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On the Sliding Scale Of Idealism Vs. Cynicism, I like to think of myself as being idyllically cynical. (Patreon page.)

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Patreon Blog Takeover: Those Who Wage War Against Gods: life in the CDA's shadowfell. (Kai Creech) · 2:38am February 2nd

DC Comics, on their more egotistical days, will often claim to be creating something approaching a modern mythology.

Consider the implication. You're not reading a story about people in costumes fighting other people in different costumes: you are reading about gods. Marvel, on their better days, consists of people trying to retain their humanity despite their abilities: DC's bad ones are the times when someone effectively says 'I can move planets. Any population occupying them is an afterthought.' Under the dubious skills of the worst among the writers, all connection to normalcy vanishes. It's not a watchtower, it's Mount Olympus. And when such deities argue, do they truly care about what the thunder of their quarrel does to the world?

But sanity reasserts, usually in the form of a better writer taking over. Retcons flow. And the man in the red cape remembers that ultimately, he's a farm kid who thought a journalism major would be a good idea, and takes a moment for tending to his rooftop garden before going to bed. It's corn season and if he's going to have some with his supper, it'll be fresh.

Still... the company has its selling point, and goes back to it just often enough to get themselves into trouble. And said selling point is the reason for a lot of failures. There's very little human conflict in any number of DC movies because there aren't any humans involved, or even aliens with human hearts. The project which worked had to reach back into WWI to remind the main character of something very basic: in war, people die. Wonder Woman, to me, is an extremely mediocre superhero movie, especially because it goes directly for Olympus at the last -- but it's a very strong war film.

And then the next movie came out, and they lost it again. Conflict in the heavens, with no one noticing the shaking of the earth.

Let's look at that from another angle. Let's stand on the ground and look up.

DC also tries this out every so often, and they usually call it 'Earth-3.' In the multiverse's index, it's the world where the moral compass is inverted. The heroes are villains, the villains are heroes, and when you start to think about how many sheer villains you usually get, it's kind of a wonder that they haven't closed out the local inverted bad guy stock in about ten minutes --

-- until you start looking at what they're up against.

There are some very powerful villains in the main timeline, and you'd think they'd make for equally potent heroes. But they are up against gods. Everything they can bring to bear is ultimately a mortal being trying to beat down mythology. Take the little restrictions off those former heroes -- like the whole 'code against killing' thing -- and the villains who never were will start to fall in droves.

Entire graveyards aren't filled with the remains of the inverted. There generally isn't enough left to bury.

In a previous blog, we talked about forgiving the actions of antagonists, especially if it would bring about reform. There's a part of the human psyche which does want everyone to get along (although it's not a universal one). We want things to get better. We want the mad to be cured, the injured healed, and the world to improve. The moment both DC and Marvel first anger us is frequently the instant when we realize nothing will ever truly change, that all poles tilt towards the negative, and the bad guy always comes back to do something still worse -- without changing, reforming, or even suffering any true punishment: for details, see the clown prince of crime himself, yesterday, today, and for as long as publication goes on.

But still... we dream. We think that the villain could be a hero, if only things were different. And that's what the alternate universes are for. An episode of The Brave And The Bold had Bruce find proof that a mind which was strong enough to be merely bent instead of broken... that might create a hero. You could argue that the knowledge pained him.

If things were different... if the compass was truly flipped... then there would be new heroes.

But they wouldn't be fighting mere villains.

Imagine a philanthropist.

He started as an inventor, one who managed to hang onto his own patents. In time, his intelligence created one of the most successful corporations in the world -- one which truly tries to do good, although it's gotten large enough that he has trouble keeping an eye on the whole thing. He still spends time in the lab. Until recently, he was working on clean energy sources. Someone brought him a sample of a new compound which had been found in a meteor, one which created light and heat from within, along with energies stranger still. He spent a few weeks breaking it down before deciding that unless he found a true purpose for the stuff, all the green mineral was truly good for was giving people cancer.

He tries to do good. He has more money than he will ever need, at least for the needs of one man. He donates to charities. Sometimes he gives directly to the recipients because he's learned that charities can take more than operating costs. He brings forth his clean energy and runs directly into the thorns of the coal lobby, gets told he's only trying to deprive people of their livelihood. When he points out that he offered retraining and employment, they say he's destroying a culture. His attempts to distribute medicine are fought by insurance companies. Famine relief shipments get stolen by terrorists, and the army marches on the hunger of someone else's stomach.

He knows he can help the world -- if only the world would let him. But he's getting frustrated. No matter how good his actions are, how much he's truly trying to help, there's always something in the way. He wishes there was something else he could do. Focusing his efforts on a single city, creating a model for others... even that creates trouble. There's a new personality in the media, one who seemingly only exists to berate him. A so-called reporter who invents his own facts and preaches them to an unquestioning audience while his glasses steam with rage.

Then the deaths start.

He puts up a new building: low-cost housing. Something takes apart the foundation from below -- after it's already occupied. He's able to prove in court that it wasn't the design (although that media personality is still lying about it), nothing his company did -- but thousands died in the collapse. Nothing he can spend brings them back. Then his labs are broken into. Charities he supports find their donations vanishing before they can reach the banks. The farms he created to grow famine relief food are razed by fire.

He doesn't know what's going on. He can only stand fast against the storm, even while more and more people seem to be listening to the words which accuse him of being responsible. One night, the pain sends him back into the lab, because it's where he started, where he can truly think. It's the same night when something with the power of a living fusion reactor becomes sick of the game and reveals itself, because it'll be so much quicker to just kill him directly. It closes in, a fist which can break a mountain pulls back as the philanthropist lies within what remains of his true home, huddled against the broken vault --

-- and green glow attacks the intruder. Streams through the cracks, goes into its skin and blood. It's never known pain. It doesn't know how to deal with the experience. It retreats, if only for now.

The inventor forces himself to stand, counts his broken ribs, and realizes it will take a miracle for the world to survive.

Because if the villains are now the heroes, then what they fight still remains gods.

I wanted a high school AU. I actually wanted it a long time before DC put together that one promotional image for an animated series which, perhaps thankfully, never came about. But the idea was always there: the majority of the bat's rogue's gallery was still in their youth, and some of them were going to school together. Ultimately, that led to a basketball player whose luck had gone critically right and wrong in the same instant. The one who'd lost everything, up against the man who had everything. And in the aspect of that fight alone, for his world... Jack is the lucky one. He's up against a god of economics. The control freak who lightly brushes against a lever and watches the shifting gears pulp flesh between them. Someone who can afford not just weapons, but something approaching an army to carry them. But if Jack or his other can ever reach the actual man... then that's what he might find. Something which is still, at least in biology, human.

But this world is just at the start of its heroic age -- if that's what you want to call the time when the fatalities begin to mount. Most of what's happening out there is rumors and urban legends and footage on YouTube which must have been faked. He knows that some of those stories are true -- and that others have struggles greater than his own.

Fish are going extinct. The one below the waves is secretly controlling them in ways which send them to their deaths, believing the humans can't survive without the oceans -- and then he amplifies that by trying to crack open a nuclear sub, letting the radiation poison the waters. One person thinks he knows what's going on. He's got an experimental diving suit, a mini-sub, and what he's sure is going to be a very short lifespan.

Someone believes men have no right to free will, and the golden bindings she wraps them in enforce those beliefs. She can kick through steel and move fast enough to block bullets. A mad god, one who killed the spellcaster that tried to stop her -- but not before the master of changing worked one last enchantment. Now a girl who's just barely keeping control over the resulting lycanthropy is attempting to finish the work. She typically arrives just in time to watch the victims tear out their own throats.

There's an empath. He can detect, influence, sometimes distort the feelings of others. He hates himself for it and has spent his life shutting down his own abilities, simply so he can know every reaction around him is an honest one. And then he finds the abomination which deliberately cut half of its own mind out to replace it with something that didn't feel at all. Actually, that's a lie. It has one feeling left. It truly enjoys killing, and that's why it also cut off its own limbs: more space for weapons.

It gets worse than that. All over the world, it gets worse. And those who struggle against the gods are fighting single members of the pantheon. If these desperate heroes could come together, they might be able to do more -- but what if their foes also united? What could stand against that kind of power?

That is Jack's world. And you could argue that it's a world whose doomsday clock is now set at one second to midnight.

Those who are heroes elsewhere don't hold that status here. But they still have their powers. All of them, and everything which ever held back the ways in which that hideous strength was used is gone. And to stand against them? People. People with tricks, edges, a few things which might provide short-term survival if only everything went right --

-- people who are fighting the gods.

The pantheon may gather. And when it begins to argue, the world will crack.

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Comments ( 40 )

Ok so I recognize the heroes turned villains but who is the empath that is trying to fight cyborg?


Brother Blood.

It's gonna be some work to get him into a version of that name.

Yeah, this Earth doesn't seem like it'll be harboring life for much longer. And that's putting aside the cosmic Gestapo whose emerald jackboots echo from one end of the universe to the other. I get the feeling that the Mogo of this universe does socialize, for a very twisted definition of the term.

Suffice to say, Bree may not be the only multiversal refugee Equestria will harbor in the near future.

Makes you wonder about the other lantern corps though, and if any of them can help? Zod might be able to come, along with Braniac.

If that all fails, the heroes can always try to get the villains to kill each other off, leaving fewer for them to take on themselves. The ability to look beyond themselves and seek the good of others is honestly one of their greatest advantages.

Once upon a time, I wrote a loooong forum post on a Lex Luthor story that I would have loved to have seen.

I'm re-posting it here in all it's glory.

Lex Luthor, every day, helps more people than Superman.

Every. Single. Day.

Just opened a factory near Detroit. It's employing nearly 10,000 people-and the trickle-down from it is probably going to employ about 30,000 more. People are going to be able to pay their bills, pay for vacations, send their kids to college, and a thousand and one other things that make life just a little bit better. Could have opened the factory up in Thailand or China. Hell, the profit margin on it and a lot of LexCorp projects is small (by the standards of most CEOs), but Lex always had a long-term view. Better to accept a 2% profit margin that can keep, than the loot and pillage that a lot of the so called "Captains of Wall Street" call "good business".

LexCorp has a HMO under it's own aegis that is rated one of the best in the world-emphasises preventive care, getting in early and keeping small things from becoming big things, and being just better. No other HMO does that, and that's why Lex Luthor does it. Solve small problems early, before they become big problems. That's how every LexCorp operation is run, from top to bottom-a middle manager in most LexCorp companies has more power than some senior VPs in Fortune 500 companies. Why? Because they're there and can see small problems before they become big problems. There's rewards and bonuses for guys that figure out solutions to problems that NOBODY knew about before they got there.

Yea, LexCorp has a cure for cancer. Not "a cure you have to keep taking and taking", a cure. For. Cancer. And, the FDA is still stuck in trials that will probably cause it to take another 10-15 years to get to market. LexCorp has a working AIDS vaccine-and the FDA is holding it up since the late-'90s. They have a practical space plane project-could have replaced the Space Shuttle ten years ago-and it's a question of who's fighting it more-the FAA, NASA, or the EPA. Batteries that could replace car engines? There's a reason why LexCorp has a HUGE numbers of lawyers on retainer-pretty much every auto maker on the planet is suing them either directly or through sock puppets.

Lex Luthor doesn't care. He makes the world better, one day and one gadget at a time. There are third-world shitholes that have clean water because LexCorp distributed solar-powered water cleaners. There's sweat equity programs that LexCorp's charity groups run in countries that has probably increased the average calorie intake of the locals by 25%. And, it's sustainable. And better for the enviroment because they don't have to clear as much land and the processes and crops they use are easier on the soil.

Is LexCorp into military programs? Sure. Big money maker-and better that American soldiers have body armor that can stop AK rounds dead (on the torso and head, they're trying to improve the arm and leg protection) than not. LexCorp came out with the first "official" MWAP package for Humvees-and it's still better than the "official" version. They have a new sniper rifle that is guaranteed to kill every single insurgent motherfucker in a room in less than ten seconds-and not even get a drop of blood on a single hostage. Replacement limbs and eyes for soldiers that are as good-if not better-than the originals. And produced at cost for the US military. The only reason they haven't sold the Army powered armor is that it's still too expensive to deploy for general production. Give him ten years-five if he can figure out how to make that new processor idea of his work.

Police? LexCorp produces police cars, body armor, and tasers. They produce drug tests and lab gear that makes CSI techs have orgasms just thinking about them. They've been developing pattern recognition and social analysis tools that allow for pro-active policing of areas. New York deployed it-and the crime rate went down by nearly 50% in the first six months. Because crooks were getting arrested within hours of committing crimes. And, they're working on tools and programs to help keep prisoners out of jail when they get in-education, drug treatment, training, therapy, the works. Why? Solving small problems prevents big ones.

LexCorp is also one of the biggest companies behind charter schools. Why? "Every monopoly needs competition," Lex Luthor said, when he was asked about his effort in charter school programs. In the worst areas of the countries-and the attendance and GPAs and general satisfaction with class programs went up. With less money-and much more challenging curriculum. Kids are graduating high school from LexCorp schools that can pretty much test out of two of the four years of a four year college program. At Stanford.

Lex Luthor has no life. He is literally smarter than 99% than the entire world. He plays chess with Bruce Wayne every time he goes into Gotham-and can hold his own. He lavishes money on artists and writers and musicians that he likes-because there are so few of them. The rest bore him to tears, literally. Women? The ones that aren't gold diggers and want something from him, or have other issues, are so few as to be non-existent (he's still looking, tho-finding somebody that is as smart and as attractive and as attentive of him would be a Godsend...). Doesn't like to drink-oh, he'll have a drink or three to unwind, but he is not into getting drunk to get drunk. Or do drugs or smoke or whatever. Doesn't have any appeal. Besides, exercise and learning something new is a much better endorphin rush.

Every day, Lex Luthor makes the world better.

But, every single day, he reads the paper and on the front page? Superman rescuing a little girl and a kitten from a burning tree. Where you read between the lines that the girl didn't keep enough control of the cat-and lit the tree on fire trying to get the cat out. And, it's a really ugly kitten.

Superman that has technology that makes what Lex Luthor is working on look like Og the caveman banging two rocks together-and probably could make the world wonderful. But, Superman won't share it with anybody. Says we're not ready. Of course we aren't-just like children aren't ready to walk. Until they get up on their feet and walk, after falling down and hurting themselves. Sometimes badly. But, we get up and try again. And again. And again.

And, Superman believes he knows better than us. There's a reason why Lex Luthor loves kids-they tell him exactly what they think and they've surprised him on occasion. He knows he's the most brilliant person in the room-but he isn't God. Doesn't want to be-the hours and the responsibilities so outweigh the benefits. And, this Superman, this...alien that sets himself apart from us? Says he knows the best for us, but won't tell us why? Or how?

Superman comes to his cell and asks why he hasn't made a cure for cancer. And, he assumes that the thought creates the deed-and not the thousands and thousands of other cogs that turn the wheel that eventually create the goal.

Lex Luthor knows now why Lucifer rebelled against God. Because any dictatorship-no matter how fuzzy-blanket warm it is-must be burned down to the ground. Humans should be free-even free to utterly fuck up on occasion, as long as somebody can clean the mess up. Lex Luthor understand the reason why the expression of "If you encounter the Buddha on the road, kill him!" exists-Superman isn't a God, merely (for values of "merely") mortal. But, he acts like a God to the humans around him.

And, what is Man if not to strike down somebody that proclaims that they are God?

Well, the one edge the good guys typically have is that they are willing to band together. Bad guys, not so much. They've got to be the Head Honcho.
Start about 9 minutes in


He plays chess with Bruce Wayne every time he goes into Gotham— and can hold his own.

I've always imagined that Batman, despite being Batman, is really bad at chess. I just think it's a funny image.

Anyway, I am also onboard with emphasizing LexCorp being a good company, and I've always really liked the idea that Luthor has a point with how people see Superman. It gives his actions weight and when he snaps and stops being right he becomes a tragic figure and a part of us has trouble watching him destroy himself.

"If you encounter the Buddha on the road, kill him!" exists-Superman isn't a God, merely (for values of "merely") mortal. But, he acts like a God to the humans around him.

And, what is Man if not to strike down somebody that proclaims that they are God?

Luthor doesn't seem to realize that people blindly follow people like him as much as Superman. Superman's power (metaphorical and physical) is just more visible.


It sounds like you could get about half of that from Grant Morrison's 12-issue miniseries All-Star Superman?


Actually, seeing as the Guardians and the Manhunters don't turn evil in this universe and they have power over the Lantern Corps, it's more likely that either the Green Lantern Corps don't exist or that the wider universe is (at least temporarily) at peace. At least in theory.

Come to think of it, most cosmic threats are absurdly dangerous and all the ones I can think of would be good now...

I think outer space might be safer than the Earth. Wow.:raritystarry:

this reminded me of a story: someone invented a bomb-proof suit, perfect for dealing with terrorist-style "IEDs"...but the Army TURNED HIM DOWN! WTF?!
last i heard, he was still trying to get SOME source of private funding!
it's amusing to note that his suit resembles the "Mjolnir" armor in the Halo video-games.

Are you sure his suit works? That doesn't sound super plausible.

He puts up a new building: low-cost housing. Something takes apart the foundation from below -- after it's already occupied. He's able to prove in court that it wasn't the design (although that media personality is still lying about it), nothing his company did -- but thousands died in the collapse.

this reminded me of one of the Honor Harrington novels, "flag in exile", where someone sabotages a building under construction, causing it to collapse...and kill a bunch of schoolkids who were visiting! and then the villain tries to kill Honor with a hand-launched SAM, then goes after him with a gun...and a high-ranked and world-famous priest jumps in the way! only when he recognizes the priest does the assassin realize how wrong he is, and he surrenders and confesses. finally putting the real villain out of power.

(coincidentally, a real terrorist attack, i think i was the infamous Oklahoma City Bombing, happened JUST after the author submitted the manuscript for that book and before it was published!)

I always liked the simple switcheroo in Stupor Powers with Punchline and (it's been a while) Justiciar?

And the idea of nonevil black manta is just bizarre. He'd presumably still have the "twenty tons of willpower in a ten pound bag" powerset.

And innocent Solomon Grundy? He's almost there already.
Edit: No, I think I have a winner. Responsible ecological activist and psychic Gorilla Grodd.

And seeing as part of the reason Gorilla City was hidden away was xenophobia, that might mean that Gorilla City is a publicly known part of the Earth with a seat on the U.N and everything.

I love comics.


But the idea was always there: the majority of the bat's rogue's gallery was still in their youth, and some of them were going to school together.

You might find this interesting, then. A comic in which the DC characters (and villains) are going to school together...

...primary school.

"The name was ironic, you see. What you kids would call 'an emo phase,' I'm the villain, the bad guy. The bloody brother, Cain slamming the rock down on Abel's forehead.

"But, now, I've seen what evil looks like. And, I know now that I exist forever in opposition to it.

"What does evil look like?

"It's empty. It's hungry. And, it knows it can never fill it's belly the way that it's doing things-but it still tries to, anyways. Because if it stopped doing what it did, it would have to do the one thing it can never do.

"Admit that it was wrong, that everything that it has done is wrong. Because, if it ever admitted that...what would be left?"

You look upon your counterpart with a loathing matched only by his own. “You are a fool!” The madman spits at you. “Do you know what you're giving up? Your world has already been brought to the brink by Superman—”

“Ultraman,” you correct automatically. He ignores you. You’re not sure he’s actually listening.

“—and you want to add another one to this mess? You can’t trust something like him.” He closes his eyes and brings himself back to the brink of rationality. “But with my help, there’s no end to what we could do! We could end this… Crime Syndicate, but why stop there? We could help your world, guide it to new heights, begin a new golden age of humanity!”

You sigh. “You know, in a lot of ways you're better than I am.”

That brought him grinding to a halt. The sheer notion that any Luthor from any Earth might admit to being second-best is enough to unsettle anyone. “You still have your company. People still believe in you, you’re running for president?” You shake your head. “You have so much power, and you still haven’t gotten anything you want done, have you?”

You haven’t seen your face when you get upset before. He draws himself up and positively sneers at you. “And you’ve done so much better? What do you have? Some halfway functional gadgets made in a garage from spit and gum?”

You turn away, looking out over his city that is still his city. It lacks many of the things yours does, such as burning fires and rubble. “You have no idea how delusional you are, do you? You fight a man whose chosen to hobble himself, and you still haven’t beaten him. Ultraman has leveled skyscrapers, nearly destroyed entire cities, but yours… He barely seems to fight at all by comparison. No matter how hard you push him, he won’t truly hurt anyone. And despite that, you always lose.” You turn back to face him, just to make sure you can see the look on his face. “Do you want to know why I went to the Justice League instead of you? I won’t tell you it’s because you're mad because I don’t think I could make you see it if I took out a flowchart and jammed it down your throat. No, it’s because at the end of the day, you don’t measure up.


Evil Flash would be hella difficult, but i could totally see a good Zoom trying to convince him to change this horrible place (assuming the point of contention remains the same).

Not quite.

That version of Lex Luthor is still the villain, even if he changes at the end.

The one I want? In any other story, if his opponent was anyone other than the Man Of Steel-whom has always asked himself if he has done too much to humanity, or if he hasn't done enough and wonders every day how he can be a good man-he would be the hero.

If nothing else, he's the guy that gets up morning after morning after decades of failures and attempts to pinch a loaf into the cheerios of a living god because he's there.


Take a moment, and imagine John Constantine in that universe.


Whelp, there goes the rest of my morning. Lucky I actually got some work done before breakfast...

Edit: Haha! #40 even has MLP in it! Nice!

Edit edit at halfwaythrough: Seriously, though, I REALLY like they way that's written, Supes and Wondy especially. (Also, its so crazy seeing children act more mature than actual adults most of the time and tht is AWESOME.)

There's a lot of room between "He has too much power," and "I have to kill him!" Any other story would need to take the step of making him not delusionally crazy.


And yet you've just stumbled onto the plot DC keeps using. Remember BvS?

The issue is...we've told all the low- to mid-hanging fruit stories at some point, and most of the fans know it.

We're nearly at the point of peak Batman or peak Superman, where whatever story we propose, the fans will not only know it's been told before, but what issue and the original was better.

(That, and BvS had a whole laundry list of issues. Everybody forgets that The Avengers came out after about six films to set up all the little bits of the universe and the characters. BvS had maybe two.)

Both Batman and Luthur were crazy in BvS

Darkseid is a Good Guy. So is Lobo.
The Fermi Paradox explained:
The Kilkenny Cat Fight has got nothing on Apokolips vs the Lantern Corps. Remember, in our universe, Green Lanterns aren't supposed to kill.

To some extent, Gotham is DC characters as kids (or at least the Bat villains)

Apocalypse and the Lantern Corps are on opposite sides now and they don't interact much.

OWLMAN: I built a world where no child would lose his parents to some punk with a gun!

RED HOOD: That's what's so funny! Because now... you're the one pulling the trigger.

Yeah, BUT the Lanterns aren't supposed to kill. Presumably, Darkseid thinks the Lanterns are too tough & Lanterns think going after Apokalips would be a bloodbath. If the Lanterns were willing to accept the collateral damage....IMO, there'd be a LOT to accept.

Once saw a science fact/speculation article....
Did you know:
It is believed that you pump a powerful enough X-ray Laser into a star for long enough, it will nova. Sort of like using an A-bomb to trigger an H-bomb. Take out any pesky planets that star might have

In a previous blog, we talked about forgiving the actions of antagonists, especially if it would bring about reform.

Oh hey, I decided to check up on that...

It looks like you were right.

I love reading about the Crime Syndicate in comics and seeing them in movies. They've had a issue showing what it was like when they took over the world fully and waged war on alien civilizations for fun.

I've always kind of doubted the idea of a Crime Syndicate working as a long term prospect though. Most top tier villains don't just want to get rich, they have goals like world domination that pit them against their fellow villains.

The only reason the Legion of Doom makes sense is because the superheroes are obviously more powerful than the villains, so Lex Luthor can swallow his pride in the short term if that's what it takes to get enough people together to take down Superman.

A working, long-term alliance of dark gods though...seems like it would fall apart pretty fast.

4787662 Lex Luthor, Man of Steel, came close. As did his portrayal in Smallville.

4787673 Probably pretty darn similar to Brother Night.

More Smallville than Luthor:Man Of Steel. The Lex Luthor that I want to see...he has to be the hero of another story, and that is what his tragedy is. The Luthor:Man of Steel one is has too many scenes where Luthor is still just a massive dick.

in myths though, gods don't actually spend that much time fighting each other and they like humans being around to worship them.

He's probably Doctor Gentle Heart.


That just means they need to, you know, hire an actual writer and not adapt a well-known comic run.

Or start adapting other DC products. Vertigo especially, given the modern climate a Transmetropolitan trilogy would sell like fire.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. I think that their big issue was eyes too big for their head, like a lot of other attempts to create "cinematic universes" that have been happening lately. I think a lot of people forget-or don't want to think about-that to get to The Avengers, we had two Iron Man movies, one (maybe two, if you count the original Hulk, like I do) Hulk movie, a Captain America movie, and a Thor movie. All of them were good movies on their own, and from that platform they added little details that all tied in at the end for The Avengers, creating the foundation of that movie with little bits of knowledge. And it paid off because enough cultural seepage had happened that we knew the main characters and had enough bits of the side characters to not need to be introduced to all of them.

But, the DCEU? To get to BvS, we had only one set-up film, Man of Steel. I actually liked Man of Steel, but I knew where the flaws were and there were so many issues in that film. Where the blame can be laid is something we can never know, but the flaws were there. In a sane universe, we would have had an Afflack Batman movie, Wonder Woman, and maybe an Aquaman movie before we got anywhere near BvS, and now they're paying the price.

It saddens me greatly that I cannot add comments to my Favourites shelf.

Yeah, the sad part is, if DC took their time and built the cinematic Justice League up properly, it would have been coming out in a few years, probably after the fourth Avengers movie: Prime time to scoop up all the superhero movie audiences that are just about burned out on Marvel.

I would stab someone for a Transmetropolitan Netflix Original series with a proper budget. With a rusty spoon for a movie trilogy.

oh, you made me think of an old book, "superman, last son of krypton", where an alien super-villain was planning on doing something that would disconnect an entire "arm" of the milky way galaxy from the rest...which would effectively make it outside the Guardians' jurisdiction! his next move would have been to raise an army, from Earth, to enslave everyone in that new mini-galaxy!
it took Superman and Lex Luthor, working TOGETHER, to stop him!

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