You either believe in freedom of expression or you don't

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[evan555alpha]

WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY

[Officer Hotpants]

5314028
Sometimes I wonder...

[GivingSpider]

I firmly belief in Freedom of Expression, and that words are not inherently offencive; context is where controversy happens.

And what society needs isn't less conversation about context that people find offensive, but more conversation about context that people find offensive.

If I started demanding that things offensive to me be censored and/or removed then I'd be no better than, say for example, Christian Fundamentalists who demand that everything offensive to them (such as queer people existing, non-Christian faiths existing, and in some cases the idea of a non-flat Earth) or trolls who complain just for attention and/or just to stir shit.

[Officer Hotpants]

5315058
That's my big thing. Nobody wants to zoom out from the big, flashing sign reading "nazis" to look at where they're actually headed. They're "fighting" "nazis" by dropping a metaphorical nuke on them. Yeah. Great. You got 'em. And everyone else for miles around. And now you get to deal with the fallout and the effects of the fallout for years to come while you try to rebuild.

And that's not even getting into the victim cosplay of people whose parents weren't even born until well after the war. No. Your great grandfather or granduncle that you never met dying in the war or the camps 50+ years before you were born does not make you a victim of the nazis. If the rest is depressing, that shit's just disgusting.

[GivingSpider]

5315082
I do not have adequate mastery in the fields of vocabulary or creativity, to appropriately express how much I agree with you, though the application of what is available through the utilization of the English lexicon.

[Latrans]

I suppose I dont believe in it. I would very much like to, but i cant. I have seen too many who use "context" as a shield both to broadcast morally reprehensible ideas to see who responds and to help normalize those ideas. This lends itself to create amazingly toxic environments. To prevent that you occasionally have to say "that idea is toxic to our group and we dont want it here". Karl Popper wrote a whole thing on this "paradox of tolerance" and many users have explored the idea much more eloquently than I. I can link them if you are curious.

Unfortunately this means you will sometimes catch innocent people in the middle. And if you (general 'you' not OP specifically) find yourself to be one of those innocents perhaps consider who the real enemy is: the ones removing the toxic expression, or those who made it toxic to begin with.

As far as "Nazis" go, most people are using the term as a catch-all for anyone who holds racist/fascist/supremacist/etc. views regardless of if that party is actually part of a Nazi group. Trying to take issue with that is to intentionally ignore the intended message.

This all ties together with the victims. Take, for example, the federal agents abducting people off the streets in Portland. Or the truly staggering number of police forces staffed almost (if not entirely) by white supremacists. Look at the continued persecution of the LGBT communities. The victims have real, personal experience being at the wrong end of an ideology. An ideology that does not exist in a vacuum or just spontaneously come into existence. Just because someone never fought the Third Reich doesnt mean they haven't seen the ugly face of Nazi ideals.

[Officer Hotpants]

5322291

I suppose I dont believe in it. I would very much like to, but i cant. I have seen too many who use "context" as a shield both to broadcast morally reprehensible ideas to see who responds and to help normalize those ideas.

And the problem with that is? I don't at all like the people calling for my censorship as I find a lot of ideas, including the very concept of censorship, reprehensible in the extreme but I would never demand that they be silenced by authority. Nor is it my or anyone else's place to monitor other people's beliefs for wrongthink and artificially burn it out.

This lends itself to create amazingly toxic environments. To prevent that you occasionally have to say "that idea is toxic to our group and we dont want it here". Karl Popper wrote a whole thing on this "paradox of tolerance" and many users have explored the idea much more eloquently than I. I can link them if you are curious.

Yeah, I'm familiar with Popper's little paradox. It doesn't impress me. It's nothing more than an excuse to tell himself and his fellows that it's different when their people do the very things that they claim to be opposed to.

Unfortunately this means you will sometimes catch innocent people in the middle. And if you (general 'you' not OP specifically) find yourself to be one of those innocents perhaps consider who the real enemy is: the ones removing the toxic expression, or those who made it toxic to begin with.

That's easy. It's the first group. The second group didn't do anything to me and they weren't forcing the first group's hand no matter how much the first group may pretend otherwise.

As far as "Nazis" go, most people are using the term as a catch-all for anyone who holds racist/fascist/supremacist/etc. views regardless of if that party is actually part of a Nazi group. Trying to take issue with that is to intentionally ignore the intended message.

Taking issue with being purposefully mislabeled in an attempt to give me the boot is "ignoring the intended message"? And what exactly is the intended message, anyway? And why should I even care about the allegedly intended message of a bunch of brazen liars with an ends-justify-the-means approach to societal change? We've seen plenty of groups with that approach, you know. In fact I can think of one in particular that you take issue with.

This all ties together with the victims. Take, for example, the federal agents abducting people off the streets in Portland.

You mean those abductions that I'm told are a violation of people's freedom of expression & assembly, and freedom from unreasonable seizure? I thought that was okay as long as we did it to the people we find morally inferior to ourselves. And looking at the burned-out cities and ruined streets they've left in their wake, I certainly feel morally superior to them. Are you suggesting that I should extend to them the same consideration I'd extend to everyone else?

Or the truly staggering number of police forces staffed almost (if not entirely) by white supremacists.

And here we find more of those brazen lies I spoke of. Not only could you not know that short of finding some secret KKK cop roster, but the fact that these "white supremacist" cops typically have a history of abusing their authority over everyone suggests that they're all-purpose assholes rather than the laser targeted variety.

Look at the continued persecution of the LGBT communities.

What "continued persecution"? Society seems pretty damned accepting of us these days.

The victims have real, personal experience being at the wrong end of an ideology.

As do we all. Right now, for example.

An ideology that does not exist in a vacuum or just spontaneously come into existence.

Indeed it does not. Nor does any. They requires an array of social pressures. Economic, political, developmental, racial, religious, etc. I'm pretty sure "a couple people wrote about it in their jerkoff fanfiction for a cartoon" isn't spawning any new social movements, though.

Just because someone never fought the Third Reich doesnt mean they haven't seen the ugly face of Nazi ideals.

Yeah. Nazi ideals like burning texts incompatible with their beliefs, expelling designated "enemies" and "inferiors" from their domain, restricting speech espousing unapproved idea or critical of their movement & punishing naysayers, responding to non-violent provocation or perceived provocation with violent reprisal...

[Latecomer]

Or you believe it is a non-absolute good, and reject such ridiculous simplifications.

[Officer Hotpants]

5333050
Living up to your name as ever.

[Latecomer]

5333060
I wondered if that avatar meant what I thought it did - I was unfortunately correct.

[Officer Hotpants]

5333113
That I'm a cutely blushing little horse?

[Latecomer]

5333241
If only that was all.

[Officer Hotpants]

5333261
I let you in on a secret. I'm not actually a cute little horse.

[Latecomer]

5333269
And I'm sure you're not a Nazi either - yet still.

[Raven Blackwood]

I do believe in freedom of expression. Sad thing about it is how messed it has gotten on this site ever since that Atlantic article screwed up everything. Especially with how the mods disabled comments on literally any story that has Aryanne in it. I don't see how a fictional pony is supposed to cause violence.

No telling when the new rules will be put in that may cause another backlash that's going to happen in the future.

[Officer Hotpants]

5346364
We'll see. I don't want to leave Fimfiction after seven years but if they pull a Derpibooru and go for a no-discussion hard nosedive into an early grave, too, then I'll absolutely look for someplace else.

[Raven Blackwood]

5346422
Where would we go if that does happen? I don't know of any other similar MLP sites that look somewhat like FimFic when it comes to submitting stories.

[Officer Hotpants]

5346661
I use this place as much for socializing as reading. If I leave, it'll simply be to another socialization site. Where, I don't know.