So, in the mental haze of sleep deprivation I had this idea which turned into kind of a vague pseudo-theory that I've been thinking about for a couple of hours now. However I don't want to talk much about that for now since I don't want to influence any discussion this thread might inspire.

So for now, my only question is: What kind of characters would make up an ideal team of super-heroes? And I don't mean specific examples like: "Have Batman, Spiderman and Wolverine on the same team." I don't mind that kind of discussion because it's fun stuff to talk about, but in this case I'm referring to, like, general character archetypes and team dynamics.

Basically, what type of heroes do you think are needed to make up a good team? Also, on a related note: Is there an ideal number of members?

6620378
Well for one different sets of powers that can work off of each other for effective problem solving and combat

6620378
Hmm. Interesting question to ask, and for me to ponder, as I'm a big fan of both DC and Marvel. Justice League, Avengers, I love them both.

In regard to what types of heroes you need to have to make a good team: I think you need a little bit of everything. A smart hero to help plan things out, a strong hero (or two or so) to act as muscle, a hero who's the team conscience/heart, and maybe someone a bit on the fringe of the group as well. You can mix any number of these types together (Justice League has Superman who is both powerhouse and moral center, and Wonder Woman as well - Batman is both team strategist and outsider) as you please...

Is there an ideal number of members?

Probably no more than seven, is what I'd think. I actually think some of the best superhero team lineups usually have an odd number of characters in them; mainly what comes to my mind is when people refer to the Justice League as "The Big Seven" of the DC Universe. Trinities are also very important numbers too, even if they almost never make up the entirety of the group (ex. Avengers has Cap, Thor, Iron Man; Justice League has Supes, Batman and WW) the number still plays a very important role there.

6620378 Well, in a story conflict is important and internal conflict can be important. Sure the heroes want to save the world but they won't always agree on the best way to do it, and that is fine. Now they don't have to be at each other's throats (that would kind of make us question why they are working together) but there should be some sort of internal conflict. Do superman and batman agree 100% of the time on how to apprehend villains. No and they shouldn't. They are two different characters who were born, raised and function differently.

However, at the same time they should have some common ground.

For example you could have two heroes that want to protect the city, however one might believe that every villain has the chance for redemption while the other hero might function more on the lines of: punch in face, ask questions later. This could cause some internal conflict. Perhaps during one of their battles with a villain, the hero who believes in forgiveness is discouraged by the fact that the villain won't change his ways, yet the punchy hero encourages them saying that they (the other hero) shouldn't stop trying to help the villains achieve redemption.

I guess what I am trying to say is that a good superhero team isn't super because of the team but because of the characters, their ideals and their struggles to uphold those ideals. When you have a team that agrees upon everything, the characters go beat the bad guys and their is no individuality then you have a pretty boring team.

I'm not sure if that helps. I wrote this all down just after drinking a large cup of coffee.

For starters, there's no REAL limit to the heroes. Look at the justice league and the avengers, they have a lot of heroes working together and it works. The only issue is making sure to give each hero equal attention and plot relevance, which can be an issue. Generally, I'd say 4-6 is a good set, but if you're doing the pone stories a trio of the tribe types could work too.

As for what they should be like? Similar enough to willingly work together, but different enough so they aren't all the same guy. (Unless one can duplicate himself). There doesn't need to be a clear leader either. Set up situations so each member can carry the others in times of need.

Let's turn to the recent sonic mania for a good example. Each playable character has the basic moveset of run, jump, spin, etc, but each one has traits that make them different. Each has a different personality too, but they are United against a common foe.

So the best superhero team isn't something everyone can agree on, similar to who is best pony. Find out what YOU are good at writing, and that's your ideal team.

-Ashfur wuz here

6620378
Basically characters who's personalities tend to interact with each other in compelling ways, with powers that can play off each other as a small but nice bonus.

6620378 For numbers, it can be however many characters you want/think you can handle. Common team numbers I've seen are 2 (duos like Batman and Robin), 3 (DC's Trinity of Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman is a great example, as are the Three Musketeers and Kirk/Spock/McCoy), 5 (classic 5-Man Band like the animated Teen Titans), and 7 (The DCAU's initial Justice League lineup, MCU! Avengers, Mane 6+Spike/Sunset/Starlight). Stars small, then add members as the need arises.

For dynamics, powerwise it's good to have the characters have something that makes them stand out/make up for weaknesses of their teammates. Superman and Wonder Woman have similar powers, but where Supes has a variety of alien powers like heat vision and such Diana has better combat skills and magic weapons (Superman has no magical defenses).

Hope that helps get you started.

6620378
Internal conflict tempered by necessity. Small factions within the group that are closer than the others and some that are flat out untrusting of others.

6620384

Well for one different sets of powers that can work off of each other for effective problem solving and combat

Right, but more specifically, which lineup of power sets would you say would be the most effective?

(Oh, and just to be clear, I'm talking about this from a storytelling perspective. So it's not just about making a team who can beat anything - it's also about having an interesting team that can be used to tell good stories.)

In regard to what types of heroes you need to have to make a good team: I think you need a little bit of everything. A smart hero to help plan things out, a strong hero (or two or so) to act as muscle, a hero who's the team conscience/heart, and maybe someone a bit on the fringe of the group as well. You can mix any number of these types together (Justice League has Superman who is both powerhouse and moral center, and Wonder Woman as well - Batman is both team strategist and outsider) as you please...

Do you have a preferred approach to that sort of distribution of traits? Like, do you think having Superman be both the moral heart of the group and the most powerful member is an advantage or disadvantage? Would it work better if it was more of a specialized role? And when you have someone hyper-competent like Batman, is it advantageous for them to be less powerful than the other members?

Thinking about it, Marvel does do it kinda differently with the Avengers: Iron Man is probably the smartest (if not the one with the best judgement), while also being fairly powerful thanks to his suits. Captain America meanwhile is probably the heart, in the sense that he's the most idealistic one, while also being the best tactician. Etc.

I actually think some of the best superhero team lineups usually have an odd number of characters in them;

Interesting observation. Do you think that means anything, though? Like, is there something about odd numbers that make for better teams or is it just coincidence?

I do understand trios, what with the Rule of Threes, the Power Trio trope and so on: Three is the lowest number you need to create a pattern and, if you think about it, sorta the lowest number required to even form a proper "team." Not sure I see the significance of say, seven, though.

(And hey, there's the Fantastic Four. That's an even number.)

6620390

Well, that's insightful and I generally agree, though it's much more general than what I was going for with this.

I'm really asking more about the roles the characters play in the team. Mainly this would refer to what the individual hero can actually do that the others are perhaps less adept at, like how Batman is a ninja who is also super-smart and the best detective in the world.

It can involve personality and character traits as well, of course, but I'm honestly less interested in that since I find that stuff easy to play around with and it's not directly related to what I've been thinking about.

For starters, there's no REAL limit to the heroes. Look at the justice league and the avengers, they have a lot of heroes working together and it works. The only issue is making sure to give each hero equal attention and plot relevance, which can be an issue.

That's the real trick, though, isn't it? More characters makes it harder for the writer to keep them all relevant and give them valid roles, characterization and development. By extension it also gives the readers more characters to keep track of and having to care about.

That's pretty much what I meant about "ideal number." Note that to some degree, this factors into what the character is actually able to do as a hero: If you want to restrict the team to a low number, as an example, you may need to give them more varied powers and abilities. (In proportion to the scale and severity of whatever problem they need to solve, of course.)

Generally, I'd say 4-6 is a good set, but if you're doing the pone stories a trio of the tribe types could work too.

Can I just say that I've always found it kinda neat how the Mane Six are made up of two of each tribe?

So the best superhero team isn't something everyone can agree on,

Well, we don't really need to. I'm kinda just trying to do a sort of informal survey here.

If you imagine that you were to put together good superhero team, what would it look like? What kind of members do you think it would need?

A good and balanced team needs several roles filled. There really isn't an ideal number since people can fill multiple roles and it never hurts to have doubles. That is until you get to the point where they are too many to be a tight nit group. I'd say the minimum for a well balanced team is about 4 but it can be fewer if they are so well coordinated that they on't need a leader or they are adaptable and have several talents. You need to cover all your bases. A team needs, coordination, offence, defence and support.

There are a few archetypes/roles I feel need to be present to make a good team. Granted they are traits and can be combined with each other. Teams are endlessly variable after all. I like the four people fighting team with a tank, a heavy hitter, a support and one underhanded fighter. If they need to work outside of combat they need more character traits and preferably more people.

Leader, every team needs a leader. It doesn't have to be obvious and the leader need to fill at least one of the other roles. Be it fighter, mother hen, moral compass or even manipulator. Needs to be able to hold the respect of the rest of the team.

Brains/Strategist: You need one analyser and planner. An intelligent individual that stops the rest of them from rushing into things and works out the best way to handle any problem. Doesn't have to be the leader but it saves time and the leader should listen to "Brains"

Heavy: Sometimes you just need to use force, either to protect or create a path. Every team needs a heavy hitter. This should be a superhero that is hard to kill and preferably looks intimidating. Depending on the other team members this might be the main fighting power of the team. This guy often needs to put himself at risk and play strategic roles in any fight. Because of this he shouldn't be the leader unless there's more than one heavy.

Mother Hen: The team needs that one individual that keeps them from arguing to much or straying to far away from each other. This individual defines itself by the group and turns what would otherwise be a group of allies into a family.

Paladin: You need a moral compass for the group, one character that keeps the rest of the team honourable. Also tasked with chewing them out when they occasionally break from the ideals of the team. Easy to combine with the mother hen or leader but can be any role really.

Rebel: Every team needs one person that can bend the rules. Either this is simply the guy that sneaks behind enemy lines and assassinates key targets and executes defeated villains so they don't come back for revenge. Or the rebel is a full blown manipulator, lying and deceiving to keep the rest of the team together and fighting the right people. Should not be combined with the leader, for obvious reasons but can totally be the mother hen and paladin.

Face/Fixer: To be an effective team, you don't only have to be able to work together, you need to be able to work with the world around you. This character have either money, influence or charisma. Deals with most of the stuff that can't be solved with violence or face to face diplomacy. Where do the team stay, how do they get around? Who funds them and keeps them out of trouble with the authorities? Face takes care of that.

6620378

You need a Strong Guy, a Fast Guy, a Smart Guy, an Angry Guy, a Funny Guy, and a Girl.

You need at least one heroine in a skintight outfit.

Everything else is less important.

6620445
For the powers thing:
Tech/brains, Magic guy (if needed), The Heavy, Combat specialist, and Leader

For traits you need first the basic 3;
logic, good boy and bad boy. Adding on to that you may need the wise guy, edgy guy and serious guy. The other broader arch types can be added on depending on scale and seriousness

For team number: depends on scale to power to threat ratio.
Like for a city you may need no more then 2-5 for gangs or if the city is a focal point for some bigger magic/sifi thing later then you may want boost the power or add in some NPC after all not all super hero teams are all fighters some got tech boys PR boys or Feds
For a global thing 7 to 50 reffce Justice leghe ulimited but you may want to build up to that one

Also as to what traits and powers go to who. Dont be scared to get some repeats after all how they use the power makes thing intristing like one fire guy can make an inferno while another is short range high heat. Or the player types clash or flirts with one-another

6620378

Start with the premise that every superhero is a metaphor for some element of the human condition, as symbolized by their unique powers and the backstory by which they acquired them.

Then think about what combination of human conditions would create a theme you'd like to explore. There's your superhero team. The way in which you would develop that theme would suggest the plot of your story.

Just an idea.

6620378 The answer is simple. You need each superhero to have a different origin.

Consider the various types of supervillain out there. From mad tyrants to aliens to gods, they can come from anywhere and do whatever they want. You don't need to balance the actual powers of your superhero and figure out how they work together as a team, you need to have a variety of superhero origins.

You need at least one superhero who has a bit of a mythological background to them, because at some point in your superhero's history they're going to be attacked by some wizard using the ancient power of Hades or something and you need someone who can look at that and say 'yeah that looks about right, we should check in with Poseidon or something'.

You need a science superhero. You need a spiderman, Iron Man, or Reed Richards where science either went wrong or is the only thing holding them together. Science and superhero-ing are pretty intrinsically linked since the old days and most of your problems are going to involve science. Maybe that alien is weak to a super special type of nanovibration ray. How the buggery is your average Thor going to figure that out?

You need your superhero who just sort of became the best kind of regular dude. Maybe he does tactics or spying or is really charming or something, but he or she goes to the supermarket every week and knows what kind of brussel sprouts people buy. Maybe that can even be your science boy as well, like Spiderman.

You need at least one tragic edgy boi because a lot of supervillains are weak to people empathising with them. Typically like a second in command.

Magic superhero of course. He can probably hang out with the science guy because why not.

Basically, the powers are secondary. How they got them is going to make a significant difference regarding how they think and use them. This is why when comics and stuff change exactly how a character's power works, it only ruffles maybe a couple of feathers, but if a significant backstory element changes, everyone flips their shit. In a world where superpowers are as many and varied as there are colours in an art shop, it's how gents got them that makes a difference, and that's what any potential superhero employer should be checking on their application forms in my opinion.

6620542

I know you were being cheeky, but for my purposes that was actually not a bad answer.

6621193

Oh, I'm not trying to create a team for a story - at least not yet. I'm trying to get an idea of how a superhero team should be constructed so that I can compare the essential structure to something else.

In retrospect this would probably have gone smother if I'd just explained my whole idea, but oh well.

6621748

The answer is simple. You need each superhero to have a different origin.

Going by the rest of your post, I'm not sure origin is really the word you intended. It sounds more like you're talking about the general concept. I mean, being the "science guy" isn't really an origin.

I'm also a little bit confused about how you say the powers don't matter. Like, isn't "being the magic superhero" directly defined by the character having magic powers?

Still, probably the most helpful answer so far.

You need at least one superhero who has a bit of a mythological background to them, because at some point in your superhero's history they're going to be attacked by some wizard using the ancient power of Hades or something and you need someone who can look at that and say 'yeah that looks about right, we should check in with Poseidon or something'.

Magic superhero of course.

These two seem kinda interchangeable, in terms of the roles they would serve.

Basically, the powers are secondary. How they got them is going to make a significant difference regarding how they think and use them.

But isn't that pretty much why it matters what kind of powers they have in the first place?

Extreme example, but say we take Superman and Batman and switch their abilities, but they retain their personalities and motivations. That's kinda going to make a huge difference in how they operate, and also change the dynamic if they're on the same team. They'll actually be serving different purposes as team members due to their power sets, but they will also do so differently than the original versions.

6621784

As cheeky as I was being, my answer is grounded in an unfortunately common approach to building teams in media. Perhaps less so than it used to be, but you shouldn't need to look far for relevant examples.

6620378
I'm pretty sure that this answer hasn't been here yet (though I didn't fine comb the thread) but the one thing that wasn't mentioned?

The most important thing is the need for the team.

See, what you have to keep in mind is that a team must be far more than the sum of its parts. They need to be able to do things that a single member or even a two-person team-up couldn't do on their own. The team is there so that they can take on challenges where if it was just one of them they would face certain doom. That is the reason of diversity in teams. You got Thor to go head to head with the big guys, Iron Man to think of the technological solutions, Black Widow to sneak her way into the opponent's headquarters, and Captain America to bring them all together and form them in a coherent team. Keep just Thor and Iron-man there and they would lose for various reasons. Keep Cap and Black Widow and they would be overpowered. Keep Cap and Iron-man and they wouldn't have the means with which to bring their plans to completion.

Which of course also means that the team must also face an equally impressive threat that is just as much as important to have as the team. Which of course makes perfect sense. When you have a hero, you also need the antagonist. The basics don't change just because you buffed up the number.

6621784 'Magic superhero' meaning having an origin relating to magic. Maybe he's studied at Hogwarts. He doesn't even really need actual magic powers. Captain Britain isn't really a spellcaster, but his origin, and a lot of the stuff he does, relates to magic. Maybe that's different from mythology and stuff depending on whichever comic universe we're looking at, and maybe it's the same. But regardless, if you're making a team, you'll want to get different heroes of different origins so that they can pool their respective experiences and specialities together, because you never do know what kind of supervillain is going to show up: an alien that emerges from the space between atoms, or Anubis, or some guy who just threw together a bunch of explosives and is holding the city hostage.

Looking back at my answer, I do appear to have been 'flexible' with the term origin. Perhaps 'background' is a better fit here.

6620378
A team with interpersonal conflict.

6622154

As cheeky as I was being, my answer is grounded in an unfortunately common approach to building teams in media.

Which is a good point.

Essentially, your lineup here can be summed up as: Powerhouse, Speedster, Problem Solver, Berserker and Comedian/Trickster. (I'm omitting "girl" since any of the others could just as well be female.)

Now, do you have a theory as to why that configuration is common? That's what I'm asking here.

6622196

You got Thor to go head to head with the big guys, Iron Man to think of the technological solutions, Black Widow to sneak her way into the opponent's headquarters, and Captain America to bring them all together and form them in a coherent team.

So basically, your ideal team would be: Powerhouse, Problem Solver, Infiltrator and Leader?

Which of course also means that the team must also face an equally impressive threat that is just as much as important to have as the team. Which of course makes perfect sense. When you have a hero, you also need the antagonist. The basics don't change just because you buffed up the number.

Well, sure, that's a given.

6622247

Alright, so your team would be: Mythological Background, Scientific Background, Ideal Every-man Background, Dark/Tragic Background and Magical Background. (With the caveat that their powers are not as relevant as their field of expertise, if I understand you correctly.)

6622248

See, that's correct but also not what I'm asking about. This is specifically about team structure and archetypes/roles.

6622685 Yes, exactly.

Plus any other we can think of that fits a different area of expertise. 'Galactic lawman' is pretty popular. It's also probably fine if two of them have the same rough background, but there needs to be a wide variety of backgrounds available.

6622685
The ideal team would be one composed of the roles that are needed to overcome the trials that the antagonistic forces set upon them. While a team very much like the one I described would be enough against most general antagonistic forces of Marvel Universe (although a more dedicated magic guy would also not be amiss) they wouldn't necessarily be up to the task in different universes, though it is broad enough that it would be hard not to. There is a reason that the 2018 Avengers lineup is once again Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, She-Hulk, Ghost Rider, Doctor Strange, Black Panther, and Carol Danvers. You got the powerhouses (3-4), the tech guys (2), the magic guys (3), the leaders (2), and the stealthers (1-2), with most of them fulfilling multiple roles. It's a good GENERAL idea, which is also why you see the same basic lineup in RPG games as well (warriors, mages, rogues, clerics) since these are the broadest covering categories (more specific ones limit you, though those limits are what give more flavor).

6622685 Okay, admittedly my comment was a bit off from what you were originally asking.

What kind of characters would make up an ideal team of super-heroes?

Well if you mean, like, an air bender, a fire bender water bender, earth bender... or a shapeshifter, a metal controller, psychic, health regeneration, weather controller or whatever. It doesn't matter. It's like making up Pokemon teams. With a finite number of members, there will always be some OTHER combination that can specifically beat it, either by force, cunning or subterfuge. It's a concept called Cyclical Imbalance. There is no 'ideal team'.

Given that this was posted in the Writer's Group, I would think the more pertinent factor would be what would be what would be the ideal team to write a story about. Because even if you did somehow manage to have some ideal, unbeatable combination of flawless characters that got along perfectly, there would be no drama, and no conflict. And conflict is what drives the narrative. And without that, there's no story.

Part of what makes the Avengers so popular is that they don't get along perfectly, and they're not unbeatable. Their flaws are what make them interesting. Imagine if every Marvel movie protagonist (Iron Man, Spider Man, Thor, Wolverine etc) was replaced Thanos with the completed Infinity Gauntlet. And he just snapped his fingers to make every problem go away. That does not an interesting story make.

TL;DR
I know you're just asking about the Justice League equivalent of "best pokemon team", but this was the writing-relevant point I wanted to make.

6622685

Now, do you have a theory as to why that configuration is common? That's what I'm asking here.

I think 6622809 answered that pretty effectively. The team is going to need to overcome the trials placed before it by the Big Bad. Having only one trial would make for a pretty boring hero team story I suspect, so you'll want multiple trials as the villain shows their chops in countering the hero(es), but that means you'll want multiple heroes to counter the counters. You need the Powerhouse to show the strength of the heroes against strong opposition, the Speedster to get around strong challenges that can't be faced head-on, a Problem Solver for confrontations that have no obvious solutions, a Berserker who is helpful and can throw down like a Powerhouse, but who generates personal conflicts, and Comedian/Trickster to distract too focused enemies, hitting them from odd angles, and also keep the whole story from being too dark/morose.

Without the spread of character coverage, you have to put so much more work into making the challenges into things that an individual can overcome, without also overdoing that character's characterization. (Think about Batman trying to solo Loki instead of having the Avengers take him on.)

6622809

It's a good GENERAL idea, which is also why you see the same basic lineup in RPG games as well (warriors, mages, rogues, clerics)

Which is an interesting observation we should probably talk more about.

6622869

Well if you mean, like, an air bender, a fire bender water bender, earth bender... or a shapeshifter, a metal controller, psychic, health regeneration, weather controller or whatever. It doesn't matter. It's like making up Pokemon teams. With a finite number of members, there will always be some OTHER combination that can specifically beat it, either by force, cunning or subterfuge.

Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean having a team exclusively comprised of pikachus is a good idea. So I wouldn't say it doesn't matter at all.

Given that this was posted in the Writer's Group, I would think the more pertinent factor would be what would be what would be the ideal team to write a story about. Because even if you did somehow manage to have some ideal, unbeatable combination of flawless characters that got along perfectly, there would be no drama, and no conflict.

Ah, but that wasn't what I meant by "ideal." Sorry, words are tricky.

My "ideal team" wouldn't be unbeatable and flawless because I'm a writer and I like stuff like drama and conflict. If the team doesn't generate good storytelling it's hardly ideal for my purposes, is it?

Perhaps rather than "ideal" you can think of it as "typical" or "most balanced" or "having the right variety"?

6623527

(Think about Batman trying to solo Loki instead of having the Avengers take him on.)

...And now I really want to see Batman vs Loki.

6625679

Batman vs Loki

Loki: "My mother's name is Martha."

> They both hold each other and cry about their parents being dead.

6625679

Which is an interesting observation we should probably talk more about.

I put a few minutes thinking on it, and I came up with something interesting. When you make a team in an RPG game you're essentialy building a single character. The warrior is the shield and armor, the rogue is your weapon and eyes, the mage is your magic and mind, and the healer is your health and body. So, I'm thinking, doesn't this go into how more teams are made?

Here is the following idea then. Let's suppose I come up with a character who: Is magically powerful and knows almost everything, is beautiful and elegant, strong and honest, fast and proud, funny and friendly, and kind. Sounds like I'm trying to make a Mary Sue of sorts, doesn't it? But take that character apart in six pieces and you got the main six. Twilight, Rarity, AJ, RD, Pinkie, and Fluttershy.

So, maybe that is what a team could ideally be thought as. A single character whose traits are the members who make it complete.

6626284

Here is the following idea then. Let's suppose I come up with a character who: Is magically powerful and knows almost everything, is beautiful and elegant, strong and honest, fast and proud, funny and friendly, and kind. Sounds like I'm trying to make a Mary Sue of sorts, doesn't it? But take that character apart in six pieces and you got the main six. Twilight, Rarity, AJ, RD, Pinkie, and Fluttershy.

So, maybe that is what a team could ideally be thought as. A single character whose traits are the members who make it complete.

We're getting kinda philosophical now.

Though, if we follow this thought experiment to its logical conclusion, wouldn't this hypothetical characters also have all their flaws and vices as well?

Because then we get a character who is a neurotic perfectionist; has strong tendencies towards selfishness, egocentricity and melodrama; is extremely stubborn to the point of irrationality, recklessly prideful with a huge ego yet fragile self-image; manic with occasional yet serious depressive mood swings and probably afflicted with some sort of development disorder, and suffering from very severe anxiety issues. All of this on top of all the good qualities.

So, this character would be an amazing person while simultaneously being a gigantic mess of mental problems and strange contradictions.

So, I think you're kinda right, but perhaps "complete" isn't the right word. Rather, maybe the point of teams is specialization: That you can have all those useful traits in one story by dividing them between characters, since that makes them individually simpler and easier to write?