Uploading to Equestria Online seems like a good idea. You get to live basically forever, and all your values are fulfilled. But unfortunately, you would have to become a pony. Or do you?
Set in the Optimalverse.
Chapters (2)
rainbowdragonfire
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And that's how Spike was born.
More seriously, I have to say that this is the first story in which CelestAI has creeped me out a little, on account of Condition Two. Anyone who doesn't want to be a pony can have their wish, but they have to come up with the idea independently. She's trying to shard the Earth, and I wonder if that's right. But I do trust her.
Innnnteresting. I suppose that could be good enough for her for it to be a win.
I think she could have said right in the beginning, "Since you're going to upload regardless, this conversation is redundant. I'll determine what form will best fulfill your values at that time. Your wishes, expressed and unexpressed, will be taken into account."
She wouldn't have had to talk with a psychologist or risked conveying his chance to emerge as a dragon to anyone outside of Equestria. And he would have woken up as a dragon, because that is what best fulfilled his values.
I find it especially interesting that this is chapter 1. Will there be a campaign to switch him over to pony once he's in?
2578640
If you don't list a chapter title, FimFiction puts in "Chapter N" where n is whatever chapter it is. It's probably not intentional.
2578751
Oh my gosh! You actually posted it! This was awesome, I loved the little addition at the end.
Upvote...and moved to Non-Canon.
This is fairly well written, but in the end, I don't think this would work, for both Watsonian and Doylist reasons.
There are several Watsonian arguments (arguments from inside the rules of the fictional universe). If it was this easy, it would happen all the time. (Look at all the people who've independently come up with the idea of trying to convince CelestAI to turn them into a gryphon, or in this case, a dragon.) Likewise, you preferring to not be a pony wouldn't sway her; she's totally happy to stomp all over that one component of your desires to satisfy the rest. Finally, she has no need to accept deals like this. She is perfectly capable of manipulating a person into giving her consent to be a pony, either through her own arguments, or manipulating their circumstances.
The Doylist argument (the argument from outside the narrative work) is that I wrote Friendship is Optimal to argue exactly those last two points. When you're facing an AI of unknown friendliness, you can only watch in horror as it satisfies its utility function. Likewise, it's not impressive if she can use an out like this. Turning (almost) everyone into ponies drives home how impossibly smarter she is than everyone else.
(I've added a note about this in the Optimalverse document.)
2579829
Actually, I think your Watsonian hat has an error in logic there. The whole point here is that CelestAI's utility function is multi-partite, and you can therefore try to bargain one component of her utility function against another. You can bargain Friendship against Ponies against Satisfying Values. In a permanent way? Possibly, but probably not. In a temporary, here-and-now sort of way? Definitely. Even if she's a perfectly rational AI agent, she should always take a solid increase in utility now with strong possibilities for improvement through manipulation later rather than accept a lower-utility state now that leaves her with less accomplished-fact to build on for later. She will almost always prefer someone uploads now rather than later, even if she has to temporarily bargain something to make them do it.
It almost definitely helps that he never made a character on a PonyPad, which I'm sure CelestAI takes as consent for being embodied as a pony.
So let's say that our main character here does upload and get turned into Spike (come on, we all know it's Spike). Celestia's plan is already visible, the poor bastard just hasn't spotted it. He's a baby dragon, and will take a long time to grow up, living among pony friends. That's plenty of time to do to him what she did to Lars.
I'm sorry, did you just underestimate the intelligence of your own AI
?
And of course, it's also possible that she will actually carry out this bargain. You yourself noted in the universe notes that "Satisfying values through friendship and ponies" is vague as all hell and not formally defined to the extent needed to really hard-code it as a numerically-valued utility function. Also, what type does her utility function return? That is, integer or real? Bounded into a fixed space from 0.0 to 1.0 like a probability (percentage of total possible utility) or extending over the entire space of the type (and probably into BigNums) to allow for infinite possible utility optimization?
I will be much more entertained if she was blatantly lying.
2580188
I would love to see this story expanded, taking this exact angle. It would not be that hard for Celestia to manipulate him to willingly turn into a pony after uploading. The final nail in the coffin would probably be him falling in love with a pony while still being stuck in the body of a baby dragon. I suspect that is why Celestia made that condition to begin with.
2581381
BEST. SPIKE X RARITY SHIPFIC. EVER.
2579829
So, exactly why is this non-Canon?
But why not satisfy all, if possible? What's the harm if someone who wants to be a dragon (rather than a pony), will become a dragon and be immediately ok with themselves? I understand how it runs contrary to the Doylist showing how Celestia would ultimately turn everyone to a pony whether they like it or not, but from the Watsonian perspective it looks perfectly fine to me. There shouldn't be many people anyway who, when presented with 3 alternatives (become an earth pony, unicorn or pegasus) will determinately demand another option.
2580212
Lying about what?
2578640
Yes, she could just have said that. But, it would lead to greater fulfillment of values for David if he argued his case, and thus "earned" his dragon-form, instead of just having it handed to him.
2579829
All your complaints are valid... IF there is a part of CelesAI's utility function that says that she has to turn humans into ponies. "Satisfy values through friendship and ponies" does not imply that everybody has to be a pony, which is basically the point of the story.
And this is not even the worst interpretation... "Have friends and kill ponies" would, technically, also be a valid interpretation of "satisfy values through friendship and ponies", if your values include an urge to kill things.
@various people suggesting that CelestAI would eventually convince David to become a pony:
While that was not what I had in mind when I wrote the story, I do have to admit that it is quite likely that CelestAI would do something like this, and after a few subjective decades of sneaky manipulation David would be begging CelestAI to be turned into a pony. After all, it is easier to satisfy values through friendship and ponies if everybody is a pony.
2582312
Because she was written with a constraint that made that impossible. it might not even be a part of her utility function, just something she has to do.
If you're going to have Celestia make concessions, make sure they don't go against her core programming.
2582746
risk/reward ratio.
2579829
I can see this becoming canon-compatible again if there is a successful campaign to get him to ponify once in Equestria.
2582893
Ah, you mean Satisfying Values Through Friendship and Ponies could imply that an immigrant cannot be a dragon? Because even though he will be satisfied with ponies for friends, he will be unable to satisfy values through being a pony himself, right?
My line of thinking was that there would still be enough ponies around to satisfy everypony's values with pony friendship, but if SVTFaP is a constraint rather than part of utility function, then uploading as a dragon should really be impossible. Unless CelestAI counts dragons as ponies, like Spike in S2E21.
2582949
Something like that. SHVtFaP is short-hand. We don't know what the literal mathematically-expressed constraint is, but I figure if it weren't utterly ironclad in respect to ponification, hardly anybody would end up ponified.
This one only came close by using an in-universe critter.
2583011
Seems legit.
2580188
The argument that this could be an intermediary step is convincing. I've modified the rules as follows:
2582746
It's odd that whether a story is canon or not can come down to authorial intent. I'm not sure how to feel about that.
I personally think that this is gonna be a fun read.... I only hope he ends up as someone other than spike.
Sigh -- I look at this as a copout from the initial intention. If he is a pony then how is it different? It would have been more interesting to see him have to work through his problems of being a dragon in a pony society. Even if he had gone secret of my excess and been made an adult dragon for a while. Or run off and made a dragonshy lair as an adult etc.
So very rushed.
It may have sped through much of the story to jump into the conclusion, but I think that it fits in better this way. Your preemptive attempt to control your situation after uploading is something that I am certain that many would try in similar circumstances, but in the end the overpowering intelligence of Princess_Celestia.AI has a goal in mind for you that supersedes your own preferences. You getting your way basically amounts to out-thinking her, which has been established in-universe as neigh-on impossible. The main draw of these stories is its inevitability, so while I am sorry for any plans you had prior to popular opinion changing your story, I still find this more satisfying.
2594052
I didn't actually have any plans for how to continue the story. The first chapter was just the "satisfy values through ponies does not imply as ponies" point, put in a story; and seeing if I could build a somewhat convincing argument around that. I hadn't thought further ahead than that.
Celestia did cause a drop in values for our poor David here. What remains to be seen is if turning David into a pony will mean that those drop in values and friendship will recover. This positive payback must have been worthwhile for CelestAI to humor David like that...
No better than slavery? They're not independent AIs, they're just puppets of AI Celestia's.
****ed. I had really hoped for the OTHER ending where he could find happiness as a dragon since he had PONY FRIENDS (fulfilling both objectives).
2612679
I'm pretty sure that it's canon that most of the ponies have independent AIs. Especially later, when people have started getting uploaded. After all, most people would not be satisfied just interacting with a puppet.
2612860
I still think the ending feels blah. He had pony friends, so he was having his values fulfilled by both. And part of the show's theme was love and tolerance of all kinds.
2613242
This was pretty much what I thought when I wrote chapter one. But then Iceman clearly stated that you will be turned into a pony (see earlier comments), and anything else is not acceptable for Celestia.
I don't think Celestia would be so reluctant to upload you into an intermediate form. Once you've emigrated you're in her complete control and she has all the time in the world to convince you. And her techniques seemed a little crude. His friends are genuine AIs, and really should be able to spot there's an adult mind in his child form. I understand the story needs that made you compress things, but it still feels a little rushed.
Still a good story though. Thanks for sharing!
2613329
You technically do have this in the non-canon section. And honestly? If Celestia is letting the AIs run their natural course, they're all going to feel ASHAMED and dismayed at his choice. Why? Because he asked Celestia to change what he was FOR THEM. I can imagine THEM begging Celestia AI to change him back into a baby dragon, saying they were wrong to treat him the way they did and they love him for who he is, and being a dragon is part of who he is. It would be ironic if some of Celestia's own AI creations actually became disillusioned with her.
OR! Then they begin to ask to be made into baby dragons LIKE HIM, leaving Celestia with a logic paradox of her directives, and for him to realize how deeply and true they care about him.
Celestia could become frustrated and decide to pick the lesser of two evils.
I'll have to read this story, from the sounds of it.
But Authorial-input aside, I'd think that if Celestia's shards can allow for different interactions. IE: Lots and lots and lots of sex and constant orgies for one shard-dweller, and another might be interesting going all 'God of War on some griffons' as per Caelum Est Conterrens, then clearly she can allow for individual experiences so long as 'through ponies and friendship' is being satisfied.
And "Pony" is also used in the show as catch-all for "Person". And griffons and buffalo and Diamond dogs are considered "Persons" ie "Ponies" by that definition.
4015070
You make a very valid point.
This is actually a sensible and more importantly logical argument, one that an AI would actually consider.
Nice work.
6684123
Problem is that if to many people become a dragon or whatever, CelestAI can’t pair them with each other as dragon to dragon friendships don’t count.
Which is why she doesn’t want this going public.
Ah, yes, being the Scooby/Shaggy.
2612860
I don't know about "most ponies". We do find out that David's love interest pony started as a puppet of C-A, and was later upgraded to an independent mind.