He calmly laid himself down upon the immense chair they'd brought in and looked her over, golden eyes blinking slowly as he, High Elder Spyrokan of the Draconic City of Hearthstone, looked over the Princess of Friendship. His scales were as brilliant a shade of regal purple as her own fur, a mighty set of golden horns atop his head with powerful, well-toned muscles and a set of wings which had golden rings embedded into singular spike atop them. He calmly nodded at her as she trotted into the room, and Twilight Sparkle floated over a notepad as she sat down to speak.
"I appreciate you coming here. You and the other leaders being here to sign the treaty for the Changelings was a necessity, but you agreeing to my questions wasn't. The fact you're doing it is very kind of you." She admitted with a nod.
High Elder Spyrokan gave a small nod to her and Twilight had to admit she saw a lot of Spike in him. The same kind of chest scales, the color of his body, that smile, the cute tail he had, which was an odd contrast to the rest of his form. She almost wanted to ask, but she decided "not yet" as the High Elder of the Dragons gestured at her. "Many of our races are signing this treaty to apply equal treatment to Changelings under protest. Nevertheless, I believe in second chances, even if I think Queen Chrysalis is a disgusting little bug who should be used for firewood for one of our bonfire nights."
"I think she'd be too greasy to be good firewood." Princess Twilight admitted with a wave of her hoof as Spyrokan let out a laugh, a rich, yet surprisingly airy sound that lilted through the air as he smiled warmly at her.
"Good point. You are quite the wit. You should come to one of our bonfire nights. We erect a gigantic statue of our worst enemies and then set them on fire, we sing, we dance, we drink excessive amounts of alcohol, and we let it all hang out." He informed her. "Which is a welcome change from how we used to do it."
"Which was?"
"First you'd get drunk, then get some goats. What happens next nobody was quite sure, but the death rate got so high we had to make changes."
"I suppose your new way is downright civilized by comparison." Twilight admitted with a nod. "But don't your kind, well...you're famous for not handling drinks well."
"Which is why we also stopped doing bonfires within Hearthstone. Because it kept burning down. Do you know how hard it is for solid granite to burn down?" High Elder Spyrokan remarked with a cringe. "Immensely hard."
"You don't need to necessarily do these bonfires if you're worried they'll hurt you or your cities."
High Elder Spyrokan shook his head. "But my people like it. And I wish for them to be happy. It's really a small thing in the grand scheme of things, but when you get down to it, all of life is made up of these small, tiny moments that give you quiet joys which get you through the day." He told her with a nod of his head. "But come, come. You've no doubt questions about how else my kind rules, given how I heard of your interviews with Celestia and the Queen of the Changelings."
"Yes. How do you contrast your style to, say, the Princesses?"
"Celestia is more an objectivist. I'm more of a relativist. As per the teachings of the draconic philosopher Paanthurax, it's a matter of perspective for most of us." High Elder Spyrokan informed Twilight with a wave of his clawed paw. "She feels the same way about morality that many of us feel about the planet. That there are some facts that are independent of us which make our judgment solidly true or false. If I said the sky was green, my belief would be false because that independent fact that the sky is blue proves me wrong. And to her, moral facts are as much a part of the universe as any other."
"Many ponies feel that way. Moral facts are independent of us and our belief doesn't make something true if the the moral fact says otherwise. It's a fact that slavery and genocide and rape are wrong to us, and other people's beliefs on that subject are irrelevant." Twilight agreed. "It doesn't matter what they believe or think, such things are plainly wrong, as firm a fact of the universe as the sun setting in the west."
"Dragons like myself feel slightly differently." The High Elder informed her as he bowed his head. "I'm not a moral nihilist like...SOME folks at this meeting. CoughcoughChrysalis, coughcough. Oh. My apologies." He remarked. "I meant to say CHRYSALIS." He grunted as Twilight chuckled slightly. "Someone like her doesn't consider slavery to be wrong in the slightest any more than slavery is right. There are no moral facts to her. No moral truths. Whilst someone like me feels that moral facts depend upon beings like us for their existence."
Twilight pursed her lips. "What do you mean?"
"There's a battery of facts about the moral standing of the universe which depend on the standards of our culture. The fact you view slavery as wrong is relative to your current standards, but there's no absolute fact on the matter."
"I think there ARE some moral facts in the world."
"Ah, but a nihilist could turn that on you. Facts about rightness, for example, have the power to motivate us simply in virtue of us forming beliefs about them. But facts independent of our consciousness, they! THEY do not behave that way." The High Elder of the Dragons said as he raised a claw digit in the air, wagging it back and forth. There's nothing motivational associated with, say, forming a belief around the color of the sky. We create moral facts to be motivated to do or avoid something, plain and simple. So they don't exist."
"Oh, but that's so ridiculous!" Twilight said, almost throwing the notepad through the air. "Look at a fire. When we form the belief of "fire bad, do not touch" as ponies, we're motivated to avoid it, yes! But that doesn't mean the facts about the fire aren't facts about the world that are independent of us! That flame will still burn us regardless of whether we judge it or not."
"Hence why my species are more relativists. Let's take the example of Chrysalis. You think what about her? Be honest. Truthful." He inquired as he steepled his hands and Twilight sighed, shaking her head back and forth, putting a hoof to her forehead.
"I want to whack her over the head until her horn pops out for what she did." She admitted.
"And I want to, as previously stated, use her for firewood. To my kind, both of us are right. We both have different ideas of punishment, but the idea she should be punished remains." High Elder Spyrokan replied. "But it can be hard to tell what is right and what is wrong. Nobody is morally infallible. So everything is relative."
"That's your argument?" Twilight wanted to know, raising an eyebrow up. "That boils down to "Since we can't know a fact easily, then there must not be a fact to be known". I don't think people like Starswirl the Bearded said "Oh, well, researching this type of dimensional magic is so tricky and near-impossible to wrap my brain around, so it must not be real". Just because something is difficult to understand or think about doesn't make it either untrue or nonexistent!"
"True, but there's another reason why we feel the way we do. "The argument from charity"." The purple dragon informed her, taking a sip from a large goblet of wine on a nearby table as Twilight kept writing down notes in her notepad. "Every culture has different and conflicting moral norms. If there is an objective fact of right and wrong, good and bad, then this means many cultures are completely mistaken about their own moral claims. That's uncharitable at best and implausible at worst."
"So you adopt the stance that every culture, every species, every race is right in their moral judgments because their ideas of right and wrong are relative to their own norms and there's no universal set of norms by which to evaluate them all?" Twilight inquired. "But look at the scientific beliefs cultures used to hold. Many of them are just dead wrong about how things work. And saying as much isn't being unfair, it's, in a way, being kind. Because it's better to be honest about someone being wrong than to keep lying to them. And why can't the same be for moral truths? They're out there, it's just going to take a lot of effort to figure it out, and many people will get it wrong at first."
"Which is why your species is objectivist for the most part?" Spyrokan asked with a smile. "But aren't you worried about the problems that come with this? If you enforce your moral facts unwavering and unflinchingly, then your commitment to moral objectivity turns into arrogance, intolerance. Even fascism, if taken too far."
"Anything taken too far is too much." Twilight reasoned. "That's why we have our Constitution. To place reasonable limitations up. But it's also hard for our own species to be relativists when we command the literal elements of Harmony, when the spirit of Friendship itself literally shielded our kind from the Wendigos...and hey!" She added with a smile. "We're now friends with the literal spirit of Chaos and Disharmony. Those things all seem like part of a moral fabric of the universe to me."
"They may now. But in time you may change your mind." High Elder Spyrokan intoned. "Remember, nearly everyone is the hero of their own story, everyone believes their way is right and good and just to a degree. And their beliefs are sincere."
"But can't those beliefs be wrong?"
"True, but they could just as easily be right. Which is why my kind has to take a more relative stance, and be more open-minded. To a degree. Our basic goal is peace, Twilight, when you get right down to it. But we're nobody's fools." He added with a small chuckle. "And if Chrysalis tries anything against my kind, I will pick my teeth using her horned skull as my toothpick." The High Elder swore.
Twilight had no doubt he meant it, and she nodded. "Thank you for your time, High Elder."
"Thank YOU. You've been taking good care of one of my favorite grandsons." The leader of the Dragons added, Twilight's mouth slightly falling open.
"R-Really? He's one of yours?" She asked. "Wow! That's...wait. Why'd you give him up, then?"
The High Elder sighed, head hung. "It is...personal. Sometimes in life you don't have the ability to...to care properly. To be there for those you love. Sometimes you need to take extreme measures in the desperate hope that things will work out for the best. I'm just glad that for Spike, it did." He murmured. "Celestia was...very kind to me."
"Does she do that for a lot of dragons?"
"Yes. It was her idea to set up an adoption system. Things are not nearly as bad as when I was young, we do not need to set up as many as we once did for adoption. We are more responsible in how we make love."
"Does your race even have the Milk of the Poppy needed to perform...THAT?" She asked. "I know abortion is a touchy subject for many species."
"We didn't use to have any, Hearthstone's atmospheric environment didn't allow for the flower to be planted. Luckily we developed underground flora repositories. Now we are free to grow any fruits and vegetables and herbs we want." The High Elder remarked. "Especially grapes. We have fallen in love with grapes."
"Grapes are fun." Twilight admitted. "So, um...who was Spike's mother?"
Spyrokan blushed heavily. "I-er, that is, I would rather not say. It's VERY personal to me."
Twilight pursed her lips slightly. She wondered if...no, it couldn't be. Could it? Probably not. Celestia would have told her if-
"Perhaps you'd like to get to the Farmer's Market for some grapes?" She decided aloud.
"I would like that."