Rollercoaster · 12:52am Jul 3rd, 2020
Derpibooru came out against hate speech and Nazi posting. There was an uproar - one former mod compared banning Nazi art to... Cromwell? So they reversed the decision.
But in publicly reversing the decision;
The reversal has now been reversed - but we'll see how long that lasts. This leaves us with two things here;
1) There is a loud enough, vocal enough portion of this community that is more opposed to the concept of censorship than they are to hate speech and literal Nazi shit that it was enough to force moderators to stand down
2) They're not the majority - but it's big enough group that for a while, it was impossible to tell.
There's an argument I'm seeing a lot of, at the moment, that we need to allow these works freely to explain why we disagree with them - it seems obvious to me the clearer message to send if you think something is unacceptable is to make it unacceptable in the most literal sense.
Until then, you might remember that the kid I mentioned in my last post - the one who had cops kneel on his neck for 15 minutes because he was walking home awkwardly? That one? - had a violin vigil played for him in a park.
Riot police broke it up and pepper sprayed the crowd.
Next blog's probably going to be about Orwell's "Road to Wigan Pier", so stick around for that.
Like, honestly. I've literally read/watched dystopian fiction with more appealing settings than our current reality. I mean, at least all people besides those in power tend to suffer equally in most of them.
So, wait. What's the current status? Are they still banning all the Nazi shit and political stuff? Or are they reversing again? That post seems to imply that so many people were Anti-Nazi that it opened more DNPs than the "no censorship" group ever did. There were enough "no censorship" DNPs to make them allow nazi stuff again, but then SO MANY MORE DNPs made them reverse that decision. That's the current status, yeah?
5299672
Their current status is "cowards" and likely always will be, but yeah, I've lost track of their official policy too.
Maybe people should just tweet at Hasbro letting them know Derpibooru hosts all sorts of fun nazi content (among other things), perhaps with evidence plucked straight from the Aryanne tag embedded. They'd probably hate knowing their brand is slowly becoming associated with it.
Something else that bothers me is how vague they're being on what is and what isn't allowed. No hateful content, sure. But is a swastica hateful? Is Aryanne hateful? I'm not talking about images of Nazi stuff that outright says "kill Jews" or whatever, I'm talking about things like a pony in a Nazi uniform not doing anything harmful.
And to be clear as I can be, my answer to those questions I posed are generally "yes". I'm not arguing on the side of allowing Nazi content if it's not using point-blank hateful words or images, I'm arguing on the side of not allowing anything that could be viewed as pro-Nazi (or other groups, just using Nazis as the talking point because that's the thing to do these days), and especially I'm arguing on the side of being very clear on what is and is not allowed.
5299672
That's the current state of things, yeah
5299680
There's no earthly way Hasbro doesn't know what's on Derpi, they just turn a blind eye to it because shutting it down would harm their brand by harming fan reactions to it much more than allowing it harms them.
5299683
They turn a blind eye simply because not many people bring it up, like many companies. If people make a stink about it on social media and dredge it up into the open, they'd have to act.
5299685
The vast majority of people in the fandom don't care, they're just here for pony art. This is the general attitude of people over the Derpi incident. No matter how many of us cause a stink, it wouldn't be worth it for Hasbro to shut down one of the biggest sites of the pony fandom. And, for that matter, what about Fimfiction? We can talk pots and kettles all we want, but Fimfiction has just as much skeevy content as Derpi does, and seems to care even less about curbing it. Should we get Hasbro to shut down Fimfiction while we're at it? (not that I believe we could, but if we could, should we?)
I believe these things are better sorted out by the fandom, because Hasbro getting involved is just gonna be messy and soil everyone's view of pony.
That mod has no idea what he's talking about, like he expects us to believe him because he lives there. Cromwell didn't do that, he just temporarily closed the Cathedral. The Cathedral had been wrecked pretty thoroughly around 100 years prior by a bishop under Henry VIII. Not the first time Cromwell gets blamed for something other people did. Those artifacts weren't destroyed for merely being "offensive", he's projecting modern political ideas on complex religious strife of the past.
This guy actually wants us to think banning Nazi shit is somehow equivalent to destroying ancient artifacts. Ancient artifacts don't affect much of anyone except archaeologists, but allowing Nazi shit makes those kind of people think that what they're doing is acceptable and that they're welcome there.
5299687
I have to agree. Getting Hasbro involved could not end well at all.
I think Derpibooru already had some images to add on top of sensitive art .. may be something like "Go read Orwell", or "Read about Milgram's experiment", "Last time anyone tried this half of the world was ruined" imposed on top of those images, or something like this will be more interesting/useful than just ban .... Because honestly, ignoring our own built-in 'loophole' everyone can use (not just Nazis, those 'simply' exploited it to logical conclusion) is not fun.
http://www.thespiritof76.com/NEX_NEWS/Storage/TO76/SM_STANL.HTM
I was about to compare political ban with sex imaginary 'ban', but yeah, not fair - most humans (?) do not like politics, yet somewhat buy themselves into hype about sex
Thing is, banning subject X hardly worked with humans, even if it remain popular idea. But we need working ideas, I think ... so, may be it really time to start imagining different response. I think anti-Nazi parodies already out there somewhere ....
This is a tough spot. On the one hand, censorship should never be encouraged because no authoritative institution (political or religious) should ever be lawfully and legally allowed to dictate what a person can or cannot think. Thousands of years worth of history, at least a thousand years worth, shows why that’s bad.
On the other hand, yeah. Hate groups actively acting on hateful beliefs should be stopped. Silenced? Not necessarily. They have a right to believe what they want, even if it is wrong.
5299687
I mean, I wouldn't mind Fimfic going down too, personally. It'd just wouldn't happen because the information conveyed through text is substantially less punchy. It's a lot easier to tweet out a gross Aryanne or Slaveowner Applejack image and get a response then by linking 20 nazi stories on Fimfic.
Two things;
1) I'm pretty against corporations leaning on fandoms over their use of the IP for legal and practical reasons rather than ethical ones. It'd have to be pursued as something "injurious to the brand", which means they'd have to bring up banning the porn, too. People tend to abandon platforms that ban porn and go elsewhere - no sense talking in cancer treatments guaranteed to kill the host. See; Tumblr.
Legally speaking, Hasbro have to pretend they know nothing - as soon as they acknowledge anything, they have to acknowledge everything.
2) That being said, yes, all of this also applies just as much to FimFiction as it does to Derpibooru - it's just that Fimfiction's staff has been even more apathetic to it.
Derpibooru's response is still wishy washy, so I'm not letting up and I'll continue to encourage artists to request Do Not Posts.
My hope is that this makes the FimFiction admin (my understanding is that it's literally just him) wake up and see this could happen to FimFiction too if they don't come down harder on Nazi works. However, compared to Derpibooru, this site has the benefit of (1) not straight up endorsing Nazi stuff, which is what triggered artists abandoning Derpibooru, and (2) it being harder to notice the Nazi stuff, particularly since it's often M-rated.
To everyone talking about censorship, there's something important that really needs to be said here. This isn't about censorship. Derpi isn't saying people can't make content, they're saying they won't host that content. Derpi is not a public free for all, it's a website with a community goal. They're allowed to say what they want in their community. That's not censorship, that's just what they'll personally give a platform to.
5299669
As long as you're willing to stand behind the party line at all times, Orwell's 1984 is merely boring rather than dangerous.
There's always the Bender solution: Go make their own image board. With Aryanne. And swastikas. Nothing stopping them but the server costs and the web design.
If nothing else, I do hope the Derpi staff at least commits to a position. I'm all for reassessing things after new facts come to life, but after a point, it gets silly.
I find it kinda disconcerting how different the comments sections of blog posts like these are compared to those of someone like TittySparkles—the difference in vocal opinions is practically night and day.
Cultural tribalism can be such a pain, man.
I'm giving them a couple days to see if they clarify what the fuck is happening before deleting my account. I imagine they want to pretend none of this happened but nah man, ban those swastikas.
It bothers me significantly less on Derpi because at least there I can modify my content down to a stupidly meticulous degree for what I want to see and what I don't. Not only does this mean that I can just surf and enjoy my weird kink in peace without some bullshit marshing my mallows, it also means that I ain't gotta see the garbage nazi garbage posted by garbagemen.
5299669
I had the very awkward experience of reading Confessions of a Former Bastard Cop and seeing a disturbing amount of overlap between that and the dystopian worldbuild I was in the middle of developing. Like, to the point where I had to take a step back for a hot second and wonder if I really wanted to be writing the story I was writing. The answer was still yes, but that moment was still sobering as hell.
5299718
Please don't use tribalism rhetoric, especially "Cultural" terminology
5299713
Not really, the party line is constantly changing. Deliberately. To make absolutely sure that staying behind the party line means giving up all independent thought. That’s the whole point of duckspeaking.
5299698
There’s an argument which while longer, can be summarized thus: in order for a tolerant and diverse society to exist it must respect and value everything except intolerance. To do otherwise is to cede the ground to the people who would destroy you and the society you love.
There’s also a much broader and simpler point. They can think what they want... but no one else is under any obligation to host them or help them spread their views. Taking them off social media, derpi, and such isn’t making their views illegal. It’s saying that they aren’t welcome in our community and showing them the door. Which is also freedom of speech.
5299771
Except that’s still censorship. If anyone’s rights to post what they want in order to express their views, even if they’re wrong and contentious, then they should rightfully be allowed to do so. True, sites should also be allowed to have rules about what is or isn’t allowed to be posted, yet by choosing to censor, they also set precedence. And once precedence has been set for one, then that’s it. Who’s to stop them from deciding others are being hateful as well? Or maybe certain things shouldn’t be allowed because it will cause disagreement? It will always come down to control.
5299787
Ah, I see the disconnect. You’re viewing derpi and such as a public forum, equivalent to a town square where anyone can stand on a soapbox and shout. But it isn’t. It’s a community created by people and hosted by people. No one has the right to come into my living room and hang up a swastika on my wall. No one has the right to make ME read out a copy of the Protocols or whatever the latest lies are. If someone is using my space which I have created then it is my right to determine how they use it. And if I allow, and I repeat for emphasis, fucking Nazis to use my space to promote their views? That makes me complicit. And if that’s censorship, it’s only in the same sense that refusing to eat a shit sandwich is ‘discrimination’.
5299787
First they came for the Nazis, and I did not speak out, because I wasn't a Nazi
Then they came for the racists and the bigots, and I did not speak out, because I wasn't a racist or a bigot
And then they came for the socialists, and honestly I was pretty cool with them coming for me at that point because my need to be as outspoken in this social context had been eliminated
And then they stopped there because the calls for coming for these people were from popular demand and it was pretty unpopular to come for anything else at that point.
One thing I don't get about these conversations is that 'It's about establishing precedent' people never actually say what other topics they're worried about being censored.
Like, what are you actually worried about being decided would be 'hateful' and being censored? Specifically? What's the "and then-" you're actually worried about here?
This is a line I see said a lot at this point, and I'm honestly wondering why updating decisions on what is and isn't hateful is a problem here - What positions do you think shouldn't be censored, but are worried would be if we started yeeting Nazis and racists?
This is a reply to 5299787 in part, but it's an open-floor question I'm asking here.
I'm glad Derpi banned the Nazis again, but the way they've dealt with the situation is completely pathetic. Immediately undoing the ban the moment there was an outcry, and then reversing the undoing the moment there was another outcry is just--
They have no fucking position there, they've no actual opinion on the matter. They don't care. The only reason the ban's happened is public opinion; it's blatantly obvious they'd be super fucking okay with the Nazis if people hadn't issued DNPs in the first place. I'm glad they're reacting by banning Nazis now, but they're still being completely reactionary and keep banging the drum of "sorry we just don't communicate with the fanbase properly uwu".
Take a stand, you fucking cowards. You shouldn't ban Nazi content because otherwise the big artists will leave you; you should ban it because Nazi content is fucking deplorable. I'm not magically okay with Derpibooru now just because their absolute lack of a spine works both ways.
5299787
If I don't want Nazis in my house, I kick all the Nazis out of my house, and that's that. The slippery slope argument doesn't work if you make a strong statement at the start -- "No Nazi, racist, homophobic, transphobic, or hateful content" -- and follow it rigidly. If someone comes to you with something political that doesn't fall into that (I don't know, fucking, Fluttershy in a MAGA hat or whatever stupid shit they come up with) isn't banned on that principle, and that's it.
"Precedents" don't matter when we're dealing with something as fucking blatant as a character named Aryanne and literal explicit Nazi content. This is not a matter of subtlety, this is literal swastika banners in the website. It is not difficult, or a morally gray situation, to ban them.
5299801
One thing which does bug me, and which I think we should keep a lid on, is the ever escalating iconoclasm. This isn’t to say I’m against all of it. Columbus? Great, he was a slaving rat bastard and a moron to boot. Emperor Leopoldo, tear the statues down but cut off the arms first to make into a monument for his crimes. Confederate states? Fine, we don’t need any treason participation trophies. Not to mention they were created in the first place to enforce segregation.
Where I get twitchier is when this expands, as you see it do in discussions, to every artist and historical figure who ever had a fracked up view or two. It was the past, it sucked and things have gotten a lot better even if we’ve got a long way to go... and a consequence of that is that ‘get rid of everyone and everything problematic’ ultimately translates to ‘get rid of everything.’ As Malcolm Reynolds famously said, everyone who got a statue made of them was one kind of son of a bitch or another.
5299806
5299801
5299790
5299791
Look, it’s an incredibly heated topic. Rightly so. Nazis should by no means be tolerated. That I agree with everyone whole heartedly. Same with racism and bigotry. All of those things have no place in a civilized society, which I’ve really been questioning whether we still live in one or not.
As far as censorship goes, well, look how well and marvelous it’s going for the Chinese. The CCP, the Communist Party of China’s, are masters of it, and they’re precisely what I’m talking about. You want to know just how influential their censorship is? It’s beginning to leak into our society. The NBA has bent the knee to them on multiple fronts. Blizzard banned a Hearhstone player for supporting Hong Kong, which is a huge, huge, tragic situation. All for the sake of preserving the good grace with the CCP to keep making money.
That is why censorship is so big. It’s a humongous red flag with a hammer and sickle on it. It’s a flag with the swazticka flying proudly. Because they all committed censorship too. They’re still committing censorship.
You can disagree all you want. It won’t change it for what it is. It always starts somewhere. And where you think it’s needed is usually where it begins. It only spreads out from there. Remember that for precedence.
5299813
You know, somehow I feel comparing this to Derpibooru is a false equivalency, but I just can't quite put my finger on the why.
You do understand there's a difference between the government of a country and a privately owned website, right?
5299813
And again, I think you’re fundamentally misunderstanding the situation. Being a Nazi isn’t illegal. If they want to start up their own website talking about Nazi Ponies 24/7 that’s not illegal either. They want to start their own printing press and start handing out pamphlets in the street? Still not illegal. This isn’t censorship.
But I don’t have to give them my printing press. I don’t need to make a website for them. And I sure don’t have to keep quiet about them. It’s my right to tell them to their face that they’re cowardly, hate mongering scum.
Your argument is that they should be allowed to enlist my voice in support of their cause, and that is not something I will abide or accept.
5299813
Okay, so Aragon's already partially addressed this, but I want to actually say why it's different - One's backed by (hopefully) popular call, and the other from a top-down authority structure.
Which brings me to my second point; What specifically are you worried about it spreading to? What kind of censorship in the context of Fimfiction and Derpibooru are you more worried about than the presence of hate speech?
5299818
5299817
5299815
And talk about a swing and a miss. Your claims of missing the point are precisely why you’re missing mine.
The CCP didn’t start overnight in a position of power. Neither did the Nazis. Because that’s not where it starts. The censorship of ideologies doesn’t start at the top and trickle down. It grows like a weed.
And am I concerned or worried about my beliefs being censored? Yes and no. Because you literally don’t know how it will impact you in the long run until after the fact. Idealizing is one thing.
And while there is a huge difference between glorifying Naziism and writing a fictional historical fic, through censorship, both could be banned. Does that help my point sink in?
...After some further thinking - isn't 'Nazi' actually brand name by now, of some sort? May be something brand-destroying can be useful (but still, with more pro-active explanation about why it was and is really bad - humans gangs up, and often not in nice way ...)
On X-related theme I just finished reading X-Rated Men - quite sad story, if you ask me ... I definitely dislike when someone is "chewed up and spit out" - be this case about human(s) or dolphin(s) or someone else.
5299823
I didn't miss your point;
Fimfiction and Derpibooru can't impose any form of censorship that affects my life outside using the site in a way that a government can. It has no way to enforce its platform outside the platform. If it starts banning historical fics, it doesn't prevent me from writing it - it just means I have to go somewhere else. But my ability to go somewhere else is in no way restricted.
That's all it can do, but it's also why it's good to advocate for it here; I would like Nazis and racists to go somewhere else.
5299823
I do understand what you’re saying. That it’s a slippery slope from banning Nazis to... actually you haven’t said. But let’s take the most extreme example, sending intellectuals to the gulags or something. I hear you. I just don’t accept your premise.
But even if I did? In that most extreme hyperbolic example? Doesn’t leave me any worse off. It’s a choice between people who might, maybe want me dead someday or people who do, definitely want me dead now.
5299823
You're missing the point because you're making an absurd argument. You're talking about enormous, totalitarian governments, and we're talking about banning racism on imageboards and fiction websites. I mean what could happen, the admins sending people to the pony gulag?
The Nazi didn't get in power because of censorship, and neither did the CCP. In fact, Hitler whined about free speech and how he was being "silenced" by the Weimar government, complete with hackneyed propaganda of him with tape over his mouth. Goebbels even mocked the Weimar government for extending freedoms to them which they then used to destroy it.
5299829
Which is what we were getting at with the idea that tolerant societies can't tolerate hate.
5299829
What you just said is my point. You even mentioned what I said as well. Literally everything in your comment and response is exactly what I was getting at. It doesn’t start big. It doesn’t start at the highest level. It grows like a weed. Rather ironic how you blindly hit the nail on the head.
5299841
Wait are you actually saying that you see the argument for deplatforming Nazis on this website as leading to living in a authoritarian political regime?
5299830
Yeah, thanks for spelling it out in relatively short manner. ("in order for a tolerant and diverse society to exist it must respect and value everything except intolerance."). But then there is quite big amount of 'hate actions behind smiley face' types of behavior .... Humans changing their (public-faced) outside sadly often doesn't really think about themselves & society, so they not change further, and thus there might be quite bad surprise .... As one meme running around says - "Trump might be bad, but what you may learn about your family and friends can be worse". Thing is ..may be such 'exposure events' can and even should be "staged", to some degree? At least you will know who is who around you .... To be honest I really hope in many (younger?) humans this nazi thing is something passing, temporary, something they will grow out eventually. But who knows how it really will be played ..:/
Not quite related link, I have it hanging around since forever:
http://www.log-of-the-moira.com/45LECTUR.HTM
as far as I understand this is lightly fictionized story about quite real events ..and, if you realize it was played out nearly 30 years ago (so this sexy women on sidebar currently quite old, but hopefully still loved.. in a good sense!) yet whole dolphin captivity thing is nowhere near to be solved or 'about to be solved soon' ... :( :( :(
5299842
All that I am saying is that it starts where you don’t expect it to. Ripple lead to waves. And the road to hell is paved with good intention. It always starts small. And always with the term “tolerance” thrown around. There Is nothing more intolerant than tolerance.
And it’s probably for the best I don’t mention that we are always a few laws and election away from an authoritative political regime.
5299847
Okay, everybody's too busy actually trying to explain the situation to you, and I value their efforts, they're doing the Lord's work. But I need you to understand that this is the stupidest fucking thing I've read in a while.
Like, genuinely.
5299851
And people wonder why or how history can repeat itself when it’s so obvious. This is why. No one learns from history. And of course, it’s ended in the inevitable “That’s a stupid thought.”
You’re entitled to your opinion of course, but don’t worry. I’m not going to start calling for “Your idea is stupid.” To be labeled as hate speech.
5299852
I'm sure the Derpibooru regime has the authority to break into users' homes and execute them for posting Nazi artwork, definitely. Eventually. Maybe.
This isn't even the US govt or whatever doing it. It's a privately owned website. They can post their hateful garbage somewhere else if they so please.
5299855
5299841
How in the world is what I said showing your point? What I was trying to show is that groups like the Nazis will use the freedoms they are given to destroy freedom, so a society cannot be completely tolerant of groups like them. They did not use their freedoms in anything even approaching a responsible manner. Fascists do not act in good faith, when they complain about how they are "censored", they don't actually care about free speech at all, they just use free speech as a tool to gain power. Goebbels himself said that the Weimar Republic was foolish to extend full freedoms to them, since they were intent on destroying democracy! Because their movement was allowed to fester and grow, they were eventually appointed to power and they ushered in a totalitarian regime.
5299847
This is so vapid I can't even respond to it.
5299852
If it is reasonable that allowing censorship on these websites would lead to a normalization of censorship would lead to authoritarian governments
Then it is exactly as reasonable that allowing Nazis to spread their views on these websites would lead to a normalization of Nazis would lead to a Nazi government.
There is no argument you can make for the truth of the first that is not equally true for the second. For instance, from your own comments:
"Why does nobody learn from history? Didn't we learn the first time what allowing Nazis a platform led to?"
"All that I am saying is that it starts where you don’t expect it to. Ripple lead to waves. And the road to hell is paved with good intention. It always starts small. You allow Nazis on these websites, and you never know where it's going to end. And it’s probably for the best I don’t mention that we are always a few laws and election away from a fascist political regime"
"It doesn’t start big. It doesn’t start at the highest level. It grows like a weed."
I think they're both unreasonable, to be clear.