Site Post » Changes to rating system · 8:16pm Feb 16th, 2012
Chances are if you're reading this, you're either happy with the new like/dislike system or raging furiously about how I've ruined everything good about the site while trying to find my address to send me pitchforks in the mail. So, I thought I'd explain things a little bit, and show you my justifications for the redesign.
First of all, how does the new system work? Well it's pretty simple, it's basically the same as Youtube/Reddit. You now can only like or dislike a story without any of the in betweens. But knighty! I want to vote stories at 4.5! :(:( Well that's great, and in an ideal world that would work. But there's many reasons it DOESN'T work at all online.
1. A 3.5 to one person is a 4.5 to another
2. (Literally) 70%+ of ratings on Fimfiction are 5 stars.
What this means is that your genuine and hard thought out 4.5 vote is utterly meaningless in the grand scheme of things. By limiting it to "like" and "dislike", everyone can vote on those with much clearer discretion that a 10 point system, and showing them numerically at all time helps prevent thinks like vote bombing since it's not as if those likes magically disappear like your rating does in a star system. If you like a story, you like it. If you disliked it, you dislike it. Under the hood, the calculations for the best stories are largely the same so if you go to view the top stories you'll basically see exactly the same as you did before.
As far as the conversion goes, all 2.5+ ratings were converted to thumbs up, and the rest are thumbs down.
Hope this cleared things up for people.
Now feel free to unleash your unrelenting rage upon me.
edit: And since I forgot to thank him in the 5k stories post, thanks so much to Apo for being a great server admin and helping me out loads with the backend as well as hosting the site!
I'm ok with this.
BUT KNIGHTY I LIKED IT THE WAY IT WAS.
quit predicting my responses.
I don't care for a thumbs up/down thing because it can lead to abuse, unless we can see who thumbs upped/down.
actually, while it may have been impossible, i would've liked to see how many ratings each rating got.
Like, a story with 4.8 stars and 300 ratings, i wanted to see how many 5s/4.5s/4s/etc.
Well, it's complicated. The system is yet to display its (in)convenience so we cannot judge it now.
But have you thought about people who are just in a bad mood, putting dislikes to all stories they can find?
A deeper rating system would be better - a system, which will take into consideration all sides of a story: plot, character development etc.
But hey, it's Fimfiction! An improvement, nevertheless.
I still want you to do 3.0 and above -> good and 2.5 and lower -> bad. :P
I like this... I can actually see what were clearly bombing attempts in some of my stories... cool!
I want there to be little Karma/Discentia icons for this now o.O
"If you like a story, you like it. If you disliked it, you dislike it. "
actually, this is something that i have a problem with, because it doesn't really hold true. I've read plenty of stories here that I didn't dislike, but i certainly didn't think that I liked. to me, something like a 2.5 or 3 meant that I thought your story was good, but not anything too amazing. It also didn't mean i liked your story, nor did it mean i disliked your story. it could come from an entire variety of reasons, that had little to no bearing on how much i liked the story, as an idea or concept, but other things like grammar/characterization/etc.
Honestly I prefer it to the starts it keeps things more simple and like you said one person's 4.5 is 3.5 to someone else so you could never truly get a full rating for a story.
The only thing i do have against it is the look of it. I don't know something about it just does not fit in with the theme of the site
But that's just my opinion.
I understand the logic behind it, but this will never sit well with me. To reduce everything to binary response is nothing short of insulting.
Still, you've thought this through, and clearly don't care to hear grievances, so I'll just sit here and stew silently in my new frustration.
15339
so now you can see where the bombs were coming from when you see like 20 thumbs up and a single thumbs down?
actually, i ran the math this morning for EQD rating, and a story with 20 solid 5 stars and one 1 star automatically lowered/lowers it to a 4.8. i did this math in calculator.
such a drop in rating came from one rotten apple, which reflects poorly. add a second one star, and it drops to 4.6. that's 20 5 stars and two 1 stars. it does not accurately reflect the quality of a story.
15336
Since when couldn't people vote 0.5 on a ton of stories if they felt like it? The system is less abusable for the reasons I described in the post.
I don't like it. I don't even understand how much it would rate as. *Loads shotgun* I want an option to change it back! I mean...um...if that's okay with you.
15344
People who care enough about your story to give thought about whether it's 3.5 stars or 4.0 stars will be commenting to tell you anyway.
15348
i disagree. I've read stories I thought were 3.5/4.5 material, but i didn't comment. mostly cause i don't want to devolve into leaving standards "I like it" comment. actually, if it's a new story, by an inexperienced author, i'll do it, because they need a little prop here and there. now, I'm not one for extreme criticism, mostly cause i don't feel i'm the right person for the job, but i'll offer advice on commas and grammar if needed.
But ponies don't have thumbs...
Would it be feasible to add the story's rating next to the views/word count/etc. on the update lists and such? Or somewhere meaningful. It'd be nice to remove the clicking and loading only to find the story I was interested in has universally poor reviews - or to change my mind about a story that may catch my interest.
15345 that's my story and I'm sticking to it. At least for The Chronicles.
And I mean 297 likes and 7 downs up to today... call me an egomaniac or whatever, but there's no way someone that actually read that story gave it less than 2.5 in good conscience. After today? Who knows? I'll probably get more dislikes, and I won't know whether they are bombs or not, but for now... yeah.
15351
But my point is that suggesting it's "insulting" to only be able to receive a like or dislike doesn't make much sense if people aren't going to care enough to comment anyway.
15352
Thumbs! how was this overlooked!
I never considered the problems with a star system, but the change makes sense to me after reading your post.
There are two sides to this coin...
In theory. I liked the old system, because like you said, it allowed me to rate based on a scale. What if I really really liked a fiction? Then I could rate a 5. What if I only KINDA liked it? then a 4, and so on. It allowed must more fluidity in it, and because it was a single scale, it allowed a more "at a glance" look at how people would like it (rated a 4.5 overall for example).
HOWEVER!
In practice, lets face it, people rate in a trough graph system. The only times most people rate the story is when they really like it (a 5), or really dislike it (a 0), so it ends up basically being a like/dislike system. I personally have never rated between a 2-4, so I know its true to me.
One thing I would like a change to is to make it like youtube's like/dislike bar, where both the likes and dislikes are on the same bar together, allowing you to better see the ratio. Just a thought
Uhhhh!!!
Works for me, I was losing sleep over the Idea at being 4 and half stars, .. Just half a star!!! It was maddening!
Ohh umm yeas so any way I give the thumbs up.
15360
yes you can. just say it in the comments. if you still feel the need to rate based on the old system just leave a comment saying 5/5 or 4/5 or whatever. Maybe leave a justification or two. or do what Dash Is Best Pony does and leave giant walls of text.
Ultimately, this is reflective of the difficulty of standardizing a numeric rating system for opinion. As someone who spent a couple years in grad school studying political communication, I could go on and on about how nonsensical it is to reduce opinions to numbers...and how frustrating it is to be given huge statistics packages to churn through for your professors anyways.
I am extremely supportive of this decision, for a number of reasons. First of all: like/dislike is every easy for anyone to decide, so it removes an element of end-user confusion-- what's the difference between 4.5 and 5, really? It's different for everyone. Further, as knighty pointed out, people are inclined to use numeric systems in this fashion anyways (the 1-10 response set, it's called, when you answer everything on an attitude survey with either 1 or 10-- very annoying, when I'm trying to study subtle gradations of opinion). And of course, if you find you lack on opinion, it's more explicit that you should just not vote instead of screwing around thinking about whether a 2.5 star really represents your attitude or not.
And speaking as an *ahem* somewhat popular author, at this point, I could get a hundred "1" votes and it wouldn't really matter, even if the person in question was completely justified in their opinion. Comments are always more useful to authors, and tell me more about what someone does or does not like than a rating of any kind ever did. Pissing and moaning about the top fics being 4.8 vs. 4.9...well, that was boring and pointless...but long discussions about their quality and content, that I can peruse as an interested reader? I mean, look at the huge thread for "The Games We Play", that was awesome (if really, really dickish, from time to time)! And way more useful to me, as a potential reader, than some numbers. I can immediately see that a huge amount of people are engaged and interested.
My concerns about the ratings system overall in general pertain to how they decide what goes in the "featured" box, since I am always suspicious of automated systems because they can be gamed by sufficiently clever and organized individuals. But I've also been on the receiving end of its graces, so perhaps I shouldn't complain too much.
tl;dr it's your site knighty, you do what you want~<3
15358 What I would like is for readers that actually dislike a story to say why they do.
And I don't even mean a freaking wall of text telling me in minute detail why, but... in the old system I encountered enough ponies that would rate even really well written stories (End of Ponies, Ponies Make War) a 0 Star because they didn't like the fact that they're dark/sad 
Anyway, Knighty! How about a Zecora smiley?!
Come on, you know you want to!
I prefer a 5 star rating system, but a like/dislike system ain't bad either.
At least it allows you to dislike things unlike Facebook and a few others...
I vote for a "meh" button. :3
No seriously, is a "meh" button maybe a good idea? Sometimes a story isn't good or bad, but you still would like to voice that. At least it makes the system a little less binary without destroying the purpose of it.
15337
So be it!
15372 I second this motion!
15366
Some really good points you made there. I like this update too. While I do believe that the 2.5/3.0 for me is sort of neutral, I doubt many people use those ratings at all. A thumbs up/down wouldn't make too much of a difference. Much easier to make a decision anyway. As you mentioned, there is no specific criteria which separates a 4.5 from a 5.0. I myself have had trouble deciding on what to rate a fic, so I think this change is good.
I also agree with your point on the comments. I don't get a ton of feedback here, but I appreciate my comments a ton more than my ratings.
I understand your logic and I'm glad it gives a more honest rating of your fics (I had a perfect rating on one of my fics until some biased...meanie ruined it by voting half a star purely because it was grimdark
).
However, there's no wiggle room, no grey area that dominates most of the stories here. I propose a third option perhaps? A sort of 'meh, it was okay' alternative. That way we never have to resort the hair-tearing thought process of "The plot was good...but the dialogue was messy. But it had some good character development...but they keep writing 'their' instead of 'they're'".
Just a thought.
Conflicted. Binary responses are indeed easier (I end up rating everything around 3.5 - 5 anyway), but it's hard for me to consider a "threshold" of what I consider like, and what I consider dislike. The only time I dislike something (on Youtube, etc) is if it's a TERRIBLE video/post. Nobody's fanfic (at least that I read so far) has ever been "terrible" so I'm bound to just like everything... I feel kind of like it's insulting to leave a dislike in any case, whether that threshold be a 2 or a 3.5...
I don't really mind it, I don't think it's that much of a drastic change. I think it might make rating stories a bit easier.
15372 Dammit, just when I publish my comment and refresh the page I see you're comment. I am embarassment
15376
Lol, I thought that up 5 minutes before you XP
15372
15379
And just when I replied to that...
At least we share the awkwardness now :3
15382 Reminds me of the time I came up with the idea for the movie 'Titanic'
Didn't copyright it.
Lost millions.
15384
Dammit, now I like you :3
The new rating system is not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. I think the biggest problem with the old system is that most people were simply trying to nudge the average. "I sorta like this story, so I'll give it five stars, and that'll nudge the average a hair upward."
The new system better reflects the way most of us were actually using the old one.
Eh, I'll give it a shot.
15337 Ohhhhhh
I'm cool with this system now
People who always vote 5/5: YOU'RE TO BLAME!
I would say this can be quite discouraging for alot of new writers...
15346 Brace yourselves FIMFiction,
The "<insert number of dislikes> bronies didn't like this story" comments are coming.
Here's an idea:
Make a critique system like they have on DeviantArt so writers that want genuine feedback have the option to allow readers to give in-depth, constructive criticism (like with star rating systems for specific categories such as Tone, Grammar, Imagery, Overall Conveyance, etc.). With that, the author can take that feedback and use it to improve his writing skills so he/she may be able to produce higher-quality literature in the future.
I don't like it. It takes away a lot of freedom I had in judging a story.
Often I would like a story, but it wouldn't be good enough that I would give it a flat 5. 3, 4, 4.5, all possible. Sure, the system had its flaws and was subjective, but it offered a choice. Now I either like a story, or I don't. Chances are, if I'm still reading at that point, I like it anyway.
Such a system makes sense on reddit, since there is a huge userbase on that site and comments often don't warrant any further rating than good/bad. But fiction is far more complex than that, and I believe the rating choices should reflect that.
I think we should keep both, and maybe not have the stars do anything in the Top Fics rating or any other background mechanical stuff they used too, so they only really effect the human element. Mainly because I use the stars to let me know if something that may have an interesting premise is actually really bad. But, hay, like device heretic said, it's your site, you do as you feel is best.
I really like the idea of adding a "meh" button and a critique (multiple areas) feature.
I, as a semi-new author to this site who has no say in any matter and isn't really paid attention to anyway (
), don't mind this new system.
I can definitely see why people won't appreciate it; getting rid of the stars is kind of a strange concept for those who have been voting in terms of that scale. Having something that runs more from 1 to 10 - or .5 to 5 in this case - helps give a clearer idea of what an audience's specific impression of a story has been overall; however, that's also all based on a relative interpretation of what is 4-star or 5-star. Likes and dislikes tend to leave polar choices, which may be painful for those who once would have received 2.5-star ratings; now they'll just see dislikes, which essentially translate to 0. However, on the other hand, 3-star and up is a like, so it sort of balances out.
I also feel that with this system there might be a greater tendency to wait and rate rather than skim and give some random estimate of what star rating seemed appropriate for the two paragraphs someone read. For those who aren't sure about how they feel, hopefully there's more of a push in this system to just not vote (which in fact should not fall underneath a "like" or "dislike" category, as opposed to just putting a "3" for "I dunno lol"). Who knows, though; I could be completely wrong.
Lastly, it's been said before, but is worth repeating: comments matter more than stars, anyway... unless they're just threads of people talking to one another about unrelated stuff (which I've seen in others' stories). On that note, when will anonymous people be able to comment again? Or is that getting scratched for good?
In any case, knighty, keep doing what you're doing. I'm grateful to have an opportunity like this to share my stories online, and that is that.
Silly comment-makers.
Ponies don't have thumbs.
Anyway, I'm okay either way.
15405
Yup, that's the right direction I think. I would even go so far to add a "good, but not perfect" option, for a total of 4 (instead of the original 9). Keep the bars in favor of simply showing the average and we should be golden.
15400
That sounds excellent, too! A general feedback option, followed by an optional in-depth feedback for different aspects of a story would be really neat and also helpful for the authors, me thinks.