Now let me elaborate, i don't mean stupid character for the sake of comedy but serous characters in serious stories but the characters lacks even the most basic logical thinking or reasoning.
Like in the show itself, most issues could be solved under 5min with a bit of thinking and talking, but the show i can forgive it's made for kids to teach friendship, kindness etc, but when your write a serious story with a mature tone and mature topics like murder, torture, rape etc, making a character that lacks the most basic levels of logic just destroyers for me the serious tone, and where i should connect to these characters all i can think of is that they all deserve to die in a ditch.

For example in this one fic im reading the main villain who was experimenting on ponies, experiments that were torture and mostly resulted in death of the subject get's a free jail card, im not kidding Celestia "banishes" him out of Equestria, not to the Moon thou just a few miles outside Equestria border, and what does the villain do? he walks right back into Equestria to resume his "work".

Now the fic begins with the heroes trying to catch the mad scientist, and even thou everyone knows that Celestia basically let him free no one questions this, like what will be the end of this fic Celestia again "banishes" him.

The author in this fic defends Celestia saying she's to kind, but that's moronic, so what she releases every criminal?
She could've put him in prison and then work on rehabilitating him and not just dumping into i dunno Griffinstone and be like he's your problem now birds.
Imagine if we did that in the real world, instead of imprisoning the worst criminals in our nations we'd just dump them into the next country over.

In this fic case there's even a simple fix, just say he was imprisonment for life and somehow he escaped and has been on the run ever since.

This may have turned into a rant about a certain fic, but there are other fic that i could rant on how the characters don't question the most basic of issues, like the main trope of forgiveness, oh you trapped in stone for a 1000 years for no good reason while i was fully conciseness the whole but you're really sorry i suppose it's ok then.

All i can ask is WHY!!!

6511668
One of the possible answers is that in these fics the characters are not characters. They are nothing more than a tool that has the agency of a coffee table. The way one author will place a coffee table in a room for a character to trip, other authors will place a character in a similar fashion with no thought of whether the 'character' has a reason to be there or he would try to avoid the coming collision. He is there to be a tool, even if the author has to explain his decision to go to that place and stand as 'a sudden thought that he decided to go through with'.

You will find a lot of fics where a 'character' suddenly comes with a random thought and goes with it. That's usually a sign.

These characters don't have even basic levels of logic because they don't have anything else either. They have no needs, no wants, no likes or dislikes, no personal philosophies, no reason. I'm very certain that the main villain you're mentioning would have no character beyond superficial reasons for his experimentations, reasons that even if they could be achieved without torture or death would be ditched because as I mentioned he wouldn't be a character but a tool. Celestia is likewise a tool there. She is there to simply let the doctor begin anew but from a standpoint where his crimes are known without having to go into the process of finding a reasonable backstory for his existence or escape. Celestia is kind so she does that, and for the purposes of using this tool the author ignores the same concept that allows him to use her like that and has no thought of whether Celestia's kindness would be extended to other people or nations who would have to deal with this guy. Let's be real, to them, if her banishment were succesful, she would be a monster.

When the character is a tool you don't need to bother as an author to empathize with him. You don't have to consider how he/she feels, how they would head towards their goals, whether an action inspires or provokes them. They do as the author wills with all the personality of a chess piece.

oh you trapped in stone for a 1000 years for no good reason while i was fully conciseness the whole but you're really sorry i suppose it's ok then.

The tool needs to forgive or there would be more work. Since he is a tool and not a real character, of course the tool forgives.

Tunnel vision. They want to get to a destination but don’t really care or know how to get there.

It sounds like this guy you’re ranting about wanted to get some conflict into his story but still wanted to have future rape/torture/experiment chapters.

How might you go about this?

Well you could spend the time to write multiple chapters about how he was caught, sent to the dungeon, somehow escaped, is on the run from an all powerful pony and her guards for who knows how long, set up a new lair, and foalnap a new batch of victims.

Or you could say Celestia teleported him out of Equestria out of kindness and just have to write about him making his way back to his (somehow) undiscovered lair.

It boils down to how much work the writer wants to put into it. This author probably didn’t want to put the time into making it realistic and just went with “because Celestia’s just too kind to properly punish someone who’s putting her ponies through extreme pain and death.”

The author got lazy and then got defensive when they were called out.

Edit: and what Crim said. That makes a lot of sense as well.

6511679
So basically the author is lazy and the fic is lazy and only exist for the sake of action and plot?

oh you trapped in stone for a 1000 years for no good reason while i was fully conciseness the whole but you're really sorry i suppose it's ok then.

The tool needs to forgive or there would be more work. Since he is a tool and not a real character, of course the tool forgives.

I may have worded this improperly, i meant the other way around, the stoned person forgives those who stoned him just because they're sorry, even if he was stoned without a good reason, like he just looked evil but really wasn't.

6511682
I think he understood you

the stoned person forgives those who stoned him just because they're sorry.

The tool needs to forgive or there would be more work

even if he was stoned without a good reason, like he just looked evil but really wasn't.

of course the tool forgives

6511684
Me hed no work today.
I read that as the tool needs to be forgiven , either way it works both ways, villains are forgiven for heinous crimes as long as they're really sorry and unjustly people forgive a long as their punishers are really sorry.

6511681
I don't need several chapters explaining backstories or create new conflicts just quick simple reasoning, like how did Celestia think that letting free a vile criminal with no conscience into another nation was a good idea.
As i said previously a quick fix would be to say that he was in prison for life and escaped, the details of how can be left to the imagination.
The question im saying is WHY??

6511668
Maybe because the authors are moronic too?

6511682

So basically the author is lazy and the fic is lazy and only exist for the sake of action and plot?

In... a way. Not always, mind you. Let's take the example of authors who try to migrate an anime look/plot/series into a fanfic or a crossover. Anime, especially the action type, has a far more subtle characterization, often to the point where it feels characters take second place to events and characters (to be fair that is prevalent to a lot more mediums, like hollywood movies and series). Since the lesson taken or example given is that characters are there to serve the plot, then this is what happens since fanfiction is an amateur writer past-time. Monkey see, monkey do.

An example: in One Piece there is a character called Robin who has a very fanfic typical past of sorts. She is the last survivor of her island that had been basically bombarded to destruction, she is the only person left who can read some very special glyphs, has a super-power, and has been hunted by the World Government since she was 8 years old, gaining the title 'The Demon Child' and learning to never trust anyone. In her debut she is the no.2 of the arc's prime villain.

Then she suddenly out of the blue decides to join the protagonist's pirate crew and uncharacteristically trusts the protagonist (captain).

What many will see is that you can push a character from the bad side to good with no problem and she trusts the main hero because he is that good and trustworthy.

What the anime/manga does though is then show you that the only reason Robin survived the destruction of her island is that someone saved her at the cost of his life. What you will notice if you pay some attention was that the person who saved her laughs very similar to the main character and has the carefree lifestyle that Robin's savior was a proponent of. Add into the mix that the hero always sticks by his crew no matter what, and you see how the tenuous trust made by the subconscious similarities Robin had became true trust.

And that's how good anime/manga does characterization.

But it often gets missed because in these series most people pay attention to how Robin can snap a whole ship's crew spines at the same time.

I may have worded this improperly, i meant the other way around, the stoned person forgives those who stoned him just because they're sorry, even if he was stoned without a good reason, like he just looked evil but really wasn't.

Oh, I understood perfectly what you meant, no worries. It's not like 90% of the fics that have someone been stoned for a thousand years and turns out to be the protagonist don't have that EXACT thing going on.

6511684
Thanks for backing me up. And by the way, you just put into my attention how condescendind the line 'of course the tool forgives' sounds. I'll have to make a note of that, it might be useful :D

6511668 Oddly enough, the answer is surprisingly simple: because some people actually ARE that stupid IRL. I mean if the hotel in Vegas (where the killer shot from) is suing the victims and families of the victims, I would say that is solid evidence of precisely how stupid people are.

6511694
Oh i never doubted this possibility.

6511703
I never doubt the stupidity of people, as Einstein said

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Dunno if this is a real quote bit it's accurate.
But so many of them? in this case Celestia could be just old and senile but no one questions her decision, her guards, fellow princesses, advisors, nobles, mane six not even characters that aren't ponies,

Mentally Advanced Series!
It’s on YouTube.

6511668
I have seen this a whole lot and it is problematic to be sure. For the most part I will agree with the 'tool' concept. The character stops being a person and becomes a function of plot. Also I hate to admit this, but Celestia is really irresponsible in the show. She might have decided to banish someone and let other people deal with the consequences. It seems to me only Twilight really shoots for interracial relations. Then again there is also tartarus, if he was a force of nature villain threatening her rule, he'd go there, but if he's only a small time murderer she might not care that much.

In all honesty I just wanted to point out that there are people who have no ability to understand consequence of actions, even as adults. I wrote a story once with a couple of sisters who were nineteen years old. My friends all told me that the characters were unbelievable and acted like thirteen year olds rather then adults. Then one of my friends met my thirty six year old sister, looked at me and said, "Dude, she's exactly like the characters in your book." I would argue my sister isn't stupid but rather has stunted developmental growth from drug use in her teens. People who are capable of making these kinds of 'moronic' decisions do exist, but they also usually don't get put on a throne for the entire kingdom to worship lol.

Usually though, the mornic characters are there to be used for plot without a second thought. Or to follow troupes they see somewhere else. I have made a lot of accidental mistakes like this in my first batch of stories due to following what I've seen done in tv shows and movies.

In defense of the whole 'turned to stone forgiveness thing' in other mediums where the same exact thing happens it might come from someone who's used to being abused with no self esteem, they might forgive their oppresses as they have normalized the abuse. So if their abuser (even if that's the main heroes of the story) apologize, they might just forgive them. Heck they might even start to trust them again. (This could be a fun story for a villain.)

6511775
Yep, the Mentally Advanced Series pretty much tares these tropes apart in their comedy. I love that.

6511668
Well if people play the 'cannon' role as it were and use the charaters likness based off of the show, it's easy to make them be rather stupid and if done right, it adds comedy to a serious fic. I mean in Celestia's case, keeping her persona. What idiot sends 6 teenage, untrained, poorly equiped girls into the most dangerous forest that know one understands to catch her deranged drmon possed sister? Or the various other adventures they go on, when she could have just sent one of the two armies Equestria has?

6511864

I mean in Celestia's case, keeping her persona. What idiot sends 6 teenage, untrained, poorly equiped girls into the most dangerous forest that know one understands to catch her deranged drmon possed sister?

One who is smart enough, wise enough, and good enough that makes it work? I mean, you can't argue with the results in-universe. You can keep saying 'what if' all day long, but in the end Celestia's actions have lead to not only defusing world-ending threats but also often enough gaining those powerful individuals as loyal allies. Where on the other hand, deployment of armies at every threat would see such allies lost at best, a death toll way above and beyond the current of zero deaths most possibly, and complete failure and end of the nation/world at worst.

6511808

In all honesty I just wanted to point out that there are people who have no ability to understand consequence of actions, even as adults.

That is completely true. I was one. Their existence however does not mean freedom to make over half the population of your world be such, and as you said yourself, if Celestia was like that then she would have gotten the boot a lot sooner in her one thousand years of reign.

In defense of the whole 'turned to stone forgiveness thing' in other mediums where the same exact thing happens it might come from someone who's used to being abused with no self esteem, they might forgive their oppresses as they have normalized the abuse.

That kind of character would actually be interesting to see, but even if that is offered as a reason by the author, you don't see this being repeated in the story again. A trait that is used in a single occasion or only when it is allowing the author to achieve what he wants is another tool and not characterization.

She might have decided to banish someone and let other people deal with the consequences. It seems to me only Twilight really shoots for interracial relations. Then again there is also tartarus, if he was a force of nature villain threatening her rule, he'd go there, but if he's only a small time murderer she might not care that much.

This is all conjecture though and only appliable by taking one aspect of her character and pulling the throttle at the max. You never see her do something like that or even consider it.

6511902
Yeah if the character pulls out a trait that only shows up once its kind of golden age superman syndrome where he got new powers every week to fight a new villain just because. Same goes for golden age Batman with his shark repellent. I think this thread might have inspired me to start work on a new story though lol.

And yeah, that is all conjecture. We're dealing with a world that as far as i can tell doesn't have much of a police force, I don't think Ponyville even has a crisis time militia. They have six heroes now, but what about before Twilight's group showed up? This side of Equestria's culture is sadly not explored very much. Though I do like to imagine that Applejack could be a sheriff if need be. XD

6512025
Indeed, though I mean more of a personality trait. Like having a character being very forgiving but only when the plot needs it once and then slaughtering or torturing everyone else and laughing about it.

As far as policing goes... We do see that Appleloosa has a sherrif, and I think it's supposed to be smaller than Ponyville or similar. Maybe Ponyville has a few guards as well but we never see them. I've been thinking of writing a story about it. A lonely guard who never has anything to do or gets there after it's all over, ever since the girls took up arms. He spends his days polishing his armor and teaching frogs to walk.

6512081
hehehe I love that story concept. XD

6511902
Like I said, for the sake of comedy or keeping the cannon persona, it works. If you use tv logic, you can play it off. If you use actual, real world logic you have to be really really stupid to let something happen a second time.

6511668
I think I can agree with that, I have seen several stories mature or not, where they lack some kind of common sense.

Now the fic begins with the heroes trying to catch the mad scientist, and even thou everyone knows that Celestia basically let him free no one questions this, like what will be the end of this fic Celestia again "banishes" him.

This makes me think of the whole "Celestia never makes mistakes so let ignore it" thing.

The author in this fic defends Celestia saying she's to kind, but that's moronic, so what she releases every criminal?

It's either that or she lived so long, "of course" she has to learn only the right things and be the most clever person/pony in and outside of Equestria. I don't hate her, but how she is often displayed.......sometimes it also just get's boring.

This may have turned into a rant about a certain fic, but there are other fic that i could rant on how the characters don't question the most basic of issues, like the main trope of forgiveness, oh you trapped in stone for a 1000 years for no good reason while i was fully conciseness the whole but you're really sorry i suppose it's ok then.

I already liked the topic, because someone finally talks about it again and stuff. I mean I don't want to hate but I enjoy this kind of talk once in a while since it also concentrates on mistakes about certain characters or other stuff.
Yep the part where you said "oh your really sorry?, I guess then it is okay" part made me remember all those stories that had annoyed me one or two years before. I just like it to remember how true it is what you said.

I'm going to explain the short version
One of the things I hate is when we have a main char let's say Trixie, her mother and her both made problems, the father killed himself and when he still was alive her mother just went away with another Mare not really trying that hard to get to see her.
When Trixie has three Marefriends they meet again and more or less both apologize.
However all of her Marefriends and her mothers friend kind of only give her the fault.
1. I hate it if it's always the main char that get's the whole fault for everything or the bag of problems (at least it looks like that often enough).
2. Then well I wanted to say something else, but I also disliked it how everyone seems to forgett that there were "two" ponies who did something wrong and that Trixie had the right to be a bit angry.

Lately I also get the feeling many of the characters are people you find on the street in a bad neighbourhood.

6511682

I understood it, but you probably fixed it already.

6511692
Hhhmmm not sure if we mean the same thing, but I guess it would look more interessting if they would explain it more sometimes.

6511696

Then she suddenly out of the blue decides to join the protagonist's pirate crew and uncharacteristically trusts the protagonist (captain).

I kind of remember that it was a trust thing and that Luffy kind of got trough her thick skull that one moment which made her take a liking to them. Maybe you could say she saw a possible future for herself? I remember the episode but I would need to see it again to be 100% sure.

Oh I think I just found the part where you explained it, more or less just in more detail than me.

But so many of them? in this case Celestia could be just old and senile but no one questions her decision, her guards, fellow princesses, advisors, nobles, mane six not even characters that aren't ponies,

Well just like in harem stories or just a story where they take an anime character like Naruto to Equestria, I always think there could be some that don'T fall in love with him, just like there could be a few characters who aren't happy with Celestia or her decision no matter how happy everyone is with her in the show.

6511808

Also I hate to admit this, but Celestia is really irresponsible in the show.

It's just no one ever wanted to admit it when I said something like that. It was probably just the authors pride or fans of those certain stories.

People who are capable of making these kinds of 'moronic' decisions do exist, but they also usually don't get put on a throne for the entire kingdom to worship lol.

No they only get as far as being bosses of some shops and toture their trainee.

6511864
A while ago I was more concerned about how Twilight more or less got turned into a princess against her will and seems to think so highly of Celestia and wanting to please her that she just went with the idea.

6511668
New to fanfiction huh?

6512651
Nah, was just to lazy to post this thread for the longest time plus in most fics this issue isn't so prominent, it's just a few last fics that I read where this issue truly shines.
Like in the case I presented Celestia released a mad pony who tortured and experimented on ponies and everypony is fine with it, Even the families and friends of the victims?

6511668

im not kidding Celestia "banishes" him out of Equestria, not to the Moon thou just a few miles outside Equestria border, and what does the villain do? he walks right back into Equestria to resume his "work".

...that's how it works, though. The notion of exile rather revolves around the idea of tossing someone out of your country and expecting them to not come waltzing right back in on pain of "or else." Historically, that has worked rather well, because mostly they stay away rather than voluntarily walk back to their own execution. At a time when a distance of a hundred miles meant two weeks of travel and the absence of faster methods made physically sending a letter and waiting twice that long for any response to even arrive, it was rather effective at neutering political nuisances... or really any kind of nuisance. Can't be much of a bother if you're too busy being a bother elsewhere and all your stuff is still here.

6512784
Well Equestria has trains, so they can travel decently fast, and unless there were wanted posters or all police knew how the criminal looked he could just buy a ticket or sneak in.
But I digress I can't really argue your point exile was and in some places still is a valid punishment.
But remember we're talking about Celestia here, a ruler who was to kind to execute or imprison him but instead realese him so he can continue to torture and murder ponies and other races outside of Equestria.

Do you see the problem here? For us this makes sense because we simply don't care about other nations and its people.

6512784
6512825
On that related banishing note, has Celestia ever EVEN banished someone or made the threat herself apart from her sister (who she sent far enough I suppose) or Twilight's rants among which she counted magic kindergarten an even worse option?

Cause I keep seeing 'banishment this' and 'banishment that' but not really a lot of banishment in the show.

P.S. Nice to see ya again, Wlam!

6512825

But remember we're talking about Celestia here, a ruler who was to kind to execute or imprison him but instead realese him so he can continue to torture and murder ponies and other races outside of Equestria.

There's a reason why banishment was really only applicable to the landed nobility as an effective punishment. When your power base and wealth mostly comes in form of real estate, you can't exactly pick it up and take it with you, so they're as good as neutered as a threat of any kind. It's not a useful punishment or deterrent in this particular situation for a lot of the same reasons, so I can't argue there, but that there's theoretically nothing preventing an exile from just coming back anyway isn't really one of them.