Wrestling with Canon (S3 spoilers I guess) · 12:18pm Nov 12th, 2012
Well this has been a weekend of things that ALMOST went right. I've got some drafts sitting around but I'm grinding over some details in the show right now and I'm just trying to get it all in my head before making final revisions and submitting.
This is kind of spoilers for episode S3E1.
-A thousand years before the pilot episode, Celestia banished Nightmare Moon.
-A thousand years prior to the season three premiere, Celestia and Luna are shown banishing King Sombra. At least two winters after the start of the show.
(as a side note they're always depicted looking roughly the same age 1000 years ago as they are now. Just leaves to speculation how old these two might ACTUALLY be.)
The best I can figure is that these events are (roughly) a thousand years prior (and not exactly) and the Crystal Empire stuff happened shortly before Luna went to the dark side.
-Now we have Hearth's Warming, an indeterminate time in the past. Ponies don't live in 'Harmony.' The way they present this seems a little odd... it seems like they're talking about principles of magic, which is also friendship. But there's also a magic powered by love, and a magic powered by darkness (not necessarily evil?) So maybe there's a multiplicity of power sources, kinds of magic. That works.. The time is described as 'long before the peaceful rule of Celestia.' (And what about Luna, anyway?) But by the conclusion of the play Luna and Celestia are depicted on the banner in the center. (The colors are off, but it's the same colors used in at least one of the stained glass historic windows.) So either they stepped into power pretty early (which is believable) or the play is kind of retroactively inaccurate (also believable, given the nature of centuries-old fables).
So portraying the history of this series can be... a real nightmare. My stance on fanfiction is to respect the canon as much as possible--excepting of course, maybe, the ways in which the concept of the fiction is built on. Which becomes a headache when it trips over itself. Not outright contradicts itself, but gets into little tangles that can be hard to unwind. Add in the fact that you can assume that there's some revisionist history going on... and well, where do you draw the line? Do you try to make sure every detail of the story adheres to every detail of the show, even when some of those details might be inaccurate in the ponyverse? Fanfiction is essentially a fiction of a fiction of an invisible continuity.
So Luna and Celestia are a mess.
Discord is... troubling. And in a lot of ways the story I'm writing is his story. There's not a lot of room for budging in his villainous-ness. He's the 'mischievous spirit of disharmony.' But he's not about destruction. He screwed up the mane 6 pretty bad but to be fair they were basically on a mission to re-imprison him forever. Yeah, he's a huge inconsiderate jerk. But he's not omniscient. He does have a personality. He seems to prefer whimsy and... an obscene amount of snackfoods. He has the 'head of a pony.' So is he part pony?
I'm getting off-topic. You wouldn't be reading Dream of Dawn (and I'm assuming you are) if you didn't buy into the premise. The show's history is incredibly biased towards ponies, and for that matter, towards Celestia. Am I saying that she's some evil manipulative god-queen treating her country to her whims? No, not at all. This is just what happens to history over the course of centuries and millenia. And of COURSE they're not going to go into the possibility of Discord not being a one-note evil plotface.
'Well he's not super evil but since he's a primal spirit he can't control his true nature, and he can be a real jerk, but he never actually physically hurt anypony.' Not to mention that there are some ponies like Pinkie Pie that actually really enjoy what he does... at least before he goes for the emotional jugular. In his time there was probably a zany cult of Discord or something. But again, I digress.
And interestingly, Laughter is an Element of Harmony. It's mostly by accident that he brings this about, but we do see a few fleeting moments between him and Pinkie, and it's easy to imagine a more innocuous fun side to him. Tempered with the need to flip civilization on its head, I suppose. If there's even a tiny part of him that connects from disharmony to harmony... well, you end up with a paradox befitting Discord.
Okay. Uh. So that has almost nothing to do with how hard it is to talk about Celestia and Luna's past, as further troubled by the fact that the show seems to be sliding about just a little loosely on its own timeline.
As much as I'd love to dismiss the Hearth's Warming pageant, it feels disrespectful and like it dilutes the bigger picture of the show. So, I'm going to find a way to make this whole thing work.
Until the inevitable 'how is babby alicorns made' episode comes out or something. *sob*
At least two updates this week. Hopefully more.
Well that made perfect sense *wink* now if you'll excuse my brain must go have a meltdown
Also its a fanfic it doesnt have to even touch on the shows main plot
I totally forgot a new series was coming, or, at least, I did when I started my story. I just try and stick closely-ish to cannon, but it's always a pain when a new series or episode of anything brings forth a new, big thing when a story is only partly finished. At least, I think that's what your getting at, in terms of Celestia and Luna.
I like to think that, after the Princesses defeated Sombra, that some of his dark magic infected Luna and enhanced her negative emotions, causing the creation of Nightmare Moon.
It's just a random fan theory, though.
The yin and yang nature of celestia and luna play a great deal into the nature of their age and time. You have the serene, the calm, still nature of celestia. At the counterpoint, luna is someone that knowledge is best in experience and lived, not learned as much. Yes, celestia does have the elements of a xanatos gambit master, but luna in her ways is the ultimate spanner in the works. In this synchronous disharmony, and all relationships for family and even love, work on chaotic factors, when you get to looking at it. Chaos itself is tempting, the 'what if' askance, but what stops people is that lack of ability to really change that, but look at discord, luna, even celestia, all three are perfect tempters of that insidious question. It isnt that discord, even sombra was truly evil, but both are the utter extremes of order and chaos. Control at any price, for sombra, and even in vanishing the realm, to keep its foes and looters away, until he, and his vision alone was in his hooves to shape again. And discords own nature, ever changing, you've done so well, and that is really it, change is neither good or bad, depending on how its shaped and grown. Done well, discord can easily be who he is by far, his own nature to clash against order is right, its in how he approaches this natural part of life that says good or evil. As for cannon, well, you've a proper rationalization to it, but remember, that history is written by the victors, and no victory is ever without cost. You are hearing such from the ponies that lived it, and an immortal life is by far, something as much blessing as curse, for a long memory is something that reminds you so much of all that you've lost if time permits it.
And pardon me again, for that massive wall of text, but i just recalled something in s3e2, that made me actually go 'oh beeep' as the talk reminded of a thing.
Her
Mentor
Star
Swirl
the Bearded--
The Greatest Sorcerer of the Pre-Classical Era!
498009 Star Swirl the Bearded. Who Luna knew personally. Or at least that was suggested by the Nightmare Night episode.
So, the younger sister Luna was around before the formation of Equestria which was long before her older sister's rule. I guess the two of them were around but not ruling yet?
My working theory was that they were ruling *Equestria* but it didn't have ponies in it yet, and they were shy to approach the ponies that migrated there at first. Also, that the end of the Hearth's Warming Eve story was the creation of the Elements of Harmony.
And yeah, that '1000 years ago' probably just means 'a really long time', except for Luna's return because they kept count of how many summer sun celebrations they'd had.
Hee. Maybe the elements of Harmony were created, Equestria was formed, and as a result Luna and Celestia ascended, and started flying around blasting monsters in the face and banishing all the evils of the world -- which is why they're all being set loose *now*. The spells were all cast at about the same time with about the same amount of power, so...
Meanwhile, Cadance got loose about 20 years earlier than the rest of the Crystal Empire, so she's not as old as you'd think for being the princess of a 1000-year-old empire because she spent lots of time in stasis. Or maybe she got de-aged just like Luna.
I just watched season 3 episode 1, and so I made up mind.
I find it lack of explanation why Kind Sobra is immortal ( Nightmare Moon was Luna who spent 1000 years on the moon, but she was Alicorn, immortal or very long living ), Discord was spirit of Chaos so he is practicaly a force of nature and can not die, can be only sealed away, Queen of CHangelings can be a special long living breed who can use huge ammound of love as a hive ruler, so with love buff she defeated Celestia.
However what is with Sobra, first iff, he is Unicorn, I mean, not Alicorn, not spirit, not a special breed, he was just a Unicorn, and even Twilight, the strongest Unicorn in Equestria ( and very durable I must say ), can die like a normal Pony.
And here we get Sombra, a Unicron, who for who know what reason, gained power of darkness to control hudreds of ponies, gained some sort of immortality, and so much power that 2 Alicorns together could not kill him and had to seal him away ( I bet even Celestia would be killed, so why Sobra had to be sealed ).
Did Sobra gained immortality because he study power of darkness, and if so, why he was only one who got it, I realy would like to have far more backstory of Sobra, why he gained so huge power, why he was immortal, why he could not be killed, did he was responsible for Luna coruption ?
I personaly just not like the idea that a normal Unicorn all of the sudden gained power to take over the world, do he was some sort of pony mutant or what ?
Also another think, Celestia just said to Luna " please do not go there, lets mane 6 risk they lives without any help ", they so much know we want to see Luna in action and just laught in our face by doing everythink they can to not let her do anythink, no wonder Luna was so pissed off when Twilight had to go on adventure without her ( or they just tryed to show everyone, " why you all like Luna, she is night, she is dark, she iwas evil, and when Celestia support Twilight, she just give her a mean look " ).
And I noticed another think, from what Celestia said in the beggining, this mission was another trail for mane 6 to make tham prepeared for some kind of super dangerfoul dissaster what is about to happen ( like sending heroes on adventure so they can gain level to beat final boss ), however if they would fall, mane 6 would die, Cadence would die, SHinning armor would die, crystal empire would be once again enslaved, and Equestria would probably got thamself into a bit war, so practicaly Celestia and Luna could go there, beat out Sobra, and yet they risked everythink in a big gamble just to make mane 6 gain some experience.
It just happen to much ( Twilight go without any info to get friends and cure Luna from Nightmare Moon, and if it was not for Nightmare good nature, she would just enter library and kill everyone before they even went on adventure ). next she send mane 6 to deal with dragon, and they almost died under rock avalange and were eaten by dragon.
Than Celestia send mane 6 to get back elements what Discord stolen, so they can be easy targerted by Discord ( do it would be so hard to send 500 soldiers to search for elements, wake up Luna so that together with Celestia, they would protect mane 6 until elements are gathered )..
To deal with Chrysalis mane 6 once again had to fight army of changelings and get captured, only because Celestia screwed up ( they did not even made the fight between Celestia and Chrysalis epic ), and all of Equestria military did not helped, they just got PWNed off screen.
And now Celestia do not let Luna or army of guards to assist mane 6, meh, she did not even let tham take elements of charmony with tham, come on, they are element bearers, not super heroes.
The think what I find annoying in this show is that mane 6 have to do all dirty work alown everytime, never get help from Celestia, Luna is alwais keep out of this, never Celestia send any soldiers to help tham, no one ever protect tham from shadows so they wont die ( what would lead to Equestria doom ), I so much wish, so much wish that Celestia and Luna and meaby some royal gaurds would for a change assist mane 6 in they suicude missions, and meaby give some backstory to villans and princesses, because the impression they leave right now is just that Celestia is a total looser and idiot with a incompetent army, so she never get involved to not embarase herself, and as result, she risk mane 6 in a gamble everytime, and yet act like all her decysions are wise and make complite sense.
Lets face it, they made Celestia act like she eat winsdom from 1000 years, when in reality they make her do illogilal decysions and mistakes all the time, and were to lazy to let her or Luna have some cool screen time ( do not get me wrong, I realy like mane 6 adventures, but from what I see tham, they are element bearers, the only ones what can KO the most powerful villans in the world, but yet they are normal ponies what can die easy, and they deserve assistance and protection considering how totaly importand they are for ponykind survival ).
If Equestria would not have any military forces and princesses would be powerless, I bet that mane 6 would have to protect Eqestria exacly the same way as they were doing it in the show, I just fell that they are fighting complitly alown, they are alown again every disaster that happen, and I d not buy the idea that Celestia do it so that they do not need relly on her help ( because she never help ).
My advice: Don't overthink things too much. Don't overcomplicate things. You know that the longer the show runs, the more history will be added to the canon. You can either try to alter your story concept every time new history, important current events, or a new villain is introduced and cram all of those things in, or you can write things as originally planned, ignoring the canon's history unless it directly and affects your story in a meaningful way. Of course, you're using the Alternate Universe tag. Things are already heavily outside of the canon with this story! Who's to say that past events weren't different as well?
498119 We're thinking a lot of the same things. Princess Celestia is supposed to be extremely, maybe even supremely clever, and the pilot reads that way. The rest of the series isn't really delivering well on that, though.
499232
Well, it would be easy solved by applying more logic into her decysions, and the most logical think what no one will complain about or even praise would be tat Celestia send someone to protect mane 6 from hiding, or assist tham herself, or if Luna would assist tham, or meaby from time to time assist from background characters, wonderbolts for example, it would make far less plot holes and would be a realy wise decysion.
Like I said, I think that mane 6 adventures are made realy realy well, and mane 6 thamself are cool and fun, but they are terrible alown to face all dangers, and considering how importand they are ( they can KO super villans ) and how vunerable they are ( they are not super heroes, they are group of freidns working together, if one of tham go down, Equestria is doomed ), not assisting tham is what make Celestia seems so stupid and useless ( and when she assisted at the wedding, it have been made terrible way, we all expected epic fight, not a 15 secound round to get Celestia out of the way ), and why creators of MLP are so paranoid about keeping Luna out of the picture is somethink I will never understand.
You know, I like to think that the banner was different when Equestria was founded, so when Discord appeared, I think he change the banner (as a mock in to the ponies) since he "ruled" Equestria, and then when he was defeated by Celestia and Luna they changed the banner again and put their image in it. So Celestia and Luna's banner became the "real" in history books. Well at least, that's what I think, after all, the history it's always written by the winners.