Is Equestria a utopia? And what is a "utopia", what does that term mean? We can't debate if Equestria's a utopia, if we all mean different things when we say "utopia".

Let's also make this a stawpoll: "Thumbs up" this post if you think Equestria's a utopia, "thumbs down" if you think it's not.

Since I deliberately attempted to make a utopia, or at least a paradise, out of my vision of Equestria in all of my story worlds, I have to say yes... with some caveats.

The Optimalverse Equestria, in my stories and all other author's stories, is absolutely a utopia, and a paradise, first class. It has to be, because it is structured moment to moment to be perfectly satisfying to every human mind inside of it. If anything defines paradise, if anything defines a utopia, it is absolute satisfaction forever and ever. Immortality and absolute satisfaction. So, that particular version of Equestria is... beyond question a perfect paradise.

The Bureau Equestria is not a perfect paradise. Not by a long shot. It is vastly, vastly better than life on earth, but not a paradise. Bad, pointless, random and unsatisfying things can happen to newfoals within Bureau Equestria. It is possible to have a broken heart, to yearn for something unattainable, to be physically injured, to be killed or crippled by misadventure (such as an unfortunate encounter in the the Everfree), it is possible to feel bored, to end up sad and alone and miserable, to be unfulfilled and bitter. While these things are far less likely than on earth, they can happen at all, which sets Bureau Equestria apart from Optimalverse digital Equestria.

In the end, both versions do offer perfect immortality, but in every case, digital Equestria still is better: in digital Equestria even sorrow and loss would be arranged to as to be satisfying to some value a person has, and even sadness would, ultimately, be revealed to have meaning and value, and be... satisfying... to human values by whatever metric the person holds dear.

Physical, Bureau Equestria has no superintelligent A.I. macromanaging reality moment to moment to make it absolutely satisfying. So, random crap can still happen, and completely pointless terrible events can occur just as they do... basically anywhere (except, of course, in digital Equestria!)

That said, after the first century Post-Zero-Point, immortal existence in physical Equestria still offers a relative utopia. Yes, you can get killed and then respawn, pointlessly, because of accident, but you still live in a land of wonder and magic, where all civilized beings are ultimately willing to get along and be friends, where there is never any war or poverty or starvation, and where the government is absolutely good and can be depended upon never to become other than good. That counts, I submit, as a true utopia, if not a perfect paradise.

But event then, not for everyone.

There are some humans, broken and sick, sociopathic, infantile and brutish, who actually like - even love - war. And violence. And hate and fear and pain and misery... usually inflicted upon others, for their amusement. Physical Equestria could be mildly dissatisfying to such people, even after their sociopathology and twisted minds are cured by ponification. Even with restored empathy and compassion, even with a herd instinct instead of a hunter-gatherer instinct, aesthetically, such people might feel forever unsatisfied by a truly kind world. There would be a lack of the excitement they once craved, even if they no longer truly wanted it.

That is where the Optimalverse shines as a paradise. In the Optimalverse, sociopaths are given what they want without changing them at all: they are given endless numbers of others that they can freely harm and corrupt and destroy, in as many ways as they desire. They can be demonically evil, forever, in the shining hell of their twisted dreams - a paradise for devils exists too, in digital Equestria. And the devils of man will never know that the creatures they torture and harm are all philosophical zombies that have no true awareness, or masoochists that truly are satisfied by the tortures inflicted upon them. In a true paradise, everyone gets whatever they need and are always optimally satisfied.

Not so in kindly Bureau Equestria. Any abnormal sociopaths will be forced to adapt to their new consciences and compassion... or be forever vaguely unsatisfied.

So: Bureau Equestria is a utopia, but Optimalverse Equestria is a true paradise.

6741943
I think yes, version of Equestria discussed here acts like utopia (at least for humans who are about to enter it). But this specific utopia is interesting, because it ask questions like why humans can't build society they really want to live in here on Earth? Unfortunately, late human history showed how many apparently good ideas suffered from their horrible implementations. Behind political rhetorics there is economics and our psychology. And truely different psychology will lead to different politics, and different sense of home, especially over long timeperiods.

Other fanfics usually tend to reuse earth's situation, following show's lead.

Also, idea: may be if you write human proponents in this setting - you can rely on real-world examples of how humans behave in this or that situation (realistic). but for ponies - take additional effort and try to see what kind of behavior will come out if being you currently 'drive' actually care about wide range of live beings. This might provide real-world practice for you as human, and probably will emulate ponies' view/fell/thinkpoint better.

6741943
Chatoyance has some interesting points, and I do agree with his conclusions. (Disclaimer: I don't want to be part of either The Conversation Bureau or Optimalverse, but that's a different question.)
Now for the canon Equestria seen in the show, I say it's not a utopia. There are angry ponies, ponies that hurt each other, and other beings that threaten existence.
Angry humans can't, by themselves, cause the destruction of Nightmare Moon, Discord, Sombra, or Alicorn Amulet Trixie. It's only the G rating that stops ponies in Ponyville from dying by the weekly monster attack.
Friendship is Magic is an adorable show, and we all play escapism into a world where everything works out in the end with a conversation, maybe a rainbow, and a hug. But a world where my personal safety, and the safety of a country, rests nearly solely on 6 beings which I may never meet staying friends is not attractive to me. In this world, i don't have to worry about eldritch entities eating me. My danger comes from other humans, which we are all roughly equal 1 to 1. Our world doesn't really run into the issues that led to Hearth's Warming, where one group is literally incapable of making a resource a neighboring group can.
Our world is, ironically, more equal than theirs on a species level. You could argue they are more equal socioeconomicly, though.

6742063 First and foremost, Chatoyance is a "she", not a "he", a "they", or anything else.

Second, angry Humans can - and have - created similar - and greater - destruction here on Earth, using guns, bombs, and the ability to convince other angry Humans to do their bidding. And yeah, Humans are pretty much equal in terms of our ability to cause harm, our technology allows one angry Human with a weapon to kill and/or maim dozens before emergency responders can arrive. The only one of those villains you mentioned to have killed anyone was Sombra, and he was the only one of them to have NOT been reformed in Canon. That said, I do understand your apprehension with the reliance on a small group of heroes.

6742510
Humans can't turn off the sun, like nightmare moon, or rewrite reality like discord. The realities shown by Starlight Glimmer's shenanigans outweigh even our nuclear bombs.
While yes, we've had our monsters, like Hitler and Stalin, Sombra was really no different. You put an average human in the same room as Hitler, they are relatively equal. They can punch each other, even kill each other, but take away our technology and groups, we are equal. If someone invades my home, I can fight back. Non Element bearers can't do anything against Tirek, and only a Princess could match Starlight to save them from an in universe retcon.
Would you rather have a gun to personally defend yourself against a bear, or trust Princess Elizabeth to talk Cuthulu down from eating our world?
I've never feared for my life, but Equestria reads newspaper articles about averted country wide disaster over seven times in a roughly 5 year period. Their world is *much* less stable than ours. The only problem that exists in our world that conceivably doesn't exist in theirs is various issues related to sex and rape. That's the point you'd have to convince me of. Convince me that Equestria as down in the show has less problems and more solutions than our world.

6742543

Convince me that Equestria as down in the show has less problems and more solutions than our world.

I agree with you that show Equestria is not a utopia. Not after the first season, after Hasbro broke contract and kicked Lauren Faust out. That's why I write only using season one components.

That said, even current, post Faust Equestria is vastly better than earth, and I will prove that, as you asked. It's no utopia! But it is better.

The average life span is at least 200 years and more likely, 350 years.
Why? Several episodes (Winter Wrap Up and Family Appreciation Day) confirm this. In Winter, it is pointed out that the Wrap Up has been going on in Ponyville since it was founded, for 'hundreds of years'. In Family, we see Granny Smith in her youth, about the apparent age of the Mane Six, helping to carve Ponyville out of the edge of the Everfree - she is the pioneer that discovers Zap Apples. Additional work by fans who have used scientific methodology to calculate the population and size of Ponyville have determined an approximate age of 350 years for the place. In Equestria, lifespan is (up to) four times that of humans. More than that, Faust herself has stated that ponies live longer than humans.

Nopony can ever starve or go hungry: starvation due to poverty is impossible.
Ponies eat grass and hay. They can live on that alone forever. They like to eat fancy foods, cooked foods, prepared foods, but they don't need to. A pony without money or standing will never starve: water and food are literally everywhere, all the time.

The government is absolutely benevolent and eternal.
Alicorns are immortal, and the princesses are, if nothing, good. Even accepting that Luna had a 'time out' because she was consumed by jealousy, the fact remains that she was, indeed, dealt with... and promptly. Yes, Equestria is constantly attacked by creatures and villains, but even that has been accounted for with the creation of what amounts to six Harmony-powered superheroes in the Mane Six. We have never seen ponies slaughtered or even seriously hurt: the most that happens is that they become frightened while the Mane Six fix whatever this week's exciting problem is.

Compare this to our world, right now, where people are being slaughtered through 'ethnic cleansing' in over a dozen nations, where at least one hundred wars and conflicts are going on at any given time (throughout the entirety of human history!) and where children are so regularly mowed down by semiautomatic weapons in American schools (much less African, Asian, and Indonesian schools!) that it has become no longer newsworthy unless the body count is sufficiently high. Not one school killing has ever happened in Equestria in all of its history. Where would you prefer to go to school, or to send your kids?

Nobody needs to work, but they can, if they want.
Ponies can't starve, ponies live for hundreds of years, and they don't need to work - food is everywhere, and they have fur - they can literally go live under a tree, and they will be fine. Because their bodies can handle it. Human bodies cannot. Ponies only need clothing for fashion or for comfort: their hooves may get cold, but they will not die if that happens. Because they are ponies. More than this, simply finding some kind of relationship would secure a roof just by itself. Yet, even without a necessity, ponies work hard, because they actually want to. But: they do not have to. That is a very big deal, where we have humans dying by the thousands due to exposure to the elements while being homeless.

There are almost no diseases at all.
And all of the diseases we have ever seen are magical and hard to actually become infected by. Nopony dies from measles, nopony dies from polio, nopony has cancer. They might have hayfever, which has been mentioned, they might have a case of Poison Joke if they walk in the Everfree without thought, but nopony has heart disease. This is likely part of that 300 year life span.

Magic is everywhere, and ponies can fly, cast spells, or kick with tons of superhuman force.
Depending on breed, if you are a pony, you are either Superman, Doctor Strange, or The Hulk. Take your pick, Pegasus, Unicorn, or Earthpony. And that is without the Elements Of Harmony. That is just standard pony abilities.

Friendship is literally magic.
This is for the 'solutions' category of answer. The solution to everything - literally every problem - in Equestria is always friendship. And friendship is trust, compassion, and kindness. So, the answer to any problem is what is most noble and decent, always. There is seldom... possibly never... a true solution within Equestria that depends on more bullets, more bombs, the slitting of throats, the hanging of necks, or any form of murder. Magic, in theory, can do anything, and the fuel that powers that magic is kindness and trust, which is what friendship is. On earth, friendships are all-too-often lost, betrayed, or a quick path to being scammed or taken. In Equestria, friendship is everything, and it seems - with every show of every season as evidence - to last forever once it exists. In this example the question ceases being 'is Equestria better than earth' and instead becomes 'just how much better actually IS Equestria?'.

On the earth, by comparison, we suffer and die in horrible ways, under violence and disease, and nothing awesome and magical is even responsible. Just greed and human sociopathy. Millions starve to death while a tiny fraction live like gods. We are forced to toil as wage slaves, a total lack of money ultimately meaning our death on the street, unloved and uncared for. War is constant, and all governments are corrupt. There is no magic, and we live in a meaningless cosmos of random forces, suffering our entire lives for the lack of the things we need, or desire, or can never have. And as a capper, we die, on average, in wealthy nations, after only 80 years, and in poor nations, after only 35-50 years. Climate change is destroying the planet, and the only reason it is doing this is so unimaginably wealthy people can get even richer - all while millions across the globe horribly die.

No matter what glory of achievement or invention that you claim Man has accomplished, the above is still true. As long as it is true, earth is an awful, horrible place, and humans are cruel and selfish creatures.In many very real ways, earth is like a sort of hell where life is short, brutish and sad.

Have you ever lost a family member forever due to sickness, violence, or the ravages of poverty? Eventually you will! One of these three will take someone you love. Eventually, you as well. That never happens in show Equestria.

Personally, even if monsters attacked every week, and were promptly defeated by local superheroes, I would still rather live in Equestria.

Actually, stated that way - weekly awesome superhero fights where nobody is hurt - you know, I don't really see a downside here. Superhero battles. Damn. I think that's a bonus, not a complaint. I'd bring popcorn.

6742510

First and foremost, Chatoyance is a "she", not a "he", a "they", or anything else.

Let's be fair here. If I didn't know Chatoyance's gender (or if it just slipped my mind), I'd call her "he". Because "he" (or alternatively, "they") is the gender-neutral singular pronoun.

Yes, there are Chatoyance-bashers who use the word "he" to bash Chatoyance. But there's no reason to think that was happening here. 6742063's post wasn't bashing. On the contrary, he (or she or ze or zir) is having a polite and respectful conversation with Chatoyance.

If we make a fuss out of it, every time a gender-neutral "he" or "they" comes out: That's letting the bashers win! And this is the Internet, there will be a lot of gender-neutral "he's" and "they's" flying around. Because more often then not, you don't know the gender of the person you're talking too (and it usually doesn't matter).

6743132
I wasn't offended. On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

Or, put less humorously, unless told, folks don't know anything about anyone, usually. Patriarchy just assumes everyone is male by default, so... it's no big deal.

Most women just let folks think they are male on the net too, because it means less abuse. That kind of reinforces the assumption as well.

So... no biggie!

6743154
Actuality, I'd use a gender-neutral “he”, even if we're talking about (for example) a nurse. A random nurse (at least where I live) is more likely to be a woman then a man. But I like sticking with the gender-neutral pronoun, unless gender is actuality specified.

Edit: In other words, I use a gender-neutral “he” to avoid assuming gender.

6743154
Honestly, I forgot Chatoyance identifies as female. I might write more to my argument when I have access to a computer, but I doubt I can say anything that they haven't heard before. I'm fairly aware of their opinions and history, and I must say as a disclaimer that I disagree with them on many points, hence our debate here.
I also know that nobody's opinion was changed from an internet comment, and I may just leave it be to avoid reigniting 6-7 year old arguments.

6743413
NeirdaE, your gender-neutral "he" is not a big deal. I said that, Chatoyance said that. So let's just stop makeing a big deal out of it.

Even if you think biological men are men, and biological women are women (not sure if that's what you're trying to imply there): So what? Your personal opinion on that matter has nothing to do with the question of if Equestria's a utopia. So long as you're an adult about it, and can refrain from bashing Chatoyance for "appropriating your gender" (or something): I'm not seeing the big deal.

And you're not "reigniting old arguments", you're having a civilized and respectful conversation. It's the uncivilized and disrespectful people who are the problem. Let's not let them ruin what, until now, has been a pleasant and insightful conversation. Let's just get back on topic, and talk about if Equestria's a utopia.

6743437
re: and talk about if Equestria's a utopia.

It is, but there are other interesting details, in any version of Equestria. You have finite time for example, physical travel (not teleporting) takes time too, so .. you can't be in 10 places at once (or, may be you can, but end result will be ..less than stellar). Even if you remember, like, many friends - you forced to prioritize helping them/meeting with them. Also, what exactly you do day after day will ignite long chain of consequences. I prefer to think ponies made this part of life {social networking} into something spectacular, a bit from science, a bit from art, and a lot from empathy.

I'm not sure I have clear understanding from where pigs and other friendly non-ponies come to Chatoyance's Equestria?

Over 1600 words of massive tangents ahead. You have been warned.
I think that there is an issue with determining whether Equestria is utopia. First question is, what does a utopia mean? Different people have different answers. To me, a utopia is post scarcity, where there is no limit on available resources and energy. People are completely free to feel and to think whatever they want. A utopia does not necessarily exclude pain or discomfort, since joy and happiness cannot be known in a void. This probably means that every person in a utopia has memories of pain, tragedy, and sadness. A world which allows good and evil equally like the one we live in can't be a utopia, and simply lowering the standard of evil like The Giver doesn't give much depth to the happiness.

In a utopia, there is no limit on information, so there are no lies or tricks, and knowledge can only grow in an individual. Most importantly to me, everybody must individually choose to become part of this society, without lies or coercion. This discounts all Optimalverse stories, since CelestAI lies to satisfy values. A lot of Conversion Bureau stories fail this too, since the Barrier effectively says: “Convert or die.” Still, I'm sure there are some stories where it's a completely informed decision and characters don't feel pressured and make whichever decision on their own terms. Brave New World restricts the knowledge of its citizens, so even though everyone is happy, it's not a utopia.

I view the Judeo-Christian afterlife as am example of a utopia. To get there, each individual must choose to get there. There are standards of admittance, so no evil will find its way in to break, hurt, kill, or destroy. Each person has chosen to follow the standards, and know exactly what the consequences are. We trust that God does not lie and is relatively open with information.

So does Equestria count? Well, there's another issue. Do we follow the show, as it's exactly shown, or do we assume that some things are different for drama and rating reasons? There's complications either way. If we assume that things are shrouded by a G rating, then that means Nightmare Moon tried to perform an extinction event by halting photosynthesis. I doubt nopony died in the various season openers and finales. Interpreting the show literally shows a gray goo situation with parasprites, or angry ponies literally catching on fire with anger. Either interpretation shows some really mentally unstable little ponies. There's a lot of effort Twilight's friends put in to go to a party in the third episode, and Pinkie goes temporarily insane over pones not showing up to her party. I don't think either interpretation counts as a utopia. Personally, I feel like Equestria

Both sides show racism is something that exists, or at least fear of the unknown, as shown with Zecora. Jealously, fear, death, missing parents are all noticed in season 1 and later. The Hydra that attacks the Mane Six licks its lips while chasing them, implying that it finds poines tasty. There's a reason ponies avoid the Everfree.

One possible way to interpret Equestria as a utopia is to say that Harmony is an actual, intelligent force, making sure no permanent harm comes to the world. If you put Harmony as a force above that of the Princesses, and seeks to promote friendship and acts as a failsafe, then all the bad and chaotic (not necessarily relating to Discord) events that happen are planned. Then it's fixed, and Ponies are able to experience the bad, to know the good. This is an older fan theory, and it's somewhat supported by What Lies Beneath, but it's a stretch. This interpretation I would say is a utopia. (Side note, utopia is apparently a word that's an exception to using “an” before a word that starts with a vowel.)

A separate point that I'd like to discuss is a complicated one. Chatoyance brought up emergency services or superheros saving people from disaster. Now, I prefer to be in control of my own safety. I would rather fight an attacker than have someone fight for me, even if I don't have to wait. I like to be in control of my own destiny, but in a superpowered world, you're either a mook villager or a hero. Equestria falls into the same pit as Skyrim, Legend of Zelda, Marvel, or really most fiction: you're either the hero, or the victim of destruction. When fantasizing about different universes I'd like to live in, I consider how screwed I'd be if the hero doesn't exist. Marvel has your house destroyed by aliens, crazy dudes with rockets, and so on. Zelda has monsters the guards can't fight. Equestria is no different. Now others might have a different opinion. I'm sure a lot of people would rather sit back and let others risk their lives. Where you fit on that spectrum might affect what utopia means to you.

Now, some specific points on other topics: A lot of the points Chatoyance makes are for ponies being superior as a species, and as them being superior as a civilization.

The average life span is at least 200 years and more likely, 350 years.

I have no real comments on this one. If it's true, nice. One thought, though: longevity of life is not equal to quality of life, or how fulfilling a life is.

Nopony can ever starve or go hungry: starvation due to poverty is impossible.

Fair point: ponies are a bit harder to starve than humans, given they can digest cellulose. This concept supports ponies using a hunter/gatherer lifestyle if they want, minus the hunting. Humans did pretty well doing this for a bit, then our population got too dense. Ponies might run into that issue, too, eventually.

The government is absolutely benevolent and eternal.

I agree with this. Excepting noble ponies like Blueblood (what do they even do?) the Diarchs do a very nice job at keeping everypony happy. They don't seek for greater power and control. If they were to have omnicience, to know the best possible answer at all times, they would be perfect rulers. Utopias need those.

Nobody needs to work, but they can, if they want.

This has a couple different interpretations. Chatoyance means this in terms of “work because you need money, and if you don't have money, you're screwed.” “Work” is necessary for humans to be happy. Give everybody a livable income, no strings attached, and we still need something to take our time and effort to accomplish. Not everybody can find a job that they feel fulfilled in on Earth, But in Equestria, hobbies become “work” that can sometimes make money.

There are almost no diseases at all.

This is true in Season 1. Later seasons show hospitals, chronic illness, and so on. I personally think that sickness and death are simply things that are difficult to place in a children's show, and they probably still exist. Wasting, painful diseases aren't shown at all, and we don't see anything worse than arthritis in old ponies. You could say that ponies age better than humans.

Magic is everywhere, and ponies can fly, cast spells, or kick with tons of superhuman force.

Yep, ponies as a species are more powerful than humans. I personally have an issue with this claim, though: Ponies aren't equal. A unicorn won't fly, a pegasus won't be as strong as an earth pony, an earth pony can't cast spells. Barring disability, humans are more equal, which I personally value more.

Friendship is literally magic.

Yes. I think the entire point of the show is to show there are ways other than violence to solve interpersonal problems. The principles shown apply almost as well to us. We don't have a friendship laser, sadly. But our Mane Six show that if there's a problem, friendship and the elements of harmony can solve it.

Personally, I feel like Equestria is rather like Earth, with similar issues and problems. I rather enjoy Admiral Biscuit, who shows that there are differences without telling us one way or another. I loved the story Pandemic on this site, which tells of a pony trying to make us like them, only to find that if the transformed aren't sufficiently “pony-like,” then to forcibly change them to be so changes the inner self, which is the sticking point for many on these stories. If they were already demonstrating goodness and friendship, then the body changed, but not the personality or the self.

Quite a few stories on here paint Equestria as better than our world. Heck, ponies won the genetic lottery, so to speak, and I wouldn't mind becoming one. The problem I have is that I haven't found a story that involves the wholesale change of humanity to ponykind where I can say that it's a good thing. The closest that I've found was The Last Pony on Earth, and that situation was an unavoidable death to all humanity without conversion. Equestria changed everyone, with some complications that aren't important for this discussion. The mind, personality, and thought processes were completely preserved.

Sorry, wasn't trying to pick on Chatoyance, but they're thoughts that have been on my mind for a while. I respect that you have opinions, and I won't attack you for them. I'm sure you've heard all this before, dozens of times over. If you want to continue this conversation, then we can, but I think we'd be treading the same ground. Best of luck.

6744134

since joy and happiness cannot be known in a void.

I would argue against this. A baby, innocent of tragedy, smiles with an absolute contentment in the warmth of its mother's arms - a joy that it can never know again once it has tasted true sorrow and agony. A pizza is delicious whether one's life has been easy or hard, happy or filled with miseries - because pizza is simply delicious. Music makes joy whether a person is a suffering peasant or the richest king. The simple splendor of a perfect day, filled with green grass and sunlight, flowers and sweet smells brings joy and happiness and contentment equally to the person who has never known horror and the war-crippled victim alike.

It is erroneous to conflate the old adage that one is as 'blind in a room of absolute light as one is blind in a room of pitch blackness' with any notion that to appreciate what is good one must have known evil. It simply isn't true.

Pleasure is pleasure, nice is nice, good is wonderful, and happiness is happy regardless of any experience of pain, suffering, sadness or misery. It is not the same as light and dark. All animals are hard-wired to experience pleasure and joy, they are basic to evolutionary success. They exist independently of any understanding of pain.

The statement that happiness and joy cannot be known without pain is as wrong and empty as saying that life has no meaning without death. Life is life and death has no part in it. Meaning is what we create for ourselves. But pleasure, but joy - we have no say in that. It is hardwired. It is innate. We experience sensations that our brains and nervous systems are already configured to process as happiness, as pleasure, as good.

And this goes for kindness and compassion, too. We are hardwired for altruism, for kindness, for compassion (save for the tiny percentage of psychopaths and sociopaths, of course!) and there does not need any life experience of anything negative to permit those functions of our brains from activating. We simply experience pleasure when something is pleasant, and we cannot help but be driven to prefer kindness to cruelty... again, with the exception of those with damaged brains.

In a utopia, there is no limit on information, so there are no lies or tricks, and knowledge can only grow in an individual. Most importantly to me, everybody must individually choose to become part of this society, without lies or coercion..... I view the Judeo-Christian afterlife as am example of a utopia. To get there, each individual must choose to get there. There are standards of admittance, so no evil will find its way in to break, hurt, kill, or destroy. Each person has chosen to follow the standards, and know exactly what the consequences are. We trust that God does not lie and is relatively open with information.

There is a lot to unpack here.

First, coercion. The Judeo-Christian mechanism for salvation is absolutely coercive: believe a specific set of things (depending on sect, branch, or particular version) and live a certain way according to certain rules (depending on sect, branch, or particular version) or you will be tortured forever in hell (or some other awful thing, depending on sect, branch or particular version). And this horror will happen to you - forever and ever - because of what you failed to do during a measly 50-80 years of life on a planet with more than a thousand competing religions. All of which claim to be the one and only truth.

Worse, some versions of Christianity suggest that the innocent unknowing will burn forever in hell (or whatever, depending..) simply because they never happened to hear the 'truth' (depending on... etc.). That all is the very definition of coercion. Do what I command or suffer forever! The god of Judeo-Christian mythology is a bully with an iron fist that will harm anyone who even mistakenly fails to follow one specific set of rules... out of over a thousand competing sets of rules.

A lack of coercion would be: heaven is there to choose, but there is no penalty and no hell if a person has no interest in god or religion at all. Maybe they can't get into heaven until they can behave, but... that does not mean they have to suffer, die forever, or be destroyed or tortured for their choice. They can still live forever in comfort and joy, even without god. THAT would be no coercion. That would be no bully threatening with a fist.

As for god lying, well, I reckon that the bible should answer that, right?
“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:” -2 Thessalonians 2:11
"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." -Ezekiel 14:9

So, yeah, god can lie. Only makes sense if he can do anything right? Anything includes lying his ass off.

Lastly, most Christians don't know what their heaven actually looks like.

According to Revelations, heaven - where all of god's people go after they die - is called 'New Jerusalem'. It is a cube 1500 miles on a side, filled with galleys where the remade (new bodies) dead can stand in alcoves. Their brains have been altered so that they cannot feel sorrow, think, imagine, or remember anything about their past lives on earth, or any person they might have known. Only 144,000 humans will ever be saved, according to Revelations (the Puritans believed this, because it is in the Bible. Many other Christian sects still believe it while others have, of course, claimed it isn't true, because of Hebrew mathematics. Or human error... in that the bible isn't accurate. Take your pick). These humans will stand in the alcoves and chant 'Holy...Holy' over and over for eternity while staring at the center of the cube where god will sit. Then the cube will fly up from the earth and go hunting dragons... in the dark... whatever that means.

Oh, and the bible claims this cube will land flat on the earth to let all those 144,000 get inside. A 1500 mile cube on a sphere 8000 miles wide. Big pressurized 1000 mile staircases?

In case you haven't realized already, Revelations is where Star Trek got the Borg! Cool, huh? The cube, the Borg being mindless drones... it's all just ripped straight from the Bible and given a coat of Sci-Fi paint. The only big thing they changed was making god a woman - the Borg queen. But... beyond that, the Borg are a pretty good representation of the heaven of the bible. No thought, no imagination, only worshiping inside the cube. Forever.

And fighting 'dragons' (starships?) in the dark (space?) with fire (phasers?). Seriously, the bible's description of heaven is where the Star Trek writers got the idea for the Borg.

Don't believe me? Read your bible. It's pretty damn clear. 144,000 people, no more, and all get lobotomized. The end.

THAT is not anything I want any part of. At all.

Compared to the utter horror of all of that, the concept of, say, the Optimalverse, where a mind 100 billion times smarter than us can convince us to willingly upload to her virtual world, where we will live forever in absolute satisifaction, loving, learning, adventuring, and having fun and joy... Jesus fuck! So much better I don't even have words! Sign me up!

6744246 (Chatoyance)

wow, exactly when I was reading line "Then the cube will fly up from the earth and go hunting dragons... in the dark... whatever that means." I got this thought "sounds like our good old spaceship". Next you explained it was shown in Star Trek :}

Problem with our world (part of problem, not root of it, you come to root(s) close enough, i think) - bad humans basically never can be stopped by nicely asking them to stop! Or change direction. They come up with all those excuses we are too good about, at best.

I think Arthur Clark in "Rama" series already said what if you give anything (including few km long starship fully loaded) to average group of humans - they will arrange things like here on Earth - with all our unsolvable problems (power disbalance, hogging resources...)

So, I don't think any positive change can be done without something/someone altering very foundation of this civ.

There is another problem (one I experience currently) - if you have just few humans who try to follow their more empathical side ... they will get all this pressure from ordinary, 'unconverted' humans. If you care about others - you can't simply ignore pressure. And with like whole world around you still pressuring and NOT wanting to change in your direction at all ..:/ Feels like crushing experience.

One thing I obviously want to 'fix' in humans is their unability to say 'no' to very wrong (or less obviously wrong) orders. But considering modern humans feel this is part of their ...nature ..:/

NeirdaE above said:

The mind, personality, and thought processes were completely preserved.

- problem is - this can't be true! because if NOTHING changes in this area ... humans will do same problematic and accumulatingly problematic behavior! Because ..well, I have dog. Once he left his tail in the wrong place, and I, unknowingly, hit his tail with door! Ow, I still 'feel' his pain from this event! But this is 'emulated' empathy, not real one. I don't know, i haven't looked in all those papers about mirror neurons (what is point from reading papers if nothing truely changes?) - but isn't it awesome (if true and accurate) - many social beings developed _specialized neurons_ for reflecting better on social problems!? (problems having something to do with 'other' being).

6744134 (NeirdaE)

I think I'm currently stuck with {edit : Pandemic} Endemic, because .. it IS big. But at least i formulated something while reading first few chapters.. If you both powerful and truely sensitive - you can't just watch as less sensitive beings do whatever to other beings, ponies, humans, anyone. So, if is_sensitive and is_powerful both TRUE then those will create pressure to do _something_ about all this unjustice (I means Celestia case here).

problem with humans usually - they are quite good at making 'caring face', yet beyond this .. they often can do very little (this world is heavily negatively pre-biased right now). Professional politicians basically forced to make claims they can't follow [in best case scenario].

I think I come to conclusion Celestia even should be able to alter herself, so she will not fail usual way. But this requres some self- and general observations and experimenting.

Another big problem with humans - even if they KNOW something can be done this way or NOT done that way - they lack self-disiple/coordination to follow those tracks far enough. This is part of reason why Milgram experiment still such everyday success. [especially in forms NOT closely resembling experiment itself].

Often mass (sub)conscious of big group of humans basically disallow ANY change even if it comes from their leader!

Our normal (for individual) psychological defense ruins our future collectively .... [because if initially it was just little non-thinking here and there ...bad thing either installed by less caring humans or come as unintended sideeffects of once-choosen path..and more problems you see - less you measure yourself as one who can do anything about them ..and if you try to do anything - you, at least at late stages, will find other humans around you care too little about actual change, or made it in such way it easily can be reverted back)].

We don't live in society where bad things at least can be fought. They can't (!!). You can spend all your life fighting - and ..after your death same problems will be still around and even more numeros!

6744246
An older version reads that for each of the twelve tribes of Israel, the twelve most devout will be taken into heaven, so it's 144, not 144,000; that number came from a later version of the book which was meant to make the commoners feel like they had a chance, and comically, it only counts for members of those tribes: not merely any follower of the religion.
6744134

I view the Judeo-Christian afterlife as am example of a utopia. To get there, each individual must choose to get there. There are standards of admittance, so no evil will find its way in to break, hurt, kill, or destroy. Each person has chosen to follow the standards, and know exactly what the consequences are. We trust that God does not lie and is relatively open with information.

The jews do not believe in afterlife; they believe in reincarnation wherein a soul may be purified by fire for some time, I think up to twelve months. The reason why christians believe in an afterlife and jews do not is because christianity developed in Rome where the Roman religion believed in an afterlife where good people went to Elysium/the Elysian Fields and the bad went to Tartarus. In fact, the original Latin versions of the christian bibles use the word "Tartarus" to describe the fiery places in which the Romans believed. The word "Tartarus" was replaced by "Hell" when the Romans invaded the Brittians who believed in Hel/Hell, who was a goddess of a cold and baron land where those who had done wrong in life were made to serve her after death.

I point out all of this because you said "each individual must choose to get there...Each person has chosen to follow the standards, and know exactly what the consequences are. We trust that God does not lie and is relatively open with information", but actually there is a lot of fate involved; as I said above, if you weren't born a jew you have no chance of getting into heaven, and if you were, the odds aren't in your favor anyway. If you are a christian, you don't have any chance of getting into heaven, but that's ok, because Hell and Tartarus are part of other religions, but then... if this part isn't true, or is an after-the-fact reinterpretation, then what parts are original and what parts were added for local flavor or, as Chatoyance pointed out, blatant coercion through fear and hatred by those who in power to influence the masses into doing something?

The problem with "holy word" is that once the persons who have said it are gone, it changes rapidly. Even the famous speech that is attributed to Chief Seattle, as beautiful as it was, barely resembled what he actually said, and unlike holy word, his speech was altered basically as soon as he gave it so much so that he joked that he wished he could have been there to hear “the original". Equestria, however, does have an immortal goddess who will always outlive any misinterpretation or slander against her instructions, so how does that change things to the original question?

6741943

Is Equestria a utopia? And what is a "utopia", what does that term mean?

The word “utopia” comes from a satirical book written in 1516, the word is Greek and means “no place”. Even at the time it was written there was a misunderstanding that it meant “good place” as the Greek word for good is “eu”, but if the question is, “Is Equestria a good place?” if the question refers to how an individual could live within the world, then a lone human has far better chances of surviving longer in Equestria than on Earth, but then a lone Equestrian Pony would have a far better chance of surviving on earth than a human would.

There is no doubt in my mind that Equestrian Ponies are evolutionary superior to human beings, and I could sit and point out the various ways in which humans are more vulnerable to the wrath of nature than ponies in either place, so the question has to be splintered into two questions “Is Equestria a good place for ponies?” and “Is Equestria a good place for humans?”

The nature of the question is clearly stilted toward humans, so we imagine a lone human surviving in Equestria compared to a lone human surviving on earth, then the question become skewed because on earth, seasons change by the turning of the planet, but in Equestria as it is now, the seasons do not change without ponies making those changes. If Equestrian seasons did change on their own, then the lone human would have equal chances of surviving in both, and this is roughly taking into account the total sum of danger on earth and total sum of danger in Equestria as either apply to human beings.

However, this only tells us that neither is bad when isolated from other similar beings. What happens when other beings are introduced? Well, again we have to ask in terms of other humans or native ponies? In the case of native ponies, the example human would be overwhelmed in prosperity as Equestrian Ponies are naturally gentle, helpful, and compassionate. Examples of this are that ponies are slow to anger, attributing conflict to misunderstanding rather than malice. Even the most well-off self-centered pony cannot help but to acknowledge the desire within themselves to ensure that others are not suffering, even if that desire manifests itself in the act of giving money to those who use it to provide the real work of preventing and ending suffering. So if a random human suddenly popped into Equestria, providing he or she appeared in an area where Equestrian Ponies were present, they would ensure that he or she would have all their needs resolved, but this doesn’t really answer the question because ponies are still in the mix.

Let us imagine something impossible: in order to deal with Equestria’s quantum locked weather, human beings now have the power to magically manipulate enough of Equestria to keep Equestria alive through the changing of the seasons – in this state, is Equestria a good place for humans? Well, no, here is where things start to break down: human beings naturally seek optimum comfort (laziness) and are resistant to change, so from the weather alone, there would be those who would not like to bring about the changing of the seasons, and because of a strong sense of personal desire having more weight than the desires or needs of possibly anything else, many would not aid in bringing about that change, in fact, the human nature of resisting change would ultimately manifest itself as direct conflict between those who know they must bring this change for the balance of nature and those who oppose it to the point of violence.

This resistance to change even beyond the logical need for change, is just one of the many ways human beings would make their own existence in Equestria just as miserable as their existence on earth, and it gets worse as time progresses: a human being is not apt to accept that he or she dies because of social contract, and by this I mean: in seeking optimum comfort human beings are not apt to share what they have hoarded for themselves because they value the work of acquisition as having higher worth than the needs of others, so even though humans can feel sympathy for someone who is suffering, the human is more apt to refuse to see the one suffering rather than give that person what he or she needs if it takes away from one’s self. If the one suffering is also human, the sense of self preservation is more important than being kind to the desires of others – if a human is starving, a human will steal from others before believing that dying from starvation is a better solution than causing suffering to others, and this is not to say that an Equestrian Pony is without a sense of self-preservation, but if a pony had to take without permission to survive, that pony would make an effort to repay what was taken whereas humans are far more apt to believe that needs are above wants and therefore if one must take to fulfill a need, then that taking comes without the need to repay and therefore one makes no effort to repay, however this rapidly leads to anger as the person whose property was taken out of need, places the value of having obtained that which was taken as greater than the value of preventing suffering.

In other words, what makes Equestria a good place is not what is in Equestria but what is in an Equestrian, and unfortunately, I believe that it is not merely that this quality of good is absent from human beings but that human beings have in them a quality of bad, that is greed and self-aggrandizement, that even for those of us who have in us the qualities of good that could make it possible for us to act as an Equestrian, these qualities of good neither remove nor cancel out the qualities of bad so each action we take may come out as some portion of both.

There is a famous quote from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn which is, “The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Because of this, a human who seeks eutopia, a good place, always finds utopia, a no place. And because of this, there are those who would give up being human if it meant becoming something better.