Points of Canon: S4x20 - Leap of Faith

I think the first thing I do when this reference is done is a huge overview of pony schizotech, meticulously listing examples of their technology in various fields, as well as giving some theories as to why they don’t, for example, have TV, and how would it work at the time they actually do invent it. Anyway. More episode combing while I still have episodes to comb and time to devote to the effort.

• The entire Apple Trio is playing in water. This typically isn’t something you do unless it’s summer, if only because the water is too cold otherwise in most temperate climates, however, that’s no guarantee of seasonal placement.
• Notice that Big Mac is using a rubber ducky life preserver, even though he’s tall enough to stand on the lake floor, while Applejack is not using any swimming aids.
• Apple Bloom neglected to remove her bow and Applejack kept her hat on for swimming. I guess that explains why they need such an extensive supply as seen in Somepony To Watch Over Me.
• There’s a primitive swing – a board with one hole and a rope through it – hanging off a tree next to Granny Smith. This is strange, because see further below.

• “Time was, I was an aquapony all-star! In fact, I was the only Apple to ever come close to breaking the Equestria high-diving record! Falling six stories into a deep dish pie pan takes a toll on the hindquarters. Oh, I was so sore, took years before I could even look at the water again!”

  • The term “aquapony” is itself rather peculiar.
  • The flashback actually seems to depict Manehattan, of all places, at least, the street it is set in looks very much like the same street most of Rarity’s Fashion Week scenes happen around during Rarity Takes Manehattan. Is it? If it is, how’d she end up there, and does it have anything to do with the Oranges?
  • Notice that diving in this era appears to require more clothes than in modern day, and Granny Smith reiterates it later in the episode by dressing up.
  • I expect her hip problems seen in early series and mentioned in The Ticket Master are a result of this experience more so than they are the result of old age: At some point during season 1, she abandons the zimmer she walked with, and in general has less problems moving as the series progresses.
  • I am pretty sure that surviving a fall into a deep-dish pie pan from this kind of altitude is not possible without earth pony magic. Even Granny herself admits profusely that this was a stupid idea. And by the end of the episode we find out it literally is a deep-dish pie pan.
• Big Mac pranks Apple Bloom with a faux shark fin on his head. Equestria has sharks, and they’re famous enough for Apple Bloom to know they’re a thing.
• “Wow, Granny. I can’t believe you were a high diver!” “The best one in Ponyville!” So did Ponyville even have more than one high diver in the era?

• The crowd of suffering ponies contains…

  • Numerous bandaged ponies, including pegasi with bandaged wings.
  • A pony with his front leg in a sling. One who is suspiciously like Granny’s dad, matching all the colors, the entire model, the clothing, and the cutie mark, what the actual flying fuck! The only thing missing is the hat.
  • The elderly pegasus lady from the Cloudsdale weather factory, previously seen during the Sonic Rainboom.
  • Amethyst Star with a bandaged horn.
  • A stallion in what I called a wheelcart – which, unlike a wheelchair, has relatively small wheels, and is meant to be propelled by the front hooves moving across the ground, rather than manipulating the wheels.
  • A perfectly healthy-looking, if crazed-eyed Lyra.
  • …Lemon Hearts. No sign of a bandage on her.
  • And numerous other familiar ponies, with bandages and without.
• Of course Minuette and Twinkleshine were curious too. Minuette was curious twice.
• The presentation tent is lit by firefly lamps. Haven’t seen explicit firefly lamps in a while. Which is funny, because the foothooflights on the stage are apparently electric.
• The machine Flim & Flam use for their presentation includes electric lamps, and what has to be a steam generator, but the presentation itself is accomplished by quick-swapping prepared images.
• Applejack and Big Mac instantly recognize and identify the Flimflam brothers.
• “There’s ailments all around us in everything we touch and see” The image used to illustrate this line, as well as subsequent ones, clearly certifies that ponies have the germ theory of disease.
• “Consider just how dangerous this world is! You might…” Illustrated by images of falling down stairs and being run over by unattended carriages. Actually, we’ve seen ponies survive those unscathed…
• There’s a pony with a cloud of parasprites in her hair. Which would be the only time we remembered those exist at all. Huh? Are these alive? Or are they a fashion statement expletive?
• The brothers appear to teleport to illustrate the line “and magical!” – but considering that their appearance is concealed in smoke, this is definitely just a trick.
• So which particular hypothetical ailment would necessitate Silver Shill to walk on crutches like that, anyway, remaining upright? Spine injury?… There are other ponies walking on crutches, and they don’t do it like that.

• So there’s this verse…

  “It cures the reins, the spurs, and the Clydesdale fur blight.
  Hooferia and horsentery cured in just a night.
  You’ve got swollen hooves and hindquarters or terrible bridle-bit cleft.
  Saunter sitz and gallop plop will give your tail some heft.
  Mane loss, hay fever, or terrible tonsillitis.”

  • “Reins” is a disease, the most prominent symptom of which is a green tongue with some kind of warts on it.
  • “Spurs” appears to be a disease of the rear side of the leg, but the detail is unclear entirely, it looks like an infestation of burrs.
  • “Clydesdale fur blight” involves hair loss, primarily in the rump area. So what is “Clydesdale?” Because it’s not “Cloudsdale.”
  • “Hooferia” looks like dwarfism and this particular claim looks like it would be easy to verify.
  • “horsentery” is illustrated by a pony in the last stages of death by starvation, which is something that happens with dysentery, but why would they want to horse pun it, I can’t say.
  • “Swollen hooves and hindquarters” turns up the same guy with cutie mark inflammation we can see in the hospital during Where The Apple Lies, giving further support to the idea that someone imagined the entire flashback of that episode – and that someone is probably Apple Bloom, who is present to view this presentation here.
  • “bridle bit cleft” would imply someone actually wears a bridle with a bit. Where are they hiding?
  • “Hay fever” sounds funny, but a pony with an allergy to hay would have a really hard time living in Equestria… That said, the cause of hay fever is typically allergy to pollen, rather than hay. But for ponies, these would be an epic pain as well.
  • “Tonsillitis” is illustrated by the inflammation of the uvula, rather than tonsils. Huh?…
• The claim that the tonic can make one both short, tall, young and old should have caused some warning bells in Granny Smith, but didn’t.

• Big Mac is fishing, using a whole apple as bait.

  • Ponies fish. Not the first time we see it, but worth mentioning.
  • You only try using a whole apple if you expect a rather big fish.
  • The fish ate the apple and left the core untouched while Mac and company were gawking at Granny. That’s some clever fish.
• “When somepony says somethin’s too good to be true, it usually is.” Needs no comment, it’s important that ponies have this heuristic at all.

• “You mean Granny wasted her money?” “Well, I don’t know about that, but I don’t think there’s a tonic in Equestria that can make an old pony young again.”

  • Either Applejack knows that placebo effect is a thing, or accepts that the tonic might have actual beneficial effects. Her later phrase “I’m not so sure that tonic really does anythin’” and subsequent behavior implies the former.
  • Applejack is not aware of chemical means of rejuvenation, so we can safely assume that if any actually do exist, they are not widely available by any means.
• Granny Smith is swimming on her back, and in the same outfit she wore during her flashback. I am pretty sure that a horse would not be able to move like that, but ponies don’t have such a problem.
• Big Mac uses his yoke as a life preserver. It floats.
• “And, and what about your hip?!” Whatever hip replacement surgery Applejack was looking into during Ticket Master was apparently never performed, Granny got better on her own.
• “Though if it’s a genuine cure, I don’t suppose they’ll be too keen on sharin’ the recipe.” There is no law requiring them to disclose the content of products sold for medicinal purposes, apparently. Looks like ponies have no equivalent of a Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act. Even the earlier Pure Food And Drug Act might not have an equivalent: it would mandate labeling already.
• Silver Shill runs immediately upon being called out and is deathly afraid of Applejack. I expect that his involvement actually is illegal, or at least, he believes it is likely to result in violence for which Applejack will not be prosecuted. Seeing how he runs to hide behind Flim and Flam, the second is more likely, but I’m not really sure.
• Silver Shill’s table contains, among other things, wigs and faux facial hair.
• “If she keeps gallavantin’ around like a yearlin’, she’s apt to drop from exhaustion or worse!” This is actually the only use of the word “yearling” to denote a pony’s age, rather than Daring Do.
• Flim and Flam are aware of Granny’s aquapony career and her adverse reaction to water since. That had to have taken quite some research. In fact, that’s a lot of research to put in for a confrontation with Applejack that they could entirely avoid by not visiting Ponyville with their medical show at all. This only makes sense if the entire charade was deliberately targeted to later say, “Flim Flam Miracle Curative Tonic is Granny Smith-tested and Applejack-approved!” Vengeful brothers, aren’t they? If the placebo effect is not enough to help all the ponies who buy the tonic, Applejack’s reputation is ruined and the brothers win. And until that happens, they earn lots of money selling apple juice at highly inflated profit.
• Apples are playing in the water again, and this time the swing is two ropes threaded through a board rather than just one, and Applejack is swinging on it. Who replaced the swing and why?…
• Minuette and Twinkleshine are standing in line for the tonic, right next to Granny’s ghost dad.
• There’s a lanky, apparently teenage unicorn wearing tooth braces in line. Which is actually first show evidence that dentists are a thing.
• Lyra is a judge at the swim meet for some reason. And of course all the Canterlot Friends are watching.
• Notice that the swim meet is yet another regular festival-like event.
• Granny and Apple Bloom have had enough training to do passable synchronized swimming, and impress all three judges enough to get a prize, which implies that Flim and Flam were hanging out around town for an extended period – weeks, possibly an entire month. This episode has to overlap with others.
• “No more costumes for this pony.” Wait. So who’s doing his part in the medical show, then? Or did he get promoted because the task of convincing Applejack to play along is complete, and his part in the show is simply no longer needed, now that the tonic is Applejack Approved?
• And here’s Applejack’s Chest of Harmony Key epiphany moment: Applejack makes the choice between honesty and family attachment, selecting honesty. This motivates Silver Shill to do the same – notably, her previous dawdling motivated him also, though, to do the opposite. The souvenir she gets is the first bit Shill earned as a salespony.
• “Oh, don’t worry. I’ll track down the pony I sold that worthless tonic to and give him another bit to replace this one! Honest.” But wouldn’t he have to honestly earn one first? A nice sentiment, but improbable.
• Applejack is shown writing her experience down in the Friendship Journal, and Flim and Flam are shown running away as it happens, suggesting that the Journal record concludes the same day when she got the key souvenir. As usual, the record matches verbatim the one in the printed journal, but the page layout does not, and neither does the pencil color.

Some analysis

Mostly, more questions. Flim and Flam tend to generate lots of those, see all the discussion related to Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000.

• The strangest thing about this episode is that Ponyville contains suffering sick ponies in significant quantities, when it was previously demonstrated to have a well-equipped hospital, capable of treating injuries like broken wings handily, and other towns were also presented as having such facilities. This is a rather glaring contradiction that needs to be resolved.
• One other thing I don’t get is that all those ponies somehow became aware of the Flimflam medical show, but the first thing the Apples heard of it was seeing the crowd of ponies traveling towards it. How exactly could that happen? Is the ghost of Granny’s dad involved? Because I’m pretty sure this is a calculated scheme targeting the Apples anyway.
• Was anything that Flim and Flam and Silver Shill did actually illegal? Applejack’s statements imply that consumer protection laws don’t exist, but I doubt the laws prohibiting commercial fraud do not. So why exactly is Silver Shill so scared of Applejack, but expects Flim and Flam to protect him?
• What exactly is the deal with Granny and Manehattan and the Oranges, anyway?
• Chronologically, this episode had to have taken a substantial time, probably in summer, and has to overlap with several others, as it contains substantial gaps requiring the passage of time. All of this time, Flim and Flam would be in Ponyville, but they would have to somehow avoid the rest of the Mane 6, who would get involved in the situation. Yet they never get involved and never even appear on screen throughout the episode. How did it happen?

Comments

[Comnislasher]

The strangest thing about this episode is that Ponyville contains suffering sick ponies in significant quantities, when it was previously demonstrated to have a well-equipped hospital, capable of treating injuries like broken wings handily

People who don't trust hospitals, doctors and official medicine exist. Maybe same here?

[Oliver]

4717859

Maybe, but then there’s the second point – all of these ponies trust Flim and Flam and find out about them before the Apples do…

[hawthornbunny]

A perfectly healthy-looking, if crazed-eyed Lyra.

I think her stomach was making the rumblings that only hands could satisfy

[Comnislasher]

4717863
Well, from my personal experience people who don't believe in official medicine tend to believe in all sort of snake oils and grandma spells.
I meet a guy who genuinely believes that vaccination is some sort of overarching World Government plot to control birth and to maim infants. And in same time believe that you can cure any alignment by healing herbs and ESP.

[Oliver]

4717873

Our best estimate is that Ponyville has a population on the scale of 4000 ponies. That’s rather a lot of disbelievers in official medicine in one place, don’t you think?

[Comnislasher]

4717885
Well, it either Ponyvile hospital for some reasons closed up or start to be very shitty on its job :).

[bookplayer]

Having not seen the episode in a while, I can't say for sure whether the diving was supposed to take place in Manehattan, but the whole escapade is a reference to the diving horse attraction popular at the Atlantic City steel pier (and made famous in the 1990's movie Wild Hearts Can't Be Broken.) It may be that either a pony version of Atlantic City resembled Manehattan during Granny's youth, or that those kinds of entertainments were most popular in major cities.

[howard035]

I bet the only other high-diver of Ponyville was Gran Pear, who tried it a bit just to challenge Granny Smith out of spite.

Yeah, the fact that there was a classic snake-oil sales pitch in a town with a quite modern and effective hospital seems really weird. Maybe there was some big scandal just a week ago or something, and it is weighing on people's minds?

Technically, Flim and Flam's tonic was pretty healthy, just beets and apples. Once again they don't make a terrible product, they just suck at sustainable marketing. Considering all the infomercials out there for overpriced blenders, this could have been another successful device.

I'm still annoyed Shill got the Key instead of the brothers, which would have made it a more substantial and interesting episode.

[Oliver]

4718474

I bet the only other high-diver of Ponyville was Gran Pear, who tried it a bit just to challenge Granny Smith out of spite.

That does sound like it would be a thing. :)

Yeah, the fact that there was a classic snake-oil sales pitch in a town with a quite modern and effective hospital seems really weird. Maybe there was some big scandal just a week ago or something, and it is weighing on people’s minds?

Doesn’t look like it…

I did say above that I am pretty sure that this one is a calculated anti-Apple and specifically anti-Applejack scheme, aimed to damage Applejack’s reputation.

1. Flim and Flam know specific details of events that had to have occurred well before they were born.
2. Appearing in Ponyville again is inherently risky, especially now, when Applejack’s friend Twilight is a princess, while their reputation losses from the previous time they were here should greatly reduce whatever potential profits could have made it worth it.
3. Silver Shill gets promoted the moment Applejack can be construed to be endorsing the tonic.

So I’m pretty sure that they have indeed planned this start to finish:

1. Motivate Granny Smith and get her to try the tonic.
2. Bait Applejack into supporting it by accepting that placebo effects are beneficial.
3. Now Applejack is in zugzwang – if she reneges on her support she loses reputation, and if she doesn’t, either she loses reputation because a sufferer is not helped, or Granny gets up to something stupidly risky as is her wont. And the longer she dawdles, the worse it gets.

Now, is the appearance of so many suffering ponies normal if we assume the above is true? Probably not, it had to have been arranged somehow. But I doubt Flim and Flam have the resources to simply hire them. Here’s something else they can do:

They can advertise that their medical show will appear only in Ponyville, for a limited time, in other places, but not in Ponyville. This is why the Apples are not aware of the event, but the crowd marching towards it is: They know that the music means the show is starting, so they’re going towards it, and curious locals and tourists follow them beefing up the crowd. Notice in particular the Ancient Pegasus lady. She’s from Cloudsdale.

If they posted fliers in Ponyville about Flim and Flam anything, Apples would have come bearing pitchforks. :)

So probably, Ponyville does have a small population of ponies who don’t believe in medicine, or are simply not having any luck and success with it, and prefer folk remedies – Zecora has to make her money somehow – but in this crowd they’re actually a minority.

What this doesn’t explain is the fact that this kept on for at least several weeks, during which, Applejack’s friends would have to have gotten curious – they all have direct firsthoof experience with Flim and Flam, after all – and once they would get involved, everything would quickly come apart. If Flim and Flam could dig up information on Granny Smith, there’s no reason they wouldn’t have enough intel on the Mane 6 and therefore, they would know this would be a problem. This would work ideally if everypony but Applejack was away for, say, Equestria Games – only, every out-of-Ponyville episode of the season involves either Applejack or Apple Bloom…

I’m still annoyed Shill got the Key instead of the brothers, which would have made it a more substantial and interesting episode.

That would require them to be redeemed forever, though, wouldn’t it?

[howard035]

4718543

So I’m pretty sure that they have indeed planned this start to finish:

It does fit, and they have a financial motive to pay for their revenge.

That would require them to be redeemed forever, though, wouldn’t it?

No more than Discord. You'd have needed only minor edits to the Las Pegasus episode.

[Comnislasher]

Actually... If Flim and Flam create The Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000 by themselves then why they do small-time cons instead of inventing things? Or instead of trying to take Sweet Apple Acres from Apple family they could just lease Squeezy 6000 to them (or any other apple producers) and make steady money.

[Oliver]

4718607

See my writeup for Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000, and more importantly, the comments below that. Me, I am convinced that Flim and Flam are exactly what they say they are when they are introduced in the show for the first time: salesponies.

Conniving, cheating, swindling salesponies, but salesponies all the same, not inventors.

They never even claim to have invented anything, including the aforementioned machine, and all their other appearances, including secondary canon, involve rather primitive technology at best. They sure are capable of operating machinery, but the particular way the SSCS6000 fails, I believe, implies they did not design it themselves, at least, and were not aware of the potential failure modes.

[Comnislasher]

4718643
Well, even if they don't invent it themselves there still a big chance that they know a guy (or a girl) who create it. They can use this mobile cider factory for making money without using it in their scam scheme. Yes, maybe they got less money at the moment but faaaar more in the long run. And if they hire its creators and give him a steady budget there chance he or she can create something even better. There a real chance to make mountains of bits and maybe even create a company. But these two? They tried to pull a scam, broke SSCS6000 and ended up with nothing. IMO Flim and Flam suck at business sense.

[Meta Four]

What’s interesting is that Flim and Flam clearly have some familiarity with the Apple family, and act like they’ve met Applejack before, but at no point do FlimFlam unambiguously reference the events of “Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000”. Which is consistent with my pet theory that FlimFlam are time travelers from the future, who keep jumping further backwards in time.

4718543
As far as Flim & Flam deliberately trying to ruin Applejack’s reputation, it’s worth noting that AJ only lies by half-truths and omissions here.

Apple Bloom: There you are! I've been lookin' all over! Did you find out what's in the tonic?
Applejack: Honestly, Apple Bloom... as long as it works, I... don't suppose it really matters.
[...]
"Jinx": Are you saying this stuff actually works?
Applejack: It seems to work for Granny.
Flim: You heard it here first, folks! Flim Flam Miracle Curative Tonic is Granny Smith-tested and Applejack-approved!

At no point does AJ actually say that the tonic works. Instead, shes uses hypotheticals and carefully-worded statements of true facts to imply that. And everypony treats these as lies, just as much as if AJ had joined in FlimFlam’s song on stage:

Silver Shill: I used to wonder if I was doing the right thing. You know, pretending to be cured, basically lying to folks about this tonic. But thanks to you, I realized that sometimes honesty isn't the best policy.
Applejack: Thanks to... me?
[...]
Applejack: I hate to disappoint everypony, but there's no way Granny could have made that dive, because this tonic is a fake!
[crowd gasps]
"Jinx": But you gave it your stamp of approval!
Rainbowshine: Are you saying you lied?
Applejack: ...I am.

None of that “Every explicit fact I told you was true, therefore I never lied—in spite of all the relevant details I neglected to mention” malarky that tricksters often use to justify themselves. Applejack is implicitly demonstrating that she believes half-truths are still lies. I think that’s why AJ’s reputation for honesty recovered so quickly after this incident. If she had insisted that FlimFlam exaggerated her approval for the tonic (which they almost certainly did), or claimed that she never technically lied to anyone, then ponies would have a much harder time trusting her again.

Which makes the bit from “Viva Las Pegasus”...

Applejack: And if I'm tellin' you he said it, you know it's the absolute truth because—
Flim and Flam: You never lie!

...even stranger.