7294984

it's fair to say that at least 70% of the country wants her locked back in the Sun.

I think maybe it should be a more even split in the general population, and rather it's just that those opposed are the most actively vocal making them seem more numerous. Really, the majority of ponies should be at least tentatively neutral, if perhaps easily swayed by centuries of ingrained taboos into mob mentality by the highly vocal opposition faction.

There should certainly be anti-Celestia advocates organizing protests, especially in Canterlot, but if it was really a nationwide 70% majority opposition among the general public there would more likely be rioting.

7295012
Fair enough. She's gonna play a major role in helping to stop Discord, so she'll get a bit of good will out of that. The main thing being that there's no one in the populace who's really gung-ho about her being back, while there are quite a few who are gung-ho about wanting her gone.

7295021
Yeah, I'd agree there wouldn't really be a pro-Celestia camp, but there would probably be a pro-Luna camp who wouldn't so much advocate on Celestia's behalf as they'd be of opinion that Luna must know what she doing and if the Princess says she wants to forgive her sister they are at least willing to give it a cautious chance.

7295021

Honestly, I think it makes more sense to have about a 2/3 majority against Celestia and a 1/3 neutral (or willing to be pro-Celestia on the grounds that Luna is and they trust her). If it's too evenly split then it's harder to justify why Luna hasn't just reinstated Celestia yet. But public discontent provides a reason for why Celestia's redemption will take time.

(I'm also not sure how much credit Celesta would get for stopping Discord, since her minions are the reason why Discord needed stopping in the first place. 'Sure, I empowered minions who released a demon and almost got you all killed, but then I stopped the demon at the last minute' wouldn't be all that comforting to many.')

7295061

I think it makes more sense to have about a 2/3 majority against Celestia and a 1/3 neutral

No, if anything it needs to be the other way around. It's always the people with the strongest opinions who have the loudest voices and are often able to stir up at least passive support form those who are otherwise undecided on the issue. If the anti-Celestia sentiment was so wide spread amongst the general public as to make a two thirds super majority there would be no discussion at all, especially if the remaining third is only neutral with no meaningful pro-Celestia advocates to voice a contrary opinion. Locking her up would be a forgone necessity just to prevent rioting in the streets.

7295152

Of course there'd be discussion so long as Luna wanted Celestia restored. But a public majority/supermajority against restoring her helps explain why Luna doesn't just decree that it's so.

Luna has near total governmental authority. At the Grand Galloping Gala indicated that Luna even has the power to just fire the entire Night Court and replace them with other ponies if she thinks it necessary. So if we want it to take a full season for Celestia to be restored to power or redeemed, we need more of an obstacle than just 'some courtiers don't like her' since those courtiers could be turfed if Luna cared enough (and on this issue, Luna would care a lot). Without such an obstacle it becomes a plot hole that Luna isn't just saying, "Celestia is co-princess again, period;" there's no reason for her not to do it. So I think we do need public sentiment to be against Celestia.

7295199
Luna does still have her innate fear of being seen as a tyrannical ruler and as much as she might be trying to push for Celestia to be co-Princess again, she'd know better than to simply force the issue and threaten to terminate the Night Court if they don't support her. As well, making Celestia a diarch again doesn't do much good if no one will go to Celestia because they hate and/or fear her. That's literally what started this mess in the first place and also what nearly drove Lunaverse-Luna into becoming Nightmare Moon. So she'd want to have the common pony accept Celestia again. She just might be going a bit overboard with it, transparently so, and trying to move things along too quickly without really giving Equestria, the Night Court, or even Celestia herself a chance to stop and process and digest this new paradigm.

As well, when she threatened to disband the Night Court it was in the heat of the moment after having had all or at least a huge chunk of their sins laid out before her. In theory had she acted then she would have been doing so "while the iron is hot", with the Night Court's failure to provide for Ponyville providing an immediate justification that then opens up the door to pointing to all their past failures. However with what actually happened, she delivered an extraordinarily strong rebuke of the Night Court. While the precise, exact wording might not be known, Equestria is certainly aware of the fact that the Night Court Screwed Up and subsequently has been undergoing a lot of internal changes, including many courtiers entering early retirement and being replaced.

If Luna were to try and force the issue of Celestia's coronation, and the Night Court raised serious objections and opposition to it with a long train of reasons behind it, it wouldn't likely be seen as the Night Court falling into its old tricks again, it would be seen as them genuinely acting in the best interests of Equestria when the Princess is clearly letting family concerns get in the way of good governance...because that is, in fact, exactly what Luna is doing. Even if Luna were to bring out old evidence now of past wrongdoings as a justification to replace the Night Court, it would be seen as petty mudslinging on her part no matter how true the wrongdoings were.

7295152
That all being said, riots is probably a little far-fetched, or at least I hope to construct things so that rioting would be seen as such. Protests, sure, but not riots.

7295278
I don't want there to be riots either. That's why I think we need to be careful not to overplay the anti-Celestia sentiment, to make it clear that most ponies fall somewhere in the middle ground between the two extremes of, "Luna is Right, reinstate Celestia with full authority," -vs- "Corona can never be forgiven, lock her up and throw away the key."

Now, having said that, if only present those two options, then yeah, something like your original idea of a 30/70 split might be the result, and indeed maybe someling... err, rather somepony intentionally trying to stir up public resentment might conduct exactly that poll with only those two options to make it seem like anti-Celetia resentment is both more wide spread and more deeply rooted than it actually is. Whereas the realty might be more like 23.1% lock her up, 7.7% let Luna reinstate her, but the overwhelming majority of 69.2% aren't sure what to do and would rather find a compromise.

After all, compromise is our end goal here, a slow reintegration of Celestia into position where she can earn back trust and eventually be reinstated over a multiple years, if not decades, period of time. That only works, however, if the majority are at least willing to give her a chance.

7295348

• There is no such thing as changelings. Any changelings who may or may not have been encountered are merely the products of fanciful imaginations

7295361
Exactly! Please forgive my typo.

7294984

Is Season 3 going to be the season of the Changeling then? I know we've had some discussion previously about the infiltration and invasion would go down, do we need to get things down a bit more in the same was as it was decided what should happen in each season of season 2?

7295394
Yeah, it's supposed to be the changeling invasion. The end-goal of the changelings is taking over Cavallia without anyone knowing. I don't think I'll have anything as "tight" as in Season 2, though.

7295348

7295278

I guess in terms of percentages I would see it as:

30% broadly agree with the proposition "Celestia should not be treated punitively but should be forgiven and restored to power over some period of time"
A small minority within that 30% would agree with Luna's idea, "Celestia should be immediately put back on the throne"
70% broadly agree with the proposition "Celestia should not be restored to power but should be subjected to some kind of punishment or penance for her actions"
A small minority within that 70% would agree with the hardline idea, "Celestia should be subjected to the maximum punishment allowable by law, such as permanent exile to Tartarus or the sun, for her crimes"

(And as Emerald says, if the only two poll options were 'immediate forgiveness' or 'eternal jail/exile', then the breakdown would probably also be 30/70. But if more options were allowed, those two options would both be fringe compared to the more general 'some kind of punishment' and 'some kind of forgiveness' options.)

So there's not a whole lot of ponies who would be demanding Celestia's head on a pike or her to be exiled forever, but there's enough opposing Luna's 'just toss her back on the throne and it'll be like she never left!' idea that she can't just force it through.

7295895

but there's enough opposing Luna's 'just toss her back on the throne and it'll be like she never left!' idea that she can't just force it through.

I can actually agree with this in the broadest strokes. Where I disagree is how much opposition there needs to be for it to be "enough" to convince Luna not to force the issue. As RDD pointed, Luna is supposed to be a pony that is very aware of her own faults and very much afraid of abusing her power. Most importantly of all, however, Luna is a fundamentally good pony who wants to do the right thing.

There doesn't need to be an anti-Celestia majority, let alone a two-thirds or more super majority. If there were anywhere near that many ponies in opposition, especially ponies opposed enough to engage in active protesting, Luna wouldn't need anypony else to tell her blanket reinstating Celestia would be a bad idea, she'd plainly see the writing on the wall for herself and give up without any fight at all, especially if the other side of the debate can't muster any actual endorsement for reinstating Celestia, but just a tacit acquiescence to Luna's authority.

7295957

Luna is aware of her own faults and doesn't want to abuse her power, but she also deeply loves her sister and isn't going to give up without a fight. Without a majority of the public opposed I think she'd do it out of love, and worry if that makes her tyrannical later.

If there's a majority or supermajority opposed, though, that's enough to block her from doing it right away, and then the season can have as an occasional plot line Luna or Trixie doing things to try to win popular support for the 'redeem Celestia' idea.

7294984
Hmm, I like the idea of Trixie doing a tour of her new lands, and I could see a couple of her friends coming along as escorts (although it might also be an excuse for them to go on a vacation). I could do a brief revisit to Oaton in that case (even if it's not on the lands Trixie gets), and then see about working out some kind of conflict to happen on the road. Hey RDD, do you have a map or something of the territory Trixie is going to be in charge of?

7299762
I do! ...somewhere...hang on.

Blargle. It was in this thread, but the map’s gone thanks to tinypic.com going under. I can get a copy from my computer at some point tomorrow, though.

7299771
Cool. Just thinking of a kind of lighthearted comedy roadtrip kind of thing to be a counterpoint to the ungodly long adventure fics I've already done, and the map will be handy to plan out the group's route.

7299771

That's good. I am about to write a few chapters where Cheerilee, Spike, and Zecora go globe trotting around the world in my latest story, Eternal Night. In each area, they have to have to find a rare ingredient for a special potion. Any suggestions for interesting places they could visit?

7299785
Somehow, I'm thinking that you'll even manage to turn a short comedy roadtrip story into an epic.

7299785
Here we go.

Thoughts:

• The dark roads are meant to be railways. The lighter lines are normal overland roads.
• I think of Chafron and Crinet as mining towns. No idea what Pastern could be. Cobton is logging of Firwood Forest
• Hoofington is the largest settlement in the region, followed by Ponyville and then Bridleton. The three of them are broadly similar in temperment in that all three of them tend to react to Everfree monsters as "Hmm, someone should do something about that." All three are farming communities
• There are other smaller villages and hamlets not shown on the map.
• I have no real sense of scale for the region...but it's been fairly consistent that Ponyville is two hours from Canterlot by train. Assuming a train running at a top speed of 88 mph (GREAT SCOTT!), that would be about 176 miles.

7300239

That's a pretty big territory, easily around the size of Washington State. I suppose that feels big, but for what Equestria is, that might be reasonable for a province. I don't really know how large a territory nobles in medieval times usually oversaw. Still, that does mean that Trixie and co. will have to be traveling via train or similarly swift means, since doing this on hoof, at least in full, would make the trip take months. Of course some of those towns they'll still have to hoof it to, since they don't have a rail line. Might be a plot point the idea of getting rail lines extended to all of the towns.

I'm thinking part of this story is largely going to be Trixie and co. finding situations that they think are epic problems in the making, but keep turning out to be non-issues. Like after the situation with Celestia last Season being resolved, the girls are a bit jumpy and are so used to seeing plots, monsters, or crisis' that it's taking them a bit to sort of stand down from 'Defcon 1' mode. Then it's mostly about learning to recognize and deal with far more mundane problems that might actually be affecting the region; economic or social things.

7300384
Washington state would be MUCH larger than I had intended it to be...the two-hour train ride from Ponyville to Canterlot was based on how long it usually takes me to get from Worcester to Boston in Massachusetts via train, although apparently I was vastly overestimating the speed of the train, or how much lag time the various stops cause. Looking into it a Google search reveals that the distance between Worcester and Boston is apparently only 47 miles. Further research reveals that the commuter rail only tends to max out at 60 miles per hour.

It'd also be huge by Medieval fiefdom standards. Washington State is about 1/3rd the size of France. A single noble controlling that much of France...that's literally how the Hundred Years' War started, when Eleanor of Aquitaine inherited about a third of France and then married the King of England, giving the English crown claim to vast tracts of land in France. Even though Equestria is larger than France (I've pegged Equestria as about the size of the US east of the Mississippi, which would be a bit more than a million square miles, about four times the size of France), but controlling a region the size of Washington state would be gigantic all the same.

Yeah, let's shrink what I previously said and peg the distance between Ponyville and Canterlot as more like 50-60 miles.

What can you tell me about Deep Lake? It caught my eye. Any reason it's called that?

7300423
That's a much more manageable size, and means the trip can take place over the course of a week or two instead of several months. Doesn't look like there's an easy loop route that the girls could take to hit everyplace, so they'll have to choose north or south first, then double back. Probably start with south since there's just two towns there to visit, so those can be knocked out fast, then double back to the north ending in Chafron. Out of curiosity, how far is Oaton from here? I recall I think I said it was somewhere south-ish of Ponyville? Far enough that Bushel trekking to Ponyville on hoof was impressive, but not outright unrealistic.

7300450
It sounded nice. It’s probably pretty deep, though the name could be ironic too. Haven’t put any more thought into it than that.

7300466

It has given me a few ideas. It has a rare algae that Zecora needs for a potion. Only for the group to discover that a Kraken lives in the lake. Why is there a Kraken in the lake? Well, the rare animal protection society moved it there for special treatment and it was the largest and deepest lake in the area they could find. Naturally, Fluttershy is helping out and clears up any confusion after the heroes scare the Kraken.

7300384
7300423

Stuff I've seen suggests that a horse can travel somewhere between 20 to 40 miles a day without getting exhausted, assuming ponies can mange about the same and aren't scaled down I made Nulpar about 100 miles east to west and North to South although as the territory is very mountainous your average non winged pony probably can't manage more than about 10 miles in a day in most locations.

Could I get some details about Puissance and her family? She's a major player in the fic I'm writing (Eternal Night), and I need a few details so I can reference and name drop them. This story is going to give her some major character development. She probably won't end up a likable person, but you will understand her a bit more as a person.

7311137

She's got 8 kids (I think), loads of grandkids and a great grandkid who she seems to be the closest to (she hasn't had time to drive him away yet). You could come up with as many as you want outside of anything like canon. Probably the best story to read for her family relationships is Grassandclouds2 'For the Mare Who has everything'.

She had two husbands, in my own non official headcanon at the same time (poly relationships being accepted, although rare in Equestria) who I called Midas and Flashing Posey (Fragrants grand uncle). Both are dead and she loved them very much although her relationship soured somewhat with Midas after Flashing died relatively early. My idea's mostly appear here

7300423
A bit late to this conversation, but on the subject of the two hour train ride from Ponyville to Canterlot, is that the time to reach the base of the mountain or the city proper. If the latter than than the train would probably have to wind it's way around the mountain a few times and possibly slow down considerably to avoid derailing of the cliffedge turns. That could further shrink the direct line distance between the two locations.

7311155
I'm pretty sure Puissance having had two husbands is officially Lunaverse canon, certainly I wrote it as such during her cameos in Elements of Insanity. Having had them simultaneously might still be a matter of head-canon, but it's nothing I'd object to. Although in addition to being rare, I feel such polyamorous relationships must be fully mutual in regards to all parties involved. It shouldn't just be one pony married to two or more other ponies, but all three or more ponies equally married to each other. Meaning if Puissance was married to them both at the same time, they should also have been husbands to each other as well.

Having just read the chapter you linked, (seriously how did I miss even knowing about it until today?), the only thing I might prefer to see in a canon version would be for Puissance to have originally been married to only one of the two before adding the second at a later date. That way she could still have had two weddings.

7311137
So in addition to whatever else has been mentioned recently, while I don't think we ever canonized the character, I know a concept for one of Puissance's children had been previously discussed on this form. The Marquise Red Reign (formerly Reign Regalia), who would have once been among Puissance's most favored heirs and presumed to next in line for the vicereinship before falling out of favor and being disowned entirely. She acquired her current title and name after marrying the lord of an isolated semi-autonomous island off the cost of Equestria, her husband "dying" under mysterious circumstances shortly thereafter. She has a fearsome reputation (her new name meant to invoke the image of bloodthirst tyrant), but in reality it's all part of ruse the rulers of the island have maintained for generations to ward off pirates and other miscreants under threat of supposedly brutal retribution. While outwardly stern and unyielding, in truth she is a very fair and compassionate pony, as was her former husband before her who is actually retired and living a quiet life of anonymity.

She was conceived as a sort of inversion of the type of political villains that used to be prominent in the Nightcourt, someone the L6 would initially mistrust before becoming an ally. Her color based name was meant to go along with the likes of Blue Blood and Green Grass, while her false reputation drew inspiration from the Dread Pirate Roberts of the Princess Bride. Although as the ruler of her own micro province, she could maybe be summoned up as, what if Doctor Doom, but actually a secret hero.

7311497
...so Doctor Doom.

7311542

7311542

After all Doom knows that Doom is the real hero of any story, it is Richards! 😤 who is the real villain.

7311497

Certainly Puissance and her husbands all loved each other. I like having the three of them all getting married together, although she might have had a number of ceremonies just to really lord it over everypony, maybe one in her home province once in the province of each of the husbands and one in Canterlot. Possibly with a regular renewal of the vows.

7311580 7311618
I mean, we joke, but one can say “Reed Richards is the greatest threat to Earth-616 in Marvel Comics”, and most counter-arguments would consist of things like “hey, Abraxas is way bigger a threat!” and not, y’know, “no way, he’s a hero!”

We’re talking about a guy who built a device to go to look at other universe. What should have just been like a hovering camcorder. And instead it managed to gain sentience and kill an entire universe.

7311497

She was conceived as a sort of inversion of the type of political villains that used to be prominent in the Nightcourt, someone the L6 would initially mistrust before becoming an ally. Her color based name was meant to go along with the likes of Blue Blood and Green Grass, while her false reputation drew inspiration from the Dread Pirate Roberts of the Princess Bride. Although as the ruler of her own micro province, she could maybe be summoned up as, what if Doctor Doom, but actually a secret hero.

Actually, Puissance almost is Doctor Doom in the Rangerverse. She's basically an evil Trixie in many ways. They don't hate each other though. Puissance thinks Trixie is too beneath her to care about our hero.

What is the name of Flicker's grandparents? I can't find it anywhere. Flicker is Puissance's great-grandson, correct? I'm trying to get everyone's names right.

7322852
Great-grandson, yes, but I'm not entirely sure if we know the names of his grandparents (Puissance's kids). You can feel free to make them if you want. The theme for her kids is being named after items or accoutrements of royalty. The only two I remember off the top of my head are her son Banner and her daughter Regalia.

7323736

I created a rough draft for Puissance's family tree. What do you think? Add anything you like. I'm open to any ideas. I used Family Echo to create this.

7324404

Impressive!

I don't think we need to know everything in that level of depth. It's probably better to keep enough blank spaces so extra family member can be added as needed.

Although if you want to fit my non-canon story maybe switch the children from Midas and Flashing as Flashing died earlier than Midas, also Puissance never treated any of her children as being fathered by one or the other of her husband, she always considered them to be the children of both so her version of the family tree might look rather different.

7324404
I’ve got no problems, though one of her sons needs to be renamed “Banner” if you want to keep with Lunaverse canon.

7324404
Wait, is that the same "Regalia" I mentioned as hypothetical disowned child of Puissance, or did I miss something from another story that established a different character by that name? If so, then no problem, that's the nature of a shared continuity and so if I were to ever get around to writing a story about the Marquise Red I'd just have to come up with a new name for her.

If they are meant to be the same, however, I'm not sure she should have any kids, especially not Light Speed, who Puissance is otherwise supposed to have had a relatively good relationship with prior to the issue over her hanging out with the wrong kind of friends.

7324404
That is impressive work.

7324669
She's one of the daughters mentioned in For the Mare Who Has Everything by GrassAndClouds2. And she was also mentioned with praise and it looks like they were on pretty good terms. From what I understand, that story is semi-canon. You can keep Regalia if you want, or you could always use another sibling? Purple Prose? No one would expect her to be a bad guy.

7324485
Good idea. I kinda figured one husband would have more children than the other.

7324579
Do you mind if I post the finished version on the Bible thread? It might be nice to have all these names sorted out for later, and we can always add to it.

7325126
Thanks. I don't know why I put this much work into it, but I like having details straight. Besides, things like this are great for giving ideas!

Draft 2

7325134

She's one of the daughters mentioned in For the Mare Who Has Everything by GrassAndClouds2.

That would certainly explain why I was unaware of it.

Anyway, like I said, those are just the realities of a shared continuity... first come, first serve. Besides, it's not like I had any immediate plans for a story involving her. I wouldn't have even made a fuss at all if I hadn't revisited the topic of that character concept just earlier up in this same thread. I just wish someone would have pointed it out to me sooner, so I could feel less the fool.

7325134
I’m okay with posting this in the Bible thread, sure.

7325134

Are we going to go with there being a pony called Daughter of Champion?

I know some people end up sharing their parents name usually with a Jr on the end (although it seems to be more of an American than British thing) but that just seems needlessly crule to the poor filly.

7325228

Yes, that's right. Her name is also Champion, except its spelled Championne because her father had a thing for Phench. The poor filly is named after her father. Why do you think she named her daughter, Unknown?

7325593

Makes sense, of course who knew that Husband and Wife were the two most common pony names as well.

7325613

Do you think I should fill those in as well, or should I leave them blank for someone else to fill?