On Derpibooru Drama · 7:26am Jul 3rd, 2020
IT IS OBVIOUS THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT READING WHAT I WROTE.
As I expanded in a comment under the blog, while I was a mod at derpi, we banned racists and the like whenever they made their views known, and that policy did not change when I left. The art posted on the site did not generally fall under that banner because it was pretty obviously satirical or fetishistic in nature; you're about as likely to get people to adopt the cause of racial purity with Aryanne flashing her genitals as you are to get pulled into the nazi sphere by Ilsa, She-Wolf of the SS or turned into a white nationalist by Black Gestapo. Or Illinois Nazis.
God I hate those guys...
By its very nature, fetishism is ridiculous and niche. It has the opposite effect to the one being claimed by the current circlejerk around what constitutes good taste in art. And yes, I did compare this to other examples of destruction of art as a microcosmic version of the same broad urge to purify unacceptable depictions. I am comparing the demand to destroy or otherwise sanitise portrayals of extreme fetishes to other demands to destroy or otherwise sanitise portrayals of imagery deemed socially unacceptable by the mob.
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Original post follows.
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Reposted from discussions there, earlier in the mad rush to complain:
So I've spent a few days thinking about this (prompted partly by someone deciding I'm a racist for… agreeing with the premise that Nazis Are Bad, but in the wrong way or something).
I sad a few pages back that I understand the reasoning (or what I assume is the reasoning) behind the change.
But I also said I don't agree with the change.
Lets establish a few things first. Despite what certain users here, prone to overuse of tildes and smarmy emoticons, may believe, I am not a racist, nor a nazi, nor anything else. A lot of my more visible actions when I was a mod involved telling people to shut up and filter content they didn't like. Those people fell into two broad, barely-intersecting groups: the ones complaining about racism and "political" content, and the ones complaining about LGB and "political" content. I spent a lot of time dealing with and banning people for their refusal to accept that these things could exist and be hidden behind filters, and a lot of time deleting their comments.
To each group I was a thing: to one, a nazi, because I didn't immediately conform to their demands to remove everything they deemed racist and evil and whatever else. To the other, a commie SJW cuck, because I didn't immediately remove everything they deemed degenerate, evil and whatever else.
What we're dealing with right here and now is a site that, besides its safe for work content, hosts art of nearly every fetish you can imagine, and it has decided, for whatever reason, that one particular fetish that is otherwise entirely, unquestionably legal, is no longer allowed. That rankles me.
And yes, I am calling Aryanne a fetish object. Nazi aesthetic fetishism has a long and storied history all the way back to early 50s biker culture (which developed into leather fetishism in general, and is a huge chunk of gay culture now, right down to a lot of the iconography). Even to a little before, when some camp survivors began trying to process their trauma by fetishising and sexualising it.
For the record, nazi shit is not my fetish. Not even slightly. Not in a hundred years. There is content on this site that I have defended vigorously, over the years, that makes me die inside a little every time I have to look at it. I'll even own that, absent all other considerations, I'd delete a lot of it; I even advocated that a few times in the past, until I realised what a hypocrite I was being. I mean, lets face it, I still was and still am for a whole host of reasons, but I have always tried, to the best of my ability, to support the path of greater freedom over lesser.
So that's where I stand, really. I understand what I believe are the reasons for doing this. I disagree with the decision. My friends on the mod team are still some of the best people I know and this site is still arguably the best site for discovering new fandom artists and new fucked up ways to enjoy yourself.
That's all I'll say on the matter here. I likely won't be responding to comments.
I don't think you're evil for this stance. You're doing what you see as the best thing to defend a free society. But the thing is, I still think you're very, very wrong.
The reason is pretty simple. The side opposing racism and the side opposing gay and trans rights are not equal and opposite equivalents. It's a much more stark contrast. I'm going to be blunt about this. On the one side, you have people who want those on the other side dead. On the other, you have those who object to being killed.
This is not hyperbole. This is not hypothetical. This is literally what Nazis want. Me and my friends dead.
Probably some of your friends too. Maybe you, if you've got the wrong ancestors.
Many times there are two sides to an issue. This is not one of those times. There are those who are right, and those who are wrong. And choosing to do nothing, when people are calling for your friend's and neighbor's blood? Well, that's picking a side. There's a rather famous quote about those who said nothing.
In the current state of things, a nuanced opinion is not allowed.
You are either with X, or you are with Y, and both sides will crucify you for trying to step away from the rampant tribalism. They want you to explain your stance in 280 characters or less, because we've lost the art of discourse, in favor of digital torches and pitchforks. Mob mentality has become the norm, and for that we are all lessened.
As you said, Derpibooru was supposed to be an art repository, a gallery where all artwork that didn't break the laws of the hosting country (France, in this instance) could be preserved. By introducing politics and personal views into the rules, staff have broken that idea. They've opened themselves to the question "Why do you allow this", and the answer can't be "because it's not against the law" anymore. There are already calls to ban questionable content like rape from the site, because why not? Staff themselves have decided that morality was now a factor in what is acceptable art.
That decision can't be taken back, and now artists have weaponized Do Not Post requests, both by using them to pressure Derpi staff, and by accusing artists who do not agree to DNP of supporting the other side. Do Not Post request is their right, of course, its their art. But I find it a little sad that cancelling your own artwork from the biggest MLP art repository has now become the norm.
5299874
At a certain point, you have to ask yourself what kind of community do you want. More to the point, what kind of community do you want to support? Being a Nazi still isn't illegal in many places, though you should note the denazification process in Postwar Germany. But that's not the question is it?
The question is whether you want to lend Nazis a voice by allowing them to use your platform to spread hate.
My analogy is this. I put up a billboard to let people see the cool stuff that's going on. I maintain it, I curate the content. Someone comes along and starts using my billboard to promote hate speech. They use it to say there's a race war coming, and it's time to kill The Enemy. I think that's pretty fucked up, and I take down their messages.
That's it. That's all that's going on. I'm deciding that I don't need assholes like that in my community, and showing them to the door. If they want to promote themselves they're free to do so. But I'm under no obligation to give them a venue. They don't have a right to my voice.
5299873
This tired boogeyman is overused, this emotional extremism is transparently manipulative, and nobody wants you and your friends dead because no one cares about them. Your own irrational need to paint anyone who disagrees with you as part of this boogeyman group is the only time it even exists. You can't even discuss images of ponies on an art archive without resorting to "They want me dead!" over and over; this is solely in your head and nowhere else. You have to invent "hidden signs" that it exists, "dog whistles" and "secret phrases" and ridiculous bullshit that gets thrown in everyone's faces, while you stand quite in the open and loudly and clearly say "We need to take action against everyone else and force them to think like we tell them to, or we will destroy them publicly with the support of all public businesses and the government!" The only source of fascism is your own, you hypocritical communist. Go read a history book.
5299879
Thing is, you are looking at Derpi as a community hub first, and if I was in the same boat I would most probably agree with your view. But me, I see Derpibooru first and foremost as an art gallery. And believe me, I've known what true prejudice is, like on the first day of a new job, when I was asked if I was from X ethnic group because they were used to making fun of them...
Yeah, I won't defend that type of behavior, but I do want to preserve artwork. Derpibooru is the biggest, the most efficient booru in terms of filters and search parameters. I don't think the fandom will manage to get another repository as efficient and complete, particularly now that the series has ended and interest has dwindled. Which is why I'm so sad about the mass DNPs that resulted from this clusterfuck, the artwork that has been removed and is now scattered... It's a great, great shame.
5299879
During my tenure, as hinted in the post, I banned several actual racists (one actual self-admitted nazi). They were never welcome on derpibooru.
As I explained, the art is a fetish, no different to art featuring rape or murder. Nobody looks at those two and says that we play host to rapists and murderers.
Look at Aryanne's tag if you don't believe me: nearly all of it is porn, with a smattering of satire and a couple of images that have since been removed under the old rules, which are now the new rules again. That is hardly giving a platform to racists. If anything it's mocking them.
The entire drama swirls around the false premise that depiction is endorsement.
Now I'm going back to not answering comments.
5299882
No one wants me and my friends dead. Hmm. No one wants me and my friends dead.
My Jewish friends. My trans friends. My black friends. My bi self. No one wants us dead.
I guess I was imagining those lynchings. Those murders. The people calling for a race war. All of that was just in my head.
It's easy to dismiss talking about the reality of the situation as emotional manipulation. Yeah, I'm emotional about it. I'm fucking furious. My question is why you aren't.
5299883
I'm saddened by it too. At least there are several alternatives being worked on now, which is a positive for multiple reasons. Putting all your eggs in one basket is never a good idea, even if it is convenient.
5299885
They're my friends too. Let me ask you something that will illuminate your own hypocrisy. Do you think there is a group of people who aren't murdered/robbed/whatever? Do you imagine there is some fantasy utopia land where everything is perfect but only for one group? Are you completely ignorant of the history of the world?
5299887
This is a blatant distraction. But to give you the courtesy of an answer, your question is the same as this. "All ants are under the sun, why do you care about the magnifying glass?"
5299884
Okay, I just want to point out something. You start a blog about neutrality in hosting racist content. Someone shows up to argue that this is a mistake.
And within minutes, you have someone denying racial violence exists at all.
5299889
Yeah, that's what I thought: no answer. Go be furious at a book.
5299886
It has taken years and years for Derpibooru to become the well curated gallery it is now, I was a mod too, I can tell you it's a LOT of work backstage. Heck, even if you only talk about the dev work that has gone into it, Derpi has got some amazing developers that worked hard to make it as smooth as it is now.
And talking about only images, do you realize there's more than 2 million images on derpi? More than 2.000.000. Do you really think new sites will be able to handle the influx and curation of that mass of images, tag them all correctly, give artist credit, etc and etc? Even if the new sites used the philomena project (current derpi structure which is open source and I don't understand why it's not being used) to emulate all the tagging functionalities, in practice it's just impossible to build a new gallery that's half as well tagged and sourced.
5299884
Not even to say hi to one of your old buddies?
5299891
Oh, I totally understand. I've worked on backends and behind-the-scenes on a number of projects (although usually more in meatspace than cyberspace), I fully appreciate how much work is required and that a project eight years down the line has evolved and grown in many ways. Much props to the unsung heroes who have worked on it and never get noticed because things work correctly. But as of a month ago, I don't think there was any alternative or backup available, although I could be mistaken.
5299890
No it's not a lack of answer. But if you want the metaphor translated, I can do so. Yes, people of virtually every group are murdered, abused, and so forth. It's a sad fact of the human condition. But that doesn't mean that some groups aren't targeted far more than others.
Edit: And by the way, I notice it didn't take long to pivot from "Are you completely ignorant of the history of the world?" to "Go be furious at a book." Academic posturing to anti-academic folksiness within two posts, I'm impressed.
5299891
.
I am an ass.
5299893
Did you mean targeted like Jussie Smollett? You know, when he hired two guys to help him stage a failed lynching? Or targeted like Bubba Wallace? You know, the guy who claimed a garage door rope that hadn't been moved since October of 2019 was actually a noose intended to terrify him? Or Amari Allen, who claimed in September 2019 that she was held down and had her dreadlocks cut and then admitted to making it all up? Or how from the same article police in Maryland in 2017 identified the suspect sending violent racist threats against their own high school claiming to be part of the KKK was a 14-year-old black girl? Or this entire list of hate crimes that didn't actually happen? All of these cases of course prompted immediate responses, cries of outrage and pledges of support and political posturing and virtue signaling before any evidence was even collected, with usually not even an acknowledgment that it was fabricated later.
Racism, violence, bigotry, it's all bad and it should all go, definitely, and it has existed in everyone's history. But constantly screaming that there's some super-organized-and-official group targeting "you and your friends" is a boogeyman claim, especially when you say that they're operating on a pony art archive site with the intent of killing you.
5299913
How's them boots taste?
5299917
I'm sorry you support racism, violence, and bigotry. That's rather disgusting.
5299918
Just a joke, since you're saying funny things about the Nazis not wanting to kill people, even though establishing the ethnostate, one of their core goals, requires the violent removal of any nonwhite/nonconforming groups.
5299921
You should work on your reading comprehension. I didn't say anything about what people want to do, I said that the capital-n "Nazis" are a boogeyman group in the modern era when people scream "They want to kill me and my friends!". But you seem to be remarkably well informed on their supposed goals; do you read a lot of nazi literature? Do you attend their meetings? Do you listen to their podcasts? Have a group of nazis that you Skype daily?
5299923
I sure can Google the word "ethnostate" and understand that it means that anybody who espouses Nazi ideology feels that violently removing me from their claimed territories is part of their belief structure. Hi, I'm a member of the LGBTQ+ community, so I'm part of the people that anybody who espouses Nazi ideology would want to kill. I'm also what they'd call a "race traitor" because I have had sexual relationships with people of color! So they have two good reasons to want me dead, if we're keeping score.
I agree, the phrase Nazi is thrown around a lot without thought for what it means. I'm not talking about a edgy shitposter who thinks Aryanne is cute, funny, or a sex object. I'm talking about the people who are Real Actual Nazis. I don't think there are actually very many of them, I actually think racists are a far greater problem than Nazis here.
That said, I think they do use our communities as places for recruitment and creation of imagery that depicts them in a positive light. I don't want that, and since this is a private platform, I feel like, as a member of the userbase, I'm allowed to request this privately-run platform not allow Real Actual Nazis to use us as a recruitment place or for creation of imagery that depicts them in a positive light. And I think that if enough of us ask, they should take note and consider changing their rules on their platform. I'm not saying they *have* to, but I'd certainly take my reading time, ad clicks, and written work elsewhere if they weren't to give at least a modicum of consideration to my suggestion as a member of the userbase. I think that's pretty reasonable a thing to think? Maybe? If you don't think I should ask the people in charge of the site to consider my suggestions, I'd love to hear why, but since you seem to think that Real Actual Nazis don't actually want to kill me, I think your opinions might be a little skewed!
Edit: whoops, forgot a cute pony emote!
5299923
Not actually what you said. Check the tape: 5299882
Or just keep shifting the goalposts. That works too.
5299928
No, it matches up.
5299927
Weird, I've never felt the desire to Google that term. Must be something you're interested in. As part of that, why do you think "They" use pony sites as recruiting grounds? That seems like a very odd assumption to make.
5299929
Gee, I don't know why I think that.
It's almost like I've been consuming media related to the topic since it's been brought to my attention.
But I don't think we're having this conversation in good faith anymore, since you keep insinuating I'm a Nazi.
Which I think is super hilarious, because I realized I'm talking to a massive troll!
So I think that'll be all for this conversation! I'm sorry to have wasted my time with you, I really am! Enjoy your block!
Edit: Whoops again, forgot that darn cute pony emoji!
5299933
I don't know why either, as that first link has already been explained on derpibooru as one "Wootmaster" going to that site and telling lies. You should try not using fabricated information as a source, it's not a good look. I'm sorry you're so frightened of my posts that you literally have to hide them from your eyes, enjoy keeping your head in the sand!
5299928
Hey Bradel, you're a cool guy, I honestly wouldn't bother with this dude if he's going to keep editing his comments to make things look super different and he's going to keep calling me a Nazi. Thanks, tho, you're a gem! Non-sarcastic pony emoji for you!
5299936
Rent free!
5299935
It's weird but I pressed the block button on you but your posts keep showing up? So that's a neat feature!
Sarcastic pony emoji awayyyyyyyyy!
5299938
It's weird you pressed the block button after announcing a block but you can't stop talking about me or to me! It's almost like I'm living rent free in your head. Thanks!
I think dismissing the imagery as "just" fetishism is missing the point.
So, I joined the furry fandom in 1999, which I think qualifies me for the 'greymuzzle' epithet nowadays despite not being out of my 30's yet. And in that first decade of fandom fun, I learned a few things. One was that you shouldn't shame people for their kinks, they don't have any control over them, and it just isn't done. The other is that there are people who really like Nazi uniforms and imagery without, in their words, "actually" being Nazis or supporting the ideology.
The furry fandom taught me to tolerate Nazi imagery in online spaces because to do otherwise was tantamount to kinkshaming, which is bad.
Now, this could be a misbegotten conclusion because the comparison only struck me very recently. But once Nazi ponies started showing up, here and there, in this fandom, I thought nothing of it. Because it's hilarious when ponies espouse real-world hatred, after all. It completely ludicrous. And Nazis are a boogeyman, we killed them all in WWII, they don't exist anymore! And I'm not going to say anything against it anyway, because if I do, I'm a bad kinkshamer.
Priorities.
The rise of the alt-right in the US has been a subtle and pernicious thing, and just so happened to coincide with MLP's 9-year run. I regret that every action we're taking now is happening too late. And I think that maybe, just maybe, some of that image fetishism might also have some ideology fetishism attached to it.
5299913
this comment is literally a masterclass in racist confirmation bias
5300015
Amazing isn’t it? I’ve never encountered something like this in the wild before.
5299882
Okay Boomer
5299938
Blocking only keeps them from commenting on your own content.
5299935
Wootmaster is a friend of mine and a kick-ass dude.
5299884
If it helps I don't think most of us are arguing with you. I mean I disagree with you, strongly, but I've already said my piece. We're arguing with the guy who turned up to say that racist violence isn't actually real, Nazis are boogeymen, and it's all just an imaginary sense of self righteous victimhood.
I do feel like that's a good example of the problem in microscosm though.
5300000
I think this is very well put. There's been a creeping normalization of Nazism and other radical right ideology for years, and this is part of it.
5299883
I feel like this got buried in the response the denial that racist violence exists at all.
I think I can see where you're coming from. I still don't agree but it at least seems worth talking about. If I'm understanding this right, you think that it is important to the community that the image gallery be founded on the principle of absolute neutrality? In other words that the idea that they'll host anything as long as it isn't illegal is a major point in favor?
5300101
Aye, it's the basic principal of an art gallery. As soon as you put limits based on preferences, politics, anything really, it loses its purpose. Derpi staff deciding to forgo that principle, then flip flop on it a few times, only to now be on a very ambiguous stance, is the direct cause for the mass DNP, and the loss of artwork from the repository.
Also, yikes the comments in here...
5300187
Right? A lot of projection and chest-beating going on, a bit of outright fabrication, but very little reading comprehension.
5300090
Starting from roughly here on one of the site announcements from derpi, there's pages and pages of people (from both the pro-censorship and anti-censorship camps) calling for Wootmaster to be banned for doxxing people and for running to The Atlantic with misinformation that started off much of these current events. Beyond that, who knows?
All I will say is that anyone who agrees to censorship or who actively encourages, specially when it comes to art, it is too foolish to understand that it's only a matter of time before they find themselves in the receiving end of what is fashionable to censor.
The thing about satire is, people can often claim they are being satirical as a way of saying things they aren't truly ready to believe yet. Myself and many other transgender people have made jokes about gender as a way of being able to say something without letting people know we how we really feel. Many people I know who are marxist made jokes about being agents of communist russia long before they ever admitted to socialism. And many people I used to know would make racist jokes for the sake of being edgy for a while, and eventually decided it was ok to embrace it with sincerity. Sometimes, satire and parody can be fun deconstructions. And sometimes, they can be a mask, a way of deceiving people by telling the truth when you've primed them to expect a joke.
But even aside from that, parodies of racist, fascist, and otherwise harmful belief, even when they are truly meant in jest, can be harmful themselves. When a person who has faced discrimination and been hurt by real bigotry sees others joking around about it and treating it as a lighthearted issue, it can give the impression that their real problems that they face aren't treated seriously. That might not be the intent, but it's what some people hear. I know it's what I heard, When people joked about the discrimination I lived through.
You can say people need to just curate what they consume, but it's not always that easy. The people who don't care if they say something that hurts you also won't care to warn you. Not everything is tagged with a content warning that should be, and not everything can be tagged. I'm not saying anyone should instate a hayes code or ban civil discussion of sensitive topics. But I'm saying, anyone who has power over what other people can say has to be very aware of the consequences of anything they let slide.