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Oliver


Let R = { x | x ∉ x }, then R ∈ R ⟺ R ∉ R... or is it?

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Oct
29th
2017

Points of Canon: S4x03 - Castle Mane-ia · 4:49pm Oct 29th, 2017

ASRock mini-ITX motherboards aren’t what they used to be. Oh well.

But since I’m actually done slightly earlier than I worried I would be, let’s do another episode. This is quite an important one.

  • “I’ve gone through every book in Ponyville, Spike, and there isn’t a single mention of the mysterious chest that came from the Tree of Harmony, nor anything about keys to unlock it!” Not at all surprising – but notice that this is also important for Starlight’s stunts in The Cutie Re-Mark: Information on the Tree of Harmony is rare, if it isn’t actually classified.
  • “As you know, the ancient castle that I once shared with Princess Luna lies mostly in ruins, deep in the Everfree Forest.” Interesting that she never says she shared it with Star Swirl too, even though Legends of Magic #1 says so. Imagine how excited would Twilight be if she knew.
  • “But if you look carefully, you may find a book that could prove helpful to your research, hidden somewhere in what’s left of the castle library.” So why exactly was the library not evacuated? There are lots of possible answers, and only a few of them are actually good.
  • In some scenes, the roof over the library is destroyed, while in others at least some remains. Rainfall would destroy paper entirely in a thousand years, unless it was magically protected up the wazoo. See similar complaints related to Friends Forever #35.
  • There are remains of an alicorn statue in the library. The face is quite masculine, far more horse-like than any known pony faces, and it does not resemble any known alicorns at all.
  • “This is the most daring dare anypony ever dared dare another pony to dare!” Notice that the competition involves being covered in bees, and in On Your Marks, Apple Bloom says she is allergic to bees. And allergies are often hereditary. I’d say Applejack is a lot more daring here.
  • “I’m gonna need my bees back.” Actually, how exactly did they get themselves covered in bees anyway? For that matter, this part of the competition is conducted on Sweet Apple Acres, which the beekeeper leaves with his bees. How did they entice the bees in there?
  • Bees obey a whistle signal from their beekeeper.
  • “Hmm, move the decimal, carry the 2, and…” Ponies have decimal points and use decimal. See RTAC #13
  • “I’d love to stay and keep keeping score, but I promised to help test the new school bell. I get to ring it all week, nonstop!” Notice that Pinkie isn’t actually doing that in the episode, and nobody wonders why would the school want the bell to ring all week non stop. In fact, in the end of the episode, Applejack acts like she honestly expected Pinkie would be permitted to ring the bell non-stop for the entire week.
  • “It is… star-spider season, after all.” We see the star-spiders on screen, infesting the castle library, but never find out what is special about them and if they are actually dangerous or just scary.
  • “I’ve heard rumors that the Castle of the Two Sisters is filled with the most gorgeous of ancient tapestries in all of pony history!” Actually, where could Rarity possibly hear those rumors? In Princess Twilight Sparkle, even Zecora was surprised to know the Tree of Harmony exists, which means she hadn’t explored the castle either. Who did?
  • As Rarity and Fluttershy approach the castle, the camera pans through the hall where the Elements used to be which they do not enter. This is exactly the hall from Friendship is Magic, but notice that it isn’t the hall from the flashback in Princess Twilight Sparkle.
  • “I don’t think I’ll need all these candles, Twilight.” Some candles survived a thousand years. I wonder how. You’d think someone would eat them.
  • “When I was just a filly, Granny Smith told me of an ancient legend. When Nightmare Moon was banished, not every last bit of her dark magic went with her. Granny used to say, when night falls on the castle, that magic takes the form of… the Pony of Shadows!”

    • And to think that John Haber, the principal author of the entire Shadow Play mess, also wrote this particular episode.
    • Legends regarding the activities of the Nightmare Moon exist at least in Central Equestria.
  • Where exactly did that flash of lightning come, when there’s no rain? This happens several times throughout the episode, including cases where ponies are out under the open sky and there definitely is no rain.
  • It’s interesting that the trapdoor Rarity and Fluttershy fall through is triggered by a pressure pad that is not part of the trapdoor, making it unlikely anyone would trigger it on themselves. What, exactly, would be the logic behind this one?
  • There are three surviving pictures on the wall, and one of them is the same stallion in epaulets and with numerous decorations on a sash across his chest. Just who is this guy? This picture had to have been around for a thousand years, and yet, the same one can be observed in a train car in MMMystery on the Friendship Express. Come to think of it, this is one of the very few clear examples of decorations not worn around the neck.
  • “The Journal of the Two Sisters” Notice that the cover of the printed Journal looks roughly similar but isn’t particularly close.
  • “It’s just a dark hallway full of… disembodied pony legs.” It’s interesting that the human version of such a decoration would be holding the torch in the hand. Pony legs don’t.
  • I think this has to be one of the very early examples of individually mobile feathers on pegasi - Rainbow covers her face with her wings and slides the feathers apart to peek between them.
  • “I love to duck behind the paintings, and though the Hall of Hooves still gives her a bit of a fright, the trap door slide is Luna’s favorite. Soon the Organ to the Outside will be finished. I can hardly wait.” The printed Journal contains this phrase exactly. Just like the illustrations that Twilight is looking at in this moment, though they are a few pages away from where she is reading. Also, the ones in the printed Journal are painted in and are in a different order.
  • Pinkie plays the organ. Notably, prior to XIX century, organs were typically powered by manually pumped bellows, eventually being displaced by other sources of wind. Some magic is probably involved in keeping this one working.
  • “This castle is thousands of years old, and half of it was destroyed by Nightmare Moon.” To be fair, I’m pretty sure Twilight has no clear idea when exactly was the castle built. The printed Journal mentions no dates whatsoever.
  • I mentioned the mismatched damage to the throne room when discussing Princess Twilight Sparkle, so I won’t dwell on that, but here’s that moment when you can see it: when Rarity finally finds the tapestries she likes.
  • Notice that Rarity picks the lunar tapestry to restore first, rather than the solar one.
  • Every suit of armor Applejack and Rainbow encounter includes a horn on the helmet, and no wing holes or covering. Notably, tails are armored separately and have barbs on them, see tailikinesis.
  • One of the chords on the organ triggers the lunar throne to toss Rarity out into the courtyard. Needless to say, the Journal has Luna throw Princess Platinum out in the same manner.
  • But another chord produces a fresh bowl of carrots for Angel. I wonder how that works.
  • “Alright, everypony, stop!” I think that this is the first time Twilight uses this mass immobilization spell.
  • “What’s… the Pony of Shadows?” “Oh, that’s just an old ponies’ tale.” Which would imply Twilight knows the legend of the Pony of Shadows, doesn’t she? I wonder how did it happen that Rainbow did not. For that matter, Pinkie doesn’t recognize the name either.
  • For some reason, the organ is decorated with pegasi statues, rather than alicorns or unicorns or anything else.
  • The cloak Pinkie is wearing is the same flash asset that was later used for Tirek’s cloak, which was used in a number of conspiracy theories. Notice that Pinkie refers to it as “the tarp I was gonna use to gather flowers,” though.
  • “Did you know I can totally play the organ? Because I didn’t!” Presumably, Pinkie didn’t play keyboard instruments before today.
  • “I swear, this is going right back where I found it just as soon as I’ve returned it to its former glory.” I’m pretty sure this would be the absolutely worst place to keep it, Rarity…
  • “Reading Celestia’s diary made it hard to be afraid, because I knew what it was like when she and Luna lived here.” It’s interesting that Twilight calls it “Celestia’s diary,” while it is titled the journal of “two sisters” and the printed version contains an equal number of entries penned by Luna.
  • “I’ve just thought of a great idea! Why don’t we keep a journal, just like the royal pony sisters?” Well, we all know how this mess ended, but it’s also an important chronology watershed.
  • “Heh, Shadow Ponies… How ridiculous is that?” We never exactly find out what this shadow with glowing eyes is. And while Shadow Lock is a good candidate, we don’t have enough information to place him there at the time.

Hmmm…

Comments ( 17 )
  • “Did you know I can totally play the organ? Because I didn’t!” Presumably, Pinkie didn’t play keyboard instruments before today.

Alternately, she knows how to play piano or some other keyboard instrument, but has no idea if that experience translates to playing an organ until she gives it a try.

Legends regarding the activities of the Nightmare Moon exist at least in Central Equestria.

This reminds of a bit in Luna Eclipsed, where in the Polish dub Zecora's story implies Nightmare Night is one night of the year when the spirit of NMM could leave the Moon and roam the land. I really liked it.

Where exactly did that flash of lightning come, when there’s no rain? This happens several times throughout the episode, including cases where ponies are out under the open sky and there definitely is no rain.

Luna is being dramatic somewhere neaby?

One of the chords on the organ triggers the lunar throne to toss Rarity out into the courtyard. Needless to say, the Journal has Luna throw Princess Platinum out in the same manner.

I have always wondered on whether it was Celestia or Luna who originally had this mechanism installed.

“Alright, everypony, stop!” I think that this is the first time Twilight uses this mass immobilization spell.

It was.

Interesting thing about the decimal: in the debate over whether ponies use a base ten system, if you say they don't you pretty much have to believe they're not speaking English and we're hearing a translated version, so that when we hear "thirteen" they're actually saying "eight and five" or something. But the word "decimal" is explicitly base-ten, so even if the characters are just neighing the entire time, they have to be counting things in base-ten.

After Shadow Play, is there any reason not to believe Granny Smith's origin of the Pony of Shadows as leftover shadow that got sheared off when Luna was banished?

How's this for a theory: A young Granny Smith, who we know was willing to explore the Everfree Forest in her youth, stumbled upon the Everfree Castle. She explored a bit, than ran into the Pony of Shadows without their disguise. If the Pony of Shadows is excess dark magic from Nightmare Moon, I could totally see it looking pretty much like Nightmare Moon herself, except made of pure shadow. Granny does the smart thing and runs right out of there and back to town. She tells everyone
A) The Everfree Castle has some beautiful tapestries in it.
B)There's a big dark shadowy alicorn lurking in that castle. Given the legends known about Nightmare Moon and the Mare in the Moon, Granny is able to guess what that thing is.
C) Maybe if they build a statue that looks like the alicorn about halfway between the Castle and the edge of the forest and bring it candy once a year, it will be content to stay in the Everfree and not sneak into town and eat the foals. Hey, just so the kids don't get too scared, let's turn that night into one of our many festivals! You can guess how things go from there.

Nobody outside of Ponyville believes the weird stories of a shadow alicorn, but maybe they start getting in one the fun once the costumes and games proliferate.

4711558

After Shadow Play, is there any reason not to believe Granny Smith’s origin of the Pony of Shadows as leftover shadow that got sheared off when Luna was banished?

Actually, yes.

  • Assuming From The Shadows is true, Twilight’s words in particular would have to be interpreted as her knowing the legend of Stygian at this time. In which case, the term “Pony of Shadows” cannot refer to any particular shard of Nightmare Moon. It could be that Twilight and Granny Smith are referring to completely different creatures that just happen to share a name, of course, but…
  • …so let us assume that this particular “Pony of Shadows” is in fact a part of Nightmare. That would mean that this creature is still at large. Twilight and company have visited the castle multiple times after this, and it never made itself known except by being ominous to us but not to them – as far as I can tell, every instance that actually scares the Mane 5 is Pinkie, except the last one, which, at the same time, does not scare the Mane 6. Why?
  • For that matter, if it is a shard of Nightmare, how did it avoid getting absorbed into the Nightmare when she was camping at the castle upon her return?

And if you dismiss this last scene with the glowing eyes as somepony’s imagination, there’s no reason to think the “Pony of Shadows” is anything but imagination at all.

I’m sure there’s a prettier piece that can fit this particular hole, but maybe that’s just me.

4711558

But the word "decimal" is explicitly base-ten, so even if the characters are just neighing the entire time, they have to be counting things in base-ten.

Back when computers been significantly less powerful that they are now I knew a guy who counts everything in hexadecimal. "It's more convenient for me", he said. What I want to say... Maybe ponies start with octal and then for some reasons move to decimal?
It's not like this don't have precedents in our world. IIRC ancient Egyptians used base 12 and crazy guys in Babylon used base 60.

4711622

Assuming From The Shadows is true, Twilight’s words in particular would have to be interpreted as her knowing the legend of Stygian at this time.

Can you be a bit more specific? I just read through the 3 comics, and I couldn't find anything Twilight said in there that seemed to indicate she already knew the stories of the Pony of Shadows.

 as far as I can tell, every instance that actually scares the Mane 5 is Pinkie, except the last one, which, at the same time, does not scare the Mane 6. Why?

My guess is that the shadow fragment is weak, and doesn't have the power to actually harm anyone, so he just scares ponies when he can. But he recognizes these 6 ponies as dangerous from the last time they were in the castle, so he hides from them except when he sees a chance to scare them with impunity, from a distance.

For that matter, if it is a shard of Nightmare, how did it avoid getting absorbed into the Nightmare when she was camping at the castle upon her return?

Do we actually think NMM was in the castle for more than a few minutes at a time? Either way, after a thousand years of independence, my guess is that such a being would want to remain independent rather than be re-absorbed, so would simply hide from NMM.

4711782 That makes some sense. Ponies would seem unlikely to originally have a base-ten system without fingers. I bet they had base-8 or something, and learned base-10 from the minotaurs.

4711840
I doubt that they able to learn decimal from minotaurs. Mostly because they only have four fingers on their hands.

4711847
8 fingers and 2 horns.

4711838

Can you be a bit more specific? I just read through the 3 comics, and I couldn’t find anything Twilight said in there that seemed to indicate she already knew the stories of the Pony of Shadows.

She did say in this episode though: As soon as the “Pony of Shadows” is mentioned, Twilight immediately recognizes the name.

She has never interacted with Granny Smith on screen. :)

Do we actually think NMM was in the castle for more than a few minutes at a time?

I’m pretty sure I put forward a logic from which it follows that she spent most of the night there. See discussions for Friendship is Magic PoC.

Either way, after a thousand years of independence, my guess is that such a being would want to remain independent rather than be re-absorbed, so would simply hide from NMM.

I don’t think it’s feasible to hide from someone who essentially uses the environmental hazards of Everfree to control the entire forest.

4712198

As soon as the “Pony of Shadows” is mentioned, Twilight immediately recognizes the name.

Ah, my mistake.

She has never interacted with Granny Smith on screen. :)

Quite true. But assuming stories of this local legend were ever written down in the newspaper or historical journals, etc, isn't it likely there would be records about it in the library Twilight lives in? I mean, I bet somewhere in the Pine Barrens library are at least a few references to the Jersey Devil.

I’m pretty sure I put forward a logic from which it follows that she spent most of the night there. 

Yeah, it does make sense as a logical base of operations. If I returned 1,000 years in the future, I would probably hide out in my home until I'd gotten the lay of the land for a few days, even if it was falling apart.

I don’t think it’s feasible to hide from someone who essentially uses the environmental hazards of Everfree to control the entire forest.

There I'd have to disagree. NMM doesn't need to have magical omnipresence over large parts of the Everfree forest (something that would probably be spectacularly difficult, since the two most powerful beings in the world are already exerting magical area effects nearby). I assume the Mane 6 took the most direct traversable route between Ponyville and the Everfree, so NMM just had to trap that route.

Another possible explanation: To me it seems feasible that as soon as she returned to the Everfree Castle after her big declaration at town hall, she would immediately scry on that one purple pony that recognized her. If she caught the Mane 6's conversation in the library, or even just spotted them headed into the forest, NMM could just keep a scry on them after that point, or just try and stay ahead of them in shadow form as she set traps.

Which is all a roundabout way of saying I don't think NMM had a big widespread sensory "net" that would have picked up the presence of her shadow if it was say, hiding in the basement, or the library, near the powerful cursed magical books.

While we're considering Shadow Lock (since he is an alternate candidate for Pony of Shadows), is he considered of noble blood since he inherited a castle? Does the fact that he has a castle but doesn't use a title add more support to the limited nobility theory?

4712508

Another possible explanation: …

You asked if there was any reason not to believe this is a shard of Nightmare Moon. You can theorize in any direction, and get reasonably good results, but they don’t exactly dismiss the above cited reasons: There isn’t enough information to conclude one way or the other, and actually, none of the options are problem-free. And neither of them make a particularly good story either:

  • So there’s a ghost of Nightmare Moon hanging around in the castle and not doing anything or venturing out, ho-hum.
  • So there’s a crazy unicorn hanging out in the castle wiping books for some reason.

Meh, if you ask me.

Which is all a roundabout way of saying I don’t think NMM had a big widespread sensory “net” that would have picked up the presence of her shadow if it was say, hiding in the basement, or the library, near the powerful cursed magical books.

She needed that sensory net, or she would miss Celestia sneaking in for a surprise attack.

4712895 I suppose I did lose sight of the question of "what makes a good story."

Actually you have a point, a crazy unicorn hanging around the castle is a lot more interesting than Granny Smith's legend being true, because if I'm right and it is true, it's just a cowardly shadow that hides away and plans to do that forever. But if it's Shadow Lock, we know he goes on and does other future stuff, which makes it interesting what he got up to in the Everfree Castle.

She needed that sensory net, or she would miss Celestia sneaking in for a surprise attack.

Ahh, you're saying that Celestia fled in the opener, and after giving a quick speech NMM retreated to the throne room to guard the Elements against Celestia returning for them, so she would set up some kind of wide-ranging magical sensory network to spot Celestia approaching from any angle, I think. With that kind of motivation I could indeed see NMM putting in the effort to build such a sensory net, though I don't know if it would be able to penetrate throughout the heavily warded Castle.

4713501

Ahh, you’re saying that Celestia fled in the opener, ...

Just check out this comment, where I spelled this logic out in detail. :pinkiesmile:

4713517 Ah, I hadn't seen that comment, it gives a lot more perspective on what you mean by a sensory net.

Pinkie didn’t play keyboard instruments before today.

Playing organ is very different from playing other keyboards. Large pipe organs like the one shown here usually have two or three keyboards, controls for the stops, and a set of pedals that, unlike on a piano, are actually separate notes from the keyboards. Though I have to wonder how you could play pretty much any non-percussion instrument except maybe trombone with hooves.

4727015

The magical physiology of hooves allows some really strange things, apparently.

And yeah, I guess I’ll have to do a post on pony physiology eventually…

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