My Argument For Fimfiction Thumbs Up/Thumbs Down Disabling · 9:14am Feb 5th, 2019
I made it clear how much I hated the gimmick from the very beginning, and this short rebuttal below was a response to a friend regarding their own opinion on the subject. I respect his and anyone elses' opinions. However, I'm putting my foot down regarding the subject in question:
"I must respectfully disagree on all points; I find the likes/dislike ratio a contradiction to what the fandom should be about, and an excuse for trolls to take advantage of. Criticism I accept when people comment on my stories, telling me what I've done wrong and offering suggestions for improvement rather than just leaving a dislike and keeping the writer wondering where they went wrong. Communication is key.
I find it's better for people to dive headfirst into a story by their own indulging and curiosity, rather than be driven away by likes and dislikes. The ratio gimmick is just discouraging to write; I don't write my stories to be judged, I write them for my own passion. My entertainment. It's up to people who bother taking a read and leaving comments, but in the end, what matters is what the writer wants to do. If people want to dislike a story, they can just say what they think's wrong and be done with it.
Leaving a down thumb on a story without any explanation isn't criticism. And not everyone can handle criticism; some write and read stories because they enjoy it, not to succumb under stress."
No one should feel expected of anything for writing their stories. Do them in your own time. Write them your own way. If people want to criticize they can just express what they think should be improved rather than leave you in the dark. Nothing will change if all readers do is leave a dislike without any clarification so the the author can learn.
Amen to that.
Count me in. Tis not a professional publishing house, yet some get on their high horse, booing down others' work (offered everypony for free), yet providing no actual criticism (constructive and helpful). Even then, every judgement is subjective...
I'd say, allowest them put thumbs up/down... but after leaving a comment ONLY. Although, tis can't eliminate inane comments like "Thou suck!" unfortunately. Yet that may provide some sort of protection against lazy "boo-neighers".
Preach brother, PREACH. ✊✊✊
Do it
I strongly agree with you. I read a bunch of stories years ago but recently I felt like reading them again because I loved then but when I found them they had a lot of dislikes and I wonder why people dislike these stories when they were really good.
5008391
Same. I feel it's just trolls. My first story stressed me out at first with dislikes coming left and right before many people gave me support. 😋
Just wait, someone's gonna come here and dislike EVERY comment here. 😝
I personally don't have a strong opinion one way or another. However I will refute one of the many good and well thought out points you made. The likes and dislike mechanic can be used for improvement. As I write I often experiment with different styles, ways, and even outright gimmicks to expand my own style. The like and dislike mechanic, when you look at those numbers alongside traffic data can give a good idea of what a writer can do successfully and what perhaps needs to be retooled or taken in another direction. The only other point I wish to make is that not everyone is comfortable criticizing another's work, either because of shyness, or a lack of faith in their own ability. Hell, sometimes I will drop a like on a story merely because I don't have time to shot out a reply. We all have busy lives, after all. But they do know what they dislike and like. So the mechanic when looked at over all written stories of a specific author can provide information and allows for a certain opportunity to self critique.
There will always be trolls, I personally love them, they make the cutest faces when they get so butt hurt over something stupid. But, as always I say this all with respect and acknowledge that you're opinion is just as valid as my own. Just wanted to weigh in myself.
5008396
Thank you for a respectful rebuttal. Though I can't bring myself to see the like/dislike ratio in any positive light, I could see why others prefer it. Have a nice day!
5008400
You have a nice day too. Thank you for a well thought out and respectful statement, it is always a joy to read such things.
5008404
Just here to help out the community. Love the Sombra/Radiant art! That's a canon ship in my main fic.
Just waiting for that 100th like, it's driving me BANANAS. ☺🙃☺🙃☺🙃
5008405
Yeah, I was Sombra for way to long in my own life. Fortunately my own Radiant Hope found me. Discord and Fluttershy works too.
5008417
I'm glad. One day I'll hope to find my own Twilight. XD
So very much this. There's occasions where I know why a story of mine has been downvoted, but there's plenty of others where I feel they've just been downvoted because the person responsible is being a jerk. I had a couple stories that were never downvoted for years, only to get one downvote each after I pointed it out in a journal. If that isn't evidence of someone being a jerk just for the sake of it, I don't know what is.
5008416
Hither, thou hast it now *insert generous Luna emote here*
5008466
😄/)😄/)😄/)😄/)
5008468
/)*(\
Now thou can hit the Good HiE group with thy story
5008393
Oh-oh, is that spot still open?
For anyone who gets a dislike moments after putting their story in a folder, say 'Aye'...
Aye.
5008492
I've actually meant trying this group: https://www.fimfiction.net/group/198207/the-good-hie-list
5008512
I know. It's been in Submissions for MONTHS.
*applauds* very, very well said
"I must respectfully disagree on all points." That's always a good way to start a response
And other people read them for their own entertainment. That's the whole point in sharing stuff online.
It's as much criticism as saying "l don't like your story." which is not constructive, but certainly criticism. With some stories, it would be faster to list what isn't wrong with it, rather than the other way round.
Tough. But it's like I said above, that's what you get, when you share your stuff with others, especially strangers, who might not care a whole lot about your feelings. Maybe grow a thicker skin? Or improve your writing so the praise/criticism ratio tilts more the other way?
I don't know how many low-effort/low-quality fics get uploaded here everyday, but from my gut feeling, it's a lot.
Having a like/dislike or any kind of rating system in place helps sift through the dregs and find the gems that are truly worth noticing, which would otherwise get buried in the trash. Featuring some stories on the front page is there for the same reason.
...
My original comment was somewhat longer, but my browser crashed while I was writing it, so I cut things short.
I also catched a few dislikes and sadly no comment indicating why they dislike.
But i guess they just dont like the concept or my particular writing style.
Just focus on writing and ignore dislikers if they dont give constructive criticism
brb, gonna go downvote your stories
I personally think that the entire rating thing, while a useful heuristic, isn't absolute and can often be quite misleading. I tend to perform my searches using the rating order, because I've liked stories with high rating more often than not... but that doesn't paint the whole story, does it.
For one, I feel (though cannot confirm this!) that it tends to bury stories that haven't had exposure yet, just because their ratios are all over the place. And to be perfectly honest, there's a number of stories I've really liked despite having an equal (or even unfavourable) Yay/Nay ratio.
Second... and this is, perhaps, the most important bit: a likes rating doesn't actually tell you much about the story itself, apart from the fact that many people (that may have tastes wildly different to yours) seem to have (dis)liked it. Like I said, it's been okay for me most of the time, but there were stories that seemed to have a dedicated following, but which I couldn't get through.
This, and some of the points made by OP, make me consider the score as more of a "warning flag", or "confirmation", and not much else. If I'm liking a story, a quick glance at the ratio will tell me if people are being dumb about it or not - and if I dislike it, the ratio will often reflect it. Though I'll take this moment to point out that I only downvote in specific situations - when a story is so technically poorly written that my eyes bleed, for example. If I don't like a story for the story itself, I simply refrain from voting altogether.
Now... I say all that, and I still order my results by rating. And this brings me to my counter-argument:
The rating is a tool, and one I suspect the website's technical backplane actually needs to function. It's a heuristic, which means that it'll be quick-and-dirty, and may not be accurate, but it sorta works. And it's much simpler to work out than some form of an ML algorithm for internally grading and matching stories based on what you've read, how far have you gotten into it, and how quickly you've done so (opposed to your usual reading speed).
In the end, I feel that you'll eventually find your own way to (i.e. stumble upon) the stories you'll cherish, and in the so-called "meantime" - it's a crutch. A crappy crutch, but a functional one nonetheless. And whether you like it or not, it's a metric that's useful, to some degree - and I feel that, by that merit alone, it should stay.
At least until we figure out a better way to do this. Machine Learning is making great strides, and if Fimfiction's admins are gathering the data on our reading habits (which I hope they do), they'll eventually be able to present us with an option to find "Stories we think you'll like".
As for judgement: if you post your story on a public space like this one, you really ought to know better than to not expect your work be judged. I'm not saying you should relish it - or fear it, for that matter - but you most definitely should expect it. If you're faint of heart, 'post' those stories to your drawer instead. I know this isn't fair, and I fear a number of stories I've really enjoyed probably wouldn't be around for me to enjoy if people did that more often, but... the moment you put it 'out there', it's 'out there' - for good or ill.
And as for the commentless downvotes... I actually feel the same way. Don't just crap on my carpet - engage me! Tell me what you didn't like, and what you disagreed with -- or just shout at me, whatever. Anything is better than just dumping a dislike and going your merry way without so much as an "it's crap". (Which is about as unhelpful, but at least there's that connection...)
Finally, there was a voice here (5010071) that said that we also take enjoyment from all this, and that I agree with. In the end, everyone here has something drawing them in, something they're looking for and finding here. In a way, the stories are just as much "ours" - the readers' - as they are "yours" - the authors'. I hope you can find soothing, at least, that regardless of the turbulence whenever any comes, we're all doing what we love and enjoying our time here - regardless of the side of this metaphorical fence we find ourselves on.
I just thought this would be a strong note to end this on. :-)
So in my (mostly) humble and (heavily) biased opinion, I find you do have a good argument but I will disagree in that a CAREFULLY watched like/dislike system can be the greatest boon to an author but it can also be their greatest for if not somewhat carefully monitored. A comment further down gave the idea of only allowing dislikes or likes if you comment but that might be too restrictive. A good system might might not be made and the current system if far from good but likes and dislikes are just part of fimfic. If they get removed many people will invetably get angry.
I think the like and dislike system is helpful because most people after reading a story they don't like won't spend the time to provide critique. Others can call it a "troll" or whatever you like but at the end of the day it provides a quick and easy way to give feedback to the author.
I myself don't spend as much time giving feedback when I read a story I don't like. I just dislike and move on. If you can't handle critique like that grow a thicker skin or ignore the rating system entirely and do what you love. That in my opinion is part of the learning process as well.
5414102
Thumbing down a story isn't criticism. A critique is addressing the issues you have with the story in question and offering solutions to improve.
5414231
It's a form of criticism, and a convenient one at that. If you find yourself with many down votes perhaps you should reread what you've written. I know it makes it harder because you aren't told specifically what someone didn't like or how the author of the story can improve but it's a quick and easy way to let the author know that someone somewhere didn't like what they just read.
5415130
We'll have to agree to disagree. Thumbing down a story doesn't strictly address the issues, the author needs to know where the problems lie so they can improve. And no, not every author will be able to find the issues without help.
Thumbing down a story isn't criticism, especially when it's hard to tell if it the thumb down is because of trolls, or legitimate issues.
maybe I'm a little late, but you're absolutely right