The Writing Process 279 members · 881 stories
Comments ( 16 )
  • Viewing 1 - 50 of 16

To be fair, I watch the show because it's a nice form of escapism. Most of what is occurring around me is intense and insane, yet the show - to me anyway - is:

  • Low commitment;
  • Funny;
  • Sneaky about how it slides in 80s pop culture references;
  • Fast and loose with cartoon physics (which face it, is already pretty loose); and
  • Somehow manages what I thought impossible for many years - being able to have a comedy with a message in it that is not patronizing.

I agree. It's sweet, gentle, a hoot to watch (forgetting the movie's shoehorned jokes), and a lovely escape from the drudgery of everyday life. The piecake scene in Friendship Games has me in stitches no matter how many times I watch it.

6643396

People enjoy stories that have meaning and depth, where heroes and villains have objective senses of right and wrong. They even enjoy stories in which characters learn valuable lessons and become better people. But when people read purely for pleasure, do they enjoy it when a story tries to proselytize its actual readers?

I wonder if it's even more complicated.
What if even if a writer isn't trying to send a message?
Or if the reader sees a message that's not there, or not what the writer intends?

I know from years of doing 2d and 3d artwork that viewers don't walk up to a piece of artwork with totally blank minds.
No, they use their own backgrounds to help interpret artwork. So they might be seeing messages that aren't there.
That could be a problem with the artwork that it's not made with a clear message in mind.

It's quite possible that writers can be sending messages using cultural tropes, and not know it.
Also depending on the reader's background, the message whether over or not could be highly offensive even if the intent wasn't.

For some people, MLP might be cartoon ponies doing cartoon stuff and they're fine with that.

For other, the messages about friendship are fine.

For a few, they see the matriarchal society and the bias toward females shows a hatred to patriarchy.
I guarantee that there are folks out there that think that way.

Scifipony is correct, we need to be careful if we are going to send a message through our writing.

I wonder even if we don't intend to send messages, are we still sending messages?
When the reader reads the story, are they interpreting what we say they way we want or in a different way?

I won't even get into Propaganda which is changing and controlling people's minds.
We as writers use all sorts of methods to control readers.
Of course, readers surrender control to a story so they can enjoy it.

It might be quite possible that any story could be a message fiction depending on the reader's background.

6643396 Personally I found this post to be a bit... Confusing.

However that might just be because I don't write stories to convey a message. I write because I have images or characters in my head that I want to share/explore and putting them and the events they go through down on paper is enjoyable for me.

6643396
6643424
6643504
6643510
If you set out to send a message in a story, 9/10 times whatever point you had will be muted. Write a good story first, any message you want to tell will come out naturally. Just by you being you.

I've been told, that my stories have themes of hope in the face of adversity, and condemn people who see an average, unremarkable life as a bd thing. I certainly BELIEVE these things, but I've never written a story to send that message.

mushroompone
Group Admin

6643396
There's actually a slightly more "authorly" term for this: low concept.

I often talk about the difference between high concept and low concept ideas. High concept is a sliiiiiightly more well-known term, and it describes a plot. A lot of sci-fi short stories are known are "high concept pieces"-- they're about plot, not characters. And, sure, they're fun for a time, but there aren't many high concept stories you could stretch into a full length novel WITHOUT introducing low-concept elements.

Low concept refers to the message. It's about story elements which are not obvious, which lurk in subtleties and characterization.

Take one of my favorite films: Groundhog Day.

The high concept blurb is obvious: a man lives the same crummy day over and over again until he can get it right.

It's brief, accurate, and yet reveals very little about the journey that Phil Connors will experience.

The low concept blurb, then, follows as such: a man is forced to confront his own humanity, attempts to understand the nature of the universe, and tries to accept himself.

This blurb is also an accurate, complete description of the story.

This is all to say, of course, that any good story includes high and low concept elements. One without the other is pretty boring haha. Mlp is neat bc we see at least some small amount of character development in every episode, pretty unique among even adult shows.

It should be a goal of every author to create a tale of both high and low concepts. Filling in low concepts can make the story, but I actually start with them. Don't treat it like shoehorning in a message. Treat it like writing a separate story-- one purely about the journey your character experiences inside their head. This is the true journey your readers will experience, since they can do it without even crossing their threshold.

I encourage you all to dissect the stories you love and separate them into high and low concept. You can even do it with your favorite fanfictions!! It's a great exercise in understanding character development and successful storytelling.

6643532
Terrific advice, thank you! I currently work with an underlying theme or message, but the creative focus is on the journey, not the message. If anything I have trouble with wanting to paint scenes too much and create a lot of dialogue.

I love the article and the helpful advice, thank you!

mushroompone
Group Admin

6643750
I think I didn't explain quite as thoroughly as I should have.

A message can be concealed in a theme. These are usually pretty good stories. I'd say the "message" of Groundhog Day is something like "being a good person also makes you a happier person." It's a pretty cheesy message if that's how you end your story (for example... A letter format, which states what the character learned).

A well-written message IS buried in theme, and what's great about it is that it can be interpreted in many ways. I already consider myself to be a good enough and happy enough person, so I didn't catch that particular message from Groundhog Day. I did get that trying too hard to be likeable can lead to the opposite effect... You're pretty hated.

A general theme is a good place to start for character development, and character development begets lessons no matter how hard you try. The lesson of Moby Dick is "don't let jealousy consume you." The message of Frankenstein is "take responsibility for your actions." Every story conceals a lesson somewhere, even if you're not trying to. The most important thing to do, as a writer, is accept this truth and work towards not giving in to cheesy lessons.

I honestly despise the letter format of mlp episodes bc it's a very direct way to order your audience to behave a certain way. It could be considered "propaganda" by the loosest of definitions (propaganda to generally be a good person), honestly. It's necessary for its intended audience, of course, but that's the thing I do my best to remove from the fictions I write.

There are ways to communicate a "lesson" without sounding like a pretentious piece of crap, but the only way to do so is to leave your work open to interpretation. There are roughly nine trillion ways to interpret most works of classic literature (and you can find them without looking hard at all hahaha), and still none of them could capture the author's true intention. Only with things like mlp (today I learned...) do you get something so rigidly closed.

Trying to keep this format definitely means Doom. But trying to create something that is "lessonless" is a futile mission haha

mushroompone
Group Admin

6643862
Absolutely!! Preachy fiction is the worst... the work of Ayn Rand springs to mind. Her novels read like philosophical essays with a loose, plot-like structure. Just... write the essay, please!

6643396
Hat tip for citing my article on The Message in fiction; I will link back. At its best, "the message" is a subtle earworm you want to infect somebody with, at worse it is "proselytizing". My Be an Author blog series is about being a successful author, so I suggest the subtle route.

6643504
Seveno, your analysis distills and expands all the subtlety I briefly tried to imply in my article.

When the reader reads the story, are they interpreting what we say they way we want or in a different way?

Mostly the latter.

I've had voluminous discussions with my pre-reader DoContra on the subject, referring to the critical essay La Mort de l'Auteur that essentially states that a published work in no longer under the control of the author, but is subject to the interpretations of the readers and critics who will see in the work what they bring to it in their head. A work's true meaning and interpretation is therefore subject to the reader's cultural biases, desires, and indigestion. Sadly, the message may never be received. That doesn't mean crafting one should be abandoned, just worked on with appropriate expectations.

Artwork (I'm a photographer as well as an author) is subject to personal interpretation even more than the written word. This makes crafting "the message" even more inexact. It forces the artist to appropriate and paint or draw in cultural cues and tropes to ensure at least a modicum of the message makes it through. However,

I wonder even if we don't intend to send messages, are we still sending messages?

Yes.

There's the rub. Even abstract art is subject to interpretation. Cute fuzzy unicorns and escapist fiction as detailed by Saintkartano will be interpreted. Humans are like that.

To riff on the implications in yours and others' replies, you could be inadvertently offensive if you don't at least try to control your message. Would it be offensive if I posted a picture of an ancient Asian temple that included swastikas in the brickwork? It was an ancient peace symbol prior to its cultural-appropriation by the Nazis. Should I photoshop them out to prevent an inadvertent message?

Likewise, as Robipony said,

I don't write stories to convey a message. I write because I have images or characters in my head that I want to share/explore and putting them and the events they go through down on paper is enjoyable for me.

You can write without thinking about the message. If you abdicate your option to do so, at worst you'll subliminally add one, or write about your biases, which could be a good thing or a bad thing; it might even bring on self-growth when you read what you wrote and go, "Whoa, where'd that come from?"

More likely, you'll simply appropriate someone else's message. Writing in the MLP universe almost always appropriates a feminist message. As a feminist SF writer, that's what attracted me to the series and gets inserted by default when I write here.

So, yes, even if you don't have a message you are probably sending one.

No, I don't always start with a message. I usually find one by the time I finish the story, though.

6643608
"The Message" as described in my original article is not the same as the high/low concept you described. In your groundhog example, I'd posit the message is actually "be kind to everyone" or alternatively, "karma's a bitch." If I were to start with that message, I might come up with the plot idea you refer to as the concept.

In my original article, I refer to a story that I started by wanting to message how uncomfortable child-separation as an immigration policy made me. I then thought of characters (an OC, Songbird Serenade who's an immigrant in my MLP universe, and Spike who is obviously separated from his parents) and the plot of the story colalesced about them. MLP IMHO is the result of the desire to message about girl-power, friendship, and kindness. The message and the concept are different things.

  • Viewing 1 - 50 of 16