Let's talk about being suicidal · 4:52pm Mar 3rd, 2020
I wanted to talk about a realization I’ve had about depression, and specifically the suicidal side of depression. I want to start a discussion on this because it’s hard to talk about being suicidal, and that’s a problem. The main thing I’ve come to realize is that we only use one word, “suicidal”, but it means many more than one thing.
I’ve always found it hard to talk about having suicidal thoughts. I always think, you know, if I tell someone I’m thinking of killing myself that I’ll actually do it. I’m afraid of getting sent to a crisis center because that would be a special kind of hell for me. But like, I have tried to kill myself, so it’s safe to say it’s something I’ve needed to talk about more often than I have. Would I have still tried to kill myself if I had talked about the building feelings beforehand? Man, I don’t fucking know, but shit if it might help it’s worth a shot, right?
So yeah, I’m always a little suicidal. This took me a long time to admit, even to myself, because I’m so god damn afraid of getting sent to a crisis center (my brother worked in one, I know they’re not necessarily that bad but that they are kind of a combination of things I hate, like being around strangers, being disconnected from the internet, and not having control of my meals). But the thing is, this realization that I’m always suicidal is important to realizing that I’m not always at that crisis point. Because as I see it, there’s a good five levels of being suicidal. Or at least, this is my experience, although it might be different for others.
At the first stage, I just think about dying very passively. Maybe this car will hit me and it’ll all be over. Maybe I’ll just not wake up. These are almost longing thoughts. Not thoughts I would choose if given the choice, but they have a twisted sort of comfort. The idea that at any moment things might just end and I won’t have to worry about dealing with life anymore is how I feel on a good day.
The second stage is still passive, but it’s more direct. This is the “I don’t want to live” stage. The bizarre thing is that I still don’t actively want to die, I just want to not live. It’s not a logical feeling so I really can’t explain it, but stage three is “I want to die”. These two are mostly different in how they’re framed in my mind, but the slightly more active phrasing of “I want to die” is a huge difference in my mind.
Fourth is “I want to kill myself”. This is when I’ll usually reach out to others, because any lower and I just think I’m worrying them over nothing (remember, I’m always some degree of suicidal, so it’s hard to think it’s worth talking about for me). Something really big has to happen to get me at this point, and it’s where we get really close to that crisis point, but it still doesn’t mean I’ll act on those feelings. It’s like if someone pisses you off and you want to punch them in the face. No, you’re not going to do it, but fuck do you want to.
The final stage is “I’m going to kill myself”. It’s still not a given I will act on it, but I intend to at this point. I’ve hit it a number of times, and only once did I actually try to kill myself, but the intention is there is the point. This is the crisis moment where my comfort be damned I probably need an intervention.
But see, there’s the problem. If you tell someone you’re feeling suicidal, then they’re going to assume you mean a stage five, about to find a tall building to jump off of type deal. Which means often when I tell someone I’m feeling suicidal, rather than the support I need I get their fear of losing me. I spend most of my time reassuring them instead of the other way around. In turn, it keeps me from talking about it, especially at anything lower than stage four. How do I explain to someone “I’m at the ‘I want to die’ stage, but like, it’s not that serious”?
So I guess my point here is twofold. I want to encourage people to speak more openly when they’re feeling suicidal, I want it to no longer be a taboo topic, I think we’d all do a little better if we could talk about it more. But even more so, I want people to stop assuming the worst when they hear someone mention feeling suicidal. Take the time to learn what they mean, where they’re at specifically. Ask them if they have any intention to hurt themselves, and then go from there. Remember that what you think of as suicidal may or may not be where they’re at, and give support without assuming the worst unless you’ve been given reason to assume the worst (but of course still take it as deathly serious).
I've gone through enough bouts of this over the years, and it's only recently that things have been heading up for me. College and stuff have actually been quite helpful in that regard, as has medical transitioning. I'm not really good at giving advice on this in general, non-personal ways and that's partly because it's a subject that should always be handled with care. My usual suggestion when things get to this level for people is to try and access a therapist, even if it is not a traditional one (that BetterHelp thing comes to mind; they're more feasible than a lot of traditional practices) because letting your feelings bottle up is horrible, and sharing them when they're an "always" like you describe with a select few people can be bad for them too.
5213443
Oh yeah, therapy is definitely the go to answer when possible. I mostly just wanted to talk about how being suicidal can mean more than just one thing here.
5213444
Definitely, but every blog like this I see has me worried; it's not something that's usually posted unless you're in the headspace.
5213446
Me: *Posts blog about how people should be able to talk about suicide without being in the crisis point*
Ice Star: *Is worried I'm at the crisis point*
I'm actually pretty good right now, immediately after posting this I started dancing energetically to Coinky-Dink World even lmao. I was feeling pretty suicidal earlier in the week, now I'm down to like a stage two which isn't really bad for me.
5213452
I wasn't worried about the crisis point, just that you might be at any stage in the cycle again. I don't think that you should have to be at your absolute worst for someone to be concerned. It's good to hear you're faring okay, though.
5213455
Well like I said I'm always somewhere on this spectrum, but I gotcha. Thanks for the concern, but this was really just trying to be open about something I experienced earlier in the week rather than right this moment
It's strange how some of these could've been my words. Thought about it a lot, never spoke them, came to similar conclusions. I might want to use this as a way to... explain, if I get your permission, that is.
5213463
Of course, by all means. If my words can shed light on the topic to anyone at all, that’d be amazing.
What annoys me the most is when I have said to people "I want to kill myself" or "I'm thinking about death", they seem to shrug it off and reply with the same thing: "that's not funny". They don't realise that I'm being serious. I think it should be discussed more if I'm going to be honest.
5213468
Oof yeah that’s a whole other problem... I’m sorry you’ve had that reaction
Suicide is a hard issue for me to talk about because I simply cannot understand it. That first stage of "I might die" thoughts is completely the opposite of comforting for me, and I strive my every waking moment to work against the idea. :B
5213468
What would you rather people ask you instead? What would be a better way to respond? Asking seriously, because I'm not good at dealing with people.
5213473
5213470
I mean, I guess it depends on who's being asked. If it's me, I wouldn't mind them asking if anything's wrong or if they can help. It makes it seem that they're being serious about how I'm feeling, which is good. One thing I've learnt is that there is always help; you just need to know it's there.
Right, so temporarily getting out of lurker-mode, 'cause you always have such interesting indsigts, and this really feels like a safe space to talk about this stuff. Also you built this around levels and lists and that is like crack for my neurodivergent brain.
And firstly I have to say that for me it was different in the way that dying was never really a personal desire, but more are thing that ought to happen. I have never really seen this take before, and I suspect this is the reason I have never talked to anyone about it before, as even now I kinda feel like it wasn't the "real" way to be suicidal. Perhaps there really are different "flavors" so to speak? In my case it was very closely related to my autism and autistic burnout, due to the nature of it being more about being overwhelmed and an undefined state of being constantly ashamed from not being able handle things. I never I actually hit a "I really want to die" as much as my personal desire to live was overtaken by the idea of not deserving to be alive. I had a constant mantra of "What I want is not important. Only doing the the Right thing is"
So, just in case others might have the same experience....
For me stage one was more subtle, it was a deep want for the world to just freeze, so that I could get the time to progress and get a grip on my life - like, I often found myself wishing a month would just keep on going for ages, even if thing was shitty - I just desperately wanted time to handle the shit.
Stage two was when I felt I had lost control (this is when Shame sets in) and I wanted to just disappear, not die, but just leave, run away from it all, like in the forest like some hermit.
Stage three is when the idea of punishment sets in and I would subtly begin to self-harm as a way of coping, and suicide starts appearing as the final sort of punishment, or as a way to remove yourself from being a burden. Thought about how the world would be better if you weren't there begins.
At stage four shame is an everlasting companion, and each mistake or failure is tallied up as a reason for removing yourself, actual suicidal ideation is constant, and I would vaguely ponder the best methods.
I only ever hit my stage five once, where I sat for hours seriously planning on how to do it the way that would be the most quick and the easiest to clean up after.
Ironically I hit this stage as I was finally being pressured into getting some proper help, and as such I would like to give a warning;
Always, always have someone on hand, on speed-dial or just aware to talk to when you start on a new med or treatment, it Will do things to your head, those stories about antidepressants actually causing suicide are not jokes, but a result of the treatment changing your current situation, and sometimes that might give you the drive to do the wrong thing.
In the end I got through it because my overanalytical ass began to calculate just how much of a financial and practical problem I would leave behind, and as such I could not justify going through it, also I still owed a small sum in student loans, and I felt ashamed that I could't even pay those back.
So yeah, student loans prevented me from killing myself.
Not sure if this can actually help others, but since weaponizing my self-loathing did work, perhaps keep it in mind?
Though I fully understand my situation is very very different from most people, due to living in a filthy commie hell-hole that provides free healthcare and free education (the loans was for everyday finances and very very minor compared to what I know other countries bring on their youth). And I might be very very lucky as this is likely the reason I have not dealt with these sort of feelings for, what, at least two years?
In final, I guess my input is on a different kind of mindset? And a wonder if there are other stages/experiences of the situation?
But also, how burnout from other disorders can be the underlying reasons for the ideation to begin?
I didn't know I was suicidal until I almost died. Even then it took me a few months to admit to myself that what I did was intentional.
If you have insight, definitely get help. Don't wait until you're helplessly watching yourself do something terrible.
5213512
Thank you for sharing.
To answer your question i don't think anyone talked about the wishing you were never created stage.
which would slot neatly in at stage 3 on krickis' list of 1 2 4 and final list.
(for me at least)
I usually tend to hover around stage one, and dip into two during my lower slumps, but usually not further than that. I guess executive dysfuntion sometimes is actually helpful, by keeping me from working up motivation for stuff and actually going through with it, huh.
It's good to hear someone put that the strange feeling of comfort from those kinds of thoughts into words, too. I think my psychologist once called that "thoughts of death" rather than suicidal thoughts, and I thought that felt like a nice distinction to make, as I've also struggled a bit with the awkwardness of trying to explain "I'm kinda suicidal sometimes, but it's really not that bad". It's still not something that I feel I can expect most people to instantly get and not be worried/horrified by, but still.
Well there's no way I'll allow myself to live into my 80s or probably even 70s first of all. I don't give a damn how much it's romanticized, I've watched the process and see no dignity in a person's mind and body falling apart. I know people's capabilities vary at those ages, what I actually dread is sticking around too long and being too debilitated to end myself at my discretion. Senility is a n i g h t m a r e. Young people should be forced to observe it, seriously. And realize what a gift of power it is to be able to check out voluntarily, versus not even being able to understand how fucked up you are.
I won't subject my family to the knowledge of my desiring and accomplishing suicide while I'm relatively young and healthy, I really care about them. They made my childhood a good one. They would always be asking themselves where they went wrong, what could they have done differently. I want to minimize their suffering, so I can't do what I want yet. What I would actually do if I could would be to completely erase my existence from this timeline. It would void any sense of guilt or loss from anyone I've ever interacted with because I was never even here. I don't know where that places me on your scale because it's annihilation, not suicide. If it were a button in front of me I'm at push it now. But I have to work within my constraints.
Me: *Starts a discussion on suicide*
Me, hours later: *feels too emotionally drained to reply to comments*
5213473
I would personally think the most important thing to ask is "Do you think you'll act on those feelings?" Of course support them no matter the answer, but knowing whether they just want to die or if they actually have intent to follow through with it is extremely important. From there you can try to support to the situation as best you can.
5213512
Thank you for sharing your experiences and your take on things. I think you're right that we're coming at it from different POVs – I have a huge ego and a lot of self love, so my motivations are definitely more in the "I have too many problems and don't see an end in sight" kind. That said, I don't think either is the "right" or " wrong" way to feel in this situation, which is why it's important to have different people with different situations come forward. And whatever your reasons for keeping on going, I'm glad you're still here, and I hope you're getting the support you need now.
5213526
I do hope to get back into therapy someday, and I'm on antidepressants which help a lot even if they haven't gotten rid of the suicidal thoughts I've had most of my life. Likewise, I hope you're getting the help you need now that you've had your awakening, rude though it may have been.
5213570
True, I didn't account for "I wish I was never born" because I've never experienced it. Which is of course not to say it's not a way people feel, just that it's not something I've felt so it slipped my mind. I don't think we could make a truly universal list where everyone would hit everything in a neat order, but it certainly is worth considering that people do feel that way too and that's of course related to these feelings I talked about.
5213615
Thoughts of death vs suicidal thoughts, that's a very good distinction. I don't think I ever opened up to my therapist that I was having suicidal thoughts, and I downplayed it to my psychiatrist (which still got me on antipsychotics, which I needed, but I should've been upfront about it). I was too afraid of being sent to a crisis unit to speak openly, which I now realize was foolish of me.
5213694
That's a very bleak outlook. I'm afraid I don't have it in me to really argue the point at the moment though, nor do I think a random person on the internet telling you that life is worth more than you give it credit for is going to help you. So I just hope you come to see things differently some day.
5213570
Hmm, I think that one would flitter through my head from time to time, as a nice and easy fantasy, but it never really took root I guess, due to it not being a practical solution?
And if I understand you correctly, it is at the "I want to die" stage? That kinda interesting, I would have thought such pondering would be more on the "passive" stages and not the "active" stage, due to the nature of the ideation seeming (at least to me) a passive one.
5213710
I am actually doing very very well now, as a result of both meds and therapy. I am still on meds, but ended therapy about half a year ago.
Mostly I think I got a handle on it because my case was so very linked to being autistic. A lot of my issues was from shame and trying to power though problems, but once I learned to accept my limitations, and on how to recognize when I was hitting a bad day and, to quote Jenny Lawson, ride it out instead of battling it, my ideation stopped. I never talked to anyone about it, for similar reasons as yours, but since we ended up treating the underlying issues, I think it worked out fine for me.
I looking at the comments, I think it might help not just to know what "stage" a suicidal person is on, but also what "kind" of suicidal ideation they are dealing with. Hmm, have there ever been any research into that sorta thing? I would think it ought to exist.
5213934
Glad to hear you're doing better, and I know exactly what you mean about trying to power through autism. I'm autistic as well, and I think my depression was worsened significantly because I would try to do things neurotypical people could do because I felt I ought to be able to do them as well (social situations mostly; I worked as a cashier for seven years and that was hell). I've definitely got major depression on top of being autistic (and generalized anxiety to boot), so while it's more the depression than the autism to me, all my stuff kinda feeds one into another sometimes.
I agree there's definitely more to it than what stage the person is at, and the reasons and exact feelings that go into feeling suicidal are very important to understand for anyone giving support. While the most important thing is to figure out if the suicidal person has any intention to harm themself, the second most important thing is, I think, to generally find out what suicidal means to them. Both in terms of what type of suicidal they're feeling and to what degree. I'm unsure what research has been done on the subject, but I may look into it sometime.
I get the feeling of stage 1.
The way you described it, I just know it's that same feeling I have some times.
It's usually when I know for sure that I'm safe but maybe something happens and I think "yea, I could die just like that...", like when I'm on a walkway and a car passes by right next to me. What scares me is how comfortable I can be with the idea sometimes.
There are even times when I wake up numb and blind and I can't feel my limbs and I think that my heart is going to fail me and that could be it, and while a little part me is scared another is submissive, ready to just let go.
The thing is, I don't think I've ever reached stage 2... and if I did, it was either a fickle moment or the aftermath of an external crisis. But even then, whenever I was unhappy with my life I've always relied on my imagination to relieve stress, I've always escaped with stories and fictional words and ideas and philosophy.
Furthermore, I can be very stubborn at times. And one thing I was always super very stubborn about was one rule I came up with when I was... I don't know, ten? It was a rule I made up out of simple logic because I knew what suicide was, and I knew it happened to people so I spent some time thinking about it and I made up my mind. The way I ended up being, a moody and nihilistic cynic, just that moment, just that thought, might have saved my life from myself.
I just thought that, no matter what I did, I could do anything in my life... death would always come anyway at some point.
I thought:
"I don't know what will give me happiness, I don't know what I have to do. Maybe I have to do many many things, maybe I have to do one thing.
Maybe I have to die. Or maybe not.
But if I do have to die, I'll die anyway at some point.
If I don't, then I have to live and do something else. Anything else. And I can't do that if I'm dead.
And if I have to die anyway, and if that really is the point of life, that means everything else is something more.
That means everything more is a gift. Something special.
That means I can't waste it.
That means I'll die, and it'll be the last thing I do."
That said, I don't consider myself suicidal. I've always been curious and, at that age, I was curious about death.
Yea, I'm that kind of person that looks over the edge and asks himself: "how would that feel like?"
Nevertheless, that kind of thought can lead to suicidal instinct.
I've thanked my young self for that thought many times already.
So, this is my entry about suicide, and my suicidal thoughts.
5213965
It's good that you have this outlook, and I hope it'll continue to stay this way for you. It makes sense, and I wish I could be that logical in the face of my own suicidal thoughts.
Speaking as someone who has never been suicidal for more than the briefest of flashes this time around, I can't sympathize fully with the feeling. My typical response is "Permanent solution to temporary problems" rather than the gamut of other platitudes. That being said, I've seen a lot of this from the outside and have to thank you for the new tool of that scale that you've given me.