Jul
23rd
2017
Points of Canon: S7x12 - Discordant Harmony · 12:21pm Jul 23rd, 2017
It’s a spoiler. I’m not in a mood to care, and won’t be until I can make new tDCS electrodes.
Deal.
Being an episode that mostly occurs within Discord’s pocket space, you would expect this wouldn’t introduce interesting and relevant canon tidbits – like Pinkie Pie, Discord has a habit of poking his head through the fourth wall, so nothing he is accustomed to can be assumed to be normal.
You would be wrong.
- Discord gives finger food a literal treatment. Unfortunately we don’t know if ponies habitually use the term “finger food” based on that. And let’s not forget the Sandwich Problem. Notably, later in the episode, when Fluttershy takes a bite from every sandwich, she never picks them up with her hooves.
- Those pillows depicting Discord and Discord+Fluttershy have to be embroidered, and I can’t help but wonder who did it, and more importantly, why. It’s sweet, but it does not seem to me like something you do to commemorate a friendship.
- That Fluttershy is not getting annoyed at Discord wiping his paws on a sheep suggests she knows the sheep is not an actual sheep and that most of Discord’s antics are illusory in nature. This is further supported by Discord shopping for tea party supplies and altering them, rather than creating them from scratch.
- Fluttershy makes a statement that this episode is the first time she visits Discord’s house. I expect no other pony has been inside prior to her, and on the appointed time, Discord teleports Fluttershy himself to get her to his door – notice that he does not have to see Fluttershy to do it. But he does get mail service there, as we know from Make New Friends But Keep Discord. So how do they do that?…
- It is very notable that throughout the episode, no pony reacts to Discord with fear or particular surprise. This can be explained away by them already knowing him. However, how exactly would this happen without them knowing that he is friends with Fluttershy? Every shopkeeper expresses doubts upon hearing the statement that he is, as if they don’t know it to be fact. Which means that Discord is independently active in town and was never introduced by Fluttershy to any of those ponies. This has a lot of bearing on portraying any interactions between Discord and Ponyville residents.
- Ponyville has a specialized tea shop. We know it’s in Ponyville, and not somewhere else, because the tea shop lady confirms that this is where Fluttershy buys her tea. Similarly, there’s a specialized tea wares shop, where they also know Fluttershy. Which is perfectly normal, because ponies like their tea parties, but here’s a thing – In Stare Master, Twilight had to go to Zecora to acquire her favorite tea. We do not have any proper evidence that Ponyville grew substantially between Season 1 and Season 7, and most popular establishments we see in town have been around from all the way back since then, though some of them did move. Still think it was tea Twilight was after?…
- “I’m sorry, do you validate?” Normally the unspoken noun in this phrase would be “parking.” However, we never see ponies park anything, and residents of Ponyville very rarely use vehicles in the first place. So what does it mean in this situation? Or is Discord just messing with the poor tea pony?
- We don’t see most of the Canterlot friends around, but Lyra and Lemon Hearts are there.
- Boom, headshot: The spa building is back in the town square, instead of its last known location across a stream in No Second Prances.
- I don’t think we’ve seen the insides of a party supplies shop before. More importantly, this shop has to be comparatively new: Back in Pinkie Pride, Pinkie would stock up on party supplies in open-air stalls.
- So upon attempting to “behave normally,” Discord finds that he is literally fading away, and Fluttershy has to chaos him back to reality. Notably, transforming into Accord, as seen in My Little Pony #48-50, did not trigger this effect. I’m not entirely sure what this says about Discord’s true nature.
- Discord’s toaster has an obvious power cord. Just thought I’d point that out.
- When nailing furniture to the ceiling, Fluttershy holds the hammer in her mouth and is wearing goggles for eye protection. These latter have to be plastic, and probably, polycarbonate. In our world, polycarbonates were discovered in 1898, but were not commercialized until the 50s – which continues the trend of ponies having shockingly advanced chemical industry. While she obviously found them in Discord’s house, there’s no doubt we’d see the same Flash asset elsewhere anyway.
- Once the cardboard box that Discord sent the singing ginseng teabags in “for a trip across Equestria” returns, it’s covered in stickers, presumably meant to represent postal services. Notably, several of these contain a crescent moon, while others, a bull’s head.
- Fluttershy does not find the idea of dunking a singing teabag into scalding hot water in any way revolting.
Chronologically this episode is confusing. The usual markers – Friendship Castle, Starlight Glimmer – never appear, and even Twilicorn does not turn up. The unusual markers, like the spa building, suggest this is actually an early episode – we don’t know when did the spa move yet, but there weren’t a whole lot of episodes during which Ponyville suffered through unscheduled rapid renovations, and most of them are far in the past. I also think it has to postdate Make New Friends But Keep Discord, for reasons of relationship progression, but it definitely does not have to.
P.S. I like the clerk ponies, they’re cute.
Yay, series return.
Fluttershy's tea shop doesn't necessarily have to be in Ponyville. She's a pegasus and thus mobile. Even Big Mac can go trapesing off to halfway to Manehattan for Apple deliveries.
I'm not sure how to assess the chronological position of this. As you say, it shoes signs of being early, but why are the shopkeepers so chill? This maY be essentially Doylist. Early series ponies were panicky herd animals. Recent episodes have largely replaced that with an even keeled blasé attitude.
4609825
It doesn’t, but it probably is: Discord visits, in order, tea shop, tea wares shop, party supplies shop, and passes through the Ponyville town square between the tea wares and the party supplies. He teleports instead of using the door, but he always does that. And party supplies shop is what stocks paper napkins. (See also The Silver Standard and the notion that Silver Spoon is a “tea party pony.”) It would be very odd for Fluttershy to shop for tea in one town while shopping for the napkins in another one.
Also, Fluttershy can hardly fly.
Notice that the old lady that Discord encounters immediately upon making the decision to host the tea party is also very chill.
That said, “early” is already smack between 3x10 and 6x06, so that would be “middle” of the series as of today, wouldn’t it?
Someone had to teach Pinkie Pie how to deliver those invitations.
The post office. "Because fuck your time and space, I have to get these letters delivered before three or it goes into overtime."
4609840
So she was a paper filly in her childhood? That would be cute. :)
4609869
Now imagine Derpy and Pinkie Pie as tiny little mail-fillies.
The continuity here is interesting, and I would very much like to place this early on as well. However, that's mostly hinging on the old spa location, and I just no longer have the confidence in this show to think that they'll keep a detail like that straight. For now, I'm counting this as being set earlier in the timeline, but I suggest watching out for the spa in future episodes. I have a hunch that it's going to keep showing up in its original location, and that we're just going to have to write off that one time it moved as a temporary thing.
4610010
I think that Oliver is exploring whether the Platonic Watsonian ideals - such abstractions as the location of the spa building in Ponyville from shot to shot - is warping the nominal Doylist expression of the show in a demonstrable and inadvertently consistent manner. An emergent discovery within the accidents of production, as it were.
4610207
I'm praying for some real meaning to emerge from this too. I just wouldn't hold my breath for it is all.
Hope you feel better soon, buddy.
This was a great episode. Most of this episode felt like it was built to feed shipping fuel at the same strength as one of those Applejack X Rarity duo episodes, cute but probably unintentional. But then at the end, where Discord is basically killing himself to make sure Fluttershy like spending time with him, and Fluttershy responds with "we make sense to me" I was honestly surprised. This may be scurrilously Doylist, but I felt like the writers were deliberately trying to write a romantic subplot and keep it just below the radar.
Fluttershy sewed the details of 5 Gala Dresses, so I'm sure she could embroider if she wanted to, I could see her doing it while staying up all night with a sick animal. Agree that it seems a bit much to commemorate a platonic friendship though....
Agreed. I think when Discord does things casually, especially when he doesn't even bother to snap his fingers, it's just a temporary illusion. The fact that Fluttershy asked Discord to clean up his magic on the way out suggests they have at least some staying power, or perhaps they just frighten animals.
Perhaps some brave mail pony asked Princess Twilight to send them through, she has the ability to reach into that dimension. I think that one mail-pony is still floating in the background in a shot of this episode, though.
Zecora's location and slightly complicated relationship with the town really only makes sense if ponies are sneaking out and buying things they are ashamed of from her, at least in the beginning. I could see "Zecora's Herbal Tea" as a code. On the other hand, a specialty tea shop and other specialty tea accessory shop make sense if Ponyville is rapidly growing, and also gentrifying as a Canterlot tourist trap, which I believe it is. And perhaps a new party supply shop as well.
Discord may be joking, or there may be parking rules on carriages ponies bring into shopping districts to carry their goods home, and merchants can validate that. Tourist traps do have really strict parking rules, generally.
This is huge. Among other things, it means Discord is medically required to cause chaos, which puts his previous actions against Equestria in a more sympathetic light. (Of course, the fact that he has survived years now without trying to overthrow the government means he never had to go that far in the first place, but how could Discord be sure of his exact minimal amount of chaos needed to survive?)
I believe it confirms that the Accord transformation was partially triggered by the outside magic of the star, which prevents Discord from disappearing as Accord.
Looks like Ponyville has postage trade with the land of the Minotaurs, and Luna has finally gotten her own stamp.
4610010
I think this episode has to be after the S6 Finale, and maybe after the S7 opener, for this reason:
Ponies in S5 still generally fear and dislike Discord, presumably because of the Tirek thing. But the S6 Finale had Discord save the world without really connecting him to Fluttershy, and being named a national hero with a fancy medal in a very public ceremony. That would explain the difference in attitude from ponies at large.
4610207
Not in so many words, but this is exactly what I’m doing.
4610249
Well, I did make new electrodes. I don’t particularly like the results, but the day I make something that doesn’t actually do what is written on the tin is yet to come.
Well, there are quite a few tiny things throughout, starting with those pillows, so yeah.
The fun question is, for what. Just what sort of medicinal would Twilight both need and find embarrassing to refer to directly in public?…
I think this also lends credence to the idea that Discord himself is not a natural being, but rather a created chimera.
“Star Swirl’s Monster” sounds more and more likely.
When, exactly, did he interact with anyone outside the Mane 6 there, though?
4610302
So are you using them to treat yourself for insomnia? Props for the technical skill, if I tried doing the same thing I'd probably just electrocute myself.
Twilight couldn't just purchase at the local mall
The compounded equivalent of Adderall
I was actually thinking the opposite myself. To me this seems to suggest that Discord is at his core an avatar of chaos, like the tree is an avatar of Harmony (or Order, but whatever). Discord serves chaos, like a high priest to a deity, and if he betrays the principles he is punished until he returns to the path of chaos. If he was a Frankenstein's Monster to Starswirl, it's harder to imagine where this trigger would come in. (Aside from the comics where he is shown as old as the dinosaurs, but of course Discord could have traveled backwards in time to meet them).
He interacted with Spike, who was terrified of him, the CMC, who were terrified and/or angry at him, and the other Gala guests, all of whom seemed afraid of him initially. Of course, Discord did startle Spike out of a nap, but even after Discord leaves Spike is shown to be panicked. The Mane 6 themselves, of course, all vary between amusement (Fluttershy and Pinkie Pie) and annoyance (the rest). Treehugger did not seem initially scared of Discord, but she was probably full of "Zecora's Herbal Tea" at the time.
4610723
Depression. SSRIs don’t work on me at all. MAOI do, but even the doctors don’t want to use these. tDCS turned out to be the only treatment that works symptomatically.
The minimum required circuitry is really primitive, and electrocuting yourself with 9v would be a feat famous through the ages. :)
Now you got me imagining Zecora as Walter and Pinkie as Jesse.
The counterargument to that is, if Discord is that easy to cut down, and yet, is an inevitable consequence of chaos as the Tree is of harmony, chaos is not a fundamental force.
Not really. Suppose Star Swirl has been experimenting with chaos magic – notice, as we’ve seen mentioned in the comics, that Discord does not have a monopoly on it. Star Swirl was trying to demonstrate that just as harmony is seen as life-giving, so can be chaos.
So he used it to animate a pile of random body parts he had lying around, finding that if he used two parts of the same species, it wouldn’t work…
This resulted in a highly magical creature who can only use chaos magic, requires it medicinally to live, and eventually got so powerful that a single alicorn is no match, transcending purely material boundaries and evolving into the current “chaos spirit” form.
He just pretended to be a mirror when that happened, which would shock more or less anyone.
Actually, I’m pretty sure nopony gasps or faints until they announce the Smooze. In fact, Twilight immediately offers to “take care of it” and asks Discord “What are you doing here with THAT?!”
Good luck buddy. I here they have great circuitry shops in Obscuria.
I would say it doesn't make Discord that hard to take down at all, he has to willingly reject chaos for it to be triggered. Being turned into Accord didn't do it, so apparently Discord has to choose of his own free will to reject chaos, as he appeared to be doing at least subconsciously, for him to start disappearing. Although it appears Discord has had friends in the past (Baast, ancient giant butterflies) none ever made him think he would have to give up chaos for them, or perhaps he chose chaos instead. I don't think its unrealistic to think that Discord has never been in the exact situation since the dawn of time that he is currently in with both Fluttershy and pony society at large. Of course, if Discord is some kind of fundamental avatar of the universe, and he rejected his own essence and disappeared, presumably another chaos avatar would form eventually. And maybe already has.
I could certainly see if the Tree of Harmony chose to reject harmony itself, the tree growing dark and crumbling. (Don't ask me how the tree would go about accomplishing this).
I think the idea of Discord as a Starswirl Creation does have some merit (or more likely, it's a final-stage Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde deal). But I have trouble seeing how it could grow so much more powerful than all the alicorns. Discord can rewrite reality, he's nearly omnipotent. I find it hard to believe that one mage, even one centuries old, could be so powerful unless he was actually a spirit. I think to be a spirit (which is just demigod for the easily-offended) you traditionally have some kind of divine mandate over a specific portfolio or area of responsibility.
The other thing is the Tree of Harmony. If the Tree and Discord don't exist to balance each other out, why does it exist? How did it decide to create the Elements of Harmony for say, Discord but not the Windigos?
Of course, all this speculating of mine isn't really based on evidence in the show, it's mostly based on my experience with myths and traditional pantheons, and they way they are shaped.
He does pop out of nowhere to startle ponies, but he does that in this episode too, popping in out of nowhere to startle the salesponies. They don't seem nearly as startled with it as people did in Season 5. Twilight seemed upset that Discord was invited at all, not just that he brought the Smooze.
Another possibility: This episode is set after What About Discord? where Discord is seen befriending 4 of the Mane 6. Now, we don't really see background ponies so blase about Discord in that episode, but if he was seen hanging out with local heroes a bunch it might explain why more Ponyville Ponies have stopped fearing him.
4610781
No they don’t, but mail order takes care of that.
Of course, Obscuria has legendarily bad postal service…
Simple: Be the only one capable of using an otherwise abundant and unexploited natural magic.
The word itself does not necessarily have this connotation.
There’s no Discord observed over in Pedestria, but there is the Stump of Harmony. Why shouldn’t it exist as a natural consequence of harmonic behavior?
There is no statement that it created the Elements specifically to defeat Discord. Do rewatch that scene in Princess Twilight Sparkle – they discovered “the only means,” and the whole scene implies the Elements existed beforehand.
Likewise, do rewatch that scene too. It’s pretty clear it’s the Smooze that is the upsetting agent this time.
Sorry 4610302, gotta side with 4610723 on this. While the show is certainly vague enough to support both interpretations, the Star Swirl's Frankenstein take does require a lot more suppositions and headcanon than just accepting that Discord is what he says he is. And moreover, it's pretty clear that Discord doesn't physically require chaos to live. He survived having his magic drained by Tirek, and he was also fine both as Accord and as a statue, two other times he was in no position to actually cause chaos. It really does seem like he needs to embrace chaos ideologically. Which, for a cosmic entity who literally embodies that concept, would make total sense.
Also:
I dispute this point. This is a questionable canonical source, coming from a music video which an unclear chronological placement, but we do have a Discord reference in the EG universe:
derpicdn.net/img/view/2014/6/18/656319__safe_screencap_captain+planet_discord_fluttershy_mystery+mint_twilight+sparkle_equestria+girls_perfect+day+for+fun_rainbow+rocks_background+hum.jpeg
What this implies lorewise, exactly, I have no idea. This could mean anything, and in all likelihood, it probably just means that EG Discord is a myth. But is it not incredibly fascinating that in a world where every other character is humanised (or dogified, in Spike's case) Discord is the one example of a character seemingly existing in their original shape?
4610758
Neither chaos nor harmony are fundamental forces, but rather are emergent phenomena, so in a way they're on an equal plane. Doesn't really speak to either's primacy or chronological order, either. Does Discord really have no origin story in the comics yet? Seems like the comics sort of story, I'd have thought they'd jump on that.
I like the idea of Discord as a sort-of-natural self-conjuration rather than an accident of Starswirl's, if only because I kind of feel that Starswirl is responsible for entirely enough nonsense in canon as it is; I know he's basically pony Merlin, but we have sufficient Morgan le Fay's to requirements, some villains can be their own responsibilities for a change.
And also, it opens up the space for headcanon for things like BookeCypher's Magical Mystery Oops!.
4610917
Which is rather different things at different times.
Actually… What if he, like several others, does not have a reflection at all, and originates on that side of the mirror?
4611032
Nope, nothing of the sort.
Doylistically speaking…
Star Swirl is first mentioned in Luna Eclipsed, and the dialogue is interesting:
I.e. the following appears to be true:
Notably, Luna does recognize him, but she’s the only one:
But that was, for the longest time, the only name of a classical unicorn wizard mentioned. Then he suddenly gets to be the mentor of Clover the Clever in Hearth’s Warming Eve. Which already kind of clashes with the above portrayal – this can’t have been the first time Spike attends the traditional play.
His importance abruptly rises when It’s About Time comes by, as he suddenly acquires a whole wing in Canterlot Archives and a body of work in time magic, and from there on it goes downhill – he gets the Unfinished Spell in Magical Mystery Cure and everything magically notable done in the period gets attributed to him from then on.
By A Hearth’s Warming Tail, Twilight is suddenly a fan so rabid that Spike is well aware to the point of nausea:
In comics, it turns out that he mysteriously possessed multiple secret labs, and left around whole libraries of writing, including fiction, which is far ahead of even the most prolific human authors, even assuming they maintain the same level of output for the same kind of time Star Swirl supposedly has been alive. None of the sources agrees on what exactly he looked like.
All of these qualities mostly befitting a personage that has never existed in the first place. :)
4611160
Are you arguing that Starswirl, in the Watsonian sense, is an invention of the Royal Sisters? Like Merlin being an abstraction of a number of Welsh pagan deities spot-welded to the Arthurian legend to improve its narrative structure and help fill out the Matter of Britain?
Does this make Luna Edward Longshanks, and Celestia neglected the cult of Starswirl in the years of Luna's exile?
Except that Starswirl's Glastonbury is in Canterlot's royal library, not the ruins of the old castle.
4611163
He could well be.
However, I think it works better narratively if he’s the result of multiple cases of bootstrap paradox perpetrated by the same person:
Kinda like this.
4611160
So... you're either suggesting somepony is using revisionist history and/or time travel to make Star Swirl canonically responsible for basically everything awesome, or suggesting that an enormous variety of mages have been un-personed by the government and had their achievements shuffled onto Star Swirl so that academia still makes all the same advances, but with much less rebellious ideas.
And I'm not sure which one makes for a more deliciously dark storyline.
4611171
I kind of didn’t have something quite as dark in mind, although that works too, depending on what kind of story you want to tell. :)
Here’s the kind of story I did have in mind though:
Repeat as needed: Every time he emerges, he restores large amounts of missing writing and has to imitate something that was supposedly done, but has never actually been. The ripples sent across the timeline as this happens are what accounts for differences in Twilight’s behavior.
4611173
So, we've got a time-traveller-stealing-credit version, a government-censorship version, and a Bootstrap Paradox version.
One day, people will stop giving me ideas. On that day, I'll finally be able to catch up.
4611160
Very interesting idea, and certainly not outside the realms of possibility.
4610810
I'm not saying Obscuria is really Discord's home dimension and you are the smooze, but I'm not not saying that...
Interesting. So your idea is that there is a finite (presumably renewable) amount of "regular" magic that unicorns and others tap into, and a separate source of chaos magic, and since Discord is the only one drawing from that pool, he is as powerful as say Celestia would be if she was the only pony alive?
Everywhere I've ever seen it, it either refers to some kind of undead creature, or a very minor godling ruling over a specific geographic area and/or specific portfolio of events. Since Discord is the Spirit of Chaos, I lean towards the latter.
It makes perfect sense that the Tree of Harmony would have created this superweapon to fight Discord long ago, if both have existed since the dawn of the planet. Certainly the tree with Twilight's cutie mark on it has a strong ability to predict the future. If not for Discord, why else would the Elements be created? Just a general weapon to blast the enemies of potential bearers with?
I rewatched all that scenes in that episode before I cited them. Yes, the Gala guests seemed more more scared of the Smooze, but they still seemed uneasy about Discord himself in a way that the ponies in S7 were not.
4610917
Plus having his magic suppressed by the changling darkstone!
Exactly. Like a Fallen Angel or a Paladin rejecting their code, only Discord turning against Chaos can truly threaten him. (Luckily this being MLP, Atonement is much easier and can be accomplished by friends). AlaraRogers has explored this idea better than anyone, although she has made a series of chaos avatars that keep getting killed over the ages.
I feel like if Discord was a self-aware magical construct/accident of Starswirl, I could see him surviving as a statue, or having his magic suppressed or his nature swapped, but I feel like Tirek draining him of all his magic would have killed him, since his creation/life would be entirely dependent on magic.
Considering that in Pedestria the Tree of Harmony was a Stump and was depowered until a random bolt of magic powered it up again, I can't help wondering if Discord and the Tree existed in full here in ancient times, had a catastrophic battle that basically destroyed both of them, and now are remembered only as myths.
4611032
Good point. I also feel the two are basically equal, I just feel like whatever category Discord is in, the Tree has to be as well.
Agreed, especially if you already suspect as I do that Starlight is one of them as well.
I am a fan of the idea that there is only 1 Discord, and "Captain Good Guy" Discord is just Discord applying a different persona in a different universe. Are you suggesting that Discord is actually an ancient human traveler who entered Equestria and got rather jumbled-up by the magic mirror?
OMG! This theory needs to be its own blogpost. I love this theory and think it explains a ton of things. In addition to explaining why Starswirl seems to have invented more magical spells and devices then every other great wizard combined, and his appearing in multiple different time periods, assuming the Regal Sisters eventually figured things out it explains why they have Sunburst spend all his days reading over the notes of Starswirl. It also perfectly explains the "Other Sith!"
If Starlight ever breaks the memory locks on her brain and remembers who her mentor is, I could see Sunburst being the first pony she would tell, especially if this happens in the future after Starlight moves away from Twilight. Once Sunburst has started traveling through time enough to figure out that he is Starswirl, he would realize that he would eventually have to take this role too (since he's preserving the timeline as he knows it). Even doing detrimental things to Starlight like enabling her focus on magic over making replacement friends, or sneaking in and wiping her memories in the S5 finale, would be justified if that is the only guaranteed way to ensure a timeline where Chrysalis is stopped.
Seriously, please make another blogpost about this theory of yours at some point, it deserves a full review.
4611175 A Canterlotian Unicorn in Queen Amore's Court
4611682
That's certainly the more interesting option, and the one with the most story-telling potential.
4611682
I am pretty sure I’m not the Smooze. Also, the morning news are magnitudes crazier than anything over in Discord’s pocket dimension.
Something like that, yes. It would explain things, wouldn’t it?
Why do we automatically assume they’re a weapon at all? Even the ponies don’t seem to do that with anywhere the consistency fanon does. Remember the Kzinti Lesson: “a reaction drive’s efficiency as a weapon is in direct proportion to its efficiency as a drive.” The Journal says: “According to the legends, the Tree of Harmony is incredibly powerful and is said to hold the elements of all that is good and true.”
Notably, this is written long before Discord ever turns up, and it’s supposedly already a legend. Also notably, the elements are not described as any kind of weapon in the Journal.
My interpretation is that the Elements literally are “elements,” elementary entities on par with class definitions in programming languages, source blocks of further cultural and spiritual entities.
I.e. they’re a drive. Of all that is good and true. Ponies just weaponize the exhaust.
Very few of them are Ponyville ponies at that, though, aren’t they? Most of them definitely see him for the first time.
If that were the case, there would be no plushie shaped like Discord in Pedestria, so probably not. But, for example, a Pedestrian jumbled up by the energy that leaked in from the magic mirror – Equestrian magic tends to demonize Pedestrians who do not share it, remember? – who subsequently escaped to the other side, and didn’t get turned into a pony because he was no longer human enough for the magic to work? That, I can easily believe.
Well, maybe later. :) Mind you, I think the honor of publicly introducing the idea that Sunburst is Star Swirl belongs to Dr. Wolf. I’m just applying the bootstrap paradox to it: before the loop started, all of Star Swirl’s achievements belonged to different, equally nonexistent wizards, an amalgamation of anonymous scraps of knowledge and actions. It was Sunburst who ended up collecting them all under the aegis of one personality, because once he got dropped at the beginning, he had to improvise, and later on it was easier to maintain the ageless identity and ascribe the missing things to it instead of trying to establish a new one.
4611729
I dunno, you seem pretty unstoppable at times.
I've heard some pretty tall tales from the [Redacted] Tribune, Obscuria's Paper of Record.
You're talking about a race of supposed great warriors that got beaten by a pre-interstellar pacifist society with a series of signal lasers. I make it a policy never to listen to cats.
I will admit that the actions of the Elements of Harmony and Rainbow Power are far more impressive in fixing the aftermath than in actually beating the villain. I suppose them acting as the equivalent of the lanterns that the Green Lanterns (and other color lantern corps) use could fit.
But do you really think such a powerful force for a single value would/could be created in a magical world without some kind of opposing force? Put another way: the Tree of Harmony and the Elements of Harmony suffered that old problem Chrysalis did: If they are as powerful and ancient as we believe, how have they not taken over the world? Why haven't previous bearers found that cave and used the Elements to squash disharmonious beings? Beat down dragons and diamond dogs and most of all Windigos?
Similarly, why hasn't Discord taken over the entire world at some point, or at least twisted it so badly that all sapient life stops reproducing? I think if the Tree and Discord have been balancing each other since the beginning of time, you solve both problems.
Second time since he sucked up their magic at least. I agree this is true, do you really think a few more months of exposure without any additional factors (like Discord being named a national hero) would be enough to change that reaction in the populace? Once you've gotten a memory of Discord and Tirek laughing maniacally as they drain your life-force, I think it would take quite a dramatic event to change your opinion of either one of them ever. Honestly, I feel like even Discord saving the world might not be enough to make background ponies stop being afraid of him.
I think this is an intriguing theory, if we're looking for a more recent origin of Discord. He certainly enjoys referencing human pop culture. I want to point out though, that it looks like Pedestrians can safely use small amounts of magic without ill effects (Gloriosa and Juniper both seem able to wield it without being effected) except by human nature, they are never able to figure out where the safe limit is before they cross it.
Oh man, I bet Sunburst got Twilight started time traveling in her own S2 loop before he wiped himself clean of that time-mess.
4611796
Well, if they told you these were just signal lasers, and not propulsion lasers, they lied, so you shouldn’t listen to them, the difference in energy levels is orders of magnitude.
But even a simple rocket jet makes an excellent flamethrower, a nuclear thermal rocket is easy to turn into a nuclear bomb, and a nuclear pulse drive is a nuclear grenade launcher.
Why should everything have an opposing force? There are some radically different kinds of fantasy universes, and not all of them maintain the 9-pigeonhole AD&D alignment system. Why do you think this universe does? The canon evidence can go in multiple directions.
…Wait, you mean the tree hasn’t taken over the world? Don’t ponies live in harmony? Far more harmony than we see, you know, here? :)
These questions have different possible answers:
As for dragons and diamond dogs and most of all windigos, windigos are considered entirely mythical so that well-educated ponies maintain they never existed in the first place, diamond dogs are so far from a serious threat that they can be defeated by whining these days, and dragons tend to their own business far outside Equestria in a stone age culture, when they, at least previously, had good knowledge of metalworking and presumably could project power internationally, and now, they are reduced to barbarian raids at most. You’d think Celestia and Luna had a hoof in all of that.
I am not convinced the problems aren’t artificial and exist in the first place, is all. They only exist if you assume that “harmony” and “chaos” are primal source forces that drive the entire world, instead of emergent phenomena of pony civilization, but they don’t really have to be given the evidence depicted. If you assume they are the product of pony worldview, instead, the problems don’t come up at all.
Seriously depends on how many ponies actually saw him do it.
That’s certainly true. But given the abilities that are at least a bit similar to the scope of Discord’s power, if not its magnitude, you would expect this limit to get crossed in a hurry.
That’s certainly possible. :)
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Sudden thought.
What is the most recent human pop culture reference we remember Discord making? As in, which is the newest pop culture phenomenon we remember him referencing?
I’m probably missing something, and I’m not dipping into the comics here at all, but it looks like there are very few things newer than 2004, and smartphones could, theoretically, be an exception, we never see the front. In any case, this hypothetical Pedestrian that turned into Discord has been an interesting individual – most of his tastes seem to go back to 80s and even earlier, but he’s not above being topical and trendy. The temporal gradient between Equestria and Pedestria would have to be nonlinear, but we already had evidence that it is messed up, anyway.
Fanon usually assumes that before Celestia, the principal of Canterlot High was either a nobody or Sombra, but could this be the actual Discord?…
In fact, could this be the true origin of the notion that he “ruled Equestria?”
Ok fine, I couldn't remember that part, but the Kitty Empire had superior numbers, technology, and psychic powers and they still lost! Master strategiest they ain't.
Don't knock the D&D Alignment system, as a level 5 Lawful Neutral Commentator I find it tremendously helpful in analyzing fiction, as do many other writers and commentators who nonetheless like to bash it for style points. The number of times I've read a comment or article that starts with "The D&D Alignment System is stupid" and then goes on to call this and that character, race or organization Lawful Evil or Chaotic Neutral is staggering.
Ponies in Equestria proper do live in harmony...most of the time. Outside of the rule of the Diarchy, harmony seems in short supply. The single biggest example is Chrysalis and her changlings, who seem a pretty wide ranging threat to harmony around the world. Without an opposing force, if this tree was handing out a root code modifier to reality to any pair of friends that stopped by the canyon it was in, how did no one over millenium take the Elements and blast the changling empire or the Jackal Empire or the Windigos or the Umbra? Unless the tree is just another accident of Starswirl, like Chrysalis and Discord.
It wasn't buried in a cave, anyone walking by that canyon could spot the tree. It seems pretty unbelievable that no sapient pair of friends has walked by that canyon since the dawn of time.
Ok, fair enough, but that also means that any two changlings, dragons or diamond dogs that happen to be friends could also wield the Elements.
The Proving Ground for the future Dragon Lord might be a traditional wilderness, but based on the fact that all these young teenage dragons have custom-fitted armor, I suspect the technology level of the dragons hasn't declined. And based on what we've seen of the dragons might and numbers from the books, comics and show, it would not go well for Celestia and Luna if they tried directly to interfere with the Dragon Empire.
Hmm. Discord has been greeted as a liberator by the Catfolk, and been a member of court in the Centaur/Gargoyle nation. I do admit his role as villain does seem shaped by the pony worldview. But does that mean Discord only represents chaos to ponies, or that only ponies see chaos as almost totally evil?
Also, if Discord is just runaway experiment or an unlucky former high school administrator and the Tree of Harmony is the ultimate power source for good in Equestria, it seems really unlikely his plundervines would be strong enough to destroy the Tree. It feels like Frankenstein's Monster beating up the Archangel Gabriel or something.
Very few ponies actually saw him do it, true. But the Season 7 Opener had the public ceremony in Ponyville, where all the hoi-polloi came to Twilight's castle, the Princesses gave Discord the equivalent of the Iron Cross, and presumably the newspapers told the story. (Trixie would insist on that).
Between the S4 and S6 Finale, if you are a background pony, here's your point of view of Discord: Maybe you heard about him being an ancient tyrant, maybe or maybe not you know he messed up Ponyville briefly, then he is this weird guy that hangs around town and maybe released a bunch of nasty vines (not sure how much news background ponies have about current events). But you definitely remember that time he teleported himself and Tirek near you, and he laughed evilly as Tirek drank your magic. Then maybe you heard the Princesses say he apologized, and even helped stop Tirek, but you would still be really afraid of him, right?
But now there's this picture in the paper of Discord with a fancy medal being put on by Princess Luna, and you read about how he risked his own life and magic to rescue the beloved Princesses and the Mane 6. Of course, Discord could have taken over the world without anyone who could possibly stop him at the time, but instead chose to do the right thing at great personal risk. I think this is what it would take for the average pony to truly forgive him for siding with Tirek, and no longer fear him.
This is definitely true. Any human trying to do Discordian levels of magic is going to go mad fast....... oh. So former CHS Principal Discord wanders through a portal that was open 20 years ago Pedestria time, 1400 years ago Equestria time, possibly clutching a weird magic artifact that empowered him. Mr. Discord thinks he's on a hallucinogenic trip in a magical land of talking ponies, and has fun lucid dreaming by turning everything into cotton candy and such. Then he sees the pony forms of his math teacher and history teacher yelling at him, they shoot him with a laser, and only as a statue does Discord realize this is not a drug trip at all!
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It’s not stupid. It just assumes a particular kind of fantasy with a manichaean structure. Manichaean structure is a very common form for fantasy, but not the only one.
Actually, buried in a cave hidden in the middle of pony-eating forest populated with manticores, ursas, hydras and other megafauna, located smack in the middle of an unsettled continent is exactly where it was.
It’s far more surprising anyone had any knowledge of it at all than that it wasn’t found earlier.
It would have to be the latter.
So you have a solar power plant of immense power. It’s powering the entire continent. Nothing can contend with its awesome electrical might.
And then someone drags a cloud in and places it smack over your mirrors…
Not everything is a straight up power contest.
Maybe. Mind you, the show crew is going to ignore that. :)
Kinda. See my post. :)
4612569
Unsettled by ponies. Buffalo were on the continent, dragons and diamond dogs have been living within a few miles of the cave. I can't think of anything a dragon would fear that can also fly, and diamond dogs tunneling around looking for gems should have no problem digging under the Everfree. There's also the question of whether the Everfree was actually that wild before Discord's plunder vines were planted.
Of course, if the Tree is also one of Starswirl's experiments, it only had to sit there for a decade or two before the sisters followed Starswirl's notes and retrieved the Elements.
A sapient, precognitive power plant. But I don't think that's quite a similar analogy. The plundervines slowly growing throughout the forest and strangling the Tree through its roots actually does seem like a straight up power-contest. Discord even fought the tree on its own, arboreal terms. His chaos magic was just more powerful than the tree. Again, if it's also some random experiment of Starswirl, not surprising, but if the tree is an ancient cosmic power.... more surprising. I guess in the end just like you think Discord and the Alicorns need to be in the same category, I think Discord and the Tree need to be in the same category, but we're flexible as to which category they fall in.
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The Journal says it was. Buffalo aren’t interested in forests because they can’t stampede through them, dragons don’t do friends, and actually, diamond dogs don’t appear to be big on friends either.
And the Tree was sans most of its power at the moment, having given up the Elements.
Really, there are a lot of sensible alternative interpretations of what’s actually going on here.
4613081
At the time of the Princesses, not necessarily since the Dawn of Time.
I believe a very wise Smooze pretending to be from Obscuria once said "No beings are apriori disharmonious, even Chrysalis can sing. There are disharmonious behaviors." Griffons are Greedy, except for Gabby. Changlings are evil, except for Thorax (though they may be an exception since based on comics they have been tyrannically ruled by Chrysalis). Dragons aren't friendly, except for that mysterious dragon that befriended the Buffalo and got them to honor all dragons with topazes.
It's basically a probability question. If the Tree of Harmony has been in the Everfree Forest for millions or billions of years, what are the odds that two sapient creatures would nearby would A)Become friends even if their culture doesn't normally value friendship B)Go exploring a dangerous forest together C)Stumble into that one canyon and find the giant glowing tree, gaining the EoH. A&B&C together are a very small probability event, but the odds of NotA&B&C over millions or billions of years is a statistical improbability.
And Discord was a statue for most of this time period, having also been stripped of most of his power. The tree can see the future, so it was willing to give the Elements to the Regal Sisters, knowing Discord would threaten it down the line with Plundervines. If the Tree of Harmony is such a vital conduit for good, would it really risk everything to stop Discord if it didn't see him as essentially an existential threat?
I admit there are multiple ways of viewing the conflict between Discord and the Tree, from a grand battle of deities to a struggle between a magic-drunk hippy and a forgotten botany experiment of Starswirl's. But I think pretty much any sensible interpretation is going to see the two of them as equals.
4613727
These can be actually estimated, you know.
Let us assume, for simplicity, that the pony world history roughly mimics the history we know in terms of ages.
Probabilities of dependent events compound by multiplying, so we get something like 0.1 * 0.1 * 0.2 per loop of two creatures becoming friends and then finding the Tree, or 0.002, which is already based on overinflated estimates. And that’s assuming the population density in the area is high enough and that they move often enough. (Dragons apparently don’t.) The loop would be more than one day long, too.
That’s not a high probability at all and it can only go down from that 0.002.
You’re assuming “millions and billions” of years, but there’s no reason to believe sapient life on Equestria’s earth is anywhere that old. You’re also assuming that the Tree doesn’t get to decide whether to hand over the Elements or not – it had cutie mark symbols on it, so you’d also have to add “chance of having a cutie mark matching” into the equation, sharply dropping the probability over time to near zero.
In fact, the very fact that the tree has cutie marks on it suggests that it is pony-centric, and can’t be cosmic unless the entire world is already pony-centric.
So it’s more surprising that Celestia and Luna had read “alicorn” books about the Tree than it having never been touched before.
Me, I just think that the entire manichaean cosmology planted around the Tree and Discord by the fandom is neither well-founded nor well-followed by the canon. Nobody in the show crew stopped to think and set up a sensible philosophy to back it up.
“Equals” is not the same as “same order entities.”
4614266 Most of your math makes sense to me, except the timeline. In a world with dozens of radically different sapient species, it seems more likely that some of them evolved on the continent of Equestria, so what are the odds native humans would find it in Africa, instead of North America? Sure, sapient life could have evolved only 10,000 years ago (a world that requires divine creators to actually move the sun has zero respect for evolution). On the other hand, if even one friendless jerk found a gigantic crystal tree, they would probably tell the rest of their tribe eventually, unless the Tree is memory-wiping everyone it meets it doesn't like.
That....is a pretty strong point. Assuming the tree didn't just sprout those cutie marks on its side the day before Celestia and Luna, it does seem pretty likely the Tree would only give its Elements out to Ponies. So now we're at the point where either the gods created this world for ponies and other species are there for filler, or back to the idea of the Tree as a botany project for Sunburst the Bearded, which would certainly explain the cutie marks.
I'll agree on the last part, clearly the show crew have not thought of any kind of coherent philosophy, theology, or cosmology to back up the incredibly powers they have handed out. But I think the S4 Opener and S4 Closer really do establish some level of connection between Discord and the Tree. Discord is the only being that ever comes close to threatening the Tree, he's also the key to unlocking its full power and seems to understand it better than Twilight at one point.
4615207
Anatomically modern humans evolved ~200kY ago, so the probability is only five times higher, rather than orders of magnitude.
Also, we have grounds to believe that dragons evolved wherever ponies came from, see the Shadow Lock storyline.
There are other solutions, but these are the most obvious ones, yes.
Sunburst the Bearded is kind of a cop-out, though. :)
4615637
I would think with dozens of species, some of them could achieve sapience sooner, and some of them later. Dragons, with their immense lifespans, probably evolve much more slowly (I was going to discuss dragons as a dinosaur offshoot, but then I remember how hard it would be to apply the principles of evolution to Equestria).
It is one of those theories that is difficult to fail and explains almost too much. It really approaches this:
BTW, I know Dr. Wolf came out with that theory first, but you could still add a lot to the discussion. Heck in his video he thanks someone on tumblr for discussing it further!
4616612
The real problem with it is that it’s unfalsifiable. Any phenomena of pony canon can be explained by either “Star Swirl made it so” or “Discord made it so” or “Celestia made it so,” and it is impossible to disprove that this happened once the assumption is made, because it is impossible to imagine something that would prevent them from “making it so.”
This makes serious discussion of said canon pointless in the same way purely Doylist discussion of pony is pointless: “Hasbro made it so” is just as effective at answering every question and the answers it gives are just as useless for writing.
Well, ok, I’ll write it up when I get a moment…
4616710
Yup, that's what I meant by difficult to fail, I just used the wrong terminology.
Huzzah!
If you didn't check "foreign lands" off yet I'd say you couldn't get much more foreign, though we don't see the lands much…
DiscordxFlutter Pillownoted…though not the Discord-only pillow it's next to.Carrot-ginger sandwiches would have some kick to them.
I disagree.
drying-sheep = Conjuration/imparting of life ( As the teabags, napkins, Duplicords, teapot all confirm, )…thoughTwilight and Trixie are well-capable of that last.
∃Baseball…for metaphor.
∃Dedicated tea shop.
♪"Do you validate [parking]?"
Discord conjures money. Nothing here suggests it's from somewhere else.
∃Unpower-corded lava lamps.
The bridges leading to Discord's front door are an interesting concession to the necessity of ground travel…when there's not much ground. Why are they there? For whom? Mind, Fluttershy isn't the flight junkie RD is, kind of the opposite, so it may be for her in simple…
❧Discord hyperventilates…and uses the paper-bag method to calm himself down.
Discord's "team" are boredly reading smartphones which are camera-equipped.
Fluttershy hair on Discord is actually quite cute.
The literal beehive, however, is literal.
Discord Fluttershy costume. By which Fluttershy is not in the least creeped out.
Dropping that teapot didn't break it. That may or may not be unusual; cartoon resolution prevents us knowing if it's stoneware, porcelain, or what…
♪Fluttershy says "gesundheit".
Alternately, the moral of the episode is that she now 1. really gets and appreciates Discord for himself and 2. implicitly trusts his power-usage to not actually hurt people, both of which I felt the episode was good at conveying.
Special tea with special Everfree herbs, perhaps…but also getting to know Zecora, yes.
Simple. Here, he's being boring for the sake of being boring and producing harmony. There, he's being harmonious for the sake of screwing with people. This supports 4610917 .
see above: she trusts Discord…that they're not screaming helps a bunch, I'm sure.
The napkin scene, of course, paints Pinkie as, at the least, a Discord fanfilly.
4610302
Abortifacient or contraceptive? Antipsychotic? Hot-water herbal infusions are perfectly capable of serving medical purposes.
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4610723
Uh…http://mlp.wikia.com/wiki/File:Discord_the_magician_S4E25.pngthe bit where Discord pulled Tirek out of a hat in front of a crowd, literally on a stage?
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😾
Because that act is inharmonious, and thus cannot utilize the Elements.
…no, Snake's been doing it from game one. The Metal Gear series has games before Metal Gear Solid, besides. And he did it in that one [MGS1], too, if you scroll down a bit.
4612562
Watsonian, as a philosopher, the issue is that there's a conflation that Lawful or especially Good* try to impose on minds: that Good and Lawful are good and lawful, rather than "actions benefiting the forces under the banners Good and Law". On the other hand, acknowledging this distinction yielded the Blood War for fiends, so…
More Doylistically, the issue is assuming our good is their Good, and a whole lot of stupid writers who say things like "theft is Evil" when it's clearly Chaotic, or that poison is Evil and then introducing with the other hand specially-targeted anti-Evil biological and chemical warfare.
4612562
what
…but that would be great, I don't see the problem?
turquoises
The Elements' gems in the flashback to Discord's banishing are unshaped except for the Friendship Star.oh, sun-moon bit. Hm. Depicting a…harmonious…system?4631641
The problem with that is, then we have to assume Fluttershy is laughing hilariously as Discord creates new life just to abuse it , and then kills it when he snaps it away at Fluttershy's request. Discord can create real, permanent objects, but he can also create illusions. It seems really unlikely that Fluttershy hasn't at some point asked him not to create living objects just for gags, torment them, and then disintegrate them.
Same thing here. Either Discord is conjuring living things and just lying to Fluttershy constantly and getting away with it (which seems unlikely, given how perceptive Fluttershy is) or he's only conjuring temporary illusions of things except when otherwise necessary.
That's exactly what the Mane 6 used them for against Discord and Nightmare Moon though.
Comics man, Issue #24. And of course, The Tirek scene is in Tirek origin comic.
It's not a very likely outcome, that an avatar of such incredible power could be beaten by a random experiment gone wrong.
That does raise a good point, doesn't it. Do those 3 alicorn Princesses have their butt-marks because the tree has them, or does the tree have them because those 3 will have them?
4631729
no, the mane 6 used them to end the suffering of everypony, not "squash disharmonious beings"…
Contrast the Crystal Heart, built through a nation's naming ritual and based on love rather than harmony, which has no apparent problem killing Sombra. Actually, that gives me a runaway train…
https://www.fimfiction.net/blog/754454/crystalline-efficiency-crystal-heart-magic-theory
Alternate interpretation of him fading away is that he's running a test of Fluttershy's friendship for him, like when he brought
Oliverthe Smooze to the Gala, making sure she lov- er, likes him for who he is, not what she's trying to turn him into. It doesn't fit well with the rest of the episode, though.4610249 Another wild idea to explain the background ponies' reaction to Discord - what if this happened before Twilight's Kingdom? It'd need to be just after the party shop opened (to contrast with Pinkie Pride), but we never do see Twilight's castle, so it's possible.
That'd also explain why Fluttershy's never been to Discord's home before, despite his getting mail there - he hooked up a permanent portal sometime between now and the Gala, probably slightly after Twilight's Kingdom.
4631752
Really? Ask Discord how he felt being petrified by the Elements of Harmony. I'm pretty sure he'd say "quashed."
4649169 Your theory does help explain how the mail ponies were able to access his dimension.
But Fluttershy was sending letters to Discord in Threes a Crowd in Season 4. Even before Discord betrayed everyone to Tirek, everyone except Fluttershy seemed suspicious and distrustful of Discord. For Ponyville at large, Discord is the guy who A)turned their town upside down before being turned back to stone, B) was apparently reformed and seen hanging around Fluttershy, C)Caused a bunch of vines wreck the town before the vines were gotten rid of, and D)Caused trouble around town while colored Blue.
I think after Season 5's Make New Friends But Keep Discord is the first plausible time when background ponies would treat Discord in a neutral or friendly manner; in that episode he spends several days hanging around town with most of the Mane 6, and apparently behaves well enough that they consider him a true friend after that. Much more likely after the S6 Finale though, after Discord helps save the world it's a lot easier to forgive his many less reputable actions.
4649276
Did they ever actually identify Discord with the vines to the ponies at large, though?
That trouble was so minor it doesn’t even rate, and almost all of it was confined to a private setting.
4649276
Quell rather than quash, queued up por Q.
They were actually tryng to do that the first time and that's part of why it failed (aside from, y'know, being disloyal to Loyalty). Of course, they were also doing it so they could let their friendship end…
4649323
Can't really see the difference there. He was still turned to stone, I think he was firmly quashed. The Elements of Harmony may be good, but they aren't nice.
4649313 The town was wrecked, when Discord is suddenly helping clean up in a maid uniform, questions will be asked. Do we think the Mane 6 and the Princesses would lie about it? If not, the truth will come out.
Yeah, probably. But Discord is pretty recognizable from a distance, and when he's whirling around blowing up trees I could see that at least being the subject of gossip around town from anyone walking near the train station.
4649325
I'm not sure what else I can say to convince you; I don't feel that Hard Reset-type Elements are canon.
The first time, it was "to defeat Discord" and it failed; the second time, it was "to show Discord what the power of friendship can do" and it succeeded. While not strong evidence, I still think this supports the notion that fixing what is wrong is what the Elements are for and what they do, not defeating people.
I suppose that then raises the question on NMM's banishment instead, how it can require a thousand years for proper repentance from Celestia…