Aug
17th
2017
Wherein Sky does not talk about "Fame and Misfortune"... · 11:58am Aug 17th, 2017
...at least, not directly.
An overview of the various discussion threads on the topic of this episode reveals some strong feelings and opinions that are approaching the "entrenched" level. Also, there's nothing I can say here about the episode itself that hasn't been said, elsewhere and better, by other parties.
What I will say, is this:
Do not let your zeal for advancing whatever opinion you have jeopardize your love and friendship toward your fellow human beings. When that happens, we truly have missed the point of the show.
That is all.
I'm a simple man. All I know is that I literally LOL'd while watching it.
Honestly, it's when stuff like this happens that really makes me not want to associate myself with the tag of 'brony'. The kind of reactions I've seen from people about this episode are absolutely ridiculous.
That's what it was missing, honestly. >.> A really teachable lesson at the end.
As I type this, I am watching the episode for the first time.
So far, the only thing I'm wondering is: Did they really just out Daring Do to the entire country by Friendship Journal?
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I will have to consult the mock journal in J2S to see how this topic was handled.
I was not expecting a conclusion with that kind of depth.
With depth, sure, but not that kind.
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Daring Do already published a version of that adventure, complete with National Hero and now Wonderbolt Dash in the cover art, so one wonders what there was left to out. I mean, Doctor Caballeron and his henchmen not only know that Daring Do is real, they know enough to search AK Yearling's house for artifacts and to show up at Daring Do conventions, so how important was it to keep her existence secret?
I'm guessing that, with a lack of modern electronic media to report on her and her adventures happening in distant locales, ponies just make the assumption that Daring Do is fictional in the same way that people might lose track of which cowboy movie heroes were fictional and which were based on real people.
finished
Okay, there were a couple of lines that were uncomfortably on point? And the setup for the conflict was a little lazy. But it got a few chuckles here and there, and I will be listening to that song on repeat for the next week, at least.
I'm not sure I see what the big deal is?
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For the perspective of someone who does find it to be a big deal, I refer you to Bad Horse's take on the matter.
4637866
Oh, I see.
(edited because kinda missing the point)
Well said. At the end of the day, no work of fiction is worth doing unpleasant things to nonfictional people. Especially not one that espouses the exact opposite.
I thought it was a great episode. I haven't enjoyed one this much in a long time.
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So does that make Daring Do Tom Mix and Rainbow Dash Wyatt Earp? or vice versa?
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It's amazing how much perceived authority that Patreon tag gives to your comments. I should get me one of those one of these days.
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Actually, that's an interesting point. Are ALL Daring Do's exploits secretly autobiographical, or merely some of them?
4637914
I'm kind of a big deal in the internet colorful horses scene.
Once again, thousands of bronies don't quite seem to grasp what message they are sending by shouting, "How dare you make fun of overly attached, demanding, emotionally volatile, hyper-critical, thin-skinned jerks?! I am personally insulted by this! Don't you see that making fun of assholes is exactly the same thing as making fun of bronies! They are one and the same!!"
4637944
I do see your point, but take care that you don't stop loving or being friendly to those you feel are misguided in this way. Disagree, of course, but do not stop loving. The message applies in all directions.
I always get a bit uncomfortable when people start assigning motives to the creative team of anything when they find a work upsets them. It's certainly understandable to do, and perhaps unavoidable in an in-depth critical examination of something, but I feel like it can also quickly lead to inflamed and intractable stances about a work.
For the episode itself, from what I saw I have no trouble believing what Larson suggested, that while it originated with him it wasn't really "his" writing that ended up in the episode. While some people see it as a precisely honed jab at the Brony fandom, I can easily see it as something more scattershot that might have veered off-course from the original intention. Plenty of the story fits a narrative about the simple hassles of fame... I've seen people try to interpret what happens to Pinkie, Applejack and Rainbow Dash as some kind of direct correlation about our specific fandom, but to me they're pretty basic tropes: Pinkie is typecast as the funny one, adoring fans won't let Dash have a moment's peace, and AJ has developed an entitled following that takes advantage of her nature. Two other cases are also pretty standard complaints brought on by fame: Twilight's complaint is that people care more about her fame and commercial potential than anything she has to say, and Rarity is torn down and judged by people who don't know her and simply assign her selfish motives to hate on her. These problems make up the majority of the plot, and could have easily been written by someone with no awareness of the Brony fandom at all... they all fit a basic "beware becoming famous" plotline.
It's really the Fluttershy scene that makes it "personal", if you will... and then a few lines thrown in to the crowd scene as well. And this is where the motive of the creators comes in and where I feel it may have unintentionally drifted off it's intended course. Was it supposed to be just a playful nod from the writers, or an intended slap at the fandom? Was it conceived from the beginning as a message to the older fans, or did the use of some meta elements end up overshadowing the original intentions? Did it drift in the making and end up losing its intended point to the power of a perceived slight?
I work in a collaborative, creative field on projects that can take years to complete and pass through scores of hands which add to them, as such I'm very much aware of how easily intended messages in a work can be lost and unintended meanings can be found by those that ultimately consume it. If we as an audience can't agree if something is done in playful good fun or as a bitter jab, then it's quite likely that the many people who work on the show likewise might disagree on where the line between the two is drawn, which makes determining where they intended to fall on that line even more problematic.
In the end, I think that it's perfectly right and reasonable to say that a work comes across as mean-spirited, dismissive, or even insulting to you, but I think that we set ourselves up for more anger if we assume it was naturally intended to be taken that way. It can be hard to give the benefit of the doubt to such works, but it's probably healthier for us in the long run.
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That, uh, seems like an unfair comparison. It reminds me of those religious folk who judge and abuse others, then when they get called out on it, say, "The Lord promised I would be persecuted for my beliefs." No, you're not being persecuted for believing something, you're being persecuted for being a dick to other people.
(For the record, my response to the episode was, "...Is this supposed to be judging me and my friends? Because I don't recognize this depiction at all.")
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So did I. I think all the butthurt people are just proving the episode's point.
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Not sure if I agree. This presumes that everyone whose feelings were hurt by this episode is that kind of fan, and over here "us normal fans" were able to laugh it off, which is a heck of a generalization.
4638196
I just don't see why people should get offended. The episode lambasted the folks who take things way too far. I mean, I may not be the most hardcore fan of the series of all time, but I've gone to some pretty extreme lengths in some regards, but never really to the points the episode highlighted. I, along with the dozen or so writers at Bronycon who watched the episode on Sunday, were laughing pretty hard for most of the episode.
4638208
As was I, don't get me wrong. My point is, I think we need to show compassion and understanding toward those who were hurt, rather than dismiss them as being overly sensitive. Just because one does not oneself see why people were offended doesn't mean that one can deny that they were, and I'm not sure it's my personal place to tell anyone who's hurting—for whatever reason—to merely deal with it and grow thicker skin in this case.
I can and do disagree with many of the conclusions people have drawn that they base their umbrage upon. But there are more than enough people weighing in with arguments and logic, most of them who are better at logic and arguments than I am. I have little new to offer on that front.
I am merely here to say the one thing I didn't see being said, which is, guys, don't be cocks to your fellow fans. In either direction. Of any dramaturgical issue we have ever, or will ever, experience.
That's all I was trying to say.
EDIT: I'm not saying that you are or were being this way, Gary; it just happened that I'm expressing this to the general public on a reply line to you. Just so we're clear.
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The ability to believe that criticism is not aimed at you is independent of whether that criticism actually applies to you or not.
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Yeah, I think that was my point, expressed more succinctly.
I mean, I've been absent from most of the fan reaction to the most recent season, but this looks like another one of those episodes that the knee-jerk defensive types in the fandom love to feel attacked over. I saw a couple lines that felt pointed, and the criticisms of Fluttershy and Rarity certainly reminded me of fan criticisms in the past.
I don't see any malice in the depiction though, and I think reading too deep into it looking for reasons to be upset is unnecessary.
I still really enjoyed the episode for what it was though, the Mane Six getting swarmed by fans and having to bear unrealistic expectations from perfect strangers was very entertaining. I especially loved Fluttershy in this, her standing up to the assholes harassing her was great.
Personally, I feel like the show's strongest point right now is inspiring fan continuities, rather than anything it can actually offer on its own. That's been somewhat true for its entire life, actually, but especially now that it's beginning to age?
Anyway, it seems silly to argue about what is and isn't canon in the sandbox; it can ultimately be however you interpret it, and I think that's actually the point of the entire franchise. If you don't like something in it, it doesn't have to stay that way. It can even be something to bond with people over, instead of fighting with them over which is better.
Mass producing their friendship journal in-universe! How toyetic can ya get?
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While not stated in words (after all, they had already sent the friendship journal off to the printers) there was a lesson content creators could take away, that what they do is worth it for the fans that do care, not the obnoxious fandumb that might spring up and make a fool of itself.
What the episode needed was an M.A. Larson expy as an editor to whom they could point the fans wondering about plot threads, as what people never seem to get time after time at convention Q&As is that the voice actors don't write these stories, they only act them out! Thanks, M.A. Larson.
...Wait, was this all foreshadowed by the Daring Do convention episode? Do Equestrians really write books about their real life adventures that often? That people then debate heavily?
(Besides, those Fluttercritics' concerns were all addressed with Fluttershy Leans In. Yay, character development that sticks!)
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Did RD actually put that in there? Pfffffttttt lol. I don't remember. That episode was so long ago. I'm sure fanfiction has it covered or will have it covered with a story of rabid fans pawing at the perimeter of AK Yearling's cottage like a herd of zombies.
Totally hear you, Skywriter. Like, I see these debates pop up, think I can throw in a few things or maybe even joke about. Such is the power of lurking. But then quickly decide to keep in lurk mode. Or just gallivant somewhere else. People are too tense. Too angry with each other. It's not worth pissing someone off about it, I believe. Hell, I get a little pissed off when I look at such debates. So it's best to not add more fuel to the fire. Let it burn itself out. Take away its power by simply not giving it attention.
Personally, I did find the episode funny as hell. I do rather enjoy a bit of self depreciative humour.
4637866 I was upset about it immediately after watching it, and it did kill my post-Bronycon buzz, but I'm not upset about it now. The world has since given me too many more-important things to be upset about.
What does still upset me is my repeated failure to state my position clearly, or to get across either the notion of Bayesian inference or the dichotomous nature of fan viewing distance. It is probably at least partly due to my tendency to use words like "dichotomous". Anyway, it's distressing to have an argument over a subject so constrained--22 minutes of animation--that we should be able to agree on what the evidence is and what the crucial points of contention are, and yet we can't. And it's upsetting how many people turned to insults. So it's upsetting on a meta-level.