Why Fallout: Equestria is Worth Reading Even if you Hate it · 9:35pm Oct 20th, 2012
[Published on fimfiction, Oct. 20, 2012]
TL;DR:
Other fantasies fall into two categories: Idealistic stories that ask, "Wouldn't it be nice if the world where a place where good conquered over evil and we could have a happy ending?" and "realistic" stories that say, "The world is an unjust and unforgiving place, and always will be." The first gives its characters only false moral dilemmas that have one obvious correct choice. The second gives them false moral dilemmas which don't actually matter, because both choices are awful along the same dimensions, and serve only to damn the world for its cruelty.
Fallout: Equestria instead says, "The world is an unjust place, but we CAN have some good times, if we play by its rules, think carefully, and act pragmatically." It gives its characters REAL moral dilemmas, and leaves it up to the readers to make their own judgements about them.
Why? Why cross ponies with Fallout?
Most fantasy adheres to the Lord of the Rings / bad World War II movie theory of how wars start: Hobbits and Englishmen are good. Orcs and Germans are bad. The reason for combining Fallout with My Little Pony was to show that it doesn't take terrible people to do terrible things. The point was to take the sweetest, most innocent creatures, and show how they could end up murdering and raping each other.
You have never read anything like it
It isn't just an action story
It has a lot of action. But it isn't an action story foremost. The first moment I realized F:E was different from other action stories was when LittlePip, the main character, goes up against the sniper in the library. The sniper is the Final Boss of the library. After killing all the other raiders, LittlePip climbs the stairs to confront him or her.
Then we jump to the next section. The final confrontation is merely summarized. Because it isn't important. Because this isn't just an action story.
I was sure it wasn't an action story when we got to the chapter on Monterey Jack. LittlePip was obligated to save Monterey Jack. I was irritated, because LittlePip was in no shape or circumstance to do so, and I was getting ready to be angry when LittlePip pulled something out of her ass and heroically saved him.
That didn't happen.
It shows that you can write a smashing good adventure story with intellectual content
Before reading F:E, I thought stories came in two varieties: Those for smart people, and those for stupid people. Smart people like ideas. Stupid people like action and sex. Fallout: Equestria uses action to pose its interesting questions. That's why it's so long. It's hard to do that. But it can be done. (Other stories that do that include The Iliad, Hamlet, and Don Quixote.)
It doesn't lie to you
When I read the fan-fiction Fallout: Equestria, I thought it was brilliant. On further reflection, I concluded it might just be random. It seemed brilliant because professionally-published stories are stupider than random. Published books say some things that are true, but they're all things we all know already, because so many books say them. But there are truths that you aren't allowed to tell in print, and lies you're required to endorse, because they are comforting lies that sell books.
Some of the lies that most works other than Fallout: Equestria endorse:
- Karma works. The universe is just at heart; good deeds will eventually be paid back, in some currency.
- Peace is the default state of the world. Conflict happens only when people make mistakes. All conflict is somebody's fault, and could be resolved peacefully if we were just better people.
- There are no true moral dilemmas. There is a right and a wrong, and deep down everyone knows which is which. Bad things happen because people are tempted to do wrong.
- Moral problems are problems when you're tempted to do something for your own benefit. People generally want to be selfish. Acting moral by definition means not doing what you want to do.
- Emotion is morally superior to reason. Trusting reason over emotions leads to evil.
- Ethics are not context-dependent. The right thing is the right thing in any situation. Violence is either glorious, or inherently evil. Being moral means learning the rules and following them in every situation.
- The ends never justify the means.
- Realpolitik is evil and doesn't work. The right solution in any situation is to do the idealistic thing.
Some of the rules that you will seldom see violated outside of Fallout: Equestria, and pretty much never violated in epic fantasy:
- Things must get more and more difficult for the protagonist, until the climax.
- The entire story should be about one big conflict between two sides. Each side should be homogenous; every person on that side has more-or-less the same beliefs, morals, etc. One side is in the wrong, and one is in the right.
- When a story has a villain, the hero must always oppose the villain, and the villain must always oppose the hero.
LittlePip gradually discovers the causes of the war. At various times, you place blame on Pinkie, on Fluttershy, on the zebras, and on others. Eventually you find out that it wasn't anypony's fault. Everybody acted as you would expect them to act, and it was mostly dumb bad luck that brought the apocalypse. There was no villain whose assassination would have prevented it; one character even attempts a royal assassination, which fails; and another character later points out that it wouldn't have made any difference had it succeeded. There were just a number of minor stupidities that snowballed.
In other fiction, the protagonist is in a situation that grows more and more desperate until the climax and resolution, when everything is resolved. In FoE, after the initial disasters on leaving the Stable, the heroine's status, love, power, friendships, and wealth gradually increase, making her more and more comfortable and providing more and more temptation to just stop and let somepony else worry about saving the world. At the story's climax (which is executed poorly, but the concept is brilliant), the last temptation is that the heroine's own goddess, whom she has looked to for the strength to continue on, confronts her and tells her to turn back because she has done enough and the ponies she is trying to save aren't worthy of her sacrifice.
It has true moral dilemmas
Near the very beginning, the party's cleric medic, Velvet Remedy, is captured by slavers. Later, after more deadly battles with the slavers, they rescue her, and discover that she's been doctoring the slavers all this time. The party is furious with her; Velvet is indignant and unrepentant. Kkat doesn't even hint who she thinks is right.
One of the subplots is that LittlePip becomes addicted to drugs that make you smarter, temporarily, with bad long-term consequences. We see Pinkie Pie had the same problem. We see both LittlePip and Pinkie Pie justified their addictions by arguing that the ends justified the means. And we see they were both right.
There is a scene where the party needs to get from point A to point B very quickly. In between is a very angry community of hellhounds, whom the party have only recently discovered can talk and are not just monsters. Some argue that they should try to reason with the hellhounds, because although they might be able to kill enough of them to get through, it would ruin race relations between them. Others argue that what they're doing is too important, and the likelihood of being able to reason with them so low, that they should just go in guns blazing. They do, and they succeed, but Kkat never indicates whether she thinks that was the right or wrong thing to do.
The capacity for violence is necessary, but also very dangerous, and things can spin rapidly out of control - and not in a ham-handed "he went over to the dark side" way. In one scene, an altruistic attempt to steal a life-saving water-purifier from a military group that doesn't really need it, leads to a large-scale firefight that claims more lives that the water-purifier will save. Was trying to steal it wrong? Foolish? Kkat is silent.
Characters are not conveniently faced only with morally-clear situations. There are many situations where the characters argue with each other about what is the moral thing to do, and in many cases the question is never answered, such as when Calamity guns down a child who's shooting at them. (Other stories would try to portray moral ambiguity by having Calamity be an anti-hero who broods, womanizes, and dresses in black, but has a heart of gold. F:E shows him as a super-nice guy who's practical. Calamity has all the traits of a "dark" character, except for not being in any way dark.)
There are, I think, six major factions throughout the story, most of which initially appear to be evil, all of which turn out to be internally divided or to have understandable goals.
One of the main villains, Red Eye, is a straw-vulcan consequentialist. But you can't help but notice that he's the only one with a workable plan to save Equestria, and the only one whose plans go anywhere. The heroine survives only through repeated dumb luck in her favor and Red Eye's desire to turn his operation over to her; Red Eye's plan advances despite his continuous disastrous luck.
The story sets you up for a heroic confrontation with Red Eye and a battle against Red Eye's army. Instead, Red Eye wins and lets the heroine go because he recognizes they have the same objectives, and the heroine must ally herself with Red Eye to maintain the balance of power.
There is a scene where the zebras and ponies have fought a terrible battle. Fluttershy shows up with the first megaspell, one which can heal massive wounds all over the battlefield. It heals every pony and every zebra who isn't dead. Then they all get up and have to fight the battle all over again.
In summary
The story has a lot of faults. The main character escapes too many close calls, and gets much too lucky far too often. Red Eye is a straw vulcan; even if you were a strict consequentialist, raping and murdering your workers is seldom cost-effective. LittlePip's sacrifice at the end is hardly a sacrifice at all; the author wimped out at the last minute. The cruel pun Celestia makes at Luna's expense that ends up triggering the war... I understand Kkat meant for it to give Celestia angst, but it's far too cruel for Celestia's character.
But coming from a geek culture that idolizes Star Wars and Lord of the Rings, it makes me look back at them and think that, for all their good points, they tell dangerous, destructive narratives about conflict and its causes. Fallout: Equestria isn't as polished, but it's more true.
Chapter 2 of Fallout: Equestria at ponyfictionarchive. (Chapter 1, the introduction, was added later, and I don't think it does anything but slow the story down.)
Mike Hunt hurts.
Although I rather enjoy lengthy reads FoE doesn't suit my taste.
I loved FOE, honestly I think it's worth a try if anyone hasn't tried it. On an unrelated note it utterly kills me when people bitch about how long a chapter in a book is...
23 pages being long my ass....
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Too long.
Still read.
Agree with every word.*
Will never read FO:E.**
*On the principle of the theories they represent, not as they relate to the story in question. I haven't read it so I cannot qualify those claims.
**Post-apocalyptic settings and rape are 2 of the things I refuse to associate in any way with anything related to the My Little Pony Friendship is magic cartoon show.
FOE is worth the read. Buck up and start it, you pussies! You don't have to read the whole damn thing in one setting. Do a chapter or two a day.
A wonderful, thoughtful analysis.
430217
If it's a really, really good story*, isn't the fact that it's long a good thing? Otherwise it's like saying, "Yeah, MLP is great but they should have only made a half-season; it takes too long to watch all those episodes!"
-----
* And it is.
Have to agree. FOE was one of the first MLP fics I read, and unlike 95% of the published works I've come across it really drew me in from the start. It just had something that made it difficult to go a day without at least reading a little.
"Fallout: Equestria breaks all these rules. There are other stories that break some of these rules. There are even stories that break many of these rules, like War and Peace. But Fallout: Equestria breaks all of them."
I gotta point out here: I get the point you're making, but logically the reason that Fallout: Equestria breaks all the 'rules' on your list is because ever item on that list is from Fallout: Equestria.
I gotta ask for your opinions: What are your thoughts on some of the fics based off of FoE? Now depending on how fast you read and how much time you have for reading, it's understandable that you might not have read any of them, (and the majority of them, since there's so many, aren't good or noteworthy,) but if you have what are your thoughts about how the more popular ones compare to the original and what you think any of them might do themselves that is unique. If you've read any of the spin-offs you have read at least some of Project Horizons, but there's other exceptional stories like Murky Number Seven and, uh... yeah I got nothing.
I used to have other FoE fics tracked, but either they've stopped updating or weren't that good really. There's so many FoE side-fics, fanfics, spinoffs, whatever-you-call-them out there it's always been hard to try and find good ones, but Murky Number Seven is the best I've found and Project Horizons is it's own category.
Have you played many tabletop roleplaying games? FO:E felt like a game of Dungeons and Dragons played over about 18 months and run by a pretty good Game Master. A lot of the things you're mentioning are things I see in roleplaying games all the time, because when your story has six authors working at cross-purposes, five of whom think they're playing the protagonist, it's easy to get exactly this sort of moral muddle. Players pull the plot in unexpected directions, so the tension and difficulty often don't respect a three-act structure. (There were a lot of other similarities that I'll skip because they don't relate to your post.) I was impressed by how well FO:E captured the feel of a sprawling sandbox RPG, with all its strengths and all its weaknesses.
Also you spelled "Kkat" as "Khat".
I loved that story. And if you've ever actually played Fallout, it's impressive how many elements of the game Kkat implemented. In Fallout, you are faced with several morally ambiguous decisions, and I mean so ambiguous when faced with those choices I actually stopped playing to consider the moral consequences, and like you mentioned there are many of those moments in FoE. Drug addiction is also part of the game, as well as the several warring factions with questionable motives, so don't give Kkat too much credit for those themes. But credit where it is due, the story was well-written and engaging.
I think you're on a pretty high horse here with regards to the purpose of storytelling and the quality of fiction that's not designed to push the envelope, not to mention the way values demonstrated in stories can or should be related to real life. I also think you meant to do that, so I won't waste a lot of typing going into that.
However, I will say that I read what you had to say but it's still not a story I'm interested in. I have more than enough existential angst in real life, thanks. Stories are where I go for a world with a sense of order.
This is probably the most worthy-of-discussion piece of writing regarding FO:E that I've ever seen. And that's why I have to disagree with the point you made with it.
I'll grant you that, in light of what you've pointed out here, FO:E does a lot of things that very few other stories do. Indeed, a lot of those things contribute to giving it a level of depth that very, very few other stories--published or otherwise--even try for, let alone achieve. However, many of the unique attributes you pointed out here could be interpreted as intentional and intelligent deviations from the normal form of commercial fiction, but they could just as easily be interpreted as prime examples of shoddy and/or lazy storytelling masquerading as a ham-fisted attempt to be different. Giving moral ambiguity to both protagonists and antagonists is absolutely a commendable thing for a story to do (and is something I'm doing my best to focus the development of my own grimdark adventure crossover fic around), but the reason nearly all fiction gradually builds up from an introduction through rising action into a climax is because that's the formula that's been proven to be effective for thousands of years.
You could certainly argue that innovation off this form is inevitable and something to be prized, but to argue it makes for a better story is a bit premature; it's akin to saying an abstract song with no discernable melody or rhythm is more valuable just because it doesn't follow the same 4/4 beat pattern everyone's used to hearing. The old forms stick around because they work. To call works that slant the universe in a generally positive, just light "puerile" is a valid argument, given the context you've placed it in, but it also smacks of being the literary equivalent of yanking the bedsheet off a child's head on Halloween because ghosts aren't real and candy is only a short-term material pleasure anyway.
I might be able to give Kkat more credit if I thought she had any intention of dramatically shifting our perception of what storytelling is meant to be, but based on her own description of her writing process in her Archive interview, I find that difficult to believe. I stopped reading Fallout: Equestria around Chapter 20 or so because it was that point I realized that Kkat (by her own admission) had not even touched on what she considered the main plotline of her story. At that point, FO:E was no longer a singular "story". At best, it was a collection of vignettes dedicating to building an image of a world beyond imagination through the experiences of a small group of central characters. At worst, it was an ever-lengthening monument to the author's failed attempt to consolidate her ideas into a manageable whole, hailed by the plebeian masses who couldn't differentiate between an amateur inability to plan ahead and true artistic merit.
I hope you take that last example as the exaggeration it's meant to be, but the point still stands. Personally, I see fiction as a means of exploring the possibilities of our reality in ways that we cannot in our normal lives. Stories like The Great Gatsby and Heart of Darkness are lauded and kept relevant because they delve into that moral ambiguity inherent in human society, but in most cases they only accomplish that by bucking the trends associated with fiction for, in your own words, "stupid people". Taking that as meaning "fiction that goes by the normal rules of fiction-writing", FO:E can either be considered a story meant for smart people, or a failed story meant for stupid people. A story for both stupid and smart people would maintain the accepted structure that makes it accessible for the masses, while also delving into the moral ambiguity that displays the truth of the human condition.
tl;dr - In terms of intellectual validity, FO:E is akin to a metaphysical slice of cake. You can either have your cake and admire it, or eat it and enjoy it for the temporary distractive pleasure that it is. You can't have it both ways.
430300 logically the reason that Fallout: Equestria breaks all the 'rules' on your list is because ever item on that list is from Fallout: Equestria.
Okay, guilty as charged.
WE DON'T NEED NO STEENKING LOGIC!
Gotta confess, the only FoE spinoff that I've read is the one that I wrote, Twenty Minutes. I've heard good things about Project: Horizons, and Pink Eyes.
430309 Doh! Not for the first time, either.
430307 Oh, yeah. But mostly when I was younger and more interested in GP and levelling up than in storytelling. Then when I got older, I moved to White Wolf games, and tried to roleplay. But the Vampire players were gothy, the Werewolf players didn't want moral ambiguity, and the Mage players got their characters beat up and pushed around by the Vampire and Werewolf players. Oddly, Call of Cthulhu might have been the closest I got to that.
430333 Ouch. Again, guilty. But I love straightforward, non-envelope-pushing stories too!
430334 Yes to all that. I don't want to be the guy defending atonal or twelve-tone music. Orchestral music was brutally murdered by the quest for novelty over quality. But I like to have somebody out there trying new things. The tried-and-true rules are a mix of things that make good stories, things that make stories sell, and things that are just wrong. I don't think we even know which is which. Writers and editors are locked in their own little circular world, with no way of discovering what readers like. FoE tries a bunch of odd things, and sometimes they work. There are other examples in fan-fiction. If you told an editor the plot of Past Sins, or showed her the unbridled wonkiness of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, I think she'd laugh in your face. But they both work.
Wait, let me back up. I do like the experimentation. But I think a lot of the "rules" and "tried and true ways" are BAD. This includes all the comforting lies that pretend the world is a nicer place than it is, and that you are a better person than you really are. I'm sick of stories that use authorial power to pose "moral problems", then pretend they have easy, simple-minded solutions. I'm sick of stories that attribute a culture's success to bravery and willpower when it was really a matter of having proper economic incentives or healthy intellectual attitudes. These things are everywhere, and we love them, and they're bad for us.
GEEZ, many notifications with lengthy blogs, but I digress.
I have yet to read the infamous story but love the idea of a "Post-Apocalypse" setting (regardless if inspired by Fallout or the Godfather of it all; Wasteland) when mixed with an innocent franchise, such as MLP. it's not only intriguing to see what an such a devastated environment, but to see what an author can do to show that goodness can last in such a state (regardless if its intended or not). Personally, I find it a good setting to see what our beloved character would do with such freedom, chaotic freedom, for which to do as they please since the rule of the Royal Sister is no longer applied with such harmony.
As for the story itself, I will read in due time in my tablet. And I'll give it more consideration after reading your post. Good day all.
Not that I don't love your stories, but this is why I follow you, Bad Horse.
430386
Can I just reply to all of your replies? I will anyway.
If your Mage characters were being pushed around and beat up by Vampires or Werewolves, you either had a very bad storyteller or one who GMed too many bad Mage games. (There was always a tendency for storytellers to GM a Mage game where the characters blew through the plot like reality was tissue paper, and never let a Mage do anything ever again in any game.) Besides, Changeling is where it's at.
Obviously there's a lot wrong with the publishing industry, but the rise of e-publishing (both for profit and free works like fanfiction,) along with the networking capabilities of the internet, have broken the effective stranglehold. Envelope pushing works may never be as popular as tried and true, but now they're available and you can read them, promote them, and use them to illustrate long winded rants on the genius of existentialist literature.
And I know you like some of those "puerile" stories. If you didn't like a few straight-forward, non-envelope pushing stories, I seriously doubt you'd be watching a show about multi-colored ponies and the magic of friendship.
430442 If you didn't like a few straight-forward, non-envelope pushing stories, I seriously doubt you'd be watching a show about multi-colored ponies and the magic of friendship.
Actually, MLP:FiM breaks a lot of the rules! I gotta blog about that... but I think I've tried everpony's patience enough for this week.
But, yeah, I still love Star Wars and LotR. I'll rewrite the summary. No need to insult them.
I pretty much ignored FO:E for the longest time. The idea of a crossover between those two franchises seemed just to weird. Then I discovered the audiobook (I'm addicted to those because of a long commute to work) and gave it try. I have to admit the first few chapters out of the stable felt like the story is only made up of violence, gore and action. But it got better and then I was hooked.
The story has its flaws, as you pointed out. I for one think LittlePip and his companion got dragged into sidequests way too much. I get why Kkat did that, because it's a huge part of the Fallout experience. But it doesn't work that wellfor a story. And while I love long stories, FO:E gets too long towards the end. For me the parts in the Everfree Forest and Canterlot (especially with Zebratown coming right before it) just dragged on endlessly. Also, for some reason every encounter with the hellhounds just anoyed me.
But I loved the characters and the incredible amount of lore Kkat created for this world. At the end of things, it was one of the most entertaining things I read in the last year. (And got me to finally play New Vegas, which I enjoed immensely - it's been years since I put over 80 hours in a single game
)
Part of what you mention is just a genre thing.
High fantasy will have the old big bad guy with orcs vs the forces of good. And, look, here's a powerful artifact to use to destroy the big bad. Sunshine and rainbows for all until the next book series, yay. This is your Lord of the Rings inspired stuff, your Shanara series, and so on. And the same deal with sci-fi equivalent, space opera (like Star Wars). That is where the 'lies' exist.
But you go with a dark setting and that isn't the case. Try Cook's stuff, like the "Annals of the Black Company", where a mercenary company rebels against an evil empire, only by the end of the trilogy realizing that the empire is now better than what the rebellion represents. They don't even have a fight with the evil empress in the end, they run off with her in exile. Or Friedman's "Coldfire Trilogy", which has my favorite portrayal of a paladin type character by far, because he actually has to make hard moral choices for his religion, rather than being stupid and headstrong. Or Moorecocks's "The Eternal Champion" series (Elric, Hawkmoon, Count Brass, etc). Elric* wipes out all life on the planet. For that matter, consider Howard's Conan. He's out for himself and leads pirates and marauding armies at various times. And that holds true for dark settings in things like sci-fi as well. Or super-hero stories with anti-heroes.
Since FO:E is dark, it not having those 'lies' is not a break from conformity, but rather, the opposite. It is merely being true to the dark genre.
*Of course, Elric was designed to play contrary to expectations. The physically weak, drug using, albino sorcerer, ruler of a decadent race, with the evil artifact is the "good" guy, rather than the muscular, sword-swinging farmboy/barbarian.
430386
Pink Eyes is lighthearted and silly.
BTW, reading any long FoE fic, or even the original, it's best to read it piece by piece. They aren't just written serially; each chapter can be so complex and have so much depth that if you don't take breaks between chapters then everything will blur together in your mind into a smeared mess and you will miss details and become confuddled. Especially Project Horizons, but PH is kinda an exception to everything. Anyways, the other most popular FoE fics that haven't been mentioned yet are Heroes and New Beginnings. I read both of those, but I didn't read more than a few chapters and can't recommend them on anything but the knowledge that they're just really popular.
Ok, I kinda forgot everything else I wanted to say here (something about Kkat mainly wrote the story for her fans, not to break any rules, and that she did so is great regardless of, uh, something) because I was busy making this recommendation for Project Horizons. You really should click that link because you really should give that story a shot and reading that post will hopefully convince you to try it.
430386
I enjoy experimentation too. At the same time, though, I take a Kantian approach to its validity: it doesn't count if you didn't mean to do it. Based on what I've seen, I don't think Kkat meant to do any of the things you gave her credit for, so I can't in good faith give her credit for them myself.
And I respect the desire to see the world portrayed as it is. Truly, I do; it's people like you and I who are willing to accept that truth who could thereby change it if we could only convince more people of that reality. But therein lies the rub: we can't convince others of that, because the grand majority of humanity is perfectly content with taking the short-term benefits as they come and simply not thinking about anything beyond their own lives and their own present. It's this debatably pessimistic view I have of the world that makes me so supportive of the traditional norms of storytelling. It's not necessarily ignorance that makes us want to believe that good and evil are distinct things, that just actions inevitably lead to just outcomes; more often than not, it's in our very nature. It's why we idolize our heroes, follow religious ideals, simplify complex issues into things that are strictly black-and-white; deep down, we know the world is often a shitty place, so we keep ourselves happy by allowing us to fantasize that it isn't.
As with many other things, that kind of attitude is harmless and even quite beneficial in moderation. A good number of the problems in the world, however, persist because people take that attitude too far, because they imagine themselves into a reality that doesn't exist. This is where true literature is still valuable and worthy of being treasured: it plays the role of court jester, speaking truth to power in the only way it knows it can. At the same time, though, nothing is ever truly accomplished through it. Too often, our instructors teach us how to read for the same themes everyone else already found, instead of critically assessing a text to understand what it means for us personally. Too often, people write off artists as people who refuse to "live in the real world" and follow the same trends that are leading us to ruin. Too often, people are perfectly willing to ignore the truth even if the evidence in support of it is overwhelming, purely because they don't want to think about the possibility that their worldview might be wrong.
Challenging the status quo is worthwhile on principle. I just don't expect it to get me, you, or humanity as a whole anywhere fast.
430492
"Based on what I've seen, I don't think Kkat meant to do any of the things you gave her credit for, so I can't in good faith give her credit for them myself."
"It's why we idolize our heroes, follow religious ideals, simplify complex issues into things that are strictly black-and-white; deep down, we know the world is often a shitty place, so we keep ourselves happy by allowing us to fantasize that it isn't."
"Challenging the status quo is worthwhile on principle. I just don't expect it to get me, you, or humanity as a whole anywhere fast."
Ok, I honestly really disagree with you here, but it's after midnight where I'm at and I really don't think I have the mental fortitude left to actually talk about this. *Sigh*
Definitely agree, these are the kinds of things that made me love FoE.
Great analysis.
I hate FoE with such a great passion that if a fraction of that hatred could take physical form, you would all burn in the everlasting fire that would consume all things, obliterating existence as we know it. If you were to try to look up the definition of overrated, you wouldn't be able to find it in a dictionary because FoE has most likely taken its place, having been the epitome of the word itself. I would go on about how much I hate it and why, but to do so would mean the destruction of several major cities and the untimely demise of many innocent people, brought upon by my uncontrollable fury as I am forced to remember the unholy shit I have read with these tortured eyes.
And Bad Horse... why, just why, did you have to bring up LotR and FoE in the same discussion, let alone in a comparison between the two? And if I am not mistaken, it appears that you were actually in favor of FoE. Statues are weeping blood, the Earth quakes in anguish and the heavens above look down in shame. The most malicious and depraved spirits gaze in awe at an event so unbelievably evil, for they can only respect what they could never achieve themselves, if only through fear. Dark times are ahead, and I fear the reckoning may be upon us.
An unforgivable sin has taken place here... It will take a lot to forgive this atrocious crime, but in time, I may decide that I won't have to kill you.
(To clarify, I strongly but respectfully disagree).
I think this post accurately reflects why I don't read FO:E. I already get all that from other places. Even in fantasy, from writers like George R R Martin, Matthew Stover, Glen Cook, Richard Morgan and Steven Erikson. FIM is my escape from all that relentless grimness.
430288 no no it is a good thing it's long and all, it just kills me a little inside when people complain about how long 2 pages is when Fallout Equestria's chapter 38 is just about 100 pages long. It's more of a personal thing that I hate it when people whine about things that aren't even bad, because chapter 38, and all the other chapters too, were more then worth it.
430717 I haven't read those stories, so I may just be ignorant. But my impression, from stories I have read, is that "grim" fantasy is fantasy where the author is disappointed in the world. The authorial voice still believes in the same simplistic moral code, and is bitter that it doesn't work. How many of those grim stories have happy, triumphant endings?
Fallout: Equestria isn't bitter. It has a lot of grimdark stuff, but the author and the protagonist are idealistic. They cling to a simple, straightforward moral code: Suffering is bad, let's minimize it. They feel bad when they inflict suffering along the way to that, but it isn't presented in a "see, dear reader, how futile the attempt to live a righteous life is" way, nor in a "all is vanity, life is meaningless, striving is hopeless" way. It's optimistic and hopeful; it believes in a (literally) bright future, you've just gotta get your hooves dirty to get to it. (This sort of storytelling might be out of fashion because it's been so horribly abused in the 20th century, by anarchists, Nazis, and communist parties.)
430640 Dr. Fumbles, I've read your comments before and I know you're a smart person. But you spent many words describing how much you hate FoE without one word to explain why you hate it.
Yes, I prefer FoE to LotR. LotR is much better-written. But it lies about the world. It promotes Dark Age beliefs and values, that were useful and valid in the dark ages (and, hell, yes, I'm going to use that term despite it being politically incorrect now) but are dysfunctional now. The past was better than the future, and the future will only get worse. Change is bad. Technology is bad. Pride is bad. Your personality is determined by your race. Everything important is done by men, or by women trying to be men. Blind loyalty is a virtue. Correct morals are a set of rules that are the same for every person and in every situation. People naturally tend towards evil, and bad things happen because people give in to their base nature. Evil is best fought by identifying the evil people and the evil races and killing them.
There is not one single morally-ambiguous situation in the entire series. What Tolkien presents is temptations. Characters can choose to give in to temptation, or not. But you, the reader, always know what the proper and virtuous thing to do is in every moral "dilemma".
I could rant about the worldbuilding in LotR... I know I'm in a minority on that. The ridiculous geography, the distinctness and homogeneity of the races, the everpresent spirituality without any trace of religion, the lack of romance or sex or women, the failure to understand the impact of trade, the absence of economics... But that's secondary to the giant thematic problems.
(In The Hobbit, there's a discussion of how to get to Lake-Town. The only possible approach is an arduous journey through an insanely-dangerous forest full of monsters and malevolent elves. And Lake-Town's only industry is... trade.)
Tolkien did some great things. His characters are wonderful. His re-introduction of poetry and storytelling into epics was brilliant and is not enough imitated. And he introduced the little hero, the un-heroic person thrust into a heroic role, who is a hero without the trappings and tropes of heroism. That was tremendously important, and is what I like best about his books.
You say that I should jump into the jaws of the monster called FO:E because it tells a realistic story in a setting I don't like?
Naaa... I rather read a book about real history and keep my ponies clean.
I'm just not fond of gore.
430862 You're right. History trumps Fallout: Equestria. (Often, though, it isn't as interesting to read.)
430888
That's true. Reality simply has no sense of drama, the dialogs are wooden at best and the plots tend to be terribly convoluted.
And yet, the allure of "real" seems irresistible, just look at all those "reality dokus" and -"dramas".
And now I wonder how a "big brother"-show would play out with ponies.
I've been avoiding reading Fo:E mostly because I've never liked the Fallout games...but looking back, that's more for gameplay reasons than anything
mind providing a link to the original? i looked and got an avalanche of spinoffs
430927 I shoulda done that in the post. Here.
430930
thanks
now back to the new DH fic
priorities, man
I do agree with a lot of what you said. When the brony community started out, Fallout Equestria was basically one of the first things like it that the community knew.
However, while I did read the entire story, things never quite clicked for me like they did with everyone else. At most my reaction was "Oh, Fallout? I like Fallout!" but as the story wore on, I had to admit that it wasn't bad, but it wasn't particularly engrossing to me, either. I'd already read several stories, like Jetfire's It's A Dangerous Business, Somewhere Only We Know, and a few others I can't quite remember that had grabbed me like Fallout never quite did.
Also I kind of really didn't like Littlepip as a character.
Everything she said and did just didn't seem to belong in the story, reading like a character from another book was abruptly dropped into this one. The story got almost ridiculously sanctimonious near the end as well, to the point where it just wasn't really a Fallout, or even a My Little Pony story anymore to me.
In the end though, it opened Fallout to My Little Pony, and while I don't really like that Kkat's version of the Wasteland is now the "canon" one, I can appreciate how it impacted all of us.
On that note, have you read My Little Metro?
430386 You must read Pink Eyes.
430386
I know what you mean. My own trajectory was Dungeons and Dragons ==> White Wolf ==> weird indie stuff. Within that last category, Microscope is something that can easily accommodate the kinds of things you're talking about here.
430334
Storytelling can definitely change the status quo. I know that because it has done so in the past, both for good and for ill. Uncle Tom's Cabin and Birth of a Nation are the most powerful examples that spring to mind, although that's probably an artifact of what history I've studied most. Innovative stories also change individual people, which is why Faust made MLP the way she did in the first place. Speaking for myself, I know I owe most of my empathy to Orson Scott Card and Connie Willis.
430492
>Based on what I've seen, I don't think Kkat meant to do any of the things you gave her credit for, so I can't in good faith give her credit for them myself.
I'm not very interested in assigning or withholding credit, just in the results.
>This is where true literature is still valuable and worthy of being treasured: it plays the role of court jester, speaking truth to power in the only way it knows it can.
Yes!
>At the same time, though, nothing is ever truly accomplished through it.
When it comes to changing peoples' minds, the only methods that work are brainwashing children, peer pressure, advertising, and storytelling. Storytelling is the only one that isn't inherently corrupt.
431070 On that note, have you read My Little Metro?
My Little Metro by darthtater110? That boy sure can write.
432487 He is an inspiration to us all. I wouldn't have started writing without him!
430855 [If you aren't in the mood for any extensive reading, skip down to the TL;DR at the bottom]
Thank you for the compliment, it means a lot to hear that coming from you.
I looked at my comment and saw that it remains just as silly as I wrote it. But in retrospect, I now realize that it was perhaps a little too silly, and even worse, pointless. I just want to clarify a few things, first of which is my actual opinion on the story. I wouldn't say I have an unparalleled hatred so much as an unfavorable opinion, mostly due to a long list of mild to moderate pet peeves. That brings me to my second point, which is why I feel the way I do. To tell you the truth, I don't feel the story is that bad as a whole. Actually, I'd say it's quite good. When I first decided to read it, I had high hopes that this story was going to be awesome. After reading the prologue, I knew that my assumptions were correct.
The story continued to be awesome, but I couldn't shake the feeling that something was wrong. Slowly but surely, my positive opinion began to deteriorate, as the story seemed insistent on consistently striking a personal nerve at every opportunity it got. It was infuriating that such a good story had so many qualities that I dislike. Each individual problem wasn't even that big, and some people might think It's weird these things bothered me. What I'm trying to say is that I don't hate FoE because it's bad. I hate the story because it seems to be comprised of every little thing that bothers me, and I mean every single thing, all in the theme of one of my favorite games. To make things even worse, the story was written well and developed nicely, which just added insult to injury. It was like going to a fantastic feast with all of your friends, looking upon the opulent table, gazing at the mountains of food before you with famished eyes, only to now finally realize that it's an assortment of every food you despise. The banquet is fantastic and you're surrounded by friends who are enjoying themselves, but I'm just unlucky enough to not have the taste for it.
To give a few examples, when I found out Littlepip was a unicorn, I wasn't too happy. This is due to a fundamental difference on the view of magic between Kkat and I (at least I assume). Magic is the bane of my existence when it comes to storytelling, and I can't help but feel that it's a little lazy and uninspired. This is a world full of ponies, which have little means to interact with the environment, and they are living in a world that experienced a catastrophe of apocalyptic proportions. It's exciting to me to think about how they would adapt to survive this hellish wasteland when everything is so different from how it once was. But when the main character can simply manipulate anything around her by just thinking about it, it kinda ruins the whole survival aspect, and I feel it relies too heavily on suspension of disbelief. A pony doesn't need to be as powerful as Twilight in order for this to apply to the situation, even just the ability to levitate an object would give her a considerable edge in any conflict. When in a tight situation, it would be too easy to say, "Wait, why didn't she just do X?"
I've always enjoyed stories where the hero is the underdog, having to use wits to overcome challenges rather than go in guns blazing. This feels like an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie to me; he's already got a huge list of advantages over anything that stands in his way and you're just watching him be a badass. But you never feel like he's ever in real danger because, well, just look at the guy. These stories have their place, but not in survival/horror. If an earth pony or pegasus were tied up, being held by raiders who are going to kill them, you'd think "Wow! how are they going to get out of this?" The suspense is high if the story did a good job at making you care about the character. But if they can just use magic, even a little, it gets irritating that she just suddenly forgets she's a unicorn. Making a unicorn suddenly unable to use magic just seems contrived as well. Littlepip has magic and a pipbuck, and hell, even her horn could be used as a lethal weapon. But you know, I was willing to ignore this.
The next thing bothered me more than it should have: She's gay. I'm not against the whole lesbian horse trend, though it does bother me, especially when it comes out of nowhere unannounced, but A LOT of people seem to like it. I like stories where one, maybe two characters are gay, and the story actually has more meaning than just "I suddenly decided to be gay. Oh, and I love you." "What a coincidence! I just so happen to be gay as well and have always loved you too!" "Wow, what a completely convenient and totally believable coincidence! Let's have sex!" And then they had sex.
FoE hasn't really committed that crime, at least not as I described, but it does do something equally annoying (at least to me). This is a world where ponies are on the brink, struggling to survive when there are so few of them left. And when repopulating the planet is a high priority, our main character... is gay. I know it isn't her fault, it's just the way she is. But it is Kkat's fault. When I found out the main character was female, I realized that this will actually lead to some very interesting scenarios, and the amount of drama and potential for good subplots were very high. Surely there would be a lot of pressure on her to further populate the planet, how will she deal with this? How will she find a mate in this cutthroat world that she can trust? How will she handle her own female sex drive when it could easily lead to her getting abused? If she does meet a partner, how will their relationship be in this world? How will she handle having a child, or how will she cope with the fact that raising a child good in this world would be near impossible? It goes on and on. But then she was gay, and all of that crumbled. I stopped reading for three days, mourning the possibilities that will never be, before I decided to give it another go. After all, it's just one more little problem... right?
Surprisingly enough, the next thing didn't bother me much, despite it being a fairly bigger problem, and that was Littlepip's personality. She came off as a bit annoying to me, but this was entirely due to personal preferences. It would be very difficult to explain why, so I'll just move on and mark it off as another little quirk.
This is the part where it all comes together, and it's all because of one more little detail. The story was in first person narrative. Actually, this detail alone didn't bother me in the slightest, at least not at first. Since I was reading through Littlepip's perspective, everything hit me at once. She had a slightly annoying personality, she was a unicorn when an earth pony would have made her more interesting, and she was lesbian when being straight would create a more interesting and personal character development, at least in this new environment. Then, an epiphany occurred. I hated Littlepip. I mean, I really hated Littlepip. The story just kept on giving me more and more reasons to dislike her, and none of them were really major, but they all bled into the next creating one massive problem, like many of the other issues, character related or not. The problems I listed about Littlepip are only a few on a much longer list, and the thing that made it all worse was that it was in first person. Now I'm stuck seeing the world through the limited perspective of a character I hate. Fallout is supposed to be a BIG world, with a lot going on. In the games, it's always implied that so much more is happening around you than you can see, and that you and your actions have little effect in the long run. While I do understand why Kkat wrote in first person, I would have preferred to get the full picture that only third person can provide.
Besides the issues about Littlepip, there are many that have to do with the story alone. But I'll just quickly describe a few of the biggest offenders. I felt the story was slightly too referential to the Fallout series. Also, I feel it broke a few rules from Fallout, specifically the fact that the past should be implied rather than shown. Also, I HATE the fact there are guns in a pony story. I don't care if this is a Fallout crossover, there is no way ponies, zebras, or any other species of Equestria would come to a point where they would invent guns. Guns were the result of over a hundred years of evolution in warfare, and that's with humans, who just so happen to have the hands to use them. How and why would a pony suddenly say to itself "I want to kill something today," then decide that the best possible way to achieve this is to make a very complicated and expensive contraption with a firing mechanism that is incompatible to their species. They wouldn't even be able to hold the gun, let alone fire it. Then, for whatever reason, they decide to mass produce these harmless killing devices, expending huge amounts of resources in the process, which I'm sure did not do any favors to the whole resource depletion issue that started the whole mess. This world has a very open set of rules, and there is so much opportunity for creativity. I just don't know how someone wouldn't take MLP as a fantastic chance to let your imagination flow. I could write a series of books explaining why guns are really stupid, but I think this has gone on long enough, and I could go on for many days and nights explaining little details that bothered me, such as the mane six being complete idiots and/or very naive, or how the story is so much longer than necessary, but I think I made my point already.
TL;DR - When I said I hated FoE, it was because it was just a coincidental compilation of every single pet peeve I have. It's like an ultimate jimmy rustler tailor made to troll me specifically. The story is great, but I just can't enjoy it for reasons that many people would disagree with (I understand and respect that), which is why I gave no examples the first time around. I don't expect you to agree with anything I said. Actually, I'm counting on it; I'm sure a lot of people don't agree, seeing how many people love it. FoE is an absolutely fantastic fic that everyone but me enjoys, and I can certainly see why people admire it. I was just being silly at the mention of this story. Sorry for not explaining myself earlier and for the confusion.
434964 Sorry for being slow to respond. Big wall of text, but turnabout's fair play.
It's funny; there are a lot of things I dislike about FoE, but none of them are the same as the things you dislike. I didn't mind LittlePip having magic or a gun as much as I minded her winning too often and having too good luck. I did wonder how earth ponies were supposed to have used pistols, but... eh, I let it slide as long as she wasn't describing earth ponies using pistols.
Wow. Thank you, Bad Horse. (And yes, I know this is a tragically late response.)
430334 (Aquaman) I stopped reading Fallout: Equestria around Chapter 20 or so because it was that point I realized that Kkat (by her own admission) had not even touched on what she considered the main plotline of her story.
I'm very sorry to hear you stopped reading, particularly for what was clearly a misunderstanding.
The main plotline of the story was "touched on" as early as the second chapter. However, it did not come to the forefront until after Chapter 20.
I have a certain methodology for telling an epic story: you start by laying groundwork, planting Chekhov's guns, and giving only hints of the main conflict while focusing on the ripples that the conflict has caused in the protagonist's world. Next, your characters become involved in larger conflicts that are either the mechanizations of or indirect result of the greater threat.
Examples of this can be shown in series like Babylon 5 or the Harry Potter books. Before Voldemort resurrects and begins moving on the magic world, the protagonist should first have confrontations with deatheaters and encounter a horocrux. The war with the Shadows may be the main plot, but you don't have them move openly until the third season -- and before that, you have to go through the Narn/Centari war.
It may not be the best way to write a story, but it is a very intentional and pre-plotted design. By saying that the characters hadn't started the Mane Quest yet, I was in no way saying that everything that went before was unimportant or that I had no idea where I was going and how to get there. I will admit that it wasn't my intention to challenge the proper way to write a story -- I was just interested in telling a worthwhile one.
434964 (Dr. Fumbles) Thank you. That is probably the most reasonable and well-thought-out explanation of why someone... severely dislikes Fallout: Equestria that I have ever read. It lacked the normal hyperbole or name-calling, and simply presented a very solid case for not enjoying the story. It even gave due credit while doing so. I'm impressed. And I am also sorry that my story hit so many of your pet peeves.
Actually, after reading that, I would love to see you write a Fallout: Equestria side story, because your takes on what would make a high-quality protagonist and interesting conflicts sounds like you could weave a truly sumptuous tale.
507711 I'm not gonna lie, when I saw that you replied to that comment, I got pretty nervous. It feels like talking about a quality you don't like about a friend behind their back, only to realize they were standing behind you the whole time.
But... I'm very relieved to see that you took no offence to my comment (and I really meant none at all in it). You've certainly shown why you're one of the most popular writers in this fandom. Then again, I suppose nobody would have gotten as far as you did if they weren't able to take criticism (justified, unjustified or just plain trolling). Your semi-recent interview also showed how you made it as far as you did. That was very enlightening.
I know that my comment was a... little long... and negative... but I still want to stress that I think FoE is great, and deserves all of the attention it has gotten. I'm not trying to suck up to you or anything, your popularity means very little to me. Hell, I'm not even afraid to admit that I hated your guts for a time. FoE side stories... they were everywhere... thousands of them!
For someone who thinks that FoE was fantastic but personally unbearable at the same time, this was very irritating. But I grew up, admitted that I was being immature and realized it wasn't your fault. How could it be?
Either way, I thank you for visiting us mortals, and for your kind words. It's always nice to see popular writers listening to what we say. Oh, and... I'm sincerely honored that you would suggest I write a side story to FoE. I know there are many out there already, both good and bad, and I know that I'm making a much bigger deal out of it than it probably is, but for someone to suggest to someone else that they should write a side story to their own story... I don't know, it just seems like a big deal. I know it's probably not, but still.
I'm just starting out as a writer, and to have you compliment me and suggest such a thing... well, I would definitely be lying if I said you didn't inspire me (kinda ironic, if you think about it). And I'm not just saying that your story inspired me to write, or that I'm trying to get your attention and favor by saying that you inspired me... I'm saying that you, just simply you, Kkat, a good person, has inspired me. And to inspire someone... that is a big deal.
Well, I guess that's all. I would normally say "Talk to you later!" but that probably won't happen, I'm sure you're pretty busy. Either way, it was nice to hear what you had to say about my opinion. I hope to see you write again, maybe even on here (but only if you want to). If such a day were to come, I want to be prepared. Guess I'm gonna have to start watching you now.
And now, from someone who is completely impartial to your story, totally isn't a fanboy and someone you can trust to be sincere and honest when it matters, I say thanks for the inspiration, so long, and you're awesome. Keep being awesome.
I'm going to write this here because I didn't see anyone complaining of this particular issue. And I know it's been some time, but it's good because I need to talk FO: Equestria after trying to read it again and failing.
I'll start by saying that I LOVE, with every fiber of my being, Fallout. My favorite being Fallout 3. Another thing I need to say is that love just as much MLP-FIM. So, why the buck didn't FO:E work for me? I'm not sure. I picked it up four times to read it, but it just can't go on with it!
It's not the grimdark stuff: I've had a lot of it happening on a online RP game I have with a friend. It´s not the "adult stuff", like sex. It's not the violence. We've had that in our game too: relentless, brutal violence, physical and mental. It's not the violence coming from ponies: we've had that too. Our ponies use firearms (many concepts adapted from FO:E, like the saddle-mounted weapons), energy weapons, powerful combat spells, plain old swords and spears, normal and enchanted.
My problem with FO:E, I think, is just how stupid it all is. Just like in Fallout. The world is destroyed because two great superpowers couldn't come to terms and suddenly Bam! The world is no more. I can see that happening in our world. But on Equestria? Sure. if Celestia suddenly sneezed out her brain like she appears to have done in FO:E. So yeah... It was her fault.
Discord is screwing up things? Can fix that. Nightmare Moon on the loose? Can fix that. Whatever problems appeared over some thousands years? Can fix those. Discord shows up again? MY STUDENT can fix that. But it seems that as soon that the war starts, she just can't take it anymore, and some bad thing (couldn't have been worse than the Nightmare Moon episode) happens? OH MY GOD! I CAN'T DO THIS! Here Luna, fix this.
She's actually Trollestia playing a megaprank on Equestria. She ruled a peaceful Equestria for 1000 years on her own, but can't solve this particular crisis with the help of her sister? Now, my problem is not really that Celestia suffers from immediate brain-rot. My problem is that this seems vital to the story. After all, if Celestia can fix this, there's no ponified nuclear war.
Conclusion: this character that should have been able to prevent it all from happening acts horribly out of character, just so the story can happen.
Also, this may be out of my headcanon. But while I can see the ponies doing violence to each other (there are the royal guards, and they may not be just for show), I think that instead of preying on each other, like humans so commonly do, shouldn't the ponies be actually helping each other?
And I'd like to see a actual explanation on how the hell the moon and the sun keep moving around Equestria too.
I wanted to like FO:E but I couldn't and I feel frustrated, because I love a good story.
523459 Your objections are reasonable, but they apply equally to the show. It never answers the question of where day and night came from before the sisters, or what happens outside of Equestria. And Celestia is useless whenever something threatens Equestria, because plot. The way she decided to gamble the fate of both Equestria and the Crystal Kingdom just to give her student some kind of test in the recent episode was worse than anything in FoE.