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Let R = { x | x ∉ x }, then R ∈ R ⟺ R ∉ R... or is it?

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Aug
27th
2017

Points of Canon: Legends of Magic #3 · 2:47pm Aug 27th, 2017

And another one.

This is the particularly interesting one.

Framing story

  • Sunburst starts reading Mistmane’s story in Star Swirl’s study. Notably, he talks to himself the entire time. Or to us, but mostly, to himself.
  • Sunburst is aware of Mistmane’s base story given in Campfire Tales and recognizes the name immediately.
  • What, exactly, is a picture of Star Swirl doing on page one, especially a picture actually talking to the reader? Either the book actually is enchanted to require specific conditions to read, as Sunburst believes – which is an interesting idea by itself – or Sunburst is losing sanity. Frankly, after the previous installment, I can’t discount either possibility.
  • Sunburst does not like sunshine, and finds grass itchy.

Inner story

  • Mistmane “went throughout the land spreading beauty to every corner of Equestria,” however this does not tell us much of anything because this comic series erodes the limits of “Equestria” ever further.
  • “Including one adventure where she solved a problem even I could not,” Star Swirl narrates. Notably, we never see him actually try, it’s as if he never concerns himself with the details past the initial planning.
  • Mistmane talks to the animals like it’s nothing.
  • The place where Mistmane has arrived to is openly marked as “Future site of Canterlot Castle,” and notably, we see no city anywhere nearby. That does not preclude the city from existing already, but it does have interesting consequences for the question regarding the original location of Unicornia.
  • “That stone weighs a few tons!” I wonder which particular tons are these. I also wonder why construction ponies are wearing armor and chain mail.
  • The “forepony” – not a foreman, you’d think they’d keep it straight – has a ring in his ear, and his cutie mark is two crossed bones. How do you get to be a forepony with a cutie mark like that is anyone’s guess.
  • The statement is that Star Swirl the Bearded is bankrolling a new castle “for the princesses.” The reason why do they need a new castle is never elaborated.
  • I haven’t seen a proper European hedgehog in Equestria since, well, forever. Here’s one.
  • “I am Princess Luna of Equestria. This castle is being built for my sister an me.”
  • “You animals, you put those things back right now! … I am your princess.” I.e. Luna basically proclaims that she is the princess of the animals too, though by what right she never elaborates.
  • “Well, I don’t speak bear!” Luna did manage to speak with her manticore as per the Journal, though, even though she claimed not to speak manticore back then either…
  • Mistmane leaves the scene without ever telling Luna her name. Star Swirl later reports that he only conjectures that Mistmane was involved with the whole story, and it took weeks for Luna to remember telling Star Swirl about seeing a “strange hooded pony.”
  • This would have to be the second castle Luna designs, wouldn’t it. The solution eventually settled on is to have a large garden, retaining the animals inside, and build around them. Which significantly damages most extant theories regarding why they are so bloody skittish in The Best Night Ever – yes, it has been a thousand years, but this is definitely not a “private, exclusive” place by nature.
  • “So you expect us to believe that you flew out here and spoke to animals, even though you’ve never been able to do that before?” Full stop. Comics did acknowledge the existence of Melvin the Manticore just recently, in Friends Forever #35. Celestia could never say this line if Melvin currently exists, or existed in recent memory, but both sisters have their marks. I’m not sure which way this contradiction is resolved best. Classical period forgery sounds more and more likely.
  • The final shape of the castle as constructed is pretty much identical to the one seen in the show.
  • Star Swirl mentions a “magical ficus.” I wonder if that’s the name for ficus religiosa in Equestria. Because what else.

Framing story

  • Just noticed it: The brim of Sunburst’s hat has a hole for a horn. In fact, this is also a conical hat and it also has a bell. So if these are in use in modern day… Why doesn’t anyone recognize them on Twilight in Luna Eclipsed?
  • Sunburst’s behavior by the end with recognizing Mistmane in random shadows has me seriously worried about his sanity.

This one is… problematic:

  • Canterlot Castle turns out to have been built way after the RPS Castle, which is contrary to prevailing assumptions. That is in itself not much of a problem, because I have evolved a very similar conclusion from unrelated data. But…
  • This text contradicts other secondary canon in small things left and right.
  • Sunburst behaves like he’s going insane the entire time reading it.
  • Even from the inner structure it’s clear that Star Swirl invented most of it – there is no guarantee whatsoever the hooded unicorn was in fact Mistmane.
  • We never know what was wrong with the old castle or why the move was never finished – the old library remained in place.
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Comments ( 7 )

Hm... So comics either make fun on Celestia but almost never on Luna and in this comics not only they make Luna super-important but again portray Celestia as some sort of a jerk. I have vague suspicion that some of IDW artist don't like Celestia in general or a little to deep in this "Luna the best princess" shtick.

I also wonder why construction ponies are wearing armor and chain mail.

Safety gear of the era had yet to specialize between civilian and military use.

Which significantly damages most extant theories regarding why they are so bloody skittish in The Best Night Ever – yes, it has been a thousand years, but this is definitely not a “private, exclusive” place by nature.

All the more perplexing given how Fluttershy explicitly describes it as a "private, gated garden" in "The Ticket Master." Though she might have been echoing rumors.

And yeah, this entire issue may end up on the "dubious" pile. When the book starts narrating to you of its own volition, you should probably seek independent confirmation. And psychiatric help.

The statement is that Star Swirl the Bearded is bankrolling a new castle “for the princesses.” The reason why do they need a new castle is never elaborated.

You can never have enough castles. :trollestia:

There's definitely some timing inconsistencies on the castles. Is it possible they are actually being built simultaneously?
Two things I'm thinking about here: 1) In Medieval Europe they would sometimes take a century to build a cathedral, because the church used it as a social works project, IE whenever there were an excessive amount of unemployed peasants around, that's when it was time to pay to finish the narthex or a buttress or whatever.
2) The Everfree castle and the Mount Canterhorn castle have distinct, though overlapping purposes. Of course, both of them are meant to be living quarters for the Regal Sisters. But the Everfree Castle is also meant to guard the tree below it. And the castle in the middle of the deadly forest works only when the Princesses are teenage superheroes who recieve occasional diplomats, but mostly just use it as a home base between flying around fighting monsters. The Justice League can get by just find with a citadel in space.

Canterhorn castle, on the other hand, is more accessible to petitioners (still up a mountain, but no dodging monsters on the way up said mountain). At it's immense height it may offer some magical benefit in raising the sun and moon, and as a political statement it has immense value, since it can probably be seen from a third of the country, almost. Starswirl says that one day Celestia will rule Equestria, in a way she doesn't during the period of the Journal, but that we know she someday will. He's building this castle in preparation for that day, since he knows the Everfree Castle is inadequate for that purpose.

Luna basically proclaims that she is the princess of the animals too, though by what right she never elaborates.

It's an interesting point. At what point does the government of Equestria assert formal authority over non-ponies? The "Three Tribes" each only claimed authority over their own, that's what a tribe means. When they first founded Equestria, they formed a unity government, but that's just combining the three tribes into one. Newer immigrants to existing Equestrian settlements is easy, but these animals are only a generation or two past the founding of Equestria.

  • The “forepony” – not a foreman, you’d think they’d keep it straight – has a ring in his ear, and his cutie mark is two crossed bones. How do you get to be a forepony with a cutie mark like that is anyone’s guess.

I think he got a Klingon promotion based on the tragic accident that happened to the previous foreman.

Classical period forgery sounds more and more likely.

Big picture here: I feel like it's pretty sweeping to declare the Journal and the Legends of Magic series both forgeries. We're basically covering the entire historical record with the same brush. I can see there are systematic problems with the sources, but I think we should really pick one or the other as a forgery, especially since most of the contradictions we find in one are with the other source.

4650135

There’s definitely some timing inconsistencies on the castles. Is it possible they are actually being built simultaneously?

Unlikely: Legends of Magic #1 has Luna and Celestia hang out in the place explicitly labeled as the first castle – completed – at just about the same age.

Two things I’m thinking about here: 1) In Medieval Europe they would sometimes take a century to build a cathedral, because the church used it as a social works project, IE whenever there were an excessive amount of unemployed peasants around, that’s when it was time to pay to finish the narthex or a buttress or whatever.

Our sources hardly ever show more than five construction workers per project. We don’t really know whether that is indicative of anything or not, because camera is allowed to lie – turn it just the right way and you don’t see the crowd just off the right edge of the frame eating lunch.

  1. The Everfree castle and the Mount Canterhorn castle have distinct, though overlapping purposes. Of course, both of them are meant to be living quarters for the Regal Sisters. But the Everfree Castle is also meant to guard the tree below it.

You’d think they would put gates on the cave.

That said, I do agree that the construction of the Canterlot castle means that the Sisters are going public. The really interesting – and so far unknown – part is how this shift in priorities came about.

I think he got a Klingon promotion based on the tragic accident that happened to the previous foreman.

You mean he ate him. That’s what his cutie mark is for, right?

I can see there are systematic problems with the sources, but I think we should really pick one or the other as a forgery, especially since most of the contradictions we find in one are with the other source.

Notice however, that even the characters in the framing story agree that the Legends are implausible fiction.

Actually, if you assume Sunswirl, it doesn’t have to be a forgery at all.

4650294

Unlikely: Legends of Magic #1 has Luna and Celestia hang out in the place explicitly labeled as the first castle – completed – at just about the same age.

Maybe not exactly at the same time, but Starswirl could have started the second castle before the first one finished.

Our sources hardly ever show more than five construction workers per project.

And there's also the rock farmers digging up all that building material. But yeah, it's hard to ascribe complex economic motives on such a simple scene.

You’d think they would put gates on the cave.

They definitely should have, but the two teenage fillies who designed it were more focused on trap doors apparently.

The really interesting – and so far unknown – part is how this shift in priorities came about.

Agreed. I think this comic suggests Starswirl was planning this whole post-tribal council succession of government, almost as soon as he found Celestia and Luna. As part of that he pushed them to go public. And of course, that kind of future knowledge lends a bit of credence to Sunswirl.

Actually, if you assume Sunswirl, it doesn’t have to be a forgery at all.

Again true. If Sunburst is in a time loop and he ends up recording these myths because he remembered reading them, a lot of inconsistencies would pop up over iterations.

The “forepony” – not a foreman, you’d think they’d keep it straight – has a ring in his ear, and his cutie mark is two crossed bones. How do you get to be a forepony with a cutie mark like that is anyone’s guess.

Skulduggery. 4650135

"Just noticed it: The brim of Sunburst’s hat has a hole for a horn. In fact, this is also a conical hat and it also has a bell. So if these are in use in modern day… Why doesn’t anyone recognize them on Twilight in Luna Eclipsed?"

Sunburst is a shut-in nerd who does know about Swirlybeard. (Or, as running hypothesis goes, is him all along and this is The Hat…and these legends are perhaps imprinted with "go back in time and close the loop you dummy" geasa.)
Or the Canterlot "friends", being th only CSGU alumnae around who might pick up on it, are Not On Speaking Terms with Twilight and happy to watch her suffer. Frequently.

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