Just recently, user Diomedes asked me some questions about ponification and serum. I responded, and then thought the entire exchange was useful and interesting. I have decided to offer it here, below:

What is the serum composed of exactly? How to it's various components react to one another such as the nano-machines and the imbued magic?

Ponification Transformation Serum is composed of six different strains of nanomachines held in a suspension of pure Equestrian (E-Matter) water and the literal life blood of one or both princesses. The nanomachines are constructed by the Worldgovernment Nanotech Sciences Division, and are built of ordinary, earthly matter.

The blood of the princesses is provided by them, and then diluted on the Equestrian side. The result is brought through the Barrier under Royal Guard, and handled by Blackmesh security forces who transport it to the nanofactories.

The mixing of nanotech and the suspension is overseen by members of the Royal Corps Of Unicorns working with the staff of the nanotech factories. The Royal Mages weave spells into the mixture, and the nanotech components. The completed serum is then placed in containers and shipped to the Bureaus under Blackmesh security guard.

- Once active, what does the serum actually do to someone afflicted by it? What does the serum act like in order to spread through the body? (Bacteria/Virus/Multiple use nanomachines/Self-replicating nanomachines etc.) What happens to the afflicted cells?

The nanomachines function only because of the anti-entropic power of Equestrian physics. Nanotech for human reconstruction was abandoned by the Worldgovernment Medical Sciences Division because it was determined that the physical motion of submicroscopic machines generated too much heat - heat that built up and essentially cooked the very flesh it was trying to repair.

Equestrian thaumatic forces avoid the issues of entropy and heat because they operate outside the physical laws of our universe. This permits the virus-sized nanomachines to make massive changes in living flesh without causing a build-up of heat. The suspension powers the machines, as well as helping to direct them in their activities.

The nanomachines begin by spreading evenly through the body by way of the circulatory and lymphatic systems. Once they quorum-sense proper distribution, they begin reconstruction of the body. Bones are chemically depleted of calcium, and the remaining cartilaginous framework is shortened or lengthened according to pre-programmed design, and then the bones are resupplied with calcium (for example). In the case of additional limbs, such as wings, entirely new bones and muscles are grown from scratch. Mass for transformation comes from available fat and tissue within the body. Any excess flesh is shed as needed.

The nanomachines also search out and eliminate any implants or artificial components in the body, what cannot be disassembled is forced out of the flesh and piles up around the changing body.

In the case of structures like eyes, they are entirely disassembled while the skull is reshaped, and new eyes are grown and installed as the sockets form. When needed, the nanomachines build temporary scaffolds of proteins to hold structures in place until reconstruction is complete.

The process is made vastly simpler because, long, long ago, Celestia based much of her universe on what she could see, in brief glimpses, of our world, earth. Thus, while ponies do not closely resemble earth horses, they do share many, many architectural similarities. The skeleton, for example, is essentially identical to the basic plan of earth mammals and reptiles, which is universal and shared in common among all creatures on our planet. To convert a human into a pony is more a matter of clever repositioning and alteration of lengths and shapes, than any truly radical change. This vastly simplifies ponification, and arguably makes it possible at all.

It should be noted that not only is the body reshaped and remade into Equestrian form, the very matter of which it is made is altered into E-Matter, or Equestrian matter. This happens as a direct effect from the blood of the princesses, which is not actually any form of biological material. The princesses Celestia and Luna are energy beings who only appear physical, and their 'blood' is actually an extension of the forces which animate them, and which sustain Equestria itself.

When Conversion is complete, the nanomachines - which themselves are now made of E-Matter - disassemble themselves and become sugar complexes in the blood and tissues of the freshly minted Newfoal.

- How does the serum distinguish a surface in order to activate itself? What variety of tissues/matter can the serum affect?

The nanomachines have the capacity to sense and interpret their immediate environment, working together directed by Equestrian thamatic constructs attached to them ('Spells'), they can, as a whole, have a sense of the entire creature. They activate when they detect the surface proteins of primate cells, once inside they can determine if the cells are human or, say, chimpanzee. If the latter, they shut down. If human, they continue.

Ponification serum only activates when it detects human tissue, it affects nothing else. However, the liquid serum is strongly thaumatic and radiates thaumatic energy. Thaumatic energy can burn any living cell, plant or animal, and proximity or contact with potion will destroy any biological tissue.

When ingested or applied to human tissue, the Conversion Process begins immediately, and operates faster than cells perish from the collapse of quantum function.

Thaumatic energy kills earthly life for a very simple and basic reason. Magic, the physical law of Equestria, is not indeterminate. In order to reconstruct, with a spell, an apple into an orange on a whim, the thaumatic field has to 'know' or 'understand' what apples and oranges are, and apply an almost Platonic Ideal in order to permit such a spell to work. This means that for magic, outcomes are in principle known, and true randomness cannot normally exist (Exception: chaos magic as exemplified by Discord).

Without true randomness, quantum indeterminacy is collapsed. All earthly life depends on quantum functions in order to work. Plants use quantum indeterminacy to make photosynthesis nearly 100 percent efficient - something literally impossible unless photons can be made to exist in a superposition where they are simultaneously in every chloroplast at the same time thanks to indeterminacy.

Similarly, animal cells, especially neurons, depend on quantum effects within microtubules in order to permit their function, deprived of indeterminacy, cell function ceases and the cells die. This accounts for the 'Mage Plague', the necrosis that occurs with exposure to strong thaumatic radiation.

In short, magic destroys quantum indeterminacy, and life depends on quantum functions to work. Magic is certainty, and that is death to the quantum world.

- Many writers have very zealously 'zombified' the characters known as 'Newfoals', I understand that this behavior and condition is, in fact, not accurate to the affects of the serum in your stories, can you just confirm this? What are the affects exactly? How do they change the subject?

The brain, being a part of the body, is of course reordered and affected by Conversion. Basic, obvious alterations, such as to the internal 'body map' make walking and comprehending limbs and senses much easier for the Newfoal. That said, many Newfoals still require time to learn how to use their new bodies - the body map is changed, but Newfoals are not gifted with pre-programmed knowledge of any kind, including knowledge of how to use their bodies.

Perhaps the biggest change to the brain is the alteration from primate to pseudo-equine mentation. While Equestrians were vaguely based on early earth equines, they are not actually ponies, but are carefully designed, tool-using, technologically capable sapients. They do have some instincts related to their equine inspiration.

Equestrians are unable to kill or maim, torture or rape, slaughter or murder, commit atrocities or horrific acts. The reason this is impossible for them is because their brains have hypertrophied mirror neurons, limbic regions devoted to compassion and empathy, and a virtually infinite Dunbar's number.

Dunbar's Number refers to the maximum number of individuals a human can hold within their brain under the label of 'us' as opposed to 'them'. It is an average, some humans have higher or lower Dunbar numbers. The mechanism is a result of evolving as a hunter-gatherer ape; humans have spent the majority of their existence on earth living in tribal groups of about 100 to 150 members. During times of scarcity, pre-industrial humans have always raided other groups, slaughtering them for everything they possess. The drive is so strong that it occurs even in paradisaical environments devoid of scarcity (See: Polynesia and Hawaii).

To the Equestrian brain - Newfoal or native - this is literally unthinkable. War is unthinkable, incomprehensible. The drive to violence is eliminated entirely except in one circumstance: Equestrians are more than capable of self-defence. They are even capable of causing grievous bodily harm or accidental death when defending themselves or those they care about. But this response occurs only in desperation, and afterwards, Equestrians cannot help but feel sorry for their attackers, despite everything.

Essentially, in terms of personality change, Newfoals lose the hunter-gatherer instincts of the killer primate. The instincts that serve survival on a planet of scarcity, starvation, danger, and struggle are maladaptive within an extropic cosmos of plenty. In a universe where friendship is literally magic and powers life itself, evolved violence for survival is the opposite of useful.

Newfoals cannot help but care about others, even those they do not know. They cannot help but care about all beings. No Newfoal or Equestrian native would tolerate a world where any being starved, was homeless, or endured suffering. This change is highly unhuman.

However - beyond a vastly increased Dunbar's number, and hypertrophied compassion and empathy for all, no other aspect of personality is changed in any way. These are the ONLY changes made to the parts of the brain that affect personality and identity. Newfoals remain themselves in every respect entirely except as described: there are no pony psychopaths, and all ponies have an essential herd instinct... only their herd consists of all feeling beings.

This does not make them saints, except perhaps in comparison to how brutal and red of tooth and claw earth is. There can be rude, annoying, even obnoxious ponies. Newfoals can be jerks... it just that, when push comes to shove, they can never truly be horrible, or evil, or cruel. That is taken from the Converted forever, along with atrocity, murder and torture. Violent tendencies are replaced with compassion and empathy. But otherwise, the self is entirely untouched.

Put even more simply: your Newfoal 'Funny Uncle' relative is still an unpleasant asshole, but as a pony, he cannot truly hurt you anymore. He can't even consider stealing your bank account to run to the racetrack, you will never find him buggering your infant son or daughter in the dark. He'll never end up in court barely getting off of a charge of drug-related murder again. But he can still be his usual annoying self during family reunions.

Oh - there is one last thing that affects the mind, but it is temporary. It is called 'Conversion Euphoria', and it is the result of neurotransmitter imbalance just after Conversion. It was deliberately created, when conversion serum was developed.

Conversion euphoria lasts from six to eighteen hours, it is a feeling of overwhelming joy and contentment. Some giggle, others just smile a lot, almost all get a bit huggy and overly glad to see everyone and everything. It eases the transition between human and Equestrian form, acting as a pallative buffer to any shock from the change.

Some Newfoals have been known to wistfully recall their initial euphoria, even years later, because of how pleasant it is. But it wears off, never to be repeated.

-In what form can the serum be delivered? Can it effectively be transferred through the use of firearms? How much of the serum needs to be applied to what parts of the subject to activate?

Initially, serum was delivered only in liquid form. It could be ingested (the most common and recommended form of delivery), injected (very uncommon), or applied directly to the body. The latter delivery mechanism generally required more serum than the first two means, and was never utilized by the Worldgovernment.

The standard dosage is three ounces of ponification serum for a human between 60 and 250 pounds, an additional ounce of potion is used for every 100 pounds beyond that. Children and infants under 60 pounds could be given between one and a half to two and a half ounces, depending on weight and other factors.

Ponification serum is prepared for use by mixing it with an anesthetic to avoid agony during the conversion process. Some humans have suffered conversion without anesthetic, it is described as being excruciating beyond imagination. Fortunately, most eventually fall unconscious, either from the pain, or when the brain begins to be restructured.

Many Newfoals describe having 'Conversion Dreams' - curious lucid dreams where they see vast, ghostly herds of ponies running, meet immense, cosmic representations of the princesses, or, in the most curious cases, remarkably individual experiences unique to them.

There is great debate about whether the conversion dreams represent real contact with the energies of Equestria and the princesses themselves, or whether they are just dreams and nothing more. The debate strongly mimics the real-world debate about near-death experiences.

Later developments in serum design have provided formulations of 'potion' that can be time-delayed, that can be suspended in a nanotech-framework 'cloud' that can blanket an area with a zone of 'thick air' that remains in place for hours, and of course large encapsulated serum 'bullets' that can be shot into a target to convert them. Special guns are used for this purpose.

Most of the more exotic means to disburse serum are the result of research by agents of the PER - the Ponification for the Earth's Rebirth, a fanatical terrorist organization despised by both Celestia and the Worldgovernment.

Two very unique formulations of serum were developed that should be mentioned.

The Worldgovernment of Earth had members who, despite the ample evidence that the planet was dying, and that only three generations remained to humanity before extinction, still opposed jumping to Lifeboat Equestria. They doubted Celestia's motivations, and saw her timely arrival as some sort of invasion... where taking in refugees was... somehow an act of war.

They developed Project Dagger, where their plan was to create converted, Newfoal assassins from the best government agents loyal to their mindset. A special formulation of serum was developed that was designed to prevent the alterations of the brain that removed psychopathy and violence. The notion was that, if Celestia turned out to be evil, the agents could enter Equestria and murder the princesses.

The result was disastrous. The 25 agents were successfully converted, but they all experienced powerful conversion dreams in which they spoke directly to the princesses. Afterwards, they felt completely loyal to the Crown of Equestria, and the peace and kindness it represented - despite still remaining psychpaths capable of violence and deceit.

These 25 incompletely converted agents are responsible for the existence of the terrorist PER organization. By lying to natives and newfoals, they convinced thousands that forcibly converting humans against their will was a desirable and compassionate thing to do.

The other alternative potion was developed by the HLF - the Human Liberation Front. A very violent and extremist terrorist group, the HLF believes that Equestria is biblical hell itself and Celestia the Whore Of Babylon from Revelations. They work to destroy the lawful Conversion Bureaus and to kill Equestrians and 'traitor' newfoals.

To that end, they tried their own take on the Worldgovernment's attempt to create secret pony agents. Having learned from the mistakes the Government made, they perfected the process. Their answer was to prevent conversion dreams entirely by forcing their converted agents to remain awake and conscious and unanesthetized through the entire conversion process.

Those that survived this nightmare procedure with some degree of sanity remaining became true psychopath ponies, capable of all human violence and deceit. Only eleven ever survived to serve the HLF, despite several dozen subjects. These not-ponies are like dangerous tigers or lions walking among the unsuspecting citizens of Equestria. They serve HLF interests, and are not nice in the least.

4410095
Cheers for the info, friendo.
Helps a bunch.

More things to learn!

4410344
I don't understand. I really was trying to provide a believable foundation for magic.

Maybe I failed in that, for you?

I could try again. Basically, what I am saying is that in order for magic, as we have seen it on the show (transformation of objects, teleportation, transfer of body parts, shapeshifting, becoming a cloud of energy, levitation, time travel and so forth) requires, at some level, for 'magic' to have a sort of 'library' of information about it.

I'm not saying that 'magic' is conscious, or alive as such, rather I am calling up Plato's concept of Ideals. The ancient philosopher had the notion that every object, every thing, or class of thing, had an 'Ideal' version of itself, a perfect essence of whatever it was, that existed outside reality. As if a jar, say, any jar, was a dim reflection of an eternal and perfect idea of 'jar-ness' that existed independently of any actual real thing. Every time a person made a jar, out of clay or glass or whatever, the act of creation was really a reflection of that eternal, perfect 'Ideal' of jar-ness. Same with any person, place or thing of any kind.

If there is a sort of cosmic, magical, spirit databank of all forms, shapes, and possibilities, actions or events (The 'Ideal' of eating a pie, for example) then that would mean that at some level the universe would be pseudo-predetermined.

By that, I mean that while there might be individual free will in the moment, on a cosmic scale, all possible events and things that might happen or exist are already existent, as if the universe were a big video game where all the assets are made, and there can never be any DLC, or add-ons, the universe is done, perfect, set in stone on the big level.

And that is what makes it possible for Twilight, in the first episode, to turn her parents into cacti. To transform a pony into a cactus represents reconfiguring a hell of a lot of information - the state and condition of every atom, molecule, every thing that makes the pony up. It's worse than the problem of transporters on Star Trek. And then, changing the cactus back into a pony - where did the information that makes up that pony, and all of its memories and thoughts and every detail of it come from?

It had to either be stored, in some cosmic buffer, or it had to already exist, as part of some cosmic 'Ideal' of Twilight's parent.

And again, if that is true, then you cannot have real randomness... because at some level, up in the cosmic sky, the roll of every die is already 'known'.

And if that is the case, then quantum indeterminacy - a very real part of our universe - cannot exist. Equestrian physical laws that include magic, exclude quantum mechanics. Because in Equestria, to parody Einstein, "God really does not play dice with the universe". In our universe, randomness is real, and indeterminacy is real. And it really allows plants to work, and us to work, and life to work.

So, I am defining 'magic' in my stories as a set of new physical laws where, at some level, something like Plato's Ideals, or at least a cosmic memory bank, exists. Equestria might even be a sort of simulation, say, built by an alien, superintelligent race from another universe called the... well, that may or may not be part of... something. Or not. Maybe. *cough*

And if any of this were how physics worked in Equestria, then it would explain, quite rationally, how an apple can be given wings and consciousness, and sent to fly away, or how Spike could have a zipper installed in his mouth by the wave of a horn and some mental effort on the part of Twilight.

Because the information for creating zippers and flying apples already exists, and is simply being applied, or removed, much like how a video game can change any aspect of the graphics or gameplay.

Is this useful?

In other words: Your explanation of Equestrian Magic = Ctrl + C, Ctrl + V, where the highlighted text is the desired mental/physical concept.

4411407
BUT THAS WHUT I DOOOOOOOO!

4411383
In the beginning was the Word... Processor. And lo, Clippy was absent. Hallelujah.

I happen to like textwalls giving internally consistent explanations for magic.

4412585
Of course, from one perspective, you are right I suppose.

Then again, this is a website about writing, and I am here to write - but more importantly, I truly have something to say.

To fear words here, is like fearing chocolate in a candy shop.

4410095 Very different from how things work in I am Immune, but an interesting read all the same.

4414978

But I'm allergic to chocolate!

I will try to write in cinnamon mint swirl, then.

On the off chance I ever write a story about ponies about humans becoming ponies about using this grape juice potion... copy and saving this post I did.

4414914 Speaking of which, would you mind continuing that story?

4410095

This is all very interesting, both of your big posts. You get a lot of it out of your books, but there's some new information in there and in any case it's great to read it all as a whole, written differently. Thanks for writing/posting it here.

4416262 I will... eventually...

4410095

In order to reconstruct, with a spell, an apple into an orange on a whim, the thaumatic field has to 'know' or 'understand' what apples and oranges are, and apply an almost Platonic Ideal in order to permit such a spell to work. This means that for magic, outcomes are in principle known, and true randomness cannot normally exist (Exception: chaos magic as exemplified by Discord).

May I offer an alternative explanation?

4424983
For your own story universe, certainly! There are many takes on the Bureau, and that is what here is for!

4410095

I belive their is a sun.

AND a moon.

4425448

My understanding of magic is that magic is like programming. This is not so much a description of my head canon as it is for a description of my understanding of magic.

(Tech data in this paragraph, Skip if you like)
Take a website as an example: the code written for the website looks nothing like it, but the end result is almost always the same regardless of what browser you are using to view it. Also, many websites are incomplete – loading strictly the main.html completely separate from the server would result in a very broken page. Most professional sites use internal links to databases on the server. The backend code for forums for instance, formats the user's post into something HTML readable, then adds that to a database along with information on who posted it and when. Loading the page is even crazier because it runs that database through code that formats each post into whatever style is desired, then fetches the user's avatar and user page address and parses this information for each post in the forum. Most sites generate their pages in some fraction of a second.

If I remember correctly, Twilight was trying to turn an apple into an orange, she missed, hitting a blue jay instead. In BASH format, her spell would have been written like this “Transform --FireTarget --Standard orange” “Transform” is the spell or intention that she is intending to do, “--FireTarget” is the act of shooting the spell out of herself like loosing an arrow rather than targeting a specific something by its unique pattern, “--Standard” means using the standard operation option, which I will explain in a moment, and “orange” is of course, the object into which TARGET shall become. In this case, the concept of the orange is not a complete pattern held within the caster, but is more like a link or a torrent seed file in that it contains just enough information to go seeking the full pattern of an orange from the nearest source.

So what is that “--Standard” option? It is a collection of if/then cases that for lack of a better word regulate intention. For unicorns it starts with the concept of “do no harm” this is why the blue jay became a flying blue jay orange rather than a dead fruit. It is a far more advanced and involved process than any computer today has been programed to act. It would act like the result of a non-existent pseudo-dialogue between spell and the spirit of the target of the spell, something like this:

”Wow, I hit a blue jay, well, I'm going to make you look like this, ok?”
“Wait! No, I like my wings and my chirping! I'd rather just be a blue jay.”
“Oh, ok then. I got a job to do, so how about we keep the wings and add a pseudo beak here, and basically you'll be an orange shaped blue jay, how about that?”
“Well, fair enough.”

Obviously, one could resist a spell completely if they had the willpower to do so, but that is for another discussion. It also creates an “uninstall file” for every spell so that whatever changes were done, can be easily undone.

Most of the energy drain on a unicorn is in the bulky nature of common spell casting, which is like a windows user opening one program to download a youtube video then opening up another to rip the MP3 from it, then opening a third program to edit out the silent portions of the MP3, because common spells are little self contained machines that do one task. Stringing them together can get a desired result, but the over head of each spell's safety features and their jury-rigged connection to each spell down the line make them exhausting to use. Unicorns who are more devoted to magic see through the “complete” nature of these “magical simple machines” to the confusing and intimidating functions that are more closely related to programming code than programs that “do anything”.

During her entrance exam, young Twilight was at a complete loss for what to do to the egg. At some point in her studying Twilight would have learned that doing magic, much like using a computer, does not require the caster to have a complete and utter exhaustive understanding of absolutely everything in order to do it. What she was doing that day was essentially accessing her higher (spiritual) knowledge of magic, but kept bumping into the reality filter of “I don't actually know that” when she came across magical knowledge that she had not ever learned in her life as Twilight. The shock of the rainboom allowed just enough distraction for her frantically searching mind to disregard her reality filters long enough to establish a perfect connection between body and spirit. When this happened all safety protocols went out the window as well as all links, everything she did in that moment came from within.

Your premise is that some absolute of things must exist within the forces of magic to produce things perfectly, but this is assuming that magic is a completed thing like a wondrous item in a D&D campaign where a staff of fireballs will always and must only produce fireballs, not burning hands, not mage light, or any other fire related spell, just fireballs because that is what is written. Even though I understand the literary necessity of using quantum mechanics to describe how magic effects things earth side, I feel like it has put a stop to exploring the nature of magic within TCB stories, because any attempt to explain magic here would first require an explanation of the underlying physics of Equestria.

4425826 That's some real unicorn wizard stuff there. Neat.

4425826
I too take the concept that magic in my vision of Equestria is, essentially, programming. Calling subroutines, even constructing new code.

I just also take the stance that the assets the entire running program uses exist in memory, or are loadable from... disk? Storage? - and that is what I mean by my Platonic Ideals. I think we're really on the same page here, it's just an issue of metaphors.

Plato didn't have the concept of computers, but much of what he suggests sounds very much like a description of simulationism and the world being virtual. (Plato's Allegory Of The Cave). I think, because of too much thinking on this, I have reached a point where the notion of Platonic Ideals and assets in memory are... just about the same thing to me.

I need to be careful of that, clearly. Generalize too much and nobody knows what the hell you are talking about anymore, huh?

4426375 Actually, you'll have to forgive me – I know of Plato's cave, but I had dismissed most of his discussion on Forms. A perfect concept makes sense in the realm of emotions, or more precisely emotional interactions, but makes no sense to me for physical objects, which at least for the version I read, was where the focus was. I'll have to go and read about it again.

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Slightly off topic, but this discussion reminded me of the magic system in the extremely funny Off to Be the Wizard, first of the Magic 2.0 series by Scott Meyer, of the Basic Instructions webcomic fame.

In it, magic is hacking a secret but editable text file that describes the Universe. Anyone who discovers the existence of the file can change anything in it, including deleting the whole thing if they so wish, and those are the mages. The funny thing (just one among many) is, the file isn't a detailed description of everything, but more like a videogame save file, or maybe database, recording things such as the high level attributes (height, weight, age, coordinates, altitude, possessions etc.) of every human being and everything else in reality. So, mages act by writing scripts in actual computers (whichever one they actually use, be it a Mac, a Windows box, a Commodore 64 or whatever) that monitor over those parameters and edit them in predictable ways. Scripts can be simple, such as "whenever the byte that records my mobile phone's battery charge drops below 0x7F, increase it by 0x30" or "drop my body's age by one whenever it automatically increases", or extremely complex, allowing to turn an ordinary wand or cloaks into "magical" ones by scripting in special abilities that are activated by specific words or movements. Also, time travel is achieved by merely editing your "current time" field, and so mages chose to live wherever and whenever they like the most, even building their own thematically-inspired micro societies at key historical points.

Given the high level of the savegame/database, they all know they're characters in a simulation, have no idea what the underlying code is, understand the file being reachable and editable by them is probably a bug, and thus even the evil ones take care to not break things lest they get erased. That said, some are quite greedy, and script bugs happen. Lots of hilarity evidently ensue.

I cannot recommend this book enough. When I read it a few years ago I couldn't stop laughing. Give it a try if you'd like some light humor and a few fun ideas on the concept of magic as programming.

4437406

This is relevant to my interests. Thanks for the rec!

4410095
4411322
Loving all of the exposition, Chatoyance! The magic is particularly interesting.

I'm also glad that in this formulation, it appears that you've universalized the biologic/thaumic inimicacy - the primates-only thing always struck me as a bit too specific. Not quite a breach of Universal Fire, but certainly requiring a lot more suspension of disbelief than any of the other aspects of your TCB canon. Sucks for the animals, though. Loving that it all relies on (at least possibly) real science that acts coherently with your understanding of magic!

The coherency and internal consistency is just really amazing, I have to say. I knew you put a lot of thought into this sort of thing, but this is truly above and beyond.

4437601
Animals... what are left... eventually are transformed by the Barrier. It takes until almost year three before the Barrier learns how to do it right, but after that all the mutie-rats and deformed other rodents, cats and other animals get converted into nearest equivalent Equestrian animals.

4438010

That's what I'd recalled, but surely they have the same problems with quantum collapse as primates do? Shouldn't the plants and animals be dead from the radiation by the time the barrier physically reaches them?

4438872
The radiation is distributed in a changing fractal pattern, there are temporary regions where anyone could walk up to the Barrier and touch it. But your point is correct... a lot of mutie-rats are going to end up in spots of strong thaumatism and die. It is, therefore a crapshoot. I hadn't realized that until your statement.

4439032
Ah, gotcha. Alas.

4439068

A gotcha that made me think, though! Always a delight, good Articulator!

4439141

Always happy to oblige. Ah, this feels a bit more like the good old days.

Given the topicality of coherent magic systems, have you ever read, or I ever recommended (my memory is appalling) anything by Brandon Sanderson? He writes possibly the best and most internally consistent magic systems that I've ever seen, as well as not so much having Chekhov's guns as a Chekhov's armory.

4437406 That sounds pretty awesome. I have a minor obsession with the Commodore 64, so hearing about someone using it to hack the universe gives me tingles. When you say script bugs, I keep imagining a The Physics Engine Has Quit scenario.

However, I feel I need to point out that I said “magic like programming” not “magic as programming” to me magic is an expansion of physics but also the act of doing: if a person wants to design a very tall building that will not fall over or get crushed under it's own weight, they have to understand physics, but the actual creation is done by others. Magic has this academic side too, but its primary purpose is in the act of doing. A unicorn could pull energy from themselves and the surrounding area and will it to become matter that is a building, then instead of relying on dead-physics, the structure would be imbued to have the same effects, so instead of having that ball thing in the basement to keep it from falling over, it would actively lean appropriately into the wind on its own or more likely, defuse the nature of the wind around it by tunneling it around the building or through the same space as the building but in another dimension that would not affect its lean. Or even more entertaining, the walls of the building would widen the space between themselves microscopically enough to let the wind blow through allowing the air within the building to continue being part of nature rather than closed off from it.

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The way I see it: primates are too complicated to be converted correctly by the automated process of the barrier. Notice I said complicated not complex. All animals are complex compared to plants, but the brain structure of cats and dogs are straight forward. The ability for “higher animals” to lie to themselves is a metaphorical tangling of cables in the brain that when are pulled through the limited aperture of the barrier get stuck thus burning up in the interactions between the dimensions. I figure that through DNA this complicated structure exists in every part of the body resulting in burning from any amount of contact.

As I pointed out with my magic explanation above, the living nature of thaumatic programming should be able to identify that it was unable to change animals at first and not attempt to do so, however, it would always burn primates because of their complicated nature. To illustrate this: imagine anchoring a few large tubes of glass in a gutter lined up perfectly with the walls, then flooding that gutter with water rushing a few hundred miles an hour. Because the glass is aligned with simplicity, the water would part through it and around it with equal pressure and go on its way. The glass might suffer some microscopic damage, but is otherwise unbroken. Now, if the same was done with large glass tubes that twist and turn and are designed to be a pipe sculpture, then when hit with the water, even if the openings are aligned to it, some water may be piped up through the sculpture, but the resistance of these forces for anything more than just a few degrees would create a build up in a matter of seconds that would make that water rushing at hundreds of miles an hour act as solid as a fleet of semi-trucks.

In my research, I have held that this is the same reason why human bodies are not able to channel great magical effects upon the world. Impressive feats can be done magically, but the amount of power/current that they require is so great that if that amount was forced through a human body it would pop as comically as a low rated fuse getting hit by lightning.

4439268

It's an impressive justification, but I'm not sure the complexity difference is quite so large. Mammals on the whole have an awful lot of similarities, no?

I know it is, in the end, a plot device designed to enforce emigration in humans without killing all animals, but it just doesn't sit well with me to make the distinction between lower animals and primates. They all exist on a continuum, not in a binary.

I recognize that debating this is useless - what's done is done and this has been used in too many stories to ever be rendered non-canon. It just niggles because everything else fits so well, and this really does not - it's glaringly obvious that it had a Doylian explanation before a Watsonian one.

4442928

I have to agree with you, it is a bit of an error. Much like the depiction of the last hours of the tip of South Africa at Zero Point, it is wrong, but usefully so.

I do try, hard, to create a world that makes suspension of disbelief as easy and natural as possible. I try to be self-consistent, to make every aspect support the whole, and to be consistent in whatever given rules or science I present.

But, you are correct - having the remaining small animals of the world be such a problem for the thaumatic program of the Barrier to solve, compared to, say, humans, may be stretching things a little. But, without that conceit, we just have folks either fleeing into, or away from, an advancing wall, and we would never have First Meal As A Pony amidst the emotional drama and existential self examinations of life inside a Bureau.

It is a bending of the consistency to allow the premise to be properly explored, I think.

Sometimes you have to just go with Transporters and Warp Drive, and say to hell with complexity and Einstein, so you can get to the Vulcans at all.

4443428

Of course, I understand. Plot and theme do come first.

The most internally consistent method to rectify it would be to make the barrier as inimicable to all forms of life (or at least animal life) as it is for primates, but that does cause extra PR damage. Damage that CelestAI and the Optimalverse can absorb, but TCB less so.

And it would wreck the ecosystem of the Exponential Lands, unfortunately.

The positive would be, in a hypothetical world where the canon could be altered, that it would seem a lot less like specifically targeting humans for deletion. I doubt many haters actually get deep enough in to understand the Barrier properly, but I could imagine it being part of an argument for misanthropy.

Ah well, it can't be helped.

4443428 4443793
Here's an alternative:

The barrier kills animals and plants as much as it does human beings and other primates, but is smart enough to recognize that piece of "recently killed stuff" that it just crossed over as being a dead apple tree, that other one as being a dead dog etc., so it just consumes that matter and pops up a new Equestrian-apple tree, Equestrian-dog etc. on the other side. It could do the same for dead primates, popping up a new pony once going over a dead primate body, but the status of the new being as a new being would be much more noticeable given the newly built pony would have no memories. Thus, for dead primate bodies it's programmed to not output anything.

Now, wouldn't someone notice their dog came out differently? Probably. But that could be more easily explained away as the change being "more profound" (ahem) under a "barrier conversion".

I think this retconning would allow most of the setting to remain exactly the same, requiring at most slight changes to a few paragraphs here and there.

4443900

That's a really great idea!
I especially like how it utilizes the Platonic forms.

Sharp Logic, you are just the best.

Side note as a new moderator:
Why does the delete button need to be right next to the reply button?
I am going to have to be very careful.

4443928

I especially like how it utilizes the Platonic forms.

Ah! I hadn't thought of that, but it could help! How about this: it easily recognizes Platonic forms because those are "simple", but for Platonic mixtures, such as human-built artifacts, which are "complex", it has to learn, which is why it takes a few years for it to manage to start outputting buildings, books, sound devices etc.

Sharp Logic, you are just the best.

Hehe, thanks. I try.

4443793 The problem with understanding the barrier is that, although it often has common themes, tends to change from author to author.

In one story it only effects humans and anything they created, in another it may only effect humans but only effect truly artificial things we've made (like plastics and nylons) but leave buildings standing (since they're just made of naturally occurring elements) while another may have it obliterate absolutely everything it touches that isn't from Equestria, including animals.

I'm fairly sure both TCB and ACB have stories with barriers that do the above listed, though the last seems to be the rarest.

So people getting confused by the barrier should be expected given there is little consensus on what it does.

4443937
Ah, that is an interesting development. I don't explicitly recall the Barrier ever outputting buildings or non-natural constructs, though. I would expect that a lack of 1:1 translation in most advanced technology (which almost everything would be, by that point, if only in material makeup) would make automatic conversion too difficult to achieve at all. I suppose both ways are possible.

Edit: Fleshing this out, the lack of magical Forms corresponding to most human tech would make automated magical conversion impossible, I think, unless there was a conscious element to the Barrier. I doubt a simple magical learning algorithm with predefined behaviors could intuit function from most of our modern electronics, though materials would be more of a grey area.

4444164
Of course, you are correct. However, at this point, Chatoyance has a 'verse more or less to herself (with additions from some of the other authors now in this group, iirc) so if people come in criticizing her work specifically, expecting them to be aware of her specific variant is reasonable, if unlikely to be the case.

4444203

True.

It's distinct enough that TVtropes lists her verse seperately.

4444236
Indeed they do. Well, I mean, she has written give or take a million words in it. They hand out TVTropes pages for a magnitude less. If she didn't have at least a sublisting, it would be necessary to create it.

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4439268
Here's an alternative. It was mentioned that magic works on absolutes, pulling from either a database or a perfect idealized concept of 'x'. There's a simple reason why humans and developed primates are effectively not embraced by magic: the perfect concept or data on higher primates doesn't exist in Equestria-verse. It is not recognized. The other animals have an equestrian counterpart and are thus acclimated to magic. Dogs exist without quantum indeterminacy in Equestria, so terran dogs will be recognized as well. There are no humans in the grand design/ evolution/ mainframe of the EQ-realm. They are an anomaly, an error to be deleted, a corrupted file to be cleared, a hole needing to be patched up, the peace of the puzzle that needs to be reshaped to fit or scrapped entirely.

The way magic is working is also starting to remind me a little of the D-reaper from Digimon season 3. It is made to delete programs that have gone beyond their original function. According to magic, earth's animals, plants & structures have not gone beyond original function, but humans have. They do not fit, so they have to go. No malice or intent. Just doing it's function.

4410095
On a separate note, there are some things I would like to ask so that I could make my stories more accurate to this universe.

Firstly, my stories make use of something that was briefly demonstrated in the show: black crystal. S3 premier, it stopped Shining Armor from using any spells when it coated his horn and it prevented Twi from teleporting off the castle. I theorise that black crystal may have anti-thaumetic properties, or properties that work by a different, incompatible set of thaumic laws or codes (dark magic). It would repel and disrupt any spells cast, including being free of telekinetic grips , cutting through force fields or being used as a magic inhibitor. Such a function would make the first anti-thaumetic weapons, or the first anti-equestrian weapons.

In my planned story, I have a human character that reinforces her skeleton w/ black crystal, making her immune to spells. My question is, if she were given the serum, what would the effects be on the serum itself and on her changing body? Would it not work? Would it only partially function? Would she change but get internally maimed by the crystals? Would she be made into a pony but without that celestial lifeblood infusion?

Second question: Would a newfoal injected w/ the HLF serum be reverted back to their human mindset, the nanites recognizing that the brain structure needed to remain the same and go about altering it back?

Third: Since Twi is now an alicorn, does that make her a physical energy construct too? Would she still feel pain and be injured or is she a demigod? Would she even be interacting with the human realm? I ask cause I plan on her getting in a nasty fight to "save" the protagonist from herself, and need to know if said protagonist stands a chance.

Fourth: How would conversion effect various human ailments? What if the convert had injuries? Would they be healed? If they were missing limbs, would they be regrown? If they had AIDS, would they be cured? If they had a genetic flaw like lou gehrig's disease or cancer, would those be gone? Would it affect mental illnesses like schizophrenia or dementia? Would it alter other mental statuses such as the autism spectrum? Would conditions that affect tactile responses like CIPA (no pain sensation) remain?

Complex questions I know but I am legitimately curious.

4446594

Hmm, that's certainly a reasonable alternative, though unless primates were categorically cut out of the Equestrian canon (if they ever existed at all), the effect would have to be narrowed down to just humans.

4446594

In my planned story, I have a human character that reinforces her skeleton w/ black crystal, making her immune to spells. My question is, if she were given the serum, what would the effects be on the serum itself and on her changing body? Would it not work? Would it only partially function? Would she change but get internally maimed by the crystals? Would she be made into a pony but without that celestial lifeblood infusion?

If we take the supposition that black crystal nullifies or inhibits magic, then the human character is almost certainly dead. And not nice dead, with a clean-cut corpse, but bad dead, like Billy Cullpepper from 27 Ounces.

The serum would begin to work, altering and changing the flesh. But when the thaumatically powered nanomachines approached the bones, and the dark crystal there, they would slow down and cease function. The human on the table would be partially transformed - flesh all doughy, internal organs all partially dissolved and reforming... and then the process would gradually, slowly, horribly stop. Fortunately, they would likely be in a Bureau, which means anesthesia... but if they woke up... there are not enough screams to measure the agony.

It would be a slow, horrible, terrible death by partial transformation. The incompatible components would disagree and the human would die.

Second question: Would a newfoal injected w/ the HLF serum be reverted back to their human mindset, the nanites recognizing that the brain structure needed to remain the same and go about altering it back?

It... doesn't work that way.

The HLF technique uses the a derivative of the same ponification serum that the Worldgovernment developed as a 'just in case' measure against Celestia. The modified serum prevents the converted brain from having compassion and empathy increased. The result is a pony that has the human capacity for atrocity, psychopathy and murder - basically, the human capacity for evil. But it can only be used on humans, to convert them.

Both the Worldgov and the HLF used confirmed psychopaths - agents, like secret agents - that could do any messy, murderous job required. But the Worldgov agents (Project Dagger) had Conversion Dreams and ended up loyal to Celestia because she offered them a world they could believe in. Those new ponies with human traits became the leaders of the PER. They lie, and tell their minions that Celestia secretly wants potion thrown on everybody against their will.

The HLF learned from this failure. They found a solution. Keep the converting agents awake and unanesthetized through the entire transformation. Out of the dozens and dozens they tried, eleven lived through the horrific agony of conversion without anesthesia... or falling unconscious even for a moment. Those new ponies were truly, diabolically useful as infiltrators and assassins. They are all totally evil bastards, made more so because of what they went through.

But such Not-Ponies cannot be retroactively made. You have to convert a human, you cannot fuck up a working newfoal. Newfoals are fully formed Equestrians, and their compassion, empathy and infinite Dunbar Number cannot be destroyed without killing them. The HLF have tried. Newfoals are finished creatures. You cannot unmake them. You cannot cure them of kindness and being decent people. It's intrinsic to their ability to survive in a universe where friendship is a literal physical law of the universe.

Yes, that means that the Not-Ponies will not live the full 350 years normal newfoals get - the loss of the kindness component drastically shortens their lifespans. They are incompatible with Equestrian physics, and suffer ailments from that.

Third: Since Twi is now an alicorn, does that make her a physical energy construct too? Would she still feel pain and be injured or is she a demigod? Would she even be interacting with the human realm? I ask cause I plan on her getting in a nasty fight to "save" the protagonist from herself, and need to know if said protagonist stands a chance.

That is a question I have trouble answering. If Twilight is an alicorn, a true alicorn, and not just a unicorn with wings, then she would be, in my vision of Equestria, an energy being. She would not be biological. She would be like Celestia and Luna.

But on the show, alicorn Twilight has nothing about her that would connote demigod qualities. Her mane is still hair, and not waving, glowing energy like Luna and Celestia. She doesn't seem to be the same species of creature at all. She is presented as just a unicorn with wings.

This may suggest that the show has two grades of alicorn - princesses, and immortals. Celestia and Luna (and Discord) are immortals. But perhaps Cadence and Twilight are not. Perhaps they are just princesses. Highly powerful, politically royal, but still made of meat.

Fourth: How would conversion effect various human ailments? What if the convert had injuries? Would they be healed? If they were missing limbs, would they be regrown? If they had AIDS, would they be cured? If they had a genetic flaw like lou gehrig's disease or cancer, would those be gone? Would it affect mental illnesses like schizophrenia or dementia? Would it alter other mental statuses such as the autism spectrum? Would conditions that affect tactile responses like CIPA (no pain sensation) remain?

Conversion has, in all stories, not just mine, always cured everything. Because the body is being literally reconstructed at the molecular level, and then those molecules are (in my stories) being converted into E-Matter, Equestrian atoms (they are cubical and very different than earth atoms), the change is total.

In some stories, freshly headless bodies, In the process of just starting to die, have been converted. The result is a completely blank pony who is alive, aware, and perfect, but like a foal, with no memories at all.

During conversion, limbs grow back, organs grow back, even injuries so terrible that the person has seconds to live are cured, and the result is a perfectly healthy pony.

Because the brain is just another organ, part of the body, it too is rebuilt and repaired. That means that all mental illness is cured, all genetic problems solved (Equestrians use different genetics, so human genetic flaws are not even an issue), all wounds and injuries are healed. The body is entirely rebuilt. The result is always a healthy, perfect pony that is set at the Equestrian equivalent of the age of 21, or less (roughly 62 years for the long-lived Equestrian species).

So very old people become young adults again. Humans younger than around 21 are formed into ponies with ages roughly equivalent to what they are when they are converted. So a baby, for example, becomes a foal.

Any Newfoal can be certain that whatever pony they become, their new body will be young, and flawless. They will have at least three hundred years of life ahead of them (350 is the maximum), and they will be starting with a body and mind as perfect as an Equestrian can be.

There are a few changes to the brain - compassion and empathy are vastly increased, as is the Dunbar Number. In humans the Dunbar is around 150 for most people - that number represents the maximum number of individuals a human brain can hold and keep as being 'us' as opposed to 'them'. It is why humans are so tribal about things. Because nature says so.

Equestrians have a Dunbar number set at infinity. Anyone and everyone can potentially be 'us', part of the 'in-group' and thus 'family' or part of the herd. They have no limit to kindness wired into them.

These are the only changes made to the brain. But... they affect a lot of things. The person is still themselves, but they will find they care too much to do truly evil things. Hurting others is like hurting a best friend - even if the other is a perfect stranger. It's like having your inner demons and pain stolen away, leaving only the angels behind. It's like not being miserable any more.

4446744 Hey Chat, I've been running through my head in a scenario where a PER type attempts a drive-by conversion of a human by shooting them with what amounts to a tranquilizer gun filled with potion (concentrated to ensure proper dosage), but a pony, simply seeing a car window roll down and a gun-like object pointed at another person, jumps in the way, and takes the needle, getting a full dosage of potion themselves.

I doubt the effects would be overly adverse, but how does a pony body generally metabolize extra potion, including anaesthetics that'd be included in the potion?

4446768

The serum wouldn't activate, for one. It would recognize the absence of human proteins and lipids and wouldn't even start. The thaumatic couplement powering the potion would not adversely affect the pony. A unicorn would feel it, I think, and would probably feel hyper and maybe hopped-up for a few hours.

But the anesthetic would probably work. Reason? Celestia based Equestrian life on earth life, and her pony brains are optimized and uplifted versions of ancient equine species. So the basic pattern, the connectome, is pretty much there. Anesthetics seem to work by decoupling communication between the various modules that collectively generate the self through a feedback loop. Equestrian brains work the same basic way, so... I think the pony would be out for at least an hour.

Ponies didn't evolve, they were created, so they don't have the allergy issues that earth life has. So no need to worry about allergen types with the anesthesia. It would just work, with no side effects... besides maybe being groggy for a while.

The nanomachines in the suspension would become inert initially. They would likely pile up in the kidneys, which would be a problem, with possible pain, until they quorum-sensed each other's presence. At that point, they would initiate self destruct and convert themselves into harmless sugars and chelates and pass in the urine. The pain would last a day, tops.

This would be my reasoning.

4446816 An hour long nap, and that nasty feeling of a kidneystone forming a little bit later, briefly, maybe a little bit of bruising where the needle entered. The kidneystone analogy makes me cringe, though now I know what sort of life I should have said pony to have lived before they drank the purple stuff.

4410095 'Ey Chat, I was thinking over what you said about Mercer getting converted and as such me and Trondason looked over this, when I noticed you made a thread detailing the serum. 'Cause I gotta say the idea interested me but upon review we came to the conclusion Mercer can't be truly converted, but I digress, while looking through your explanation Trondason found a few discrepancies in it that either you forgot to mention or haven't thought to cover. We're wondering if you're open to his nitpickings?

4447617

I am, but be kind and not attacking. Understand: I have always had a very poor memory. In my childhood, I used to be able to re-read the same fifteen beloved science fiction books every year because I had completely forgotten them except for the dim awareness of the titles. It was like reading them for the first time, over and over.

I often cannot remember my own birth day. I cannot retain any set of numbers except my social security, and that only because of college (they asked for it as identification all the freaking time, or did in my day).

So, keep in mind your nitpicks may be more about me not remembering accurately something already stated long ago, or me getting confused, than anything else. I don't usually pour over my story bible notes when I answer questions here because... I have a life, and re-re-relearning stuff is time consuming. I save it for when I write a story alone.

Yes, every time I write a story, I have to literally study my own crap because I have forgotten it all.

So, just keep this in mind, and be friendly and gentle. Benefit of the doubt - because from birth, my memory sucked ass.

I'm just doin' my best, you know?

4448184 Aight then he should be by shortly to drop off his nitpickings.