Linky, with what GreyGuard wants out of it in this post here.

Areas of Concern
- This is one of the more violent Lunaverse stories, though the violence is mostly "sanitary," not anything worse than stuff you might have seen in Avatar: the Last Airbender or Legend of Korra, so I personally am fine with it.
- Alluding to the idea Tirek escaping his prison sometime in the near future. Not sure if we're going to do that - I don't object to it but it's just so very far down the line.
- Corona gets another big minion in the form of Mukemmel, a very powerful jinn. I have no personal objections to this, either.
- The story is a bit rushed in places and could use some beefing up.

The current date is June 4th; discussion on the story ends on June 9th. At present I don't see a problem with canonization.

I don't have a problem with the plot itself but I think the story itself could do with another revision, particularly the last 2-3 chapters as mentioned by RDD they do seem somewhat rushed.

A lot of the story seems to have been written backwards, with a known ending and then working back to how to reach that ending, it makes seem rather forced in places, another draft might make it feel a little more organic.

Ch1 was pretty good, no real complaints.

However, things start to fall apart in Ch2. Firstly there's Kindle being rather overly action oriented in the fight scene. Then there's the bit about granting jinn full citizenship, which seems contradictory to how most were only supposed to be of animal intellect with only a rare few being fully sapient. Lastly Yangin's powers seem far in excess of what even a powerful jinn should be capable of, going well beyond elemental manipulation and crossing into the realm of reality warping.

I personally can't endorse things in their current form and it would be my recommendation that the story go through further revision to address these issues.

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At the risk of coming across a little snippy here, that bit of information about how jinn are supposed to be, would have been useful to have a month ago when I wrote both background information on Naqah and a fic synopsis and posted it to the Writer's Workshop and the Brainstorming thread at the time.

While I do like feedback, having a big thread of the story get dinged after throwing out information a lot of times before this...well, it does kind of make me wonder why I bothered posting the other things.

That being said, I will change it if need be. I'm just a little off balance and frustrated right now.

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I'm sorry if it feels that way to you, but honestly, I could have sworn we already discussed all of this at some point back when you were first proposing this fic.

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I was under the impression that things worked the way GreyGuard explained in his stories, that most jinn start out as basically animal in intellect but can gradually gain full sapience by interacting with camels, ponies, etc., often enough. We only really see three jinn that can talk, can't we? Yangin, Dunya, and that unnamed one that the unicorn has.

Seems fine to me, is what I'm saying.

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From previous discussions on the main forum, I was more so under the impression that the compromise we all reached was that a jinn's level of intelligence and power was reflective of how much of themselves a camel mage put into the summoning and binding spell. As such, jinn aren't really a race unto themselves, but rather are more like familiars. Likewise, most jinn are tied to their creators and so don't live any longer unless magically rebound.

Yangin was supposed to be something of an incredibly rare exception, wherein the mage who created her basically poured their entire essence into the summoning spell and creating something more like a magical "daughter" at the cost of their own life.

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Just to make sure that I wasn't being unfair here, I went back through the brainstorming threads to find our original round of discussions on the fic. I do see you mentioning that in "Games Ponies Shouldn't Play" that jinn "seem to be more like trained pets than people".

I, admittedly, read that more as a commentary on that fic than a hard and fast rule on what jinn should be like, considering that RDD posted some other possibilities in that same thread.

So, maybe it is my fault for miss-reading things back there. But it is still frustrating when I've been posting things for weeks and no one's said anything about me getting the jinn wrong. Since getting them wrong seems kind of like a big deal compared to other things I might need to change in the fic.

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Miscommunications happen, and if no one else mentioned it then that's pretty much as much my own fault for not conveying myself more fully. Plus, I do tend to be more picky about these things. Regardless, I do still stand entirely by my own opinions in the matter, and will offer whatever assistance I can moving forward should that be the decision made.

...however it's entirely up to RDD to make the final call. So all my statements really amount to is a recommendation.

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Plus, I do tend to be more picky about these things.

'Tis at once your best and worst quality, much like me and my waffling about and trying to avoid taking charge in favor of promoting a more organic Lunaverse, or GrassAndClouds2's incredible writing speed.

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But, for the record, I'm fine with things as they currently stand in your fic vis-a-vis how you portrayed the jinn.

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'Tis at once your best and worst quality,

That and also my persistent stubbornness...

...which in this case very much means that while I will abide any decision you make (including for me to shut up and drop the subject), I would very much like the chance to debate the subject at length and more fully explaining WHY I think having sapient jinn as any kind of standard would be a mistake -- especially seeing as it's an agreement I thought we'd all already reached way back when this story was first being proposed. Which is to say, I never spoke up before now, because I wasn't aware I needed to.

I don't want to cause Greygurad any undue stress, but my own perspective is likewise rather frustrated with the current situation as well.

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Well, like I said before, I'm not opposed to changing things. I'm more frustrated over...well, the timing I suppose?

Though, I suppose that if I'm being honest, I am a little concerned about how many other things making the change might force to shift in that domino like effect. The other things should be easy enough to change, I imagine. Like the bits with Yangin's perceived power. I can easily add in some bits where Trixie and/or Lyra realize that she's using illusion magic, rather than actually warping reality. And I could probably swap Kindle out for Terry the griffin, though I would need to find out more about his character to write him right. Changing the nature of the jinn, for whatever reason in my head, feels like it might cause more rippling after effects.

From my point of view, making the jinn largely artificial kind of robs them of some of their exotic flare. I can't picture legends and rumors of jinn being able to grant wishes for whatever someone might want if the vast majority of them don't even exist without a sha'ir feeding his power into them. At the very least, I kind of think that jinn sould be something that can occur naturally, even if we do decide that most never advance beyond animal intelligence.

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Well, for what its worth when I said I'd be willing to offer my assistance, I included it to mean in a way that is as minimally intrusive to your original concept as possible. So I would work very hard to keep the domino effect from spirling out of control. So I guess it's a matter of how much you're willingly to trust and work with me again like back when I was your "overbearing" editor on Past Remants.

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Dude, I'd probably be bugging you to look at and edit my non-Lunaverse stuff if not for the fact I feel horribly guilty at even thinking about imposing that much on your time. While I was annoyed at how this shook out, I still value your feedback. Again, it more came from this feeling like I was being ambushed, which probably isn't a fair way to fame it anyway.

That being said, I would like to hear your take on why sapient jinn are a bad idea.

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Okay, GreyGuard is onboard with the debate idea. Technically it's now the 9th and I should be reaching my decision now, but let's extend things to, say, the 12th, for the purposes of the debate between Emeral and GreyGuard. After that and based on the course of the debate, which I'll try and be involved in or at least mediate, I'll make my final decision.

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It's still technically the 8th where I am!

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I always use my time, which is Eastern Standard Time, 5 hours behind GMT.

4449470

Dude, I'd probably be bugging you to look at and edit my non-Lunaverse stuff if not for the fact I feel horribly guilty at even thinking about imposing that much on your time.

I'll admit some curiosity, but it'd be something of a major time investment to get sufficiently caught up with the intricacies of your AU to provide any kind of useful feedback. Much as I might want to, I'm just not sure it's a commitment I could really make.

Again, it more came from this feeling like I was being ambushed,

I can sort of understand, seeing as I felt just a little ambushed myself reading through your Ch2... though given how much more time and effort you put into this, my "half" probably doesn't really compare.

Anyway... enough pleasantries; lets get down and dirty.

So as I briefly explained in a comment on the g-doc, it's mostly a matter of how everyone of our sapient races is supposed to have a particular style and flavor of magic. For the three ponies tribes it's as per the show; for the deer they have their rune carving; while for the zebra there's ritual spell circles. As I would see it the practice of both summoning and binding elemental spirits should be the principle form that camel magic takes, as such tainting it with any kind of "slavery" overtones rather compromises the entire race.

It's sort of the same problem as having sapient sheep. Though by contrast some of the non-talking "pets" of the show (notably Angel and Owlowiscious) display a measure of *competence* far in excess of typical real world animals. I'd be more or less okay with the average jinn displaying similar "intelligence" and some could maybe even talk, though preferably with a rather limited vocabulary pertaining mostly to their specific duties.

Really though, what I'm most opposed is the idea that the average jinn posses any kind of free-will or even much in the way of self-identity. To me they would work best as creatures whose entire existence is defined by the masters to which they are bound, extensions of their creator's will. Without a master to command them a jinn has no volition of their own and wouldn't even be able to comprehend concept of "freedom". Now there could certainly be legends of ancient elemental creatures that ostensibly first taught the camels how to summon and bind lesser elemental spirits, but much like other aspects of pre-history setting lore we should probably never confirm how much is truth -vs- myth.

Anyway, those lesser elemental spirits could indeed be naturally occurring, but they'd also be by and large ephemeral, occasionally taking on a semblance of form, but which is almost always a fleeting thing (a sort of miniature living windstorm for one possible example). It is really only through the act of being summoned and bound that gives them either true shape or purpose. This would also be why even the rare jinn such Yangin who are fully sapient still keep their bound artifact, while they have no desire to be forced to obey whomever holds such a trinket, they are still themselves dependent on it, as without such an anchor they would simply fade away like dust on the wind (or at least they fear that would be the case and so are unwilling to take any risks to the contrary).

From my point of view, making the jinn largely artificial kind of robs them of some of their exotic flare.

The thing to keep in mid is that jinn should really only be "exotic" to ponies (or more specifically Equestrian's). In Naqah, however, they are a common and mundane thing, as ordinary as the magic of unicorns, pegasi, and earth ponies. Now, there could certainly still be historical stories of greater jinn (such as Yangin), creations of exceptionally gifted camels, said to be of untold power and capable of granting any "wish" -- and certainly the versions of those tales that spread to other nations would likely only be all the more exaggerated. Their actually ability to do so however should be decidedly more limited, not even possessing as much power as an alicorn, or at least far less versatile due to being limited to just the manipulation of their individual element (although they can certainly be powerful enough to "stretch" the limits of what might normally qualify as elemental manipulation).

So that's more or less the broad strokes basics, as I would see it.

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I'll admit some curiosity, but it'd be something of a major time investment to get sufficiently caught up with the intricacies of your AU to provide any kind of useful feedback. Much as I might want to, I'm just not sure it's a commitment I could really make.

I understand. Everyone's time is limited and getting deep into another AU can easily be a bridge too far. And if I'm being honest with myself, there may be a little bit of Lunaverse envy in there and a desire for more in depth feedback and the like.

Anyway, my own counter-argument.

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So as I briefly explained in a comment on the g-doc, it's mostly a matter of how everyone of our sapient races is supposed to have a particular style and flavor of magic. For the three ponies tribes it's as per the show; for the deer they have their rune carving; while for the zebra there's ritual spell circles. As I would see it the practice of both summoning and binding elemental spirits should be the principle form that camel magic takes, as such tainting it with any kind of "slavery" overtones rather compromises the entire race.

I...don't see that.

The main reason is that it's not like I've left them with nothing, post the jinn rebellions. Now they have the sha'ir which, while admittedly a bit of an old school D&D reference, I feel is a more interesting arrangement. The relationship between camel and jinn has gone from one that's more predatory, to one where they need each other. Without the jinn, the camels have to crudley force elemental magic. And without the camels, the jinn will never grow and learn and become more than instinct driven balls of elemental chaos. A symbiotic relationship doesn't taint the race or rip the heart out of them in my opinon.

Really though, what I'm most opposed is the idea that the average jinn posses any kind of free-will or even much in the way of self-identity. To me they would work best as creatures whose entire existence is defined by the masters to which they are bound, extensions of their creator's will. Without a master to command them a jinn has no volition of their own and wouldn't even be able to comprehend concept of "freedom".

Again, my objection to this is largely one of boredom. Jinn as tools aren't really that interesting in my mind, as I can't play with character relationships between jinn and sha'ir if I wanted too. There is also the fact that it kind of helps cut the legs out from under Yangin's character.

She's suspicious of others at times, especially people tied to the Naqahn government, because of how the jinn have been treated over the ages and her own creation. If other jinn are just things created by camels with no free will, I can't see her really caring about how they're treated.

The thing to keep in mid is that jinn should really only be "exotic" to ponies (or more specifically Equestrian's). In Naqah, however, they are a common and mundane thing, as ordinary as the magic of unicorns, pegasi, and earth ponies.

Admittedly, this might be my own biases at work here.....

But I've always gotten the feeling that other races weren't as magical across the board as ponies. That is to say, the other races don't have these sub groups with different kinds of magic. And the magic that other races have has always seemed more in that active casty way that unicorn magic is. So, there's kind of a logical flow from that observation, to the idea that only about a 1/3 of the population of these other races are what we'd call spellcasters.

Which is kind of my own interpreation of things, admittedly, but I've just not gotten this feeling that jinn are as ubiquitous as earth pony, pegasai and unicorn magic combined.

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And as its getting rather late over here, that's about all my mind can scare up at the moment. I might have more tomorrow if something hits me.

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A symbiotic relationship doesn't taint the race or rip the heart out of them in my opinon.

And yet despite this supposed "symbiotic" relation ship that date back to whenever this historical rebellion happened, jinn have apparently still been treated as some kind to the slave cast to the point where even talk of giving them equal rights is poised to create another war. Sorry, but this just brings into mean unpleasantly dark themes that just make the entire camel society something I really can abide or care for within the context of the Lunaverse.

Jinn as tools aren't really that interesting in my mind, as I can't play with character relationships between jinn and sha'ir if I wanted too.

I don't really see why you should NEED that. You've already got the camels themselves to explore relationship dynamics, and could just as easily used non-camel residents of Naqah to explore an imbalanced prejudicial power dynamic.

Further more "tools" is precisely what I think the average Jinn needs to be, raw manifestations of camel magic, not unique independent characters unto themselves. Trying to do otherwise would be as nonsensical as making any other race's magic self-aware. Plus I think it just needlessly clutters up the setting by adding another extraneous race that mix, that could much more seamlessly operate as an extension of the camels.

If other jinn are just things created by camels with no free will, I can't see her really caring about how they're treated.

I don't think she needs to be beleaguered on behalf of her supposedly enslaved kinfolk to be mistrustful of others. The mere fact that she herself is a Jinn and bound by the same forced subservience to anyone that might happen to hold her binding trinket could be enough all on it's own. In fact I think it works all the better if she is uniquely sapient, because it allows her to be all the more outraged at being treated no different than an animal just because of the circumstances of whet she was born as.

But I've always gotten the feeling that other races weren't as magical across the board as ponies.

Id actually sort of agree with that. More so, however (and specifically in the context of the Lunaverse) in that ponies seem to be one of the few races with internal magic that they are born with, whereas the other races utilize external magic that has to be learned. So to me it's not that only 1/3 of camels have magic, but rather that it is a discipline unto itself wholly separate from their physiology. Same thing for deer and their ruins and zebra and their rituals, especially as in both examples Trixie actually knows some magic from each.

Addendum:

Again, my objection to this is largely one of boredom.

I've never really found this a compelling reason. To me if you have to invent and introduce new ellements into a series to make it les "boring" then it only betrays a lack of appreciation for what the series already has to offer. Further more, however, I think it's entirely misplaced. Equestria is the center of the world, perhaps not literally, but as an audience it is our most direct channel into it. I think there is a danger in trying to dress overdevelop foreign nations, to dress then up with extra layers of exoticness solely for the supposed reason of making them more "interesting" because it detracts from Equestria as the core of our setting. It's the homeland of our heroes that deserves that kind of attention and development, not the random adventure local of the week.

but I've just not gotten this feeling that jinn are as ubiquitous as earth pony, pegasai and unicorn magic combined.

As I'd see it, it's not a matter of ubiquity, but rather of mundane utility. Only a very small fraction of humans are scientists or such, and yet there research and inventions revolutionize everyone's lives. That's one of the things I really appreciate about MLP, because for the most part it's not just a world with magic grafted onto it, but where magic is integrated into the everyday reality of the world. We humans use our science to adapt the world around us, but for ponies "magic" is just one more tool they have to work with in doing so. Likewise, It's something I rather strongly feel should be just as true for every race other race in the Lunaverse.

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And yet despite this supposed "symbiotic" relation ship that date back to whenever this historical rebellion happened, jinn have apparently still been treated as some kind to the slave cast to the point where even talk of giving them equal rights is poised to create another war. Sorry, but this just brings into mean unpleasantly dark themes that just make the entire camel society something I really can abide or care for within the context of the Lunaverse.

Now, here I think a very fair case could be made that I just blew it in the execution of conveying what I had in mind. Because it is supposed to be a matter of degrees of difference. What Sultan Pirinc did was to put into the legal code, a truth that was basically already happening across the country. Hard liner conservatives like Grev can no longer hide behind the legal nicity that jinn aren't really creatures.

Plus, there are the other things he's been doing to enact reforms. The disbanding of the jannisary corps, shifting of the nations educational systems from the philosphical centered ones of the Pillars to modern state funded schools and universities, reorganizations of both the financial and criminal codes and even some little things like pushing for more "Equestrian" fashions (since, by our map, they'd be the "western" power compared to earth history).

Again, I've probably not done a good job conveying these things. Grev is somewhat tribest, so the situation with the jinn is what he's made his focus. But the rebellion is because Pirinc has set himself to the task of dragging his homeland into the modern era, kicking and screaming if he has to.

Further more "tools" is precisely what I think the average Jinn needs to be, raw manifestations of camel magic, not unique independent characters unto themselves. Trying to do otherwise would be as nonsensical as making any other race's magic self-aware. Plus I think it just needlessly clutters up the setting by adding another extraneous race that mix, that could much more seamlessly operate as an extension of the camels.

I think that this one, ultimately, just comes down to a matter of taste. For me, making jinn raw extensions of magic is a pretty severe wandering away from the idea of what they are in mythology. Which isn't to say one can't do that, I suppose, considering what I did with the ghuls.

I've never had a problem with loads of races though and making them just tools...I'll be honest, it really kind of drains my desire to write them.

Is there some kind of compromise we can reach? Up above, you mentioned the idea of some kind of primal elemental beings having taught the camels the art of creating jinn. Perhaps instead they taught the camels how to speak with the elements and they alone can speak with lesser elemental creatures, which could both be the jinn and any other elemental critters we wanted to add later.

I've never really found this a compelling reason. To me if you have to invent and introduce new ellements into a series to make it les "boring" then it only betrays a lack of appreciation for what the series already has to offer. Further more, however, I think it's entirely misplaced. Equestria is the center of the world, perhaps not literally, but as an audience it is our most direct channel into it. I think there is a danger in trying to dress overdevelop foreign nations, to dress then up with extra layers of exoticness solely for the supposed reason of making them more "interesting" because it detracts from Equestria as the core of our setting. It's the homeland of our heroes that deserves that kind of attention and development, not the random adventure local of the week.

Perhaps boredom isn't the right word then.

But when I look at writing and creating a setting, other nations need to have their depth. They need to feel like place with their own problems and triumphs, sucesses and failures, goals and fears. And all of those things need to be able to interact with their neighbors and Equestria if need be.

Call it verisimillitude, I suppose. Even if we never come back to a forgien nation again, I want to have it defined and in my back pocket, just in case.

As I'd see it, it's not a matter of ubiquity, but rather of mundane utility. Only a very small fraction of humans are scientists or such, and yet there research and inventions revolutionize everyone's lives. That's one of the things I really appreciate about MLP, because for the most part it's not just a world with magic grafted onto it, but where magic is integrated into the everyday reality of the world. We humans use our science to adapt the world around us, but for ponies "magic" is just one more tool they have to work with in doing so. Likewise, It's something I rather strongly feel should be just as true for every race other race in the Lunaverse.

I am kind of curious about just how many jinn you picture in a city like Al-astianna then. The whole 1/3rd still feels like just about the right amount of active jinn users under either one of our takes on them, I think.

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For me, making jinn raw extensions of magic is a pretty severe wandering away from the idea of what they are in mythology.

Well, yes, but to me that's kind of the point. What you seem to have wanted to write all along is a story about rather "genies", even specifically referencing that you watch Aladdin to put yourself in the write frame of mind. To me, however, that's entirely the wrong approach, we'd already long ago decided not to have any "wish" granting super being in the Lunaverse. Instead what we eventually came up with was the idea of elemental servants. We gave those to the Camles to be their unique flavor of magic, and having also already ascribed camels with a corresponding culture, we more so coopted the term "jinn" as something to call those elemental servants. They fill a vaguely similar thematic role, but are decidedly not traditional genies, having instead been adapted to fit the psudo magitech world of MLP.

It's not like this is the first time either. World building isn't just about copying myths but rather readapting them to suit our own needs. Such as when to fit with the Norse theme we gave the deer, we made their leader Sleipnir. He's named after odins horse, and keeps certain phisical charteristics like the extra lega, but we obviously recast him as a stag.

Even ponies from theshow itself are much the same, with unicorns and pegasia bearing little but the most superficial resemblance to their realworld mytholgical counterpars. Espcially the latter, as the mythiical pegasus was a singular unique creature, ostesnibly a demigod even, being the child of Poseidon & Medusa.

Which isn't to say one can't do that, I suppose, considering what I did with the ghuls.

By that same token, I want to make it fully clear that I don't dislike your concept of jinn in and of itself. There's absolutely nothing "wrong" with the way you want to do things from an independent narrative standpoint. Rather my problem is that I find it ill-suited to the version I thought we'd all already agreed to use in the Lunaverse.

and making them just tools...I'll be honest, it really kind of drains my desire to write them.

I can understand that, but at the same time it's hard for me to fully empathize because in so far as I see it you shouldn't be writing ABOUT the jinn in the first place. Rather you should be writing a story about the camels of Naqah, who just so happen to be a race that magically conjure elemental spirits.

Moreover though I feel like you might be getting the wrong impression of what I mean when I say that jinn are "tool". I don't mean to suggest they are emotionless automaton. Quite the opposite really. In my own idea they are extensions of those who create them, ensouled with a portion of that creator's own essence. They are very much living things and should act as such. They are "tools", but in much the same way that a domestically thoroughbred animal is also a tool, but all the same they should still be more like pets them people.

I'm also not opposed to the idea that some jinn are more semi-autonomously capable then others. The over all power and skill of the creator should be able to show in the complexity of the jinn they create. Again to use the M6 pets by way of example, jinn can range from the almost entirely animalistic (like Winona) to pseudo-human assistant (like Angel). So unless you think Angel is a boring character, then you should still be able to do something interesting enough with "ordinary" jinn.

Is there some kind of compromise we can reach?

Yes, that should be the end goal of all this, but it's hard for me because much of what I outlined already is the compromise. Back when you first pitched the this story idea and needed to have something more than standard jinn for Yangin's role, I was more or less fine to allow her as something of a unique entity. Apparently our major miscommunication was that you thought I was only ever concerned with power level, where as conversely I though you already understood that jinn weren't really an independent sapient race unto themselves.

you mentioned the idea of some kind of primal elemental beings having taught the camels the art of creating jinn. Perhaps instead they taught the camels how to speak with the elements

While I have occasionally used the words "create", I should like to emphasize that the more appropriate terms I prefer are "summon & bind". The elemental spirits from which jinn are formed are something I indeed see as being a natural part of the world, but they aren't exactly living creatures per say. Rather they are more like living potential, something that can be drawn out and shaped -- or that is to say "summoned" into existence. However, they also lack inertia and unless also "bound" would simply disperse back into their more ephemeral base state.

This to me is the biggest reason they shouldn't really be any concept of jinn rights or equality, because camels shouldn't generally go about creating jinn that are complex enough to form their own independent society in the first place. Which isn't to say such jinn don't occasionally get created, Yangin being an obvious example herself. Rather I would say that camels should probably have something of a taboo against it, in part as an obvious precaution against jinn ever being independently sapient enough to even be considered "slaves" in the first place. Of course such a taboo could likewise tie back into the idea of a more decadently immoral history when reckless abuse of jinn summoning was allowed resulting in the creation of jinn like Yangin and by extension nearly leading to the ruin of their entire civilization in the subsequent rebellions.

This could further factor into Yangin mistrust, since during (and perhaps even in the immediate aftermath) of the war many greater jinn would have been unbound under the ostensive pretense that they are abominations that should never have been created in the first place.

and they alone can speak with lesser elemental creatures,

Also to be clear, I don't think the ability to commune with elemental spirits needs to be uniquely something that only camels can do, although they might have a greater affinity for it. Much like how anyone can learn to carve elkish ruins or perform a zebra ritual chant, so to can anyone learn to summon and bind jinn. Having said that each race is also different in regard to how secretive they are with their magical traditions -- zebra being an example of a race that is seemingly very open, where as the deerfolk are much more guarded and actually forbid teach ruin carving to outsiders.

I am kind of curious about just how many jinn you picture in a city like Al-astianna then.

1/3 might even actually be a bit on high side for the number of camels trained to summon and bind jinn. Although as jinn can be re-bound, they can also be sold, and even passed down from one generation to the next, So 1/3 might be about right for the number of camels who own jinn.

Roughly speaking, I'd think they need common enough that no one native to the country would ever be surprised to see a jinn, but not so common that any majority of populace own their own. Of course, as mentioned above, jinn can come in many shapes and sizes. Jinn capable of manifesting their own external physical form would probably be less common (especially once capable of moving any great distance from their bound object), but items infused with an entirely internal elemental essences might be more common. So one might for example be able to easily find something like a magical lantern or stove inhabited by a sort of fiery demi-jinn.

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Alright, I yeild.

I'll change things around. But I would at least like to be able to hang onto the idea that Yangin has some siblings, and that back during the old caliphate things were getting out of hand enough that there's something of a generation of the more elder jinn scattered around the world.

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Alright, I yeild.

I hope there's no resentment in that. I know I can be somewhat domineering in my argument style, but I wasn't trying to batter you into submission. I don't want to "win" this argument at the expense of making you unhappy.

But I would at least like to be able to hang onto the idea that Yangin has some siblings,

That much I'm entirely fine with, Heck, I seem to recall having myself suggested there should be at least two of them back when you were making your original pitch.

Although how that balances out is something I think needs to be taken into consideration. I'm not for example opposed to the idea that as a greater jinn she can manipulate multiple elements, though both her name (perfect fire) and the idea that she was part of a set of four, creates a rather strong thematic implication that she should specifically work mostly if not only with fire. Outside of the fight scene, however, most of what you have her do seems more like applications of wind and/or earth. To some extent that's something that could perhaps be most easily fixed just by changing her name, either to one of the other elements or else something less specialized sounding.

that there's something of a generation of the more elder jinn scattered around the world.

That's also certainly a fair possibility. Much like how it's also entirely possibly that Celestia and Luna aren't the only surviving original alicorns. Plus there's also plenty of room for any variety of other assorted elemental creatures which might or might not be some of those greater jinn. Unless you have a specific need for more such characters in this specific story though, than that's a discussion that can be saved for later.

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I would like to echo that I hope there's no resentment here, GreyGuard. Ultimately this is your fic, and as mentioned I was fine with things as they were. This was a chance for Emeral to formally say what he wanted to say, but you don't have to feel compelled to follow any of it if you really think your fic works better as-is.

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I hope there's no resentment in that. I know I can be somewhat domineering in my argument style, but I wasn't trying to batter you into submission. I don't want to "win" this argument at the expense of making you unhappy.

Its just not worth continuing the debate in my mind. You've made your good points and, as always, the Lunaverse isn't mine to do with what I please. And, ultimately, things probably won't change all that much in the story as is. Yangin and Dunya as part of the four Perfect Jinn would be outside the limitations already and the other two that exist in the story....well, they never really say anything anyway.

I'll have to reframe some aspects of how decedant the old caliphate was in the later chapters, I think. Maybe tweek some of the circumstances of the four sisters creation. I can adapt.

Although how that balances out is something I think needs to be taken into consideration. I'm not for example opposed to the idea that as a greater jinn she can manipulate multiple elements, though both her name (perfect fire) and the idea that she was part of a set of four, creates a rather strong thematic implication that she should specifically work mostly if not only with fire. Outside of the fight scene, however, most of what you have her do seems more like applications of wind and/or earth. To some extent that's something that could perhaps be most easily fixed just by changing her name, either to one of the other elements or else something less specialized sounding.

This one though, I'm a bit less willing to budge on at the moment.

I am willing to have her use more fire attacks, if we can figure out how to use them in a way that won't shatter the kind of rating that we wanna keep the Lunaverse at. After all, fire can get really nasty, really fast if you're not careful.

But I do want to keep the Perfect Jinn what they are, a mix of the four elements and magely power, but more skilled at using their "home" element, as it were. And I would like to keep Yangin, Perfect Fire, as she is supposed to wind up a minon for Corona. It's a thematic fit.

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the Lunaverse isn't mine to do with what I please.

It's not mine either...

I mean, don't get me wrong; I generally want things to work out in my own favor, and will argue rather persistently to that end, but I know that everyone's contributions matter. I really do appreciate any compromises you're willing to make on my behalf, but I'd prefer if you do so because you feel I've genuinely made a point, not just because you are trying to appease me. (or if you do, at least tell me as much so that I know I owe you a similar favor in turn).

I am willing to have her use more fire attacks,

That's not really the problem. Rather if she is going to be "perfect fire" then I think she needs more ways to display her master of that element in ways that have nothing to do with fighting.

And I would like to keep Yangin, Perfect Fire, as she is supposed to wind up a minon for Corona. It's a thematic fit.

Fair enough. Although instead of change the "Fire" half of her name, maybe change the "Perfect". Like I said, I don't really mind the idea of her being a mix of all the elements, rather it's that the idea of four PERFECT jinn's seems rather contradictory to such hybrids, as I should think that kind of title should also imply some degree of PURITY.

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It's not mine either...
I mean, don't get me wrong; I generally want things to work out in my own favor, and will argue rather persistently to that end, but I know that everyone's contributions matter. I really do appreciate any compromises you're willing to make on my behalf, but I'd prefer if you do so because you feel I've genuinely made a point, not just because you are trying to appease me. (or if you do, at least tell me as much so that I know I owe you a similar favor in turn).

Well, I'd say that its half me thinking that you made a point.

At the very least, I understand why you feel the way you do. I don't entirely agree, as I've always liked the whole concept of the sha'ir and having to kind of barter with the genie for spellpower. It's evocative to me for one. And having met my dad's one friend from Iraq, I can say that he loves to debate, argue, and tell bad jokes and stories. So, it felt kind of appropriate.

But it's not a hill that I feel like metaphorically dying on. As much as I like my take on the jinn, when I practically look at that take that's in the fic so far, I can't say that sticking to my guns is that insanely critical for the fic to work. Most of the jinn in the fics are ones that are outside the resictions anyway, as I said.

So, this time, I'm going to back down.

That's not really the problem. Rather if she is going to be "perfect fire" then I think she needs more ways to display her master of that element in ways that have nothing to do with fighting.

Any ideas here? Fire does tend towards being one note at times.

Fair enough. Although instead of change the "Fire" half of her name, maybe change the "Perfect". Like I said, I don't really mind the idea of her being a mix of all the elements, rather it's that the idea of four PERFECT jinn's seems rather contradictory to such hybrids, as I should think that kind of title should also imply some degree of PURITY.

Hmm. Well, she was living under the false name of Wild Fire. Maybe switch things aorund? Make her fake name Perfect Fire and her real name Wild Fire?

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always liked the whole concept of the sha'ir and having to kind of barter with the genie for spellpower.

To be fair, I think that could still be a rather cool idea. I just don't quite think it's right for the camels of the Lunaverse and there elemental jinn. It just feels comparatively backwards as it's not the camel themselves who is magically empowered, but rather the jinn which they summon. I also feel that the "beginning" aspect just wouldn't have lent itself very well to the social inequity angle you seemed to want to explore, the power dynamic seeming backwards.

So I really wouldn't want you to abandon the idea entirely, I just think we need to find a better place to fit it in to the setting. Picky as I may be, I do also still like being able to work in a wide variety of things were appropriate.

Any ideas here? Fire does tend towards being one note at times.

Admittedly, that is sort of a problem. Though oddly it's also why I rather think it might be a good idea to just have her be fire only. Restrictions bread creativity, and so if fire was her only tool to work with then I think it'd help us figure out more ways for her to use it and so truly live up to her name. That or if you mostly only intend to give a notable role to one of her other siblings (Dunya?) maybe just drop the other two entirely and make them each dual elementals, with Yangin being Fire+Wind (which might fit the "Wild" name nicely) and the other being Earth+Water.

Make her fake name Perfect Fire and her real name Wild Fire?

Maybe, though I should take a moment to point out that Wild Fire also happens to already be the name of a rather well known official "OC" for one of the actual show staff. So using that name without it actually being a reference could be sort of awkward. For example, I originally thought it meant that you jinn was going to be disguised as that particular pegasus and so was rather surprised when she turned out to be a camel instead -- the image even still persisted in my mind in scenes like after CT's bath, despite knowing better by then.

if you aren't tied to Yanigin but still want something evocative of a Corona minion, how about something based off "gold" or "sun" or just "light" in general, still potentially hinting at a fire specialty, but without making it so overt. Alternatively, if she and her siblings were basically super weapons of some kind, maybe they should all have overly elaborate and rather scary sounding names -- Toprak kavurucu rüzgar Yangın (Fire on the wind scorching the earth), could work as something of composite name. It has a double emphasis for fire, and while it does leave out water, that seems to be the element she's expressed, which would also seem fitting as it's generally the opposite of fire and thereby the least compatible. It could also rather work nicely with there being four siblings, each a triple composite with a different element absent.

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This is some good dicussion and feedback but I do wonder if we're wandering away form the purpose of the thread.

Maybe you and I should take this to PMs to hash out the other fixes? I do get the sense that RDD is leaning towards making the story cannon anyway, and that it's just a matter of me making some fixes and fleshing things out some.

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I do get the sense that RDD is leaning towards making the story cannon anyway,

That's pretty much been the case from the start.

Either way, if you'd rather continue any further discussion privately, then we can easily do so at your discretion.

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I do intend to canonize it, yes.

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I return to the quorum of cannon with the changed version of Chasing Smoke. Why you might ask?

Mostly because making all of the changes ended up shifting everything around a lot more than I first thought it would. The end result is that I kind of feel like I need to submit it from the quorum again. Basically, I'm not sure if I've actually improved the fic with the changes or if I've just made it a lot worse. And I'm concerned enough that I really think it needs to be looked at again.

So, if its not too much trouble. Could you make sure I haven't turned it into something completely unsuitable for the Lunaverse?

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Looking it over now.

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Okay, looked it over.

- Moving the initial action from the capital to another nearby city is probably a good idea, since we no longer have the equivalent of Jefferson Davis going to Washington, DC to direct some Confederate spies personally.
- I really like the expanded ghul sequence. It gets a good deal darker but that's okay; like I said, I'm willing to tolerate violence up to about what Avatar: the Last Airbender and The Legend of Korra features, and the new sequence doesn't cross any lines. My only question is - who is Zed?
- The ponies (well, Cheerilee) much more explicitly forcing Yangin to help them plays into her siding with Corona later much better.
- Adding Terrorwing and the salamanders was a good idea.
- While I understand that you've decided to change things with regards to how the jinn act and stuff, Dunya's desire to create a jinn nation seems a bit strange - because, in this new version, aren't there really only four truly sapient jinn? Or are there more than we just don't get to see or hear about?

Overall, I don't see anything that would change this thing getting canon status, though I would at least like the jinn question resolved.

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While I understand that you've decided to change things with regards to how the jinn act and stuff, Dunya's desire to create a jinn nation seems a bit strange

I've not read that far yet myself, but would it maybe be possible to switch out "nation" for something more like a "nature preserve". Sort of make Dunya's stance something like Fluttershy's from the episode Bats.

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My only question is - who is Zed?

Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead

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Well, with the jinn, after Emeral and I hashed it out, what we kind of settled on was that there are more sapient jinn out there than just Yangin and her siblings. The old caliphate was supposed to be insanely decadent and out of control and were trying to make new jinn all the time.

So, you did basically have a generation of sapient jinn thanks to their mucking about, but unlike the four Perfects, they're all one element creatures. Some got destroyed during the rebellions, some more got destroyed afterwords. There might be....I dunno....maybe a hundred world wide at this point max?

Dunya's whole thing is that its not good enough. No more jinn being tools. No more them needed to hide.

Zed is Zartha, Saurian Lord of Necromancy and another resident of Tartarus. When Emeral and I were discussing the sha'ir and the jinn, he mentioned the idea of making the idea of bartering for power being something that might fit better for Tartarus. It made sense to me, since we saw Grogar basically doing exactly that in Tambelon.

So, having another ancient power that creatures could barter with and being in direct competition with Tirek seemed like a good idea. Though I will admit, using him in this way is some really long term seeding, probably not something that would become relevant until we made it to Season 4 and dealt with the idea of Tirek possibly escaping from Tartarus.

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My problem with that idea is that I feel that it kind of drains some of the conflict from that scene. If it's just making a "nature preserve" I can't see Yangin being upset about the situation, which would mean that they'd probably not fight. And then Dunya giving Yangin over to Kindle makes not a whole lot of sense.

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And then Dunya giving Yangin over to Kindle makes not a whole lot of sense.

I'm not sure it would really work in either context, but I'll refrain form too much commentary on the details until I actually reach that point (apologies for being such a slow reader).

Anyway, while I might dispute the exact number of remaining sapient jinn, that's not really relevant. If you need something for Yangin and Dunya to get into a fight about in regards to the creation of a nation, maybe it could be that Dunya also wants to likewise begin creating NEW sapient jinn to populate it. At the very least this could bring back troubling concerns that Dunya basically just wants to eventually start the old rebellions all over again. For an even darker twist, however, way back when we were first discussing how a jinn like Yangin could even be created in the first place it was suggested that it might basically require a caster transferring their entire life essence, so creating an entire nation of such jinn would pretty much require the destruction of the already existent Naqah.

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Well, creating new sapient jinn is something she's already been trying to do with very little success. She's basically only been able to get them to mimic sapient creature actions in a loop. And Yangin does flip her lid over that.

Good point on the life force thing though.