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This is something that I have got into arguments with many people. Many people will say, "Oh heaven is in the sky and hell is underground." Now this is where the left-brained side of me takes over.

Let's look at it this way. If it is in the sky, you would have commercial air traffic and rockets traveling through it. Just imagine, a 747 flying right over God's throne and perhaps causing a ton of damage up there. Regarding what is underground, you have the crust, the mantle and the core. Yes there are plenty of openings under ground but certainly nothing that would be able to host the fire and brimstone of hell....well nothing big enough anyway.

My view is that they are in their own dimensions, places that us mortals can not reach while we are alive. Separate, closed off universes perhaps? Feel free to disagree with me but I think the whole, "It's in the sky and it is underground" thing just doesn't make sense.

6645889

My understanding is that Heaven and hell are not physical locations. They cannot be visited under normal circumstances.

6645889
It think in the case of Heaven, Saint Paul in one of his letters said there are three types. The first heaven is the sky, the second is celestial space and the third is the spiritual heaven.

Hell for me his not the fire and brimstone of popular thought. Hell is the place as far away from God as possible, outside the presence of God, much like Cain after the first murder.

6646297
Hence why some variants of Hell have have the lower levels be ice cold

6646873
Pretty sure the frozen section of hell was just from Dante's Inferno. That's not in the Bible.

6646886
Hence why I said variants

6645889

My view is that they are in their own dimensions, places that us mortals can not reach while we are alive. Separate, closed off universes perhaps?

That really sounds like you are just making crap up.
6645935

My understanding is that...

6646297

I think in the case of Heaven...

6646886

Pretty sure the...

It’s all just opinions and assertions. How are these beliefs any different from ancient Egyptian or Norse beliefs about the afterlife? What is the reliable method you used to reach your conclusions?
I would love to learn what, if anything, is beyond the veil of death. Show some evidence of your assertions or be honest and admit that you have no idea what if any afterlife exists.

6648603

Show some evidence of your assertions or be honest and admit that you have no idea what if any afterlife exists.

I have seen spirits for myself and I have recorded them while doing EVP sessions. Some of them are simple earth bound spirits and some are not so friendly, spirits that put forth negative energy.

6648708

Some of them are simple earth bound spirits and some are not so friendly, spirits that put forth negative energy.

This reminds me of my great grandmother's stories where she would meet ghosts.

6648603

What is the reliable method you used to reach your conclusions?

Here is where the line "speak where The Bible speak and silence where the Bible silence" comes in. I'm fairly certain that Jesus made some assertions that his father is "Up there" (have to search for the verses) and, when he went back to heaven, he also went up to the skies but that's about it. Nothing else can be used to infer where it is with exactitude. The same way, there is nothing to gain when debating about where or how is both Heaven and Hell located or made up except if you want to write a novel.

6648708
What’s an EVP session?

Could you describe what you saw in more detail? How did you determine that what you saw was a spirit?

6649525
I agree that there’s nothing to gain debating where people think heaven and hell are without a method to actually test and demonstrate where heaven and hell are (and if they even exist).

Why should we care what the bible/Jesus says?

6650781

Because The Bible (which is God's word, thus, Jesus's as well) talks about what will happen after the end of times and how to avoid the eternal doom. That's the short version.

A hidden layer of reality, God's presence, which is bliss for those who love Him and torment for those who don't.

6652377
How did you determine that the bible is gods word? (I think I asked this question elsewhere too, so you can link your answer here if you want).

6654144
What does god’s presence do for people that don’t believe he exists, but upon finding out he exists after death humbly admit to being wrong?

6654579
I agree. I would go further and say that you don’t know gods preference for anything else, because you don’t even know that he exists. You only believe it. If you can’t show it then you don’t know it.

6657917
I'm slowly drifting away from Christianity back to old familiar Pantheism anyway.

6658001
Cool. What does that mean? What do pantheists believe?

6658089
The first paragraph of the Wikipedia article for pantheism will probably give you an idea of what he believes:

"Pantheism is the belief that reality is identical with divinity, or that all-things compose an all-encompassing, immanent god. Pantheist belief does not recognize a distinct personal anthropomorphic god and instead characterizes a broad range of doctrines differing in forms of relationships between reality and divinity."

6658149
Ah, thanks for that Prof. Reynolds.
6658001
I guess the question I meant to ask is: what do you believe and why? Like what’s motivating you to change your mind?

6658233
1. The doctrine of eternal torment is extraordinarily repugnant to a moral mind. I can pretend that this doctrine isn't scriptural-my God how I want to!-but I have basic reading comprehension and some knowledge of Greek so I can't. Unfortunately, Christians have made this disturbing belief the centerpiece of their religion.

2. Christians have a basic cynicism which I do not share. I don't believe human beings are inherently sinful or that the world is under the rule of Satan.

3. I believe Nature is the self-created source and the only thing worthy of our awe and worship. I genuinely believe we need a new religion as the old ones are dying. If not religion, we need a new worldview for our coming post-Capitalist, post-Christian world. We're entering a new age and we can't face the challenges of our future with old modalities as our guide.

6648603
How do you feel about near death experiences?

6658236
Fascinating! 1 and 2 I completely agree with. I would like to plant a flag here and say that just because the god of the bible and some of the other beliefs surrounding Christianity are morally repugnant, that in no way demonstrates that god and the other claims of Christianity are untrue. (Not that you are saying that or anything!).

3 you loose me, at least for parts of it.

I believe Nature is the self-created source

Huh?

the only thing worthy of our awe and worship.

Awe yes. Worship... why?

I genuinely believe we need a new religion as the old ones are dying.

Why? When you cure cancer you don’t look for something to replace it with.

If not religion, we need a new worldview for our coming post-Capitalist, post-Christian world.

Post Christian/religious world view I completely agree. I think that secular humanism fits the bill quite nicely. Post-capitalist... what? What’s wrong with capitalism? (Capitalism with limits, not completely unleashed Laissez-faire capitalism).

We're entering a new age and we can't face the challenges of our future with old modalities as our guide.

I completely agree. We need to have sensible 21st century conversations about morality and how to tackle the biggest issues facing our world.

6658241
I don’t really feel anything about them.
I know that they sometimes happen, and I always wish the best for people that are in life threatening situations, but I don’t think they are really that significant. The most important part of the term ‘near death experience’ is the word ‘near’. Whatever a person experiences while their brain is in an oxygen deprived state is going to be suspect.

Human perception is coloured by individual experience. Hindus tend to see Hindu iconography during their near death experiences, same as Muslims and Christians and non believers. This is pretty good evidence that near death testimony is a product of the subconscious (just like dreams evidently are). Can I say that for sure? No. I’m open to the possibility of an afterlife, but the time to believe that one or more actually exists is after there is evidence for it, and personal testimony from people that we know were cognitively compromised at the time definitely doesn’t count as evidence (personal testimony is considered an extremely low form of evidence at the best of times, depriving someone of oxygen can only make it less reliable!).

6658689
Everything we have comes from Nature (food, medicine, etc.) So, whether Nature is conscious or not we owe Nature gratitude. People clearly need to worship something and better Nature than the state as in Communism. In addition, a renewed appreciation of Nature will help us to start taking better care of our planet.

We say we live in a democratic society, but a small elite has ownership which the majority are dispossessed of. (You own your own house? I bet the bank does.) I theorize that worker owned cooperatives will overtake Capitalism.

6658960

...whether Nature is conscious or not we owe Nature gratitude.

Hmm, that’s an interesting way to look at it. I think I agree, I am always thankful of positive things in my life whether they came from another conscious being or something else (like good weather or a lucky coin flip).

People clearly need to worship something and better Nature than the state as in Communism.

I reject the assertion that people need something to worship. Many people (myself included) clearly have no such need. You won’t ever see me defend communism though, or any dogmatic authoritative belief system.

In addition, a renewed appreciation of Nature will help us to start taking better care of our planet.

I 100% agree. More empathy and knowledge and appreciation of nature is absolutely an excellent goal to support!

We say we live in a democratic society, but a small elite has ownership which the majority are dispossessed of. (You own your own house? I bet the bank does.) I theorize that worker owned cooperatives will overtake Capitalism.

I would love to have this conversation with you, but I think before getting into it we would need to better define terms. What you are describing sounds a lot like communism to me, but a second ago you denounced it... I just don’t want to misunderstand you lol. Do you want to make a new thread about it?

6659130
Communism would be state-owned businesses. I'm a Distrubutist. That is, I believe the private ownership of property should be as widely distributed as possible. (That is small businesses, cooperatives, family farms, guilds, etc.)

6654340

Consistency on what is described, archeological findings that prove true what can be found in there as well as the book passing the test that challenges its veracity.

6659559

Consistency on what is described,

Does this prove god?

archeological findings that prove true

Sure, if the bible mentions a city and we have evidence that the city exists/existed then great. If the bible also mentions a miracle occurring in the city then that’s where you lose me. How does archeological evidence demonstrating the city exists in any way prove that a miracle happened there?

as well as the book passing the test that challenges its veracity.

Can you expand on this? What is the test and how did it pass?

6659814

Does this prove god?

Does science needs consistency to prove something as true?

If the bible also mentions a miracle occurring in the city then that’s where you lose me. How does archeological evidence demonstrating the city exists in any way prove that a miracle happened there?

If we take in example Sodom and Gomorrah, just look at the ground (since that kind of impact leave marks) or, if we talk about the ten plagues, look for archaeological findings about a time period where those events coincide with what was described.

Can you expand on this? What is the test and how did it pass?

Many historians have challenged The Bible by reading what it contains and how correct it is with the events it describes and many have come to the conclusion of them being very accurate, with one of argument used by people that research history that "the level of detail isn't something you can come up with, for it is easier to keep a lie with little detail than by making it as detailed as possible". Heck, The Bible is even used as a base to get some historical events on Human History.

6668050

Does this prove god?

Does science needs consistency to prove something as true?

Consistency is a requirement, but consistency alone doesn't prove anything. There needs to be an independently verifiable method as well.
If all you have is that the Bible is consistent with archaeology, then that is insufficient to demonstrate your conclusion. (That doesn't mean that your conclusion is false, it just means that you can't reliably claim that it is true.)

If the bible also mentions a miracle occurring in the city then that’s where you lose me. How does archaeological evidence demonstrating the city exists in any way prove that a miracle happened there?

If we take in example Sodom and Gomorrah, just look at the ground (since that kind of impact leave marks) or, if we talk about the ten plagues, look for archaeological findings about a time period where those events coincide with what was described.

I have two thoughts here.
1) I'm curious where the peer reviewed study's are published that show archaeological evidence of miracles in these locations.
2) It depends massively on the nature of the claim, so each one would have to be looked at individually. If we find evidence that a swarm of locus's devastated Egypt a few thousand years ago and that is consistent with the biblical account, cool. Maybe the writers new about the swarm and therefore included it in their mythology, that's fine. This doesn't prove that the swarm came from god. It just means that the swarm actually happened. Same with the other miracles.

So to prove god through the bible you have to 1) Demonstrate that something described in the bible actually happened and then 2) Demonstrate that this miraculous thing came from a supernatural source and then 3) Demonstrate that the supernatural source is the god as described in the bible. For all three of these demonstrations, you need to provide a methodology (that includes falsification) that others can replicate. Most importantly, the people that replicate your method must consistently get the same results you did.

Can you expand on this? What is the test and how did it pass?

Many historians have challenged The Bible by reading what it contains and how correct it is with the events it describes and many have come to the conclusion of them being very accurate, with one of argument used by people that research history that "the level of detail isn't something you can come up with, for it is easier to keep a lie with little detail than by making it as detailed as possible". Heck, The Bible is even used as a base to get some historical events on Human History.

Yes, I completely agree that there is some valuable insight into human history contained in the bible. That doesn't mean that it's 100% accurate on every claim especially on the miraculous claims.

6658236

I can pretend that this doctrine isn't scriptural-my God how I want to!-but I have basic reading comprehension and some knowledge of Greek so I can't.

I personally don't believe it's scriptural, and many early church fathers didn't seem to think so either.
https://tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
Belief in an eternal hell actually seems to have been a minority opinion in the early church, not gaining popularity until the Greek word aionios was translated (and possibly mistranslated) as aeternam in the Latin bible.

6668313

Belief in an eternal hell actually seems to have been a minority opinion in the early church

In addition to universal reconciliation, another view that was taught by some Church Fathers was something called "conditional immortality", that souls are not immortal in and of themselves, and that the soul's immortality is conditional and is received by faith in Christ. Coupled with this is the view that the wicked are not tormented forever, but are completely consumed by the fires of hell (sometimes called "annihilationism").

It's not just a view held by Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh-day Adventists, but was held by Church Fathers like Irenaeus, Athanasius (famous for confronting the Arian heresy), Ignatius of Antioch, and the writer of the Epistle of Barnabas (written between 70-132 AD).
http://rethinkinghell.com/2014/10/11/hell-in-the-times-were-the-early-church-fathers-vague-in-their-support-of-conditional-immortality/

For the first 500 years or so of Christianity, all three views (eternal conscious torment, universal reconciliation, and conditional immortality) coexisted side by side with little controversy until the Western (Roman) Church pushed for the eternal conscious torment view, and it carried over into Protestantism during the Reformation centuries later.

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6668345
The fact that Christians disagree about how to interpret scripture is itself a problem. It doesn't matter who has the correct translation, or how many early church leaders believed it, what matters is if your doctrine actually maps onto reality.

Whether it's hell or homosexuality, arguing about what you think scripture says is meaningless when we are speaking of the reality of our universe. If we could investigate the afterlife, speak to dead people and actually have them respond, then we could say with confidence what actions in this world impact our experience in the next. Until a method is provided that lets us test what religious belief (if any) is actually true, it is irrational to believe any of them.

6668257

So to prove god through the bible you have to 1) Demonstrate that something described in the bible actually happened and then 2) Demonstrate that this miraculous thing came from a supernatural source and then 3) Demonstrate that the supernatural source is the god as described in the bible. For all three of these demonstrations, you need to provide a methodology (that includes falsification) that others can replicate. Most importantly, the people that replicate your method must consistently get the same results you did.

The end of the Bronze Age (one of the events that happened around that era) includes a volcanic eruption that caused a series of reactions that (when looked at how it affected Egypt) it shows practically all the ten plagues of Egypt. I remember how History Channel (before being run by aliens) made a documentary about it (that I recorded on VHS over a decade ago) called the Exodus Decoded and much of the stuff fits as how the Exodus could have happened if you are curious.

That doesn't mean that it's 100% accurate on every claim especially on the miraculous claims.

That's why its challenged, to see if it's 100% accurate. So far, it has passed most of the test, with the few impossible to be made being the miracles themselves but those are impossible to verify.

6668484

arguing about what you think scripture says is meaningless when we are speaking of the reality of our universe

It's meaningless to you.

You've already been told again and again and again that most of us Christians believe what we believe because of personal experiences. We see no reason to dismiss those experiences just because they can't be empirically tested and verified by someone else. For us, God and Christianity are reality, so determining what the Scriptures actually say and mean is of utmost importance to us. And to be totally honest, we don't really care what you think about that.

You might object, "What if someone else has experiences that contradict yours?" Simple answer: I don't care. I'm responsible for making decisions based on my own experiences, not on the experiences of others.

Sorry if that's not good enough for you, but that's just the way it is.

6669656
Hear hear. Of course, as long as Majorshane and all the other non believers on this channel continue to want to suppress the truth that has been made clear to them from the beginning (Romans 1:18-23) they will bend over in any direction they have to to continue to convince themselves, let alone us, that they somehow speaks the truth. The battle isn't really against ignorance, it's against unrighteousness, just as it was for we who believe before we came to repentance. Praying for Majorshane is above all the best thing we do.

6669362

The end of the Bronze Age (one of the events that happened around that era) includes a volcanic eruption that caused a series of reactions that (when looked at how it affected Egypt) it shows practically all the ten plagues of Egypt. I remember how History Channel (before being run by aliens) made a documentary about it (that I recorded on VHS over a decade ago) called the Exodus Decoded and much of the stuff fits as how the Exodus could have happened if you are curious.

Great! Here is a natural explanation for the stories of the bible, no god required. Thanks for reaffirming my athiesm.

That doesn't mean that it's 100% accurate on every claim especially on the miraculous claims.

That's why its challenged, to see if it's 100% accurate. So far, it has passed most of the test, with the few impossible to be made being the miracles themselves but those are impossible to verify.

Not a single miraculous claim of the bible (or any other holy book) has ever been verified as true. If that's what you meant by 'passed most of the test', then you are mistaken. (Or I am mistaken, please provide citations!)

6669656

It's meaningless to you.

If we are speaking about what is demonstrably true, then it is meaningless period. If you just want to talk about what the bible says because you like studying the culture and literature of ancient cultures, then it is very meaningful!

You've already been told again and again and again that most of us Christians believe what we believe because of personal experiences. We see no reason to dismiss those experiences just because they can't be empirically tested and verified by someone else.

Great! My questions are: do you care if your beliefs are true and is personal unverified experience a reliable method to determining truth?

For us, God and Christianity are reality,

You are wrong. There’s no ‘my reality’ and ‘your reality’, there’s just the one reality that we all share. The same reality that your god is not evidently a part of.

so determining what the Scriptures actually say and mean is of utmost importance to us.

Cool, I know people that are intense about their studying of Greek mythology. Others are intense about Star Trek. You are intense about the Christian mythology, I respect and support that.

And to be totally honest, we don't really care what you think about that.

Well, that’s not quite accurate. I’ve received pms from many users in this group and had some fascinating conversations. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don’t, but obviously they care enough to read my comments and respond.
More importantly, all I ever really do is ask people to back up their claims with evidence. I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. That’s why I’m here, if you guys are right about god and hell and stuff, I think that’s of ultimate importance to learn about ASAP!

You might object, "What if someone else has experiences that contradict yours?" Simple answer: I don't care.

That answers my earlier question: ‘do you care if your beliefs are true?’
I will still defend your right to believe what you want, I just simply disagree.

That pretty much ends the conversation. I care if my beliefs are true, you don’t.
Ciao

6669774
It’s interesting that you took my honest ignorance of something and used it to accuse me of purposefully misrepresenting you on another thread, but here you are not only misrepresenting my position but calling me ‘unrighteous’. Like before, I am open to being educated and enlightened. The truth has nothing to fear from honest and open inquiry. When you stifle that inquiry by refusing to have the conversation and instead lie about me trying to ‘surprise suppress the truth’, you really show your true colours.
Yes, please pray to your god that he shows himself to me! Let me know what he says. While you are busy praying for me, I will think for you.

When you are ready to actually do your duty as spelled out in 1 Peter 3:15, I’ll be here.

6672211

You are wrong. There’s no ‘my reality’ and ‘your reality’, there’s just the one reality that we all share.

I'm well aware there's no such thing as subjective reality. That doesn't change the fact that people base their actions and decisions on what they perceive to be true. I believe God is real, so I live like he actually is. That's what I meant. That's why understanding and interpreting Scripture is meaningful to me and other Christians.

I care if my beliefs are true, you don’t.

Unlike you, I don't restrict my view of the truth to only things that are scientifically proven. I have accepted that I can't scientifically prove God's existence, and am instead content to rely on a combination of personal experiences and philosophical arguments. I care very much whether my beliefs are true. I am actually very certain they are true, and I see no need to demand scientific proof that I know I'm not going to get.

6672160

Great! Here is a natural explanation for the stories of the bible, no god required

What makes you think that no god was required? I already said that God is someone who usually acts inside the rules he creates so the explanation doesn't overule his hand playing in there.

Not a single miraculous claim of the bible (or any other holy book) has ever been verified as true.

That's the reason why they are called miracles. The same ways, The Bible has passed tests like veracity, age, names, events, etc.

6672317
Actually, I think it's more Matthew 7:6

Matthew 7:6 (ESV) “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

As for calling you unrighteous, you ARE unrighteous.

Romans 1:18 (ESV) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

Guess what, I'm unrighteous too, I am well aware that when I point a finger at you I have three pointing back at me. Just like you now, there was a time in my life I also loved the darkness of willful ignorance. It's a common human problem caused by out inborn love of sin.

John 3:18-21 (ESV) 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

I only stopped when the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, let the light shine in, and I finally started learning wisdom, and the true source of it.

Proverbs 3:5-8 (ESV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.
7 Be not wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.
8 It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones.

But again, until the Holy Spirit comes and opens you eyes you will not trust the truth. Which brings us back to

1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV) The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 (ESV)
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

So, yeah, you can come on a Christian chat channel dedicated to My Little Pony fandom if you want (presumably by choice, I hope you were not dragged here against your will), ignore the MLP fandom (pretty much like everyone else does I admit), and tell us how you like some things about Christianity, but don't accept other things unless some Christian can explain them with science, but do you really not get how foolish you sound, and that it makes it hard for us to take you seriously?

Psalm 14 (ESV)
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds;
there is none who does good.
2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good, not even one.
4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread
and do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great terror,
for God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You would shame the plans of the poor,
but the Lord is his refuge.
7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

But there is hope.

Isaiah 53:6 (ESV) All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

So I will pray to my God for you, but in all honesty you would be better off thinking about Him, rather than wasting your time deluding yourself that you are thinking for me.

6672828

I'm well aware there's no such thing as subjective reality. That doesn't change the fact that people base their actions and decisions on what they perceive to be true. I believe God is real, so I live like he actually is. That's what I meant. That's why understanding and interpreting Scripture is meaningful to me and other Christians.

Cool, I support your right to believe that. What is your opinion on climate change, teaching creation in science classrooms, abortion clinics, and the age of the earth?

Unlike you, I don't restrict my view of the truth to only things that are scientifically proven.

I’m an apistevist, meaning I only believe things that are demonstrably true. That’s not a restriction, that’s a safety measure to prevent myself from believing things that aren’t likely to be true.

(I) rely on a combination of personal experiences and philosophical arguments. I care very much whether my beliefs are true. I am actually very certain they are true,

Forget religion for a second. Are philosophical arguments that can’t be tested, and individual personal experience, reliable methods of determining truth? Could other people use the same methods but come to different (false) conclusions about reality?

I have accepted that I can't scientifically prove God's existence... I see no need to demand scientific proof that I know I'm not going to get.

Well if god exists then there should be evidence of his existence (maybe we just haven’t found it yet, I’m cool with that being a possibility). To say that you accept something as true that you know you won’t ever get proof for demonstrates your cognitive dissonance. You are simultaneously admitting that god isn’t real while also saying that our believe anyway. Again, that’s fine. As long as you don’t say “god is real” and only ever say “I believe in god” then we have no disagreement.

6673779

What makes you think that no god was required? I already said that God is someone who usually acts inside the rules he creates so the explanation doesn't overule his hand playing in there.

Cool, provide evidence of your claim and I’ll believe it. In the meantime you can keep spouting your fairy tails just don’t expect others to take you seriously.

Not a single miraculous claim of the bible (or any other holy book) has ever been verified as true.

That's the reason why they are called miracles.

Because they are unverified? Are you admitting that miracle is just the label you slap on things that are not shown to be true? In that case, I agree. Your god is a miracle.

The same ways, The Bible has passed tests like veracity, age, names, events, etc.

Sure, I agree that most of the dates and names and events of the bible have historical accuracy (with some obvious exceptions). It’s the supernatural claims that’s haven’t been verified that we disagree on. You believe them without evidence, I am not that gullible. Simple really.

6673886
Why are you quoting the bible to me?

6674094
Because, being God's word it is the ultimate authority, and you need to hear it.

Wait, what's that? You don't believe it? Of course you don't, but that doesn't invalidate it, it only shows you are a fool.

https://www.gotquestions.org/fool-heart-no-God.html

Every time you act like a disbelieving fool you confirm the truth of the bible. If you are going to go around doing what the bible says you will how can I do anything but believe it?

6674090

Are philosophical arguments that can’t be tested... reliable methods of determining truth?

Proving the reliability of science itself depends on the Principle of Sufficient Reason (which you yourself have even used when you've said, "I see no reason to believe X"). The PSR is a philosophical argument that can't be scientifically tested (attempting to do so would constitute circular reasoning and begging the question anyway, relying on science to prove its own reliability). You'd better hope philosophical arguments can be a reliable method of determining truth, because if they aren't, then even science itself is by extension on very shaky ground as far as its reliability is concerned.

To say that you accept something as true that you know you won’t ever get proof for demonstrates your cognitive dissonance.

Did I say "ever?" No, I didn't. Don't put words in my mouth.

As long as you don’t say “god is real” and only ever say “I believe in god” then we have no disagreement.

I'll say whatever I want, regardless of whether you agree with me.

6674093

Cool, provide evidence of your claim and I’ll believe it. In the meantime you can keep spouting your fairy tails just don’t expect others to take you seriously.

So you now try to hide behind "lack of evidence" (Fallacy Ad Silentio) and shout "fairy tale" (Fallacy Ad Nauseum)? That's quite mature.

Because they are unverified? Are you admitting that miracle is just the label you slap on things that are not shown to be true? In that case, I agree. Your god is a miracle.

Miracle is when something deemed impossible happened, regardless of what others say about it. Are you really going to be visceral anytime you are faced with stuff you don't want to understand?

It’s the supernatural claims that’s haven’t been verified that we disagree on. You believe them without evidence, I am not that gullible. Simple really.

Gullible is to not believe just because you have no evidence, that makes you no different from the people you so much are trying to label as "irrational".

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