, as she describes him as having "ruled Equestria in an eternal state of unrest and unhappiness" the camera pans to an image of the creature dangling ponies by wires embedded in their limbs over greenish flames, and faint screaming can be heard in the background. If you call his antics "not harmful", it seems you and I have different definitions of the term. He shows little restraint in bringing actual torment; imagine the physical damage of being forced to dance upon a broken hip joint, or having your body made to scratch its way through hard-packed soil like a dog. If you would like more imagery of the probable psychological and physical damage of Discord's antics, amusing as they may be to him and less reality-minded individuals, I would invite you to skim the "Discorded Pony POV Series" by Alex Warlorn on either Equestria Daily or Deviantart.
According to the assessment of the Sisters thus far, it seems the Nightmare is a part of Luna.
Although the intent may be to utilize a captive and living audience, Lauren Faust has clearly stated in the past (link) that, I quote, "Nightmare Moon didnot just intend to make eternal night, but to usher in an era of evil. Celestia had a responsibility to her 'people' to protect them." Although she admits her plot may not have been accepted by the current producers of the show, the pilot was her story and so I take her opinion on it and her intents for it to be as close to canon as possible until stated otherwise by the current producers. Elsewhere (link) she has also stated in response to why characters were so upset about eternal night that it is, and I quote again, "Because their food can't grow without sunlight." This, then, would cause starvation, which would ultimately lead to genocide.
My conclusions, then, have been based off of what I have taken to be show and creator canon, with what I consider reasonable extrapolations based on known facts. I do not attempt to bring make anypony OOC, and have based my expectations of the antagonist OC's off of their existing actions, demeanor and allegiance, as well as the existin actions and demeanor of the mistress they serve and the master I had erroneously assumed they served. As it is, I continue to express surprise and some sense of incredulity at what I consider quite merciful and occasionally stupid actions on the part of the antagonists, even allowing for the author's choice of not having rape and torture. As I have stated previously, "I'll tone it down to merely the threatening of life and perhaps some beating now and then... They have already been more than willing to kidnap, imprison, threaten and to a certain extent torture. I see no reason, aside from the author's choice which I respect, for the enemy to refrain from taking advantage of the situation as they see fit."
Feel free, however, to submit rebuttals to my current qualified claims and support.
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If you recall in Celestia's monologue concerning Discord, as she describes him as having "ruled Equestria in an eternal state of unrest and unhappiness" the camera pans to an image of the creature dangling ponies by wires embedded in their limbs over greenish flames, and faint screaming can be heard in the background.
The image is one pony of each race in expressive emotional distress with the "wires" leading to auras surrounding the ponies, not to their bodies, and the flames are pink. It's a mural. Not literal. And all the ponies scream and panic all the time at the slightest provocation anyway.
If you call his antics "not harmful", it seems you and I have different definitions of the term. He shows little restraint in bringing actual torment; imagine the physical damage of being forced to dance upon a broken hip joint, or having your body made to scratch its way through hard-packed soil like a dog.
Good god, this is what I mean. It's like you see the world through blood tinted lenses. Discord uses reality warping magic, not psychological control. He inverts and subverts, he does not torment out of malice. He is CHAOS INCARNATE. Chaos is neither good nor evil. Without chaos there could be no life, no love, no fun, but without order there could be no stability, no peace, no rest. His problem is he creates chaos to the EXCLUSION of order, upsetting the BALANCE; not that he is truly evil. He just IS. That's why the Elements could cleanse Luna, but not Discord. There was nothing to cleanse. And if Discord is in fact the source of Chaos (novelty) in the FiM universe, completely extinguishing him would lead to a stagnant world of pure order (entropy).
Granny Smith's hip was not broken. Ever. It was worn. Discord used magic to heal it and have her dance because he thinks inversion is funny. (Have you noticed she no longer uses a walker after that episode?) Same with Big mac. He is the farmer, he was turned into the farmers pest, a gopher or "prairie dog" hence the doglike licking. It was a goddamn PUN for fuck's sake, not a forced torture. (Although making puns tangible is pretty evil.)
If you would like more imagery of the probable psychological and physical damage of Discord's antics, amusing as they may be to him and less reality-minded individuals, I would invite you to skim the "Discorded Pony POV Series" by Alex Warlorn on either Equestria Daily or Deviantart.
I know of it yes. It's well written and emotionally stirring, but in the end yet another dark fic that misses the point in it's self importance.
According to the assessment of the Sisters thus far, it seems the Nightmare is a part of Luna.
In the show it is word of god that it was Luna's darkside but with help from some forbidden magical force, yes, but not in all fanon. I'm only referring to the fanon of this fic right here.
Although the intent may be to utilize a captive and living audience, Lauren Faust has clearly stated in the past that, I quote, "Nightmare Moon didnot just intend to make eternal night, but to usher in an era of evil. Celestia had a responsibility to her 'people' to protect them." Although she admits her plot may not have been accepted by the current producers of the show, the pilot was her story and so I take her opinion on it and her intents for it to be as close to canon as possible until stated otherwise by the current producers.
Of course her rule would have been "evil", she was fueled entirely by envy and wrath and fear. But all she wanted was to get her way. Not burn the world. Again, your interpretation of what Nightmare Moon's "evil reign" would entail is just much more intense than what I consider realistic, apparently.
Elsewhere she has also stated in response to why characters were so upset about eternal night that it is, and I quote again, "Because their food can't grow without sunlight." This, then, would cause starvation, which would ultimately lead to genocide.
Yes, this was canonized in the Hearth's Warming Eve episode. I don't really have an argument against this. I'm not saying evil and death don't exist in the FiM world, I'm just saying that it is an extreme that should not be embraced as the norm. (I would like to believe that the threat of "eternal night" is only so, a threat. But I must admit that is only my optimist perspective on this current point and not entirely objective.. Can you admit your perspective is skewed on some things as well?)
My conclusions, then, have been based off of what I have taken to be show and creator canon, with what I consider reasonable extrapolations based on known facts.
I consider your extrapolations completely unreasonable.
I do not attempt to bring make anypony OOC, and have based my expectations of the antagonist OC's off of their existing actions, demeanor and allegiance, as well as the existin actions and demeanor of the mistress they serve and the master I had erroneously assumed they served.
Define what you mean.
If you mean OOC compared to the show canon then nearly every character in this fic is already OOC without your help. That's what you get when you make a scenario more mature than the source. It's unavoidable and I really don't mind.
If you mean OOC based in the fanon of this fic, then that is not for you or I to define. What the author says is IC for his characters is word of god. If he says they are callous and violent but not sadistic or depraved, you need to accept that. Not as an "author's choice of portrayal" as you currently are, but as set in stone literal canon (fanon) for these characters. Whether you agree with their action or not they are 100% logical due to who the characters are as defined by the author. It's not toned down, dumbed down nor skirting the issue. It's just the way they are, the only way, the REAL way, whether you agree with it or not.
As it is, I continue to express surprise and some sense of incredulity at what I consider quite merciful and occasionally stupid actions on the part of the antagonists, even allowing for the author's choice of not having rape and torture. As I have stated previously, "I'll tone it down to merely the threatening of life and perhaps some beating now and then... They have already been more than willing to kidnap, imprison, threaten and to a certain extent torture. I see no reason, aside from the author's choice which I respect, for the enemy to refrain from taking advantage of the situation as they see fit."
Well if you have a logic problem with the story as it's written I do not begrudge you that.
But if your logic problem is that the mane characters are not being brutalized nearly enough... Fuck that.
305988
If that is your interpretation then I will leave that as your choice, as the mural has not been further addressed as far as I could find.
If indeed Discord is Chaos incarnate the laws of physics would no longer apply. Simply that the characters are capable of existing in a material form, coherent thought and action would seem to imply more malice than mindless chaos. If he were indeed entirely neutral in his creation of chaos he would not take such pleasure in his orderly destruction of the psyche of each of the main characters. Another has said "even chaos would end one day. When the stars will burn out, when the particles would stop moving, it would end." Although Entropy is ever increasing, at the end of the day what is left is orderly and uniform. Additionally, Discord shows desire, emotion, anger, frustration, glee. He shows planning and motive, all aspects of ORDER, not pure, indifferent chaos. As an "avatar of chaos" he would be failing greatly.
And what would be the point, pray tell?
As you wish.
From an objective standpoint, her motive was to bring eternal night. This is the absence of sunlight. The weather patterns and the life of the planet is dependent upon the electromagnetic waves received from the Sun. Without said electromagnetic waves, the surface would rapidly lose energy in the form of heat to the void of space, lowering the temperature of the surface of the planet. This in turn would create a cycle by which the atmosphere is slowly frozen, causing more heat to be lost, and so on, until the planet becomes cold and barren. If the Sun itself is not extinguished, but the planet's rotation (or the rotation of the Celestial bodies around the planet, assuming a geocentric universe) is stopped, then one half of the planet would rapidly burn and the other side freeze in a similar manner to the way the poles freeze and the equator burns, but to an even more extreme extent. I do not see how this is unrealistic.
I will admit my perspective on personalities and individual choices may be skewed, but to be convinced of their error I would need rational and as objective as possible proof. Note that I am not accusing you of anything here, I am simply stating my preference, although I would request that this debate continue with minimal name-calling and swearing; I am sure we can be civil in our discussion if we so choose to be.
Very well, but I request specification as to which extrapolations and why you believe them to be unreasonable, taking into account this reply.
If that is your opinion, I will not argue it. In my own humble opinion, I prefer stories in which the characters initially act as close to their canon personalities as possible, and progress in a rational, realistic and reasonable manner to the characterization desired. For example, I would have no problem with, say, Twilight Sparkle becoming a fourth-wall-breaking Element of Laughter, but reasonable explanation must be given, in my opinion, for the story to be in any way shape or form believable, rather than simply "because the author chose so".
My objections thus far have been to the characterization, choices and actions of the individuals based on their shown qualities and personalities, as well as to the internal threat analysis and logic of the overarching story itself. If it seems I protest the pacifism of the story, it is because the characters given have acted in a manner which does not in my humble opinion inspire much faith in their pacifism. I will not object to the mane characters being treated civilly and even in a childishly sweet manner, if their captors were portrayed as in any way pacifist, troubled by their actions, sympathetic towards the characters, or questioning of their own motives. They have not been thus portrayed as far as I could tell, thus my objections. And as I have stated previously, I would request that this debate continue with minimal name-calling and swearing; I am sure we can be civil in our discussion if we so choose to be.
306217
Firstly, there was no name calling. I never used any derogatory term to describe you as a person.
Second, if the swearing offended you I do not apologize. I doubt expletives not directed at you and describing nothing could be found as offensive by you as I find the concept of the actions you conclude to be rational progression of the villains characterizations in this fic. However, I will restrain myself to an extent.
As for the characterization of Discord, I would love to discuss it further as I find him a fascinating character but that is not the point of all this talk in my opinion so I will move on.
As for the Nightmare Moon thing, I never said that was unrealistic. I agreed with this assessment in the 6th paragraph of plain text in the post above.
I will admit my perspective on personalities and individual choices may be skewed, but to be convinced of their error I would need rational and as objective as possible proof.
Very well, but I request specification as to which extrapolations and why you believe them to be unreasonable, taking into account this reply.
You are viewing things in absolutes. There are no absolutes.
It's hard to offer you proof or contradictory evidence when you have such a fundamental disconnect in your logic. Between your objective analysis of a character and situation and your extremely subjective assessment of that character's likely motivations and actions there is a step you are taking somewhere that bypasses rational thought and disregards human (pony) nature and sociological input from the equation.
You say "They work for an evil one, they have already done very bad things, why wouldn't they do even worse things?" That is not a logical, that is merely an extremist possibility. That someone who would do such things might have it in them to do MORE extreme things is a logical assumption but it is NOT from any rational perspective a sure thing, nor in all honesty a likelihood.
That only takes base characterization and limited evidence into consideration and extrapolates it to it's most extreme while bypassing all objective assessment from sociological, psychological, and situational factors.
You are forming your assessments in a bubble, using characterization extrapolation and reference gathering within the confines of a very limited scope.
For any individual to be as morally bankrupt and sadistic as you suggest the villains in this story should be they would require EXTREME stressors or conditioning to break down the inhibiting barriers. The characters do NOT act as trained soldiers so there's no conditioning, they also do not appear to be sociopathic enough to have suffered the stress necessary. That's not to say that such things are impossible, individuals with such mindsets crop up in all cultures and geographies, but such individuals would probably considered undesirable by a functional unit who are engaged in an objective based and very dangerous mission that cannot afford loose canons and sadists who often prove unreliable and slaves to their desires rather than the mission.
Torture: This is either to gather information (they don't need any), to break one's spirit (they don't need to) or for sadistic pleasure (this would be statistically impossible to be applied to the entire group and would be an undesirable trait on an objective based mission, they are trying to accomplish something, not running a dungeon).
Rape: This is either a form of torture or a form of sadistic pleasure, or to assert dominance. All unlikely, unnecessary or undesirable scenarios for the same reasons as torture above.
Execution: This has less defense against. Why would they take AJ hostage instead of kill her? True they could have. It wouldn't have really made a difference. Maybe they just didn't need to. Maybe they're just not killers. You would use the "Nightmare Moon would kill the whole world" reasoning here, but there are plenty of others against: If the villain is NMM then she would NOT want the Elements of Harmony fractured. That would cause Discord's release and she could not stand against him for instance.
As for your closing paragraph, I understand that you are not ADVOCATING horrible things being done to the ponies.
I understand you are merely bringing up your opinion that the enemies seem to be acting with significantly less malice than their characterizations would suggest. I simply disagree with that opinion and can logically assess many more reasons for them NOT to do so than there are for them TO do so.
Just because they roughed up a couple ponies does not mean they are capable of atrocities. Just because they might work for Nightmare Moon does not mean they they are necessarily advocates of nor aware of any intended global genocide.
You assume that because they are affiliated with evil and have done some bad things and act callously and cruelly that they HAVE to be blackened death mongering rapist meat grinder cannibals. There are shades of grey you know.
306424
I have not accused you of such, I merely request that we continue to refrain from doing so.
I do not ask for an apology; again, I simply request for restraint, and I am glad you are willing to oblige.
Very well.
Very well.
Actually, my reasoning is "They work for a creature that lacks empathy for ponykind in general, have shown themselves perfectly capable and willing to kidnap, imprison, threaten and to a so far light extent brutalize some of the most important ponies in Equestria, and know almost certainly that if caught they have absolutely nothing to lose by doing one more bad deed, so I would expect at least some form of moral degradation beyond what has been shown."
I concede this, although if there were even the slightest chance of escape from within breaking the prisoner would lower risks of losing her enough to warrant it, from an objective standpoint at least. If, and admittedly this is a large if, the captors were objective-minded enough, I would not be surprised for one of their first acts upon capturing a pegasus such as Rainbow Dash to be clipping her wings and perhaps sufficient abuse to ensure she wouldn't try any escape attempts ever. This is a moot point, however, as the author has stated there would be no such content in the story.
Would you REALLY put it past some of the male captors to not take advantage of a helpless and for all purposes compliant female prisoner given the opportunity? But again, this point is moot, for the same reason stated above.
The Elements are as much a threat to her as they are to Discord. "Anti-Dragon rifle in a dragon cave" indeed. Actually, for this act I was more thinking about the enemy agents' acts towards the soldiers sent against them, as well as the soldiers' acts against the agents. As it is a WAR, it surprises me that the enemy hasn't killed any soldiers, either to defend their secrets or to delay them, and the soldiers haven't killed any of the enemy agents, either to defend the Elements or to move against the enemy. Like marines going into an insurgent camp, aside from author choice (which I believe this is) I do not see taking an enemy base as very likely without at least SOME casualties on one side or the other. Not that I do not say it is impossible, as given the perfect combination of coincidences or supremely good tactics on one side (mostly the enemy's) it is possible, but unlikely.
I respect your opinion, and have made my reply to your logic above. It is, as of this message, on your last point which I believe we continue to have major disagreements on which have not yet been solved by author's choice.
CAPABLE they certainly are; see the Stanford prison experiments to prove anypony is CAPABLE, but if I am not mistaken I believe you meant by that WILLING, which I will concede, it is not necessarily so. It is, however, in my opinion to a certain extent a likelihood given increasing stress as the soldiers continue to dog them and they approach their deadline/objective. I would expect at least a few of them to begin losing their capacity for patience, mercy and kindness with captives and soldiers. As the soldiers have shown, THEY certainly have no objections to incapacitating and interrogating the agents, so in my humble opinion it should only be expected for the enemy to be increasingly merciless with prisoners and even more merciless with soldiers. There already has been blood spilled, albeit non-fatal, and I would be quite surprised if more were not spilled.
I have claimed no such thing, i have only claimed incredulity at the mercy and kindness of the captors so far. I am aware of shades of grey, thus I have not expressed surprise at lack of cannibalism.
307084
In the end the core disagreement between us is what we consider these characters capable of or willing to do based on their current actions and depiction.
Every single one of your examples serve to show what they are theoretically capable of. This is true.
It is your automatically leaping to extremes that I cannot come to terms with.
Mainly you seem to go straight to "it should be worse" merely from the concept "it could be worse".
I cannot make that leap of logic. It goes against everything I know and observe about human behavior and the characterizations in this fic.
There are factors that would make the behavior you suggest a greater likelihood, but none of those factors are present in this scenario as far as I can tell.
As you say, it is a moot point since no such content will be presented in this fic.
In all honesty the only reason I engaged you in discussion in the first place is because I wanted to understand your motivation behind the statements you had made. I was not sure if you were casually trolling by suggesting a more grimdark than likely scenario or if you were serious. And if you were serious, whether it was because you are a grimdark enthusiast or another reason.
I believe I've settled on "other": We just don't think the same way. You are being genuine as far as I can tell, and I respect that, but I will never ever see things the way you do.
307385
It is, perhaps, a combination of my belief in Murphy's Law and personal experience with seemingly nice individuals both online and in real life that drives my current opinion; I understand it is not by any means universally shared or even understood, and I do not expect it to be.
I would think increased stress as the Royal Guard being clamping down more tightly would be one such factor, and unless I am misinterpreting the situation I am under the impression that that is a genuine possibility in the near future for the characters within this story.
In any case, I am glad that we have been capable of a civil and polite discussion and have ended on a good-natured note, agreeing to disagree. As new chapters are added, possibly swaying the story towards one side or the other, I look forward to perhaps continuing our conversations, although perhaps on a different topic, in the future. It has been a joy and a privilege to be able to converse with you, and I thank you for your time.
@307385 and 307846
I'm glad that you two have reached the core issue of your disagreement. It was quite interesting seeing you two hold an actual civilized debate on the internet. Wonders never cease.
That said, I am... upset... at both of you over your arguement's defacement of the concept of Chaos. It is a sore point with me, so I'll make my point quick. Discord is refered to as the embodyment of Chaos AND Disharmony. As opposed to ORDER and Disharmony, which you refered to as Entropy.
Not making this distinction makes our resident embodyment of Chaos and Harmony VERY SAD:
To 307385 and 307846
What 308271 said. Hooves up, my fellow herd members, a brohoof for each of you tonight. I've never seen such a thorough, yet calmly-worded discussion, in real life or otherwise. I'm flattered to have you as readers. I'll also make a deal with you. I'll do my best to produce quality work, if you (and this applies to everyone) continue to have healthy discussions about it.
A round of muffins, on me!
307846
Sounds good. Were all here to read and be entertained after all.
308271
Order (entropy) and Chaos (novelty) can both be used for good or evil. it's not the chaos/order alignment that determines this, but the good/evil/neutral alignment.
308295
Glad it turned out this way myself. I would never want to clutter a fic thread with silly arguments. I've... started things, no malicious intent of course, just unthinkingly, on other fic's threads that were... unnecessary and I like to think I've learned my lesson.
Oh and HOLY CRAP. (Pardon my language).
This discussion between myself and wanderingmagus from the first comment I replied to to my reply in this post ... the word count (not counting quoted material) is: 4666 words.
308327
Indeed we are ...and that was a very long discussion.
308295
And thank you for having written such a wonderful story for us to discuss!
308271
Hmm... I'm sorely tempted to begin discussion #2 with three voices What do you say, DPV111 and Starcat5? Up for another round?
310265
I would be reluctant to do so as the topic of discussion would not be relevant to this locale.