Diary of the Night

by CalebH

Reunion - Chapter 74

Celestia did eventually learn the truth of my assault on the griffons. “We are not angry, merely disappointed,” she said. Hades take her disappointment; Tartarus has her enemies and my anger rests on the battlefield. She is too proud to admit that victory was won not with heroic charges against a superior force or by soldiers in that imbecilic golden armor, but by a princess who regarded the safety of her ponies above even her own morality.

When the battle was put to song, it was the shields of the day before the walls of a mighty fortress, not the fangs of the night in a griffon aerie. Celestia stood as the hero in the light while we were only the villain in her shadow.
-L

Author's Note:

if your not interested in overly analyzing the show and headcannons and such just skip this.

BronyCurious posted an analysis video defending the idea of ascended Celestia and Luna. while he does raise a few good points i disagree with most of them.

He states that Faust is no longer in control of what is and is not cannon.

I am in a D&D group that is based in the MLP world. It is a very customized version of the pathfinder rulebook that has admittedly led to some very overpowered characters. this group has changed DM's 3 times now but when questions of what is cannon come up the original DM gets final say. While the show has moved on from her original setting, or changed DM's, i still say that Faust still has a say in what is cannon for elements of the show that she created, such as Celestia and Luna.

The crux of his argument was that saying Celestia and Luna were born alicorns degraded Twilight's ascention to a point where receiving a medal or an award would accomplish the same thing. I would like to bring up the point that medals and awards do not physically change the person receiving them.

Quick question, what is the trait most often associated with leadership? Height. Twilight is now taller, her horn is longer and she is now something that Celestia and Luna could never be, an ascended alicorn. If they were too she would be a fool not to defer to their centuries of experience, she would still very much be Celestia's student and nothing would have changed.

But now that Twilight is something different from Celestia and Luna, Cadence alone(barring another surprise alicorn) is her superior in this. The relationship between Twilight and Cadence is already established as one of mutual respect and friendship, not as master and student. Though Twilight still has much to learn she is no longer only a student, she has literally grown into her role as a leader.

Comments

[djthomp]

Since when has the question of whether Celestia and Luna were born alicorns or ascended been addressed either direction in canon?

[schpeelah]

He states that Faust is no longer in control of what is and is not cannon.

It's called death of the author. It's generally accepted among people who study literature and basically states that the only thing canon to a work is its own contents and the author's interpretation is not inherently superior to any other. Things Faust (or anyone on the creative team) says about FiM, if not supported by the show are not canon and never were. In other words, before Deathly Hallows was published if you contradicted JKR on whether Dumbledore is dead, you would not be wrong - neither of you would be right or wrong.

I am in a D&D group (...) this group has changed DM's 3 times now but when questions of what is cannon come up the original DM gets final say.

And? What do anecdotes about your personal arrangements with a particular group have to do with anything? I could counter that in my group, you'd be considered stupid to suggest that anyone could contradict the current DM if he, say, reveals the backstory of a villain introduced by the first DM on the grounds that it's not what DM1's notes say. It's his plot at the moment after all.

Except of course things directly pertaining to a PC like backstory, which obviously are the domain of the player. And equally obviously, group consensus can overrule everything on every subject.

I personally also disagree with the video. C&L being born alicorn doesn't degrade Twilight, it degrades them. For Twilight the wings are a mark of extraordinary accomplishment, indeed it was ascension through achieving enlightenment. If they were merely born that way, greater powers and all, then they have never and can never accomplish the same thing, making them forever inferior.

[CalebH]

3281338 The closest this question has come to being addressed in cannon is Lauren Faust said they were born alicorn. It is referenced in the video I linked but it was after she left the show and she never intended for Cadence or Twilacorn.
In seasons 1 and 2 the question would have made an interesting backstory but never really came up. with Cadence and Twilight the question still isn't very pressing and is just some of us being way too analytical about it.

still its something to put in the authors notes.

[CalebH]

3281590 I'm a CS major and keeping this fic readable is more or less the extent of my literary prowess, so I haven't really heard of terms like 'death of the author'. It does make sense that anything said by the author(or ex-author as the case may be) but not put into the show is neither canon nor un-canon, though I still regard Faust's word on the matter as above average authority.

I wrote the D&D anecdote to give some information on where my position was coming from, an older=more canon position. I do not mean to say it is the most correct, just that that is where i'm coming from.

Though Celestia and Luna being born alicorns means they never 'earn their wings' it does not necessarily mean they have not proved themselves worthy of them. Whether they have or not is headcannon territory so i won't say, but being born alicorn doesn't necessarily mean they are not good alicorns.

Though now that I have the idea don't be surprised if that becomes the subject of some self doubt for Luna later on.

[xTSGx]

...i still say that Faust still has a say in what is cannon for elements of the show that she created, such as Celestia and Luna.

Unfortunately, you'd be wrong. As she's no longer affiliated with the show, what she says, or what her "vision" is is no more credible than mine or yours. After all, we're not working on the show just as she isn't.

A good example would be the "only two alicorns" comment. She wants two alicorns, but since she's not on the show, what she wants is irrelevant to canon.

[RayearthNinja]

Twilight taller? She wasn't in Equestria Girls as a pony or the moments we saw her as an Alicorn in the finale. And her horn wasn't longer either.

[Allsmiles]

It seems like Celestia and Luna are suffering from being completely bucking ignorant of the way things are. Pardon my language.

Luna. A powerful general, a skilled leader. A TERRIBLE ruler. Of course no songs were sung for her. You can't praise murder, you can't extol assassination, you can't sing the virtues of the blade in the night. To do so would impart a social value into the civilian populace that would ultimately lead to instability, inter-pony violence, and possible government collapse. When your hero songs are about ruthless assassins, what do you think ponies will do to solve their problems? Act like good citizens? Go to the law? Or take a dagger to their rival's throat in the night? Luna did what was necessary, my only complaint might be that she didn't go far enough... but it was downright foolish of her, and even ignorant, to expect praise for it. And of course her lack of praise and appreciation, coupled with her expectations of it, led to outright revolt... unless you go a different route with that.

And Celestia... A skilled diplomat, a wonderful ruler. She would make a HORRIFIC general, and get her people all killed in the first real war if somepony like Luna wasn't around. She can disarm countless situations, gain the love of so many ponies, cares about her people's problems, and does everything in her power to help the world around her grow, prosper, and become better. She is selfless, in so many ways, and charitable, and has guided Equestria to a utopia. The effectiveness of her rule cannot be disputed without significantly altering Equestria's structure. But she to seems to suffer from naivety. To be 'Dissapointed' in her sister? Luna saved all of Equestria, but she was 'Dissapointed' not only because she didn't understand the necessity of brutal action, but because she didn't even have the guts to be legitimately angry about it because Luna was her sister and she didn't want to hurt ties.

Celestia is supposed to be the symbol to look up to. Luna is supposed to be the guard in the dark. And neither of them seem to understand that. They claim the jobs without knowing what they entail. Celestia's not a tactician! Luna's not a leader! They try to be the other one while still doing their jobs! And then they don't respect the jobs that the other does because they each think they could do it better! ... Or that's how it looks to me. All in all, I'm very disappointed with both of them. This is ridiculous and childish on their part. They both need to gain some self-awareness... and then they need to sit down and have a long talk with each other.

[BenRG]

So, it seems that there really were cultural clashes between the two sisters - they did things in different ways and didn't understand the other too well. Then the straw broke the camel's back when Celestia started taking credit for Luna's victories on the grounds that she regarded the means Luna used to get them as either dishonourable or even criminal? In some ways, then, it was all inevitable.

Could it have been Luna's pegasi blood? The pegasi have ever been a warrior folk but the earth ponies, like Celestia's mother, have always been first and foremost builders, growers and healers, as far from the business of war as you can imagine.