I had this idea. What if the title "Queen" or "King" for the changelings had actually the meaning of "hero" with the "Kings/Queens" only having political influence if they gathered enough support to acquire a position of said influence? Meaning changelings could very well disagree with them and refuse to follow their lead in politics or war.

5099256 I'll admit the way I imagine changeling society to work has a similar theme. Overall a group mind would decide what the majority of changelings actually want. Meanwhile an individual who has gained a great degree of prestige for their previous acts of leadership, their intellect or their wisdom comes to hold the title King or Queen providing a stable centerpiece that decides how to approach the swarm/hive/nation's goals.

5099424 It's certainly more interesting than single-minded tyranny. I like to think that generally they are aware of friendship and the such.

Ultimately, Queen Chrysalis has firm control over the minds of her subjects, though they still have their own. If it weren't for this truth, Chrysalis's changelings would not be able to gather love without having trouble with their loyalties given that ponies will isolate a changeling from their hive even if unwittingly raising it. You have a good life in ponyville surrounded by gaurds and some of the strongest demigoddesses your world has seen, why go back to a hive in the middle of a wasteland that you spend less time at than when you are out doing your job? you certainly have enough love to stay.

Chrysalis's hive is loyal to her beyond the scope of popular appeal. This kind of society can't exist fractured as it must be to survive without supernatural order imposed upon their psyche. Thankfully, Changelings are likely never the less their own beings and have individual uniqueness and value, otherwise Chrysalis would be doing the above and simply not have kids.

5099493 That's an interesting way of putting it but I disagree as it relies on a few assumptions such as the standard of living being low for changelings in their native regions, be it the Bad Lands or elsewhere. You also assume that changelings do not value their own society or lack a culture to which they feel they are a part of. A great many people like to visit other countries on holiday or regularly commute places for work that have a great many advantages over their own but would never move there because it simply is not home.

Perhaps they have a biologically or magically enforced loyalty to the Queen but it's more likely they are simply loyal to each other and their race/species. After all, who could better understand and sympathies with the plight of the changelings way of life... then another changeling?

5099535
>>you assume changelings dont value their society
no, I don't. I just have more of an understanding of how society molds you than a 9 year old
For a non hive minded creature, Equestria is going to be their society, it's the place they spend all of their time. All of their friends are there, All of their food is there, All of their creature comforts are there, Everything they know about how to behave is dictated by this society, to the point that when they return with love, its the hive thats the alien culture.
>>You assume they are poor.
The changelings attack with no weaponry, They have no clothing. They have been shown to have nothing of necessity to aid them in their plight despite risking everything to attack a powerful nation. they have every reason to want to make things that will minimize their casualties.
>> After all, who could better understand and sympathies with the plight of the changelings way of life... then another changeling?
Chances are, you do not need to venture back to the hive to find one of your kind to let loose with.
>>loyal to each other instead of the queen.
and yet chrysalis is the one who commands them. they never disobey her orders even if it would be against their interest to do so.

5099493

ponies will isolate a changeling from their hive even if unwittingly raising it.

Ponies? hive? What? And why would they even do that? I don't understand your english really.

You have a good life in ponyville surrounded by gaurds and some of the strongest demigoddesses your world has seen, why go back to a hive in the middle of a wasteland that you spend less time at than when you are out doing your job? you certainly have enough love to stay.

Where is it said that changelings live in the badlands?

And what does this have to do with the term Queen equaling that of a hero? I already said that by this hypothesis Chrysalis just wouldn't have the power to stop ANY changeling from going about its' business.

In my country Greece after the revolution of 1821 though many of our generals like Kolokotronis and Miaoulis were considered heroes, LEGENDS even. We take our children to see the places where the lived, the cell in which Kolokotronis was. We go to see Mpoumpoulina's house who was a noble that funded the revolution against the Turks and battled against them.

After the revolution the "foreigners" as I like to call them right now... they gave us different leaders. Gave, placed... whatever. The point is that we had Kapodistrias now, who was assasinated by one of the "heroes" of the revolution ((because he was not given anything for his work?)) the Mavromixalis clan. We later had a King. Othon. After some time passed and shit went south Othon was forced by the people led by Miaoulis to make a more... democratic way of ruling.

What I'm trying to say it that although Miaoulis and Mavromixalis are heroes and warriors, and considered GREAT figures by many... were not appointed as a political leaders, and in all honesty most of the revolution's leaders were not fit to politically rule our country. Kapodistrias was also a great Greek. A great figure for his honest attempt to help the country. You could say he is on the same level of "heroic" because he was, and is... in the back of Greek coins and old paper money.

Similarly speaking Chrysalis could have done many things and by sheer military prowess, or whatever other ability she has, could have easily won over the hearts of many and became a "hero" a "Queen". She obviously wasn't in that position by accident but then again we don't know.

Similarly the changelings in that case wouldn't view her rule as tyranny and would even be grateful for her rule. The point is that whether a changeling chooses to follow Chrysalis, or another leader appointed by the changeling political system is up to them. That political system may be the one providing love through deals with other species... but failing. It could be any number of things. Draw the parallels really.

A political leader doesn't have to be a warrior, and a warrior doesn't have to be a political leader. Sometimes those positions are thrust to them but other times those individuals are just NOT good for those positions.
5099535 That's not just it. I mean if changelings were so dependent on other species they shouldn't be their own nation or thing after all. But they manage... That should mean that they are at least somewhat capable of living by themselves despite their biological dependence.

5099561 Who even said they are hive minded? And even if they were how would that make them any more inclined to join the ponies? Wouldn't that be somewhat deterring them from doing so?

Why would that even happen? Changelings could befriend other changelings as well and feel love from each other. Maybe they wouldn't be able to feed from it but trade and other stuff exist. They could even steal it if they had to... or it could be radiating around others and they could just take it like that.

The changelings attack with no weaponry, They have no clothing.

I think it's pretty much established by now that clothing is optional. Also weaponry? How about their magic? Their fangs? Their natural armor? Or the fact that they are mini alicorns in the sense that they have both magic and wings? Also did I mention how the ponies were 1)Warned about the attack 2)Were in a defensive position 3)Were attacked from outside 4)Were armed trained in their CAPITAL?

And yet despite all that they were STILL DEFEATED. In what? Almost an instant? Either this "powerful nation" is not so powerful and the guards are a bunch of incompetent assholes with all of Equestria relying on Deus Ex Machinas or.... the changelings are strong as well. One or the other... or maybe both.

Changelings also have superior numbers and the ability to do surprise attacks with extreme effectiveness. So yea... no. I think the changelings have enough to warrant them fighting for what they want. Otherwise by your logic they should have already integrated with pony society. They aren't now are they?

>>loyal to each other instead of the queen.
and yet chrysalis is the one who commands them. they never disobey her orders even if it would be against their interest to do so.

That is maybe because they chose so? Because Chrysalis showed ability?

Look this is derailing. My point is you don't choose the same guy that fights the war... to lead your nation. Most of the time. This might have happened in ancient times but now military and politics tend to be separate. What I did is disassociate the term "Queen" from politics and apply a different context to it. The choice to join the ponies or not is one the changelings get to make. The fact that they haven't done so is again their choice. But it is sort of different from the politics-war thing that I did.

5099561 Calm down dear. There's no need to start throwing insults over a difference of opinion over a fictional race of beings.

And again you are make certain assumptions about the changelings. Such as that they require an extended period of time out in the field to collect a sufficient amount of love to survive, that they can't build up store of love to last them a while without contact with others or don't have a closer family they would want to return to at the end of the day. However to say otherwise is equally an assumption as there isn't really any canon evidence one way or the other and they thus don't really support either of us.

But where your argument falls through is saying they belong to Equestrian society (assuming that is the country they are gathering love from at the time) simply because they spend a lot of time there. The customs and culture of Equestria do not dictate how they behave, simply how they pretend to behave. Sure they might actually enjoy the company of some ponies as friends and even some of the luxuries or activities exclusively available in Equestria but it is equally likely they simply put up with those things because they need to to gather food and to behave as they would normally like would be detrimental to them and any other changelings relying on them.

You also have to assume that they were not raised elsewhere then Equestria where they would have different luxuries, games, art and sport to enjoy and grow familiar with as they grow up. Sure they could be raised secretly in Equestria but children would be a liability to a changeling's cover not to mention far riskier for the children themselves as if their cover were blown the reaction probably isn't going to be very nice. Logically you would want them else where which means a different environment they are going to call home and others spending a prolonged amount of time raising them who would likely do the same. Over the generations a separate society is inevitably going to develop from that even if they end up adopting elements of Equestrian society... or other societies they go undercover in.

As for your suggestion they lack material wealth who is to say they were risking everything in that assault? Maybe that was just the first wave covertly sent in to take the capital while reserves waited to move in. And why do you think they would need weapons, cloths or armour? They seemed to be taking down then royal guard just fine without and if they have the natural abilities to make do without such things would be a burden rather then an asset, especially if their ability to shape shift can't cover such things up. Additionally killing potential sources of food would seem to contradict their goals so in such a situation why would they use the crude and distinctly lethal weapons of Equestria's day and age.

Yes, true they could meet other changelings in the field, I even suggested they might deliberately move in small groups to help each other. However those are going to be colleges, not necessarily close friends or family they would feel comfortable discussing their feelings with, not to mention the lack of guaranteed safe places to take the time to discus such things.

As for their loyalty, you say we never see changelings disobey the Queen? Well who would the Queen be giving orders to in the middle of an invasion or military operation (the only two places we have seen them so far)? They are going to be soldiers with at least a rudimentary level of discipline and an understanding that sometimes they are going to be given orders they might not like. Who's to say back home there aren't protests against the invasion even if they are a minority?

5099587 Which is why I usually picture them with some ability to store up love magic, either as some equivalent to fat or a crystal or goo they can preserve it in externally. Also, I quite enjoyed the cultural comparison (even if I think I might butcher those names trying to say them ) I can certainly understand the point of view. Winston Churchill was a fantastic war time leader... but he was a pretty brutal and uncompromising man in peace time. I can also see how many might subconsciously oppose the idea given what a great job George Washington did with setting up America after his revolution.

5099653 Well that's just it. You can't be an expert everywhere. So you make do sometimes.

5099653
>>And again you are make certain assumptions about the changelings. Such as that they require an extended period of time out in the field to collect a sufficient amount of love to survive, that they can't build up store of love to last them a while without contact with others or don't have a closer family they would want to return to at the end of the day. However to say otherwise is equally an assumption as there isn't really any canon evidence one way or the other and they thus don't really support either of us.
works against the way love is given,
love needs to be earned, and it takes time to learn a ponies mannerisms even if you assume muscle memory works fine, actually being a person is not so easy, so you are wrong.

I don't feel up to responding to these walls of ignorance however.

5102924 Again, I would appreciate it if you did not stoop so low as passing out insults. Can't we be civil about this disagreement? After all, its rather arrogant of you to claim you know best about all just as it would be if I did the same. I would rather hear what you have to say and figure out if I'm actually wrong.

As for your point, if love is as potent a source of love as I suggest, then while a few days would be needed to familiarise yourself with the target then only a short stay in their proximity would be sufficient. Additionally if the infiltrator is lacking confidence in their acting ability they could fain extenuating circumstances like illness that would firstly cover any slip ups in behaviour as a symptom, prevent them from having to go to work and ensure the loved one is dotting on them more frequently.

There's a neither of us have considered thus far and that is what if the changelings don't necessarily need to impersonate someone to get love? What if they can simply absorb it passively from their surroundings? Sure it would likely yield lower amounts of food but it would mean all the changeling would have to do is pretend to be an anonymous bystander, little acting skills or target research required.

5103105
>> herp Again, I would appreciate it if you did not stoop so low as passing out insults. Can't we be civil about this disagreement? After all, its rather arrogant of you to claim you know best about all just as it would be if I did the same. I would rather hear what you have to say and figure out if I'm actually wrong.
See, that would require you to actually listen to what I'm saying instead of inventing contrived excuses for why you aren't wrong. Stuff like the awful arguements made in your post, the ones that don't consider the ramifications of leaving in a day and alerting the ponies to their abscence when they check out the next day.

Your post also relies on a pretty stupid assumption, thankfully you correct yourself in the second arguement, but thats the very arguement I've already started from. Changelings don't need a ponies consent to feed on love. However, if you want to remain hidden and not damage your crop yield. you can and fucking will take your food in slowly so that ponies don't notice you are doing it, but fast enough that your hive doesn't starve. The more suspicious a town is because someone is gathering love and splitting the less love you can gather. Gathering love is slow, but you do need acting skills. You don't have to replace someone long enough to drain someone dry, you need to replace someone so you can live their life long term. It's not like you can show up as a new pony.

5104425 Well to be honest it feels like it's you who aren't listening to me. Sorry if I've made you feel like I'm not acknowledging what your saying but I'm not actually arguing that your wrong, just that there valid alternative ways to explain things and why I don't agree with your way of putting things.

That and I don't appreciate being called an idiot simply because you don't like my explanations for world building. If they are really so contrived why don't you point out the floors in my reasoning rather then insulting me and hoping that somehow shows me the error of my ways?

And this is where you make me feel like you aren't completely reading what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting that they should just stick to a pony long enough to drain them dry then skip town, I'm suggesting that they don't need to stay long because Love is a powerful enough source of energy that they don't need to. A day of gathering could easily yield enough to last a couple of changelings a month or so. Yes you could say this is an assumption on my part but given the display put on by Cadence and Shining at their wedding I would say it's a pretty sound idea that even a little love could be fairly nourishing.

To compound my idea it is fairly likely that they don't consume love alone. Changelings do seem to have physical bodies so would logically need physical substance to maintain themselves (unless you want to play the angle the changelings are more like the less corporal fae of folk lore, I've seen it done well before). Love is just a part of their diet like sugars or carbohydrates are to us lessening the hypothetical demands of their need for love.

5102924 What ignorance dude? You claim to know how magic works. Queen Chrysalis showed that love doesn't have to be earned in order to be taken and fed on.

Allow me to say a few things you might not know of. Greece in its beginnings was extremely poor. So poor that pretty much the amount of Greeks currently dwelling in Greece has a similar number spread around the globe. This is called the Greek "Diaspora". However we Greeks have a common point of having a civilization so great and so vast that it made an impression upon many. Some would even say it triggered the Renaissance.

The point is that what keeps people united is their common heritage. Heritage that despite the effects of globalisation cannot so easily swallow cultures and merge them together. Even if such a thing was to happen between changelings and ponies it would take centuries nay thousands of years depending on the lifespan of a single generation.

Hell to even forget the mutual hate of war would take approximately two generations.

You say you claim to know how civilizations work yet I have showed you that through historical evidence what binds together people. Heck the Greeks survived 400 years without their own independence and still maintain their culture as a whole. Do you think that pony society is going to be so oppressive that it's not going to allow changelings to practice their rituals? Their ceremonies? Their religion or whatever is there?

Don't you think that with the last season of mlp it's made abundantly clear that pony society encourages uniqueness? And why not have the changelings make their own homes? Their own architecture? I've seen eastern people make their homes and neighborhoods distinguishable in America.

I think you are profoundly wrong about this. I don't want to repeat myself with examples both irl and in show canon.
5103105 May I also take note that in the comics it is implied that the changelings can be fed love somehow or by some substitute? Or that they can go to hibernation should there not be enough love?

See what bothers me most is the fact that there is creative patronising here.

Anything goes.