//------------------------------//
// Radio Debate Transcript from Tuesday, September 1st, 2015 
// Story: Chrysalis Visits The Hague 
// by Dan The Man 
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"JAKOBEIT'S COUCH" - RADIO FREE EUROPE/RADIO LIBERTY - PRE-RECORDED DEBATE 1 TRANSCRIPT from TUESDAY, September 1st, 2015 

[START OF RECORDING SESSION 2]

[BREAK ENDING, MUSIC FADING OUT, SILVIA JAKOBEIT RESUMING DEBATE]

JAKOBEIT: Beautiful! That was, by the way, a piece for strings orchestra, written and co-performed by a promising young pony musician - believe it or not. Her name is Octavia, and it's dedicated to her hometown - it's called the Canterlot Fugue. From the otherworldy vibe alone, you might have already guessed this piece of classical music couldn't have been composed by a human. I think this ties in very well with our current topic of discussion. 
For everyone who has tuned in just now, we are discussing the upcoming trial of the Queen Chrysalis, the self-styled leader of the Equestrian Changelings minority, at the International Criminal Court in The Hague, a decidedly human institution. This decision caused a lot of political fallout on both sides of the Pacific. Why? Well, to delve into this affair a little further, I have invited two experts to argue to what extent this is a justified step. 
On one end of the couch I have Lauren Mephisto - prize-winning novelist and essayist, author of the book "The Magic of Friendship", a report on the equine lifestyle and psyche - who argues this is a good thing to do. 
On the other end, I have Alexander Estermann - a lawyer at the ICC who apparently will soon be stepping up as the defence counsel to Queen Chrysalis - who respectfully disagrees. Before the break, we heard both of you briefly reiterating your standpoints, but now I turn my attention to Lauren for an in-depth look. Lauren, why take this equine matter to a human court?

MEPHISTO: Thank you, Silvia. First of all, implying that the ICC is a human court, is the wrong way to approach the matter.

ESTERMANN: But it's true.

JAKOBEIT: Alexander, I'll turn to you in a minute. Please give Lauren this moment.

MEPHISTO: As I said, that's drawing a narrow-minded conclusion. First and foremost, the ICC is an international court, designed to operate beyond national boundaries. It's a court for the world, by the world. But nobody ever said that it'd be restricted to humans per se. Not in 2002, and not in 2015. 
Of course, until barely a year ago, the issue was moot. Now however, the court truly has to step up to its name as an international court, unimpeded by race or creed. Or species.

JAKOBEIT: So you're saying the court was made for everyone? Man and mouse alike?

MEPHISTO: For anyone of certain intelligence, I mean. All creatures who can form states and govern them. Sapient beings. Nowadays, that simply isn't exclusive to humanity anymore. Equestrian ponies, Equestrian mules, Equestrian Gryphons all share this level of intelligence. They have states, they have governments. 
It would be a big mistake to ignore them.

JAKOBEIT: I can already see Alexander is aching to put his oar in. Please, what problem is there with Lauren's thesis?

ESTERMANN: Ms Jakobeit, Ms Mephisto. I cannot speak for the intelligence of ponies or gryphons. I haven't met any personally, so I won't even start making any assumptions. But it is a fact that us and them are living, essentially, in different worlds. One of apples and one of pears. You can't simply expect ponies to be enthusiastic for any old human regulation like that.

MEPHISTO: Well, Alex, I have met a lot ponies already, and almost all of them were very enthusiastic about what the court is fighting for, and what it's trying to achieve.

ESTERMANN: That's not the issue. I'm saying that the laws themselves are incompatible. In more than one way. The Rome Statute was authored with humans in mind. And even if it hadn't been, ponies might still have extremely diverging concepts of war and peace and crime of aggression and genocide...

MEPHISTO: Some things are universal. Equestrians had their share of war, as your client's trial is going to show.

ESTERMANN: Don't assume anything. As of now, there isn't even enough evidence to bring her before an international court in the first place.

MEPHISTO: Yeah, not yet! You're delving into your lawyer role pretty quickly.

ESTERMANN: That tends to happen if it's your job.

JAKOBEIT: Now, now. Alexander, you're basically saying that the ponies do not fall into the categories that the court addresses. That does bring up an interesting point. Tell me, Lauren, what would be the ponies' gain? Why do they care about, much less want to, be part of a human-based justice system?

MEPHISTO: It mostly has to do with the usual feelings of uncertainty and skepsis. While we might be a little afraid of Equestria because we don't fully understand their culture and society, you must remember the Equestrians are just as scared of us. We may not comprehend the cutie mark, the magic artefacts and the cloud cities, but they don't comprehend the telephone, the lightbulb and the combustion engine. To them, we are scary aliens that outnumber them almost a thousand to one. 
That's why both sides are frantically looking for common ground to cover. To appeal to each other. To invite the other's trust. That involves topics like ethics and morality and principles just as much as technology or politics. 'Thou shalt not kill', for instance, is a viable attitude that we all can agree a hundred percent on. Freedom, equality, diversity are all factors that are important to most of us.

ESTERMANN: Do you know that for a fact?

MEPHISTO: Yes. Because of that, many ponies - their leaders included - see the fact that they and we formally agree on something - like basic international law or human rights - as a token of friendship and respect. That gives them strength and certainty, and shows them that we're ready for teamwork.  As long as that spirit persists, they'll be happy to partake in our sense of justice.
Such frantic friend-finding may look a little silly at the moment, but consider the alternative happening; Equestria finding nothing but rejection and incomprehension in our world - they'd fold in and cut all ties to the human countries, preferring to dwell an isolated life in constant fear and mistrust of us. We don't want them to end up as some magical, equine, second North Korea. We know they're looking for somebody to embrace with open hooves, and we shouldn't slam the door in their faces.

JAKOBEIT: I see. So it's just all of us not trying to make the other side feel insecure? It's good we cleared that point up, since it has been causing a lot of confusion.

ESTERMANN: Don't get me wrong, my heart bleeds for them. But how does this explain why they want to entrust their criminals to us?

MEPHISTO: It's supposed to be another sign of trust, Alex - they want assurance that we wouldn't judge Queen Chrysalis any differently than they would. That serves to set another common goal for us. 
Plus, Chrysalis might not have been the first or last leader to commit such atrocities against Equestria. Maybe it's meant to send a message to those other ones, as to say: "Don't try what she tried! You will now be held accountable for what you do. The humans got our back covered on this one."

ESTERMANN: Oh how very droll. You say that they're exploiting this trial for political capital?

MEPHISTO: Let's be honest. Who doesn't?

ESTERMANN: Oh well, whatever. My beef here is that it's fundamentally illegal. Whatever Queen Chrysalis did, doesn't fall into the court's purview. Of course, Equestria signed and ratified the Rome Statute, which moved them into the court's jurisdiction. But that also means that the court can only look at any breaches of the Statutes from that day forward! Not the day before, and not the month before. 
That's called the Grandfather Clause. You cannot indict any state of infringing something that wasn't a law at the time. No law means no crime. Yet we also know for a fact that all of Queen Chrysalis' alleged misdeeds lie more than two years in the past. That's the equivalent of ratifying Hungary, then go and hold them accountable for what Attila the Hun did. It has the same logic behind it.

MEPHISTO: Under normal circumstances, I'd agree. I'm not a lawyer, but even I know what the Grandfather Clause is.

ESTERMANN: Thank you.

MEPHISTO: But you're apparently forgetting it isn't just the ICC we're talking about. Let me tell you a little story.

ESTERMANN: Oh God, here we go.

JAKOBEIT: Lauren, will this story be relevant to your point?

MEPHISTO: Absolutely. It's the 16th year of what is now known as the Classical Era in Equestria. That's a long time ago in human terms, at least a thousand earth years. It has probably been much longer for Equestria. In that year, nine rulers from all over the Equestrian continent - such as from the Unicorn Kingdom, the Pegasus Empire, the Earth Pony Commonwealth, the Gryphon Provinces, and the Donkey and Mule Duchies, among others - convened in an Earth Pony manor house to conduct a grand summit. There, in the midst of a period of heavy political strive, famine and infighting, they penned a charter that should ensure peace and goodwill for the warring realms for the future. They dubbed it the "Code of Harmony".

ESTERMANN: Okay. So?

MEPHISTO: This Code of Harmony issued rules and regulations for all the leaders to obey. It forbade aggressive attacks on other tribes' lands. It forbade slavery. It forbade pillaging. It forbade laying a hoof or claw on civilians. Any lord or lady who would breach the charter would be judged by an assembly called the "Council of Harmony", staffed by elected scholars from the other nations, then punished. 
Doesn't that ring a bell, Mr Alex?

ESTERMANN: Yes, and yet it's entirely irrelevant. You see, I did my homework too, Ms Mephisto. This so-called 'Code of Harmony' - ignoring the ridiculous age factor - apparently didn't amount to a hill of beans in that region's history. There is no other mention that such laws were ever enforced by any of the supposed signing polities. A judge panel to trial such offenders never convened. 
The event and the legislation it spawned must have been ignored, shunned, and forgotten as quickly as they were thought up - and all that without leaving the hint of an impression on the world. So who knows? It might just as well never have happened.

MEPHISTO: I do know. And you're wrong. Two months ago, I was invited to the newly inaugurated Equestrian Embassy Center in Washington DC with a group of Literature students from Philadelphia University, to help and translate old Equestrian scripture into English. There, I saw the original copy of the charter, with my own two eyes. Miraculously enough, every signature, crest and seal is still identifiable as that of the lords and ladies of a millenium ago, as were most of the laws. Equestrian hippologists from the University of Canterlot confirmed the authenticity, by the way.

ESTERMANN: Hippologists? Oh please, dear God...

MEPHISTO: Concerning the Code of Harmony, dear Alex - it's a magnificent piece of writing. As a person who translated the entire thing, I can say with absolute certainty that the parallels between that code and our Rome Statute are uncanny. Not just the contents, which are more than just identical, but also the conclusions they draw.

ESTERMANN: I still don't see how a thousand-year old set of laws is supposed to set any standards nowadays.

MEPHISTO: Because I have found no evidence that these laws have ever been repealed by any of the states that drafted them. The Unicorn, Earth Pony and Pegasus states later unified to create what we today know as the modern Equestrian Princedom, uniting their three signatures under one. The Gryphon Provinces of yesteryear also still exist, in form of the Gryphon Union. The Donkey and Mule Duchies on the other hand, haven't changed at all. And this means that, with every surviving signature, these laws have prevailed in the background for many centuries. As a matter of fact, they exist to this very day. Just because they weren't enforced in an eternity, it doesn't necessarily make them invalid.

ESTERMANN: If you are so sure, Ms Mephisto, then can you point me to the signature of the Changeling Kingdom's ancestors on that paper? After all, there must be a reason why their Queen should care about it.

MEPHISTO: No. There were no Changeling signatures.

ESTERMANN: Ah yes, I see.

MEPHISTO: But it doesn't matter either. The region inhabited by the Changelings was, at the time of signature, a territory belonging to the Pegasus Empire, later to be incorporated into Equestria. The changelings technically are Equestrian subjects, just like they were back then.

ESTERMANN: ********. The Changeling Kingdom is an entirely separate country altogether.

JAKOBEIT: Sorry, Alexander, could you say that again without the swearing? We have a no-swearing policy and we might have to censor you otherwise.

ESTERMANN: What? Alright, alright. For ***** sake.

JAKO BEIT: And we'll have to censor that too.

ESTERMANN: Anyway, Ms Mephisto; of course the Changelings have their own state. It's called the Changeling Kingdom for a damn good reason.

MEPHISTO: Last time I checked, the region was formally called Northern Equestria. And it still is Equestrian.

ESTERMANN: Who says so? Equestria? 

MEPHISTO: Yes. But the thing is: Equestria has a seat in the UN, and the Changeling Kingdom doesn't. Wouldn't you agree that Equestria's claim has a certain priority?

ESTERMANN: What else are they supposed to be, then? Some kind of autonomous region, surely?

MEPHISTO: Equestria says no. They just said it's [PAUSE] "untamed", though still within their own borders. According to them, Changelings are merely occupying wide stretches of Northern Equestria.

ESTERMANN: Sounds a lot like an autonomous region to me.

MEPHISTO: If they are, then surely one of a thousand-and-one asterisks. The fact of the matter is an ancient to-and-fro between Ponies and Changelings, a conflict which has raged on for a couple of centuries. And it probably was a catalyst for many of the wars these two groups fought. But as it stands now, everyone recognises Equestria, and no one recognises the Changeling Kingdom.

ESTERMANN: But that makes the Changelings at least a civil war party. Also, you can't be telling me that the Changeling Kingdom is the only country on the Equestrian isle that the UN hasn't yet formally recognised.

MEPHISTO: And doesn't that just make her the most ideally accused for the ICC?

ESTERMANN: What? No. Here you go again with the ICC. You do realise that we can't accuse her on the basis of some millenium-old piece of foreign legislation, right?

JAKOBEIT: Alex, one moment. Let me stop you there. Haven't you heard?

ESTERMANN: What?

JAKOBEIT: The ICC is currently conferring in Fillydelphia. And they're considering incorporating the Code and Council of Harmony into its structure.

ESTERMANN: What? You're joking.

JAKOBEIT: No no. According to Reuters, the two organisations claim to have a basis so similar that it would make sense to merge them. 

MEPHISTO: And many of the descendants of the old signing parties agree.

ESTERMANN: That's idiotic. I mean, this Code of Harmony wasn't made for humanity. How can it even be considered a valid equivalent?

JAKOBEIT: As Lauren said earlier, some things just are universal. And in my opinion, if it was designed to be valid for Ponies and Gryphons and Donkeys and Pegasi and Unicorns and Changelings and whatnot - then why not humanity, Alexander?

MEPHISTO: I read the Code and the Rome Statute back-to-back, and it's literally a matter of changing the order of the articles, reshuffling the classifications, and adjusting the punitive measures.

ESTERMANN: What, even with the magic and stuff that is probably included in there?

MEPHISTO: Yes, and that's a good thing. That means that the ICC won't have to update the Rome Statute to include these things separately later. It will unify the most important points applying to humanity with the most important points applying to the Equestrian creatures. And the best thing is: It will automatically extend the ICC's jurisdiction on Equestria and her neighbouring nations by at least several centuries backwards.

ESTERMANN: This is ridiculous. It will never pass.

MEPHISTO: I foresee that the merger will happen. Mark my words. If the shoe fits, they should wear it.

ESTERMANN: Well, I foresee that they will have thrown out this shoe by the end of the week. Preposterous, that's what it is.

JAKOBEIT: And I foresee the looming end of our airtime. Alex, Lauren, I thank you both a lot for joining me on the couch today. Our debate has been immensely fierce, and I really enjoyed listening to you two going at it. Now, Lauren, you are aware that if this merger should fail, you'll be forced to eat crow. You must now promise to me that you will write another essay about it if you get it wrong.

MEPHISTO: Yes, M'am. Who knows, maybe I'll be ashamed enough to make a whole mini-series.

JAKOBEIT: I'll look forward to it. And if you turn out to be wrong, Alexander, you will have to defend Queen Chrysalis tooth and nail in court. You do realise that?

ESTERMANN: Looks like it. But I can assure you, Ms Jakobeit, it won't come this far. The ICC is a sensible institution that knows what's appropriate to judge and not to judge. Should they ever adopt a piece of Equestrian law, I'll eat my hat. 

MEPHISTO: A real shame. I liked your hat.

JAKOBEIT: Ladies and gentlemen - fillies and gentlecolts; this was the twentieth edition of Jakobeit's Couch. I hope you'll also tune in next week, same day, same hour, when we continue with our Equestrian theme month with the topic: Poison Joke - Harmless Humour or Russian Roulette? 
Until then, take care and have a pleasant evening. My name is Sylvia Jakobeit, and this show was recorded earlier today, from Prague, on behalf of RL/RFE.

[END OF RECORDING SESSION 2]