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Bad Horse

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The Last Jedi (no spoilers) · 6:50am Dec 19th, 2017

As resident curmudgeon, it's my duty to watch every eagerly-anticipated sequel to or remake of something made in the 1980s and tell you exactly why it sucks.

Star Wars: The Last Jedi has an audience rating of 56% on Rotten Tomatoes. That's tied with Phantom Menace for the lowest rating out of the entire franchise.

I have basically one thing to say...



Is it as good as the first three movies? Well, no. It has the frenetic pacing of a twenty-teens movie, some histrionic dialogue, and packs character arcs into one movie that should have been developed over at least two. It's trying to do something interesting with Kylo and Rei, but it's too rushed. The acting varies a lot, to the point of being distracting; when the "cracker" DJ was on together with Finn and Rose, I kept thinking, "Hey, why is there a real person on the set with the actors? Somebody get him off the stage!"

Snope or Stoke or whatever his name is, is a moustache-twirling vaudeville villain. "Mwa-haa-ha! We will snuff out the galaxy's HOOOPE!" Take it from me: that's not how real villains think. The movie has its flaws. I would LOVE to see a Star Wars movie that made the dark side appealing; this one made me repeatedly scratch my head at the villains and say "and what, exactly, do you get out of this?" If you're a villain just because the universe needs a villain, that's not villainy, it's charity work.

And I have my regular issues with the over-idealistic messages of recent fantasy. I get more than enough of that on Doctor Who. Now even horse races and meat-eating are bad.

But it's still a damn fine movie! Not so hot on grand dramatic arcs, but lots of finely executed moments, some minor characters who are more interesting than the MAIN characters from the prequels, some sublime cinematics, some great plot twists and surprises, and more humor than Star Wars has had since Empire Strikes Back.

IMHO. I may sober up in the morning.

Please, no spoilers in the comments.

POSTSCRIPT: I sobered up in the morning. This movie is good entertainment, but too much of the plot relies on stupidity--or actively advocates stupidity--for me to want to see it again.

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Comments ( 48 )

I actually loved it a lot. The Rey/Kylo stuff was awesome. And the visuals were spectacular. I'd say more, obviously, but... you know, spoilers. It might be my favorite.

It's a damned fine move, and a damn sight better then TFA. I'm really disappointed that JJ "Let's stuff every cool idea for a fight sequence or piece of mysterious bullshit I've had since the last screenplay I got to dump them on" Abrams is going to be back for IX.

You should know 4chan is organizing raiding parties on RT to downvote the movie because they are upset that having black people and asian people in space movies is gonna cause white genocide or some shit.

Yes, I have proof for this.

The longer I think about it, the more disappointed I am with it.
A good movie in many respects. A bad Star Wars movie in many respects.
Also bored me for the first hour and a half.

Can't wait to see it this weekend. I hope that now they played it safe with force awakens to make up for the prequels and tried some things out here they'll try some really ambitious stuff in the offyear movies and execute it better than rouge one. Or, it's disney, and we'll basically have more marvel formula movies that range from B- to B+. Not the worst fate.

The penguins and wolves were the best part of the movie to me.

Comment posted by Joural deleted Dec 19th, 2017

I’m disappointed but not surprised


Too bad we got screencaps of your boys bragging about downvote bombing it, pal.



It's not like we all just forgot about the last time when y'all were talking about LITTLE WHITE CUCK BALLS and how Rey carrying a staff was supposed to be evocative of her desire for big black dicks.

You may have learned from your mistakes this time and gone for a more subtle approach with plausible deniability, but we've caught up to you chan kiddies and your mischief.

Rotten Tomatoes is a bit weird. I have yet to hear an actual real person say anything really bad about the movie.





This is the thread where the 4chan white male teenagers are organizing the Disney Star Wars raid.

You will notice that they learned their lesson from the LITTLE WHITE CUCK BALL/REY LIKES BLACK DICKS fallout from last time.

They make a point of using diversionary tactics such as complaining about Rey being a Mary Sue, that the movie is poorly made (hmmmm...wonder who just said that here 🤔), or how Disney is pushing an SJW agenda, or just flat out saying Disney Killed Star Wars without going into specifics.

You can even see them begging each other not to jizz their pants too early by mentioning the movie being an attack on white males or being too multicultural.

Nice try, Joural. You've been exposed. You can't stop this! It's hard facts!

It's just a reprisal of the fallout with TFA. The usual suspects are upset about black people and white women in space, oh, and nazis are portrayed as bad guys so that's of course a concerted attack on all white males everywhere, and little white cuck balls abound and whatnot.

Reports are coming in that 4chan folks are coding bots to automatically post bad reviews on IMDB and other movie ranking websites.

Buckle up, kiddos. I don't think it's over yet.

You could have at least put that in a spoiler. It's not terribly hard you know. There is even a button now! Right up at the top. Granted, you could be fibbing, but either way, pretty tasteless.

Author Interviewer

I would LOVE to see a Star Wars movie that made the dark side appealing



Their intention is probably to ruin your enjoyment of the movie, so they won at their objective.
I haven't even seen this movie yet and I am 100% behind it as being THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME if it pisses off the reactionary white male contingent, and I'm saying that as a lifelong Star Wars fan who bought dozens of EU books and has the prequels+sequels at home.

Funny thing is, it gives them what they want. Rey is no longer with Finn, so Rey isn't cucking BB-8 and getting blacked, the White Male Space Nazis are winning at everything...and the white males on 4chan are still calling this Jew Wars and whatnot.

I was joking around with one of my friends that there should have been an interracial love scene like there was in Marvel's Jessica Jones, where Rey gets the D from, like, four huge, muscular black Resistance soldiers, while Finn and Poe and Leia watch in shock. Besides, that is my fetish. :rainbowlaugh:

Wouldn't be allowed in a family friendly space film, though.

4752927 Wish granted. Spoilers inbound (but tagged) :ajsmug:

The lightsaber fighting looked choreographed by an MMA fighter who may have taken a beginning swordplay class in college and didn't understand that half the fun of lightsabers is that a lightsaber is a hot knife and everything else is butter. I guess it was serviceable, but it was definitely not Star Wars. Lightsabers shouldn't stick in things :raritydespair: Virtually every action setpiece looked cool until I left the theatre and thought about it for five seconds. WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO DROP BOMBS IN SPACE AND WHY DO FUTURE BOMBS NOT ARM ON RELEASE LIKE COLD WAR BOMBS!??! :facehoof::twilightangry2: Did anyone notice the horse races arc's payoff was We sure hit those 0.00000001%ers where it hurts, right? I'll bet cleaning up all our wanton minor property damage would cost at least 2 hours of their personal income! Fight the power! Why were we supposed to feel like that was any kind of victory?

And, though maybe this is setting up something for the third movie, I would have to say the rebellion jumped the shark. Everything from Leia's replacement treating Po like a child to Rose keeping Finn from making the obviously necessary sacrifice play came off as authoritarian sit down, shut up, don't do anything Rebellious because Your Betters know Better, and all you can do is screw up on your own. I would expect that kind of messaging from the Empire or New Order, not the Rebels.

There were explosions. They even used the same actors as other Star Wars movies. But I'm gonna have to go out on a limb and say if I think about this movie for more than a second my brains start melting.

On the plus side, ice foxes were adorbs :heart:

I have to admit, the games are a bit better at it, as well as selling the "Evil for the sake of it" angle, since any game that lets you play with the force will generally let you go full ham with it if you want to.

It would be incorrect to say I don't care that things were spoiled, but it's not really ruined for me. I can enjoy spoiled things. It's the total discourtesy to people simply because he dislikes the thing that gets me.


Let's play a little game.

Here is the 4chan playbook for gaming TLJ'S score:

- Start calling the current trilogy as "the Disney fan fiction"
- Start delegitimizing their claim on the mythos by considering everything from Return of the Jedi as glorified fake expanded material
- Always mention that "Disney killed Star Wars". Make Tshirts and Hats with it. Create a grassroots movement that will spread like wildfire among the actually witty fan base.
- Always mention Mark Hamill's refusal to accept this Luke as canon luke
- Equate "Legends" and "EU" with what Disney is making right now.
- Say "its not real star wars even Lucas said so" as a catch phrase to counter-revolutionize youth
- Underline the SJW and Tumblerina aspects of characters
- Underline how there are no white male characters remaining and that Disney is murdering any semblance of them one by one
- Underline how most casting were done so according to Real World interests (affirmative action casting which is actually reverse racism)
- Underline how Bob Iger has presidential ambitions and his master plan is to create a generation of mindless drone youth even worse than the spoonfed fake liberalism of Obama era
- Underline how Hux has become (with TLJ) an allegory of Trump.
- Make SURE you always, ALWAYS mention how Rey is just a cornball Mary Sue, that ruffles their feathers that nothing else (because its true)

We can do it. Lets equate Disney with mediocrity, soullessness and their works as derivative terrible copies of the originals.


Now let's see if any of these critiques sound familiar.

CinemaScore audience exit polls, which can't be gamed by pepe posting chanlords, rate TLJ at a solid A.

Disney/Lucasfilm’s Star Wars: The Last Jedi showed its force with a $230.8Mopening at the international box office. The figure came in slightly higher than the Sunday estimate and combined with domestic, it puts the global launch at $450.8M.

All signs point to TLJ being not only Real Star Wars, but a big hit.

Better gird your loins, 4chan boys. SJW Wars is your future and you can't do anything about it.

Yes, I know this is why Drump won.


4752886 I deleted your comment because it was a massive spoiler. Nothing personal. Please use the spoiler tags to cover spoilers.


Rose keeping Finn from making the obviously necessary sacrifice play

That was my biggest problem with the entire movie. That's Doctor Who-level "never do the math" shit. Extreme idealist ideology. But see my post "Fantasy as deontology". Being stupid and rejecting reason was the intent.


Rey isn't cucking BB-8 and getting blacked

... I don't even know what that means.

Wouldn't be allowed in a family friendly space film, though.

Why isn't making a family family-friendly?

They are white male space nazis, though. Actually that is kind of irritating now that you've pointed it out, how all the new villains are white males, and none of the new heroes are. It didn't detract from the movie for me, though.

But the cute animals? All of them were white. Not one of those horse-creatures was black. I'm gonna write my congressperson.

4752985 I don't think Empire made the dark side appealing. It was all about power, but without giving any purpose to the power. You could base a much better story on Hitler (see my post "The fuehrer who loved only buildings"), because he thought he was doing the moral thing.

But the bottom line is that you can't do anything intelligent or even non-destructive with the naive idealistic Star Wars ontology of light vs. dark, where there's one right path and one wrong path, and some people just say "I'm gonna be a bad guy!"


Okay, so I didn't want to explain the 4chan lingo because it makes us all dumber the more we read and talk about their little hangups, but:

4chan kids are scared of this thing called 'cuckolding', in which a white man and a white woman invite a black penis-haver to have sex with the woman while the man watches. It's supposed to be Terrible and Bad and Demeaning and whatnot. I don't really know why, because the whole thing is entirely consensual and orchestrated by the white man and woman in question. They're in control of the whole setup.

It's a big thing in online pron these days. If you ever needed proof that porn does influence young teenage minds, just check out the 4chan kids who think this shit is something that happens in real life 24/7. I mean, I am black, but I don't have white women falling over my hips every time I go outside, contrary to what the 4chan kiddies think. It's probably because I am a lady. Or maybe I missed all of them? It is a mystery. Anyway.

In the real world, we call this a 'polyamorous relationship'. I was wisecracking with one of my white lady friends the other day that I wish I had that kind of charmed life, where I could lounge in luxury and watch her have sex with attractive, handsome black men. She shares my kink in that regard.

Basically, Rey's companion, BB-8, is supposed to be representative of the white man in this whole cuck relationship, taking a passive 'beta orbiting' role, while Rey gets blacked by Finn.

"Blacked" is another one of their dumb little terms. Comes from a famous Interracial porn website called Blacked.com, and it generally refers to the act of black/white interracial sex.

I'll let you figure out why 4chan kids know so much about interracial porn since they claim to hate the stuff. They say it's a Jewish plot to cause White Genocide. Seriously!

If you want to discuss things like this in further detail, you should come swing by FiMFiction's own Interracial Kink zone:


So this Christmas, the nice people at 4chan's /pol decided to give us this wonderful gift in the form of a photo collage/chart brut lamenting the increased diversity in the new Star Wars movie. And how it conditions young girls to handle "cuck-staffs".

Cuck-staff seems to be a code word for a black penis apparently.

That's not even the worst part. The anonymous pol user who made this also seems to be upset that he can't identify with any of the main characters because they are not white men (all the human characters except for Poe and Finn are white and most of the characters are male, but don't tell him that) and obviously the only stand in for people like him is ... the "Little White Cuck-Ball" known as BB-8.

Here is the masterpiece with added black bars to cover up pictures of black ughh cuck-staffs.

Moving on.

In the OT, the Imperials were all evil white people, too, so in that regard they're being totally fair to the OT. I gotta say, it would be interesting if there was, like, an evil black woman FO officer, though.

Snope or Stoke or whatever his name is, is a moustache-twirling vaudeville villain. "Mwa-haa-ha! We will snuff out the galaxy's HOOOPE!" Take it from me: that's not how real villains think. The movie has its flaws. I would LOVE to see a Star Wars movie that made the dark side appealing; this one made me repeatedly scratch my head at the villains and say "and what, exactly, do you get out of this?" If you're a villain just because the universe needs a villain, that's not villainy, it's charity work.

This troubles me. I haven't seen the movie yet, but I've seen the other Star Wars movies, and I always had the impression the Empire was this symbol for an authoritarian state for the sake of stability. It tried to dominate to enforce order, not to destroy. The Rebellion was the liberal counter force. The imperator wanted power for power's sake, and the Empire was the ideal tool with the fitting ideology to achieve that... that's what made him evil. He wasn't evil for evil's sake.

Anyway, I'll watch it eventually, maybe I'll like it after all. Also, re: the discussion going on in the comments; The target demographic of the movie is over 70% whites. The talent pool for the cast is over 70% whites as well. You have an almost all-evil white men cast. Rogue 1 was the same. To say there isn't a "fuck white males" agenda behind it at this point is a far stretch IMO.

Oh, and re:

Now even horse races and meat-eating are bad

I hate to be that vegan, but they are! :twilightsheepish:

I saw it twice, and the further I get away from it, the more conflicted I feel about what I saw? Like, it's hard to ignore the fact that there were parts of it which bored me senseless... just how, how do you make an alien casino planet seem like the dullest place in the universe?! It's the longest Star Wars movie, and man, it sure as heck feels like it in parts.

Then again, I also kinda love it for some of the risks it took (what the filmmakers did with Luke, and the way they treated Snoke with the EXACT level of respect that character deserved). I also appreciated the themes and ideas it's trying to explore (especially the revelation about Rey's parents), even if said exploration feels incredibly muddled on times. So, I dunno... 7/10 or something?


Oh, I actually saw that guy. Yeah, people told him to shut up and go away.

A screenshot of one guy saying he's deliberately cheating the system proves nothing, except one guy deliberately cheating the system. That guy on Facebook honestly sounds like he's just claiming credit for something that had nothing to do with him.

Also, consider that people upset with the movie are probably way more likely to leave a review than people who didn't. that's probably playing a huge role too.

Also, you know 4chan is, like, dozens of different communities, right? The people upset over a black dude were on /pol/, and they're probably too busy yelling about trump to care now. /tv/ just doesn't like bad movies. Hence why it's the television and movies board. Seriously, would you accuse someone who has been on reddit once of being a part of /r/kotakuinaction or /r/thedonald first thing? Because it's the same idea. Different communities doing different things. The only good thing about /pol/ is how easy they are to troll because they're always turbomad.


This thread is just people talking about how to describe the movie to turn people off watching it?

Anyways, please stop accusing me of being a racist without evidence. It's quite rude.


"white male contingent" oh I see. You blame things on groups based on race? So... the racist was you, all along?

Also, no, I wasn't trying to ruin the movie, I just didn't think about the spoiler tag at the time, and forgot to tag the two details that I really should have spoiler tagged. What's the old quote, "never attribute to malice what could be simple incompetence"? Basically the case. Not gonna repost it, since there's no real point. I feel like anyone who cares already knows that there's problems in the movie.

Author Interviewer

Oh. :B I just wanna shoot force lightning at fuckers, I thought that was appeal enough.


But the bottom line is that you can't do anything intelligent or even non-destructive with the naive idealistic Star Wars ontology of light vs. dark, where there's one right path and one wrong path, and some people just say "I'm gonna be a bad guy!"

Quote source makes this hilarious.


I wouldn't agree with that- Star Wars is all about the appeal of power and the pursuit of it. You don't make an active effort to use the Dark Side of the force, it comes upon you silently in response to your emotions and ambitions. The dark side is seductive. Any force-sensitive politician could succumb to the dark side, and that's basically what happened to Palpatine- if you want a real world counterpart, Palpatine could easily be compared to Putin. I think that Star Wars shows a very real kind of evil- the evil that is evil because they don't really care about your definition of morality, and their only real goal is their own advancement. The same kind of evil that allows dictators to rise and assassination to be seen as reasonable response to criticism. The prequels even managed to give Palpatine a fairly reasonable rise to power by claiming to be victimised by a group he puppeted, using the support that brought in to drive his career, which he in turn used to turn the group he was controlling into an ever greater threat, making him look better, until he could force his enemies to act against him, allowing him to paint them as traitors and seize ultimate power in the bargain. It's almost like a more pro-active version of how Hitler rose to power, but with slightly less murder. From there, all the genocide and destruction is just what's necessary to maintain power on that scale.

Hell, even the characters who want to be one of the "sith" do so because becoming a sith is a path to power. This kind of ruthless pursuit of power is in all kinds of literature and history.

I won't pretend star wars did this to make some kind of point, George isn't that smart, but it's not that far out there as far as evil motivations go, and well within the bounds of reality.

I would LOVE to see a Star Wars movie that made the dark side appealing;

I think this is kind of difficult to do because the Dark Side is linked so heavily with the Empire/First Order and its heavy use of Nazi icanography to show how bad they are.


I wouldn't agree with that- Star Wars is all about the appeal of power and the pursuit of it.

I meant that the appeal of the dark side was all about the desire for power. Anger was stressed as leading to the dark side, but anger isn't appealing. The only thing that would make someone actively seek out the dark side was the desire for power. And yet, Jedi did deliberately choose the dark side.

I think that Star Wars shows a very real kind of evil- the evil that is evil because they don't really care about your definition of morality, and their only real goal is their own advancement.

Whether someone cares about your definition of morality has no bearing on whether they're evil. You might be the evil one. "Their only goal is their own advancement" isn't, I think, a sufficient account of the Star Wars evil; there were cases where the use of the dark side was justified as getting the power to bring stability to the galaxy, tho I forget where exactly.

My objection to this view is that it is, itself, a great cause of evil. Anyone who believes that people who disagree with their morals, necessarily does so for their own advancement--and that's a whole lot of people--inevitably dehumanizes their opposition, which is the first step toward killing them.

The same kind of evil that allows dictators to rise and assassination to be seen as reasonable response to criticism.

But note assassination of dark Jedi is seen as reasonable. In other words--assassination of people who disagree with you is reasonable, given the Star Wars light/dark metaphysics.

Hell, even the characters who want to be one of the "sith" do so because becoming a sith is a path to power.

... that was the point I originally made, that you wrote this comment to dispute.

it's not that far out there as far as evil motivations go, and well within the bounds of reality.

It describes some existing evil motives, but is a very bad way to account for all evil, particularly when it gives us the conviction that we know what's evil and what isn't.

4753161 What? Oh--you think I'm a bad guy?

No, no. Don't believe everything you hear. See, my uncle's father's third cousin was Danish, and "Bad Horse" is Danish for "bath horse". Glad to clear that up.

Star Wars is: somebody got high watching the serials he watched as a kid, so he made a fanfic.

Same as Lord of The Rings and Friendship is Magic.


I've actually been looking at some old star wars stuff since writing this, so now I know what the Sith world view is, according to Knights of the Old Republic.

In contrast to the Jedi creed (there is no emotion, there is peace, there is no ignorance, there is knowledge, there is no passion, there is serenity, there is no chaos, there is harmony, there is no death, there is The Force), it is "Peace is a lie, there is only Passion, through Passion I gain Strength, through Strength, I gain Power, through Power, I gain Victory, through Victory, my chains are broken, The Force shall free me.

So my previous reply is apparently entirely nonsense.

That said- you should check out Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2, they're obsidian games so make sure to download the mods that fix them, but their story is all about this kind of contrast- the Sith, ideologically, are basically a counter-culture, opposing all the flaws in the Jedi ideology, which denies the basic humanity(or wook-inity, or whatever else) of their disciples, there's a huge chunk of the games devoted to Jedi Masters trying to understand why they so consistently fail to keep their students from "falling" to the Sith. I think you'd really enjoy it. #2 in particular is about that, #1 just reinforces the ideas in retrospect, and gives you context that #2 does a decent job of giving you itself.

4753896 That sounds more interesting. That's the sort of thing I was talking about when I said they could make the dark side more appealing.

I suggest them as well, though I must add that DS actions in Kotor 1 ends up more on the mustache twirling side, with 2 giving you a lot more nuance, but I suggest both in order as 2 ends up factoring a lot of 1.

Also, I think you will love HK-47.


Yeah, turns out Star Wars is way more deep if you don't ignore the Expanded Universe.

Also dumber, because have you SEEN the list of things wrong with Vader's suit? But deeper.

🎶 He rides across the nation / The thoroughbred of clean...

KOTOR is my jam. Shame the second one got rushed out the door. Even with fan mods to restore content, it's still a bit of a mess.

4753963 So there's an awful lot of background on the dark side and the light side in the EU, some but not all of which is inferrable or at least doesn't contradict the actual movies.

I'm going to start with Sithism, rather than the dark side, because Sithism is by far the most successful of the dark side ethos' within the context of the universe itself.

The most important part of the Sith Code, as relayed above by Joural above, is the last line: "The Force will free me."

Sithism is all about the individual at the expense of anyone or anything else. Their philosophy boils down to two things: that the strong deserve to rule the weak, and that the Dark Side of the Force is the most powerful part of it and so is part of the road to ultimate strength. The ultimate end goal of any Sith is to surpass all restraints or limits, to become an unmoved mover, Logos in the Christian sense of that word.

This is going to be an attractive philosophy for a lot of the people who have the ability to become space wizards, because it's all power but no responsibility; anything weaker than you serves you and you may do with it as you see fit. But it's also going to attract a lot of, shall we say, uncooperative narcissists and sociopaths. The Sith had a real problem in that every time they grew their numbers and started taking over, they'd start knifing each other in the back to wield power. They also had a real problem with many weaker Sith banding together to defeat stronger Sith before inevitably fighting among themselves. Sith purists didn't like that; weak groups tearing down strong individuals runs contrary to their perception of how the world should work. And on a more practical level it meant the Jedi kept whipping their ass.

Enter Darth Bane.

The whole "always two there are, a master and an apprentice" thing from the prequels? Bane came up with that. Bane was unusual among Sith Lords in that he believed the philosophy, the Sith Code, was more important than any individual Sith; he believed in something outside himself.

The idea behind the Rule of Two was that the senior Sith Lord would make himself as powerful as he could... but that he had a responsibility to Sithism to find an apprentice who could surpass him. He would pour all his power and wisdom into that apprentice, who would demonstrate mastery by betraying and killing his master successfully before repeating the cycle. (If he failed at this, it meant he either wasn't strong enough or wasn't wise enough; part of Sith wisdom is picking the right time to strike.) In this way, the Sith would grow more and more powerful. Bane was very explicit about this; the preamble to his written works flat-out states " one day, your apprentice WILL kill you. If you don't have the stomach to face that, you're not a REAL Sith and you're doing a shitty job."

There would be no more giant armies of Sith who would fight among themselves; all the power would be concentrated in a single point that was honed ever sharper.

Sheev Palpatine, Darth Sidious, is part of that secret, unbroken lineage that stretches all the way back to Bane.

There is an argument to be made that Palpatine is actually a bad Sith Lord, and views himself as the Ultimate Sith and so has no need to nurture a stronger, more powerful apprentice. Who could be more powerful than he is, after all? You'll notice Palpatine is always very, very eager to trade in for the latest model. This isn't canon or anything; it's just something to consider.

That's Sithism. It isn't synonymous with the dark side, there are other dark side traditions, but you have to look at the non-movie sources.

In the purest context of the movies, just the movies and nothing else, the only thing the dark side has going for it is raw power. The Jedi and the light side spend their lives in service; to each other, to the galaxy, to the Force. They might be bad at it (the Jedi Order at the time of the prequels was really messed up, as many people have pointed out) but their idea, their aspiration, is to serve all others and thereby serve the Force. The dark side lets you serve yourself.

Palpatine, Vader, Snoke, and Ren all display this trait at times, Ren and Vader especially; Ren has some very, very strong ideas about what he wants his life to be like and the galaxy to look like, doesn't consider anything outside those goals to have any moral weight or indeed moral consequence, and pursues them with the Force as his ally. Vader is initially drawn to the dark side because of his desire to save his wife, but because of how SHE makes HIM feel; HER feelings on the matter and on what he might do in her name are not relevant. But it's very clear that another huge factor is that Anakin thinks he's the hottest, most baddest baddass to ever draw a lightsaber, but that the Jedi aren't ever gonna give him the recognition he deserves.

(Sidebar: Anakin Skywalker had the political and moral sense of a six-year-old. During the Clone Wars, when he tried to explain to his own apprentice why the Republic was right and the Seperatists were not, basically told her "because everyone I care about and respect is on the side of the Republic, therefor they must be right.")

If you're interested in current-canon non-Sith darksiders, or even a more in-depth look at the Sith, what you want is The Clone Wars, which aired from 2008 to 2014. The series can be uneven; it has amazingly high highs and utterly low lows, and it suffers from its introductory movie being... quite bad.

4754779 Thanks for the explanation! I don't think it sounds very plausible, but it's an interesting thought-experiment.

I think that the ethical systems of Star Wars must flow from its dark/light dichotomy, rather than the other way around. It would also be an interesting intellectual enterprise to show a religion in Star Wars which taught that the world was not divided into the good and the evil, and that the dark/light dichotomy was false and dangerous--only in that world, this religion is messed up because it's factually wrong.

Not an exercise I'm going to do, though. People would take it seriously as describing our reality.

I've been thinking about Snoke- I don't think he's terribly bad as a villain. Wanting to destroy your enemy's hope is just fighting the morale battle, and he's decidedly a tyrant. On top of that, in those scenes he's either trying to impress or demoralize. I'm not a fan of where that went, but it was mostly fine for a tyrant who wants to bring the galaxy under his command. It would have been nice to learn more about him, however- that's a big problem the movie has, failing to capitalise on fan curiosity and hype effectively- nearly every mystery I was interested in going in turned out to be boring nothing, with perhaps the sole exception of Phasma, who managed to be everything I wanted her to be, but ended up dissapointing me right at the end.

On some level, The Last Jedi feels like they accidentally released the third movie second, honestly. The spent a good chunk of the movie wrapping up plot threads, but didn't unravel very many new ones for me to tug on.

I also wasn't a fan of lacking continuity- it got really blatant in a few scenes, and it made me upset that they chose such a good environ for the final confrontation if they weren't going to use it to track he storytelling and flow of the fight. In some scenes they seemed to forget that they had already shown racks of bombs emptying out of the hold, and so showed them full, while in others the film makers showed they'd surrender to Dirty Harry and his empty revolver.

I really like the rey/kylo dynamic, it was just cartoony enough to feel properly Star Wars, but they missed some strong opportunities to use it, in my mind. The movie suffers from not knowing which story it wants to tell- it remembers that Episode V did simultaneous stories, and so tries to tell three stories at the same time, but ends up bungling each of them, atleast partially from a lack of proper focus.

I may have been over cautious with my spoiler tags. Whatever.


Another thing to consider is that the Sith, as a counter-movement that split from the Jedi, typically recruit failed jedi students. Also remember that the jedi method of ensuring purity of spirit and purpose is to reject all attachment, something people, generally, are not capable of. Once you're ejected from the Jedi, you have two options if you wish to advance with the force- pursue more knowledge, and risk losing yourself to the dark side due to the flaws that got you kicked out in the first place(the dark side is always seductive, always offering what you want and almost have but can't quite grasp), or embrace the dark, join the Sith, and experience a new way. A handful of Jedi Masters later went on to become Sith Masters, in a quest to perfect the Jedi Code by bolstering its weaknesses- and, in so doing, they became unable to capture the 'purity' they once held, because to truly embrace the Sith teachings is to utterly reject the Jedi.

And then there's guys like Darth Devan, who was just cold and calculating and did what he needed to in order to protect the Republic, but was labelled a Sith for being willing to use the Dark Side and sacrifice planets to free sectors.

It should also be noted that you literally need Dark Side force users around to balance the Light. So Snoke is- on some level- LITERALLY a villain because the universe needs there to be one(Note that he and Luke die at the same time?). Figure that out. The only way to avoid the Sith is to have all force users be morally neutral. SOMEHOW.


So Snoke is- on some level- LITERALLY a villain because the universe needs there to be one(Note that he and Luke die at the same time?). Figure that out. The only way to avoid the Sith is to have all force users be morally neutral. SOMEHOW.

So, if the Jedi all kill themselves, the Sith will die?
I wonder if the final movie will have both Jedi and Sith all eliminated.


It'd be interesting- but pretty much impossible to maintain. Someone's gonna find an ancient text or just learn to tap into the force on their own, and then you've got a force user accessing either the dark or the light, and so its inverse has to rise to balance the force. Like Luke says in the movie- Where there is light, there is also Darkness. Hell, Snoke references this directly- he tells Kylo that his 'opposite in the force' had to rise to meet him.

I'm not actually sure it's possible for mortal force users to use the force without using either light or dark, either. I suppose you'd have to just use both equally.

Chorus line of marching stormtroopers, to the tune of the "Empire" theme:

Porg! Porg! Porg!
Lovely Porg!
Wonderful Porg!
Porg! Porg! Porg!
Lovely Porg!
Wonderful Porg!


Also: Empire theme? Check out the ironic "Music-box" motif here--

And then the pipe organ! And THEN the trumpets! Somebody needs to score all the lightsaber duels in "Star Wars" to this.

Never thought I’d learn this much about Star Wars on a My Little Pony fanfiction site.

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