• Member Since 20th Aug, 2015
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A British Gentleman


I am a fan of many things, particularly the fine works of Sir Terry Pratchett (may he rest in peace). After spending a long time lurking, I have elected to create an account.

More Blog Posts74

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Jun
28th
2017

The Psychology of the Internet: The Manosphere, Misogyny and Fanfics · 10:17pm Jun 28th, 2017

There is a well known quote by an American Evangelist by the name of Dwight L. Moody. It is thus:

"Character is what you are in the dark."

This leads to a fascinating thought experiment: if you are in a situation where you can behave as you wish, with no possibility of consequences for your actions, and no chance that those actions will ever be associated with you, what will you do?

When it comes down to it, what are you in the dark?

Happily, that scenario can easily be put into action; there is, in fact, a place where you can observe a great many people in the dark: the Internet.

The results are often rather depressing, to the point that a rather cynical gentlemen developed an adage on the topic:

An even more cynical gentlemen simplified the above equation still further, concluding: "normal person = total fuckwad."

Reality is a touch more complicated than this, of course. It cannot be denied, however, that the internet houses a great many people who are more than happy to let their inner fuckwad run wild and free, posting things they would never, ever utter in real life.

This is rarely more apparent than it is in the Manosphere. For the sake those who remain blissfully ignorant on the topic, the Manosphere is a loosely affiliated collection of blogs, websites, forums and YouTube channels that allegedly focus on men's rights and men's issues.

That's the official definition, anyway. In reality, it is a wretched and shameless hive of misogyny, racism, sexism, homophobia and anti-Semitism that would make a Saudi Arabian legislator blush. To give you an idea of what awaits down that particular rabbit hole, here is a glossary of terms, and here is a blog that documents it's dark(er) underbelly.

What its various "incels," "mctow's" and pick-up "artists" all seem to have in common is a ravenous contempt for women, and a vast sense of entitlement to those same women. What they seem to crave above all is a meek, submissive and preferably foreign women who will offer sex on tap, behave like (their fantasy version of) a fifties housewife, and silently put up with whatever outrageous abuses and infidelities they elect to inflict upon her.

They want, in short, their own submissive little waifu.

Now where have we heard that before?

The problem with the internet is that it's darker aspects, such as the Manosphere, do not exist in isolation. Hell, this very fandom came into being within the hellish bowel of 4chan. The fact is that there is considerable cross pollination and, for want of a better term, leakage.

One thing I have noticed is the prevalence of Manospherian attitudes, and even terminology, in fanfics and comments sections.

This does not necessarily mean that badfic authors all have accounts at Return of Kings. Rather, it is more likely a case of convergent evolution and sorting: there are many young men with varying degrees of conscious and subconscious misogynistic thoughts and thought processes. Upon entering the internet, they will (naturally) gravitate towards sites catering to there various interests. Some of them will come here.

Let us consider the exact process that occurs when setting up an account on this site, from a psychological perspective. It is important that this is understood: when one understands the psychology involved with the internet, much of what badfic authors say and do makes a hell of a lot more sense.

Following a period of lurking, the prospective user will set up an account. In almost no circumstances will this account be directly linked to the user's IRL identity. What the user is doing here is creating a new, separate identity with which to interact with the site, that is at once removed from the actual identity of the user.

This is not same as total anonymity: whilst the identity created is at once removed from the user (and cannot generally be traced back to the user's IRL identity), the user is still invested in the created persona, and that sense of investment will tend to increase with time. For example: if I were to suddenly behave badly on this site, it would be highly unlikely to effect me IRL, but it would effect the reputation of my online persona, via this account. I could easily shed this account and set up a new one, but that would cost me the time and energy I have invested in this one. This phenomena of semi anonymity tends to have a moderating effect on user behaviour.

The purpose for which the account, and the resulting persona, was created will also generally dictate the user's behaviour to an extent. The same person may behave very differently when interacting with the site via an account set up for the purpose of trolling than they would via an account set up to publish their serious works. This seems self evident, but it doesn't reinforce the above point.

Consider our hypothetical user: he (most of the authors here are male, the opposite of the norm with fanfic) will generally be young, in his mid teens to early twenties. He has never had a girlfriend, and this greatly frustrates him.

He is going to write a fanfic. In this fanfic, "he" will get the girl. Or pony, as the case may be.

This is the part that we've all seen before: the bad self insert fic in which the Gary Stu protagonist gets his pony waifu. In general:

1) The protagonist will be either a human or an OC pony, which will act as the avatar of the author. Occasionally, an author will repurpose a canon character as an avatar. Typically Spike.
2) The protagonist will act out an uninhibited version of the author's own personality and behaviour profile. IE, the protagonist will act as the author would prefer to if they dared / believed they could get away with it.
3) The fic and it's characters will enable the behaviour of the protagonist. They will not be called out on or punished for their bad behaviour; the purpose of the fic is not the story or the characters, it is to allow the author an escape into a world that enables their desires.
4) There will be no character growth for the protagonist; the protagonist is the author, and the author does not believe himself to be in need of growth.
5) The protagonist will get a relationship with the author's pony of choice. The protagonist will not have to moderate their own behaviour or grow as a character before this occurs; the pony in question will love the protagonist regardless of how unpleasant they are.
6) In most cases, the pony will suffer a shift in character upon becoming a waifu, in order to better match the author's vision of an ideal girlfriend. This shift is typically most pronounced in Rainbow Dash.
7) From that point on, the pony is essentially a satellite character to the protagonist; her personality and goals become subservient to his.

Here is where the Manosphere and it's associated attitudes rears its ugly head. Consider the above outline. How many times, my good ladies and gentlemen, have you seen fics that went so? I'm going to guess at quite a few.

Take a look at it again, and make a note of how much blatant misogyny is present. Note the sense of entitlement woven into the narrative. The protagonist gets a girlfriend, and gets sex, because that is his Right.

The author's that write these fics have in them seeds of the same attitudes and philosophies that leads to the likes of Return of Kings or the Incel subreddit, when taken to their ultimate conclusion.

They may never have heard of either. They may have no idea what the Manosphere is at all, although they may use its terms as a result of internet cultural osmosis. These attitudes have developed independently many, many times.

Unlike some of the malignant creatures of the Manosphere, most of these authors would not voice these fantasies as they really are in real life. They do so via their self insert, which they deny is their self insert. Which is at once removed from their online persona. Which is at once removed from there actual self.

In many ways that is encouraging, because it shows that, in their heart of hearts, these authors know that this is not really okay. It is my hope, and belief, that most of them will grow out of it.

As ever, I await your thoughts, my good ladies and gentlemen.

Report A British Gentleman · 620 views ·
Comments ( 15 )

One look at any fanfiction community dominated by women (IE: Almost all of them) and their prevalence of all the same terrible self insert tropes in equal measure will quickly dispel any connection you're trying to make here.

Where exactly do you think the term "Mary Sue" comes from?

4585832

It was more intended as an analysis on the thought processes behind these fic and the tropes involved in them. The equivalent fics written by young women have their own associated tropes, with their own causes. An analysis might be cool for that, but they are far less common on this site.

The origin of the term Mary Sue is quite fascinating. It came from the character of Lt Mary Sue, the youngest officer in Starfleet, who was herself a parody of that character type. She herself was first used as a shorthand by a pair of analysts, and the term took off from there.

4585832
Star Trek fandom and names for an online trend that rapidly spiraled out of control and contributed to a buzzword term of absolutely zero critical use currently, so far as I can tell. Though Gary Stu is equally useless, imo, if that helps.

...Sorry I'm not over that.

and um, honestly, agreed with A British Gentleman here. Women tend to have their own self-insert tropes, or poor character tropes. It's the difference between a fic about a Bella Swan-ish girl who gets wrapped up in an idealized romance with an overdeveloped and out of character handsome dude, and Eragon of the Inheritance books. Except Eragon is genuinely an easier character to swallow than a lot of Anons, I've found.

That said I think the biggest failure here is that there's an assumption that most (prominent) anons are being created by seventeen year old and younger too-young-to-know-better daydreamers. I'm guilty of some of the same assumptions, but I honestly suspect that more and more of these male fantasy characters are being created by people in their 20s, people who are sometimes in successful-ish romantic relationships and who write badly for subtly different reasons. Anon-fic are also influenced by their very nature by both surrounding anon-fic and Chan culture, which means there's a set of tropes surrounding Anon at this point that are practically genre convention and staple.

MadMaxtheBlack is an example here of an author breaking from this 'arc'. His stories starring human OCs tend to be barely a step above bad anon-fic, but from what I can tell - and I haven't gone investigating his personal life - he seems a little too 'quirky' and self-aware to really be trying to self-project on any level. He's just making what he considers a disposable product for people to fap to, for the most part, and that leads to many of the same issues in writing.

Also his Your Human and You universe is the home of I Am Not Spartacus, or whatever its name was, a fic that I consider up there with Kudzu's "best' in terms of "oh god what the fuck".

4585948

There are two different demographics that are being confused here. There are the teens writing predominantly adolescent wish-fulfillment anon fantasies, yes. But the sort of Manosphere attitudes on display in many of the less pleasant sorts of sex-as-power-fantasy stories are, as you suspected, the work of 20-something males. Few are in stable, long-term relationships, most commonly due to their inherently misogynistic attitudes toward women. Many of them are also members of the "pick-up artist" communities, with all that implies.

But this is nothing new. In the distant prehistory, before the Age of the Internet, this type of Manosphere writing infested the sci-fi/fantasy world, and was epitomized by John Norman's "Chronicles of Counter-Earth", aka the "Gorean Cycle", which was one of the most brutal depictions of misogynistic power-fantasy in existence. It was also disturbingly popular, and actually spawned a sub-culture which attempted to live out its philosophy in real life, known as the Goreans. Goreans were typically the same demographic, emotionally-stunted 20-something males, with a far smaller number of similarly-aged women who were either imposed upon to adhere to the lifestyle by their partners, damaged people who drifted into it as part of the cycle of abuse, or who found the abdication of personal responsibility appealing.

The Manosphere originated as a reaction against misandric feminism, and in particular its manifestation in the form of governmental and administrative policies that favor women over men. The two types of policies against which the MIGTAW's are in particular rebelling are the criminalization of romantic approaches by men to women (treating them as various forms of harassment or rape) and the tendency of courts to award child custody to women and child support to men, even when the women in question are horribly poor mothers.

Of course, the men who do this tend to be the ones who were very bad at finding women who actually liked them (hence the accusations of rape or harassment) or keeping their affections (hence the divorces). This is what lends the pathetic cast to the whole movement.

The ideal of these men is to get sex from women without having to make any committment to them. They admire the tiny minority of men who are both charismatic and sociopathic enough to do this, and to want to do this, and try to copy them. In doing so, of course, they further alienate themselves from most women, most especially the women who might otherwise have actually liked them. They consign themselves to sad, lonely lives.

I know about the MIGTAW's and the Manosphere mostly from some online commentators who are neither -- Sargon of Akkad (who is married with children) and Armored Skeptic (who is in a long-term romantic relationship with Shoe On Head). The view they presented of the MIGTAW's is that they are, essentially, a bunch of sad losers, very many of whom actually have been abused by (rather exploitative and unsympathetic) women.

Unfortunately, the way they are behaving in reaction to this both ensures that they will abuse women who do not deserve this treatment, and that they will never find love themselves, since they pre-emptively reject all women.

Now, on to the Gary Stu / Pony Waifu writer:

1) The protagonist will be either a human or an OC pony, which will act as the avatar of the author. Occasionally, an author will repurpose a canon character as an avatar. Typically Spike.

Spike gets cast in this role because the GS/PW writers don't realize the extent to which Spike actually is a hero -- and appreciated as such -- in the MLP:FIM universe. He has canon superpowers compared to most Ponies, he's officially a Hero of the Crystal Empire, he's treated with kindness and respect by every single Pony Princess in existence, and he's a good friend of almost every important recurring character, including the Mane Six, Starlight Glimmer, the Cutie Mark Crusaders, Big Mac and Discord. And he makes new friends with extreme ease. All this, and he's somewhere in his teens.

Notably, Spike achieves this because he acts like the exact opposite of the GS/PW writers' protagonists. He's genuinely kind without expecting tangible rewards in return, he actually likes Ponies (male and female) and he treats them with respect.

2) The protagonist will act out an uninhibited version of the author's own personality and behaviour profile. IE, the protagonist will act as the author would prefer to if they dared / believed they could get away with it.

This frequently involves going up to characters of high social status and behaving abusively and without rational cause for hostility toward them.

3) The fic and it's characters will enable the behaviour of the protagonist. They will not be called out on or punished for their bad behaviour; the purpose of the fic is not the story or the characters, it is to allow the author an escape into a world that enables their desires.

They not only won't be punished or suffer disadvantages for their unwarranted rudeness and even criminal physical aggressiveness toward others, but will be treated with extra special crunchy respect for their boldness. Even if the person they picked on is popular, royalty, has super-powers or considerable social skills. (For some reason, the person they pick on is often Celestia, who has all the aforementioned attributes. This lends credence to your theory, as she's a female authority figure).

4) There will be no character growth for the protagonist; the protagonist isthe author, and the author does not believe himself to be in need of growth.

(*nods*) Instead, the rest of the world must change to suit the Protagonist's lordly whims!

5) The protagonist will get a relationship with the author's pony of choice. The protagonist will not have to moderate their own behaviour or grow as a character before this occurs; the pony in question will love the protagonist regardless of how unpleasant they are.

And in these stories, the Protagonists are often very unpleasant. What's more, this relationship will be very poorly grounded in anything Protagonist does, says, or is: sometimes, the implication is that Protagonist was the first person to "really like" the Pony Waifu (especially silly when this is a member of the Mane Six, all of whom are charismatic, intelligent and of high status), or that the Protagonist has some ineffable (no, really, it's almost never explained) special quality that makes PW love him.
 

6) In most cases, the pony will suffer a shift in character upon becoming a waifu, in order to better match the author's vision of an ideal girlfriend. This shift is typically most pronounced in Rainbow Dash.

Probably because Rainbow Dash -- even my own fairly virtuous version of Dashie -- is in now way, shape or form shy and retiring. She's loud and obnoxious and gusty and enthusiastic, like any recognizable Dashie. About the only thing Rainbow Dash is shy about are her softer emotions, and the way she handles those is to disguise them as aggression and (mere) lust. (This disguise is unconvincing to anypony who knows her well, but Protagonist would never do anything so gauche as to get to know anypony well).

7) From that point on, the pony is essentially a satellite character to the protagonist; her personality and goals become subservient to his.

Something I find particularly obnoxious regarding the Mane Six, or any of the Princesses or Cutie Mark Crusaders, as their unique and strong personalities and willpower are what make them all so charming.

Yes, I see the connection -- and I basically agree with you. The GS/PW writers are future Manosphere denizens in training.

I'm looking at that laundry list of typical bad self-insert features, and I'm contemplating parallels in other fandoms - particularly Harry Potter, where there was (and maybe still is) a trend of fics that tried to fashion a Dark/Evil/Independent/whichever Harry, who'd follow much the same points. He'd drop his inhibitions, exploit things like massive fortunes and the name of an apparently noble wizarding house, ride roughshod over established authority figures like Dumbledore, generally bear no resemblance to his canon self in favour of carrying out an authorial power fantasy, and, optionally but often, amass a harem comprising any and all named female characters.

If it was possible, it'd be interesting to compare the authors of such Harry Potter fics, authors of our own bad self-inserts, and those parts of the Manosphere who write fanfiction. The Harry Potter fandom likely skews more female than our own, but I suspect authors of that particular story type'd skew male, and any Venn diagram of the three categories would likely see a fair amount of overlap. The same attitudes seem like they'd produce similar fantasies and stories.

4586268

Well, no. That's a very very narrow view of history. The Manosphere is just the most recent manifestation of a trend of cultural misogyny that has persisted throughout history. The "misandrist feminism" has only ever been a tiny splinter of feminism as a whole, a fringe of a fringe that never really existed outside of academia prior to the Internet. It never had anything resembling power or influence, and has never been anything but a running joke. Even today, it's still almost exclusively an academic and Internet phenomenon, and has no real power. But anytime women have fought for equality and civil rights, there have been men ready and eager to attack and suppress them simply for daring to believe themselves equal to men. The current "anti-SJW", "anti-misandrist" nonsense is just the latest justification for a far older war.

When I was younger, the cover argument for their misogyny was "anti-political-correctness". When I was still younger, it was "anti-lesbian" back when being homosexual was almost universally seen as bad. Before my time it was "uppity, mannish women" who were the problem, women in the workplace who were "taking men's jobs" who were the problem. And before that, stretching at least as far back as the women's suffrage movement, such men were fighting against women who "disrupted the natural order of things" by leaving their "G-D-ordained place" in the home as the bearers of children, and attempting to "usurp the place and authority of men".

Throughout the decades and centuries, the words changed, the justifications changes, but the bedrock attitudes did not. The attitudes were always that women needed to know "their proper place", and that place was always seen as subservient to men. Women who dared step out of that place and declare themselves equal to a man and not subject to male authority were always the enemy. Women who dared assert that rape is wrong, and is the fault of the rapist, not the victim, were always the enemy. Women who thought they could have sex with anyone they wanted despite what the male-dominated church and culture thought were always the enemy. Women who thought they could be whatever they wanted to be, without needing male assent or approval, were always the enemy.

Whether you call it G-D's will, the "natural order", political correctness, or identity politics, the underlying misogyny is exactly the same. This current battle is the same old war under a different name, and with just as little real validity.

4586268

They not only won't be punished or suffer disadvantages for their unwarranted rudeness and even criminal physical aggressiveness toward others, but will be treated with extra special crunchy respect for their boldness. Even if the person they picked on is popular, royalty, has super-powers or considerable social skills. (For some reason, the person they pick on is often Celestia, who has all the aforementioned attributes. This lends credence to your theory, as she's a female authority figure).

I've seen even more often Blueblood cast in that role. I've noted this in the Rage Review Group before, so to some this will be a repetition and I apologise for it:

With stories where I get a sense that they'll go in a direction like this (non-pony/ possibly human protagonist with great powers invited to Celestia's court), I've taken to opening it in text file and using the search engine for Blueblood. Then, I see if he'll make an appearance during this royal court scene to spout racist bullsh*t and/or call for the OC to be put to death, to be then beaten up by said OC in some form. That, or Celestia will punish Blueblood severely for his random racism. He will then either be the villain or he'll not come back if the point was to show how powerful the OC is.

It's saddening how often this setup turns up. With no real variation either.

By the way: Nobody commented on the example I put in the thread, apart from several upvotes. So it must have struck a chord with some folks.

It was a self-insert OC berating a group of canon stallions for treating mares like prizes to compete over. He chewed them out for not respecting them properly, yelling at them until Rainbow Dash comes in and thanks him for standing up for mares.
By the way, Rainbow is part of his harem. As are many other canon mares. Those other stallions? They were upset by the OC developing this big harem because he's so nice and sensitive and all the other stallions are jerks.

I can't find it again, but I mentioned once an RP with someone who had a similar sense, though far more pronounced. In that, he wanted to be the hero who frees sex slaves who then love him and still act like sex slaves for him.

Is it just me, or is there some serious irony at play here?

4586556

It reminds me of an infamously bad game called Ride to Hell: Retribution. One of the many things for which it was criticized was it's "sex" scenes.

These all followed the same formula: The protagonist would stumble across a rape in progress where a woman was being menaced by one or more men. The protagonist would then violently kill these men. The woman would then have sex with the protagonist then and there. And by sex, I mean creepy glass eyed, fully clothed dry humping.

This happens multiple times.

Thanks for the follow, by the way.

4586556

People who write that sort of thing are incapable of irony.

But the motivation is just the same power fantasy drive. Women to them are little more than sex toys who lack any real sense of self-determination, and it's always the biggest and baddest who is their "proper" owner. "Freeing" them isn't the primary drive, owning them is. Self-insert protagonists in these sorts of stories aren't there to demonstrate their superior attractiveness resulting from their superior moral sense; they're there to demonstrate their right of ownership via conquest of their previous owners. It's just that, unlike nearly-identical stories common in the heyday of pulp sci-fi/fantasy, the concept of ownership and slavery is less socially acceptable, so it's couched in more politically correct terminology.

The protagonist is simply "protecting" the women in his seraglio from predation by others like him; and any woman who dares to dispute this, or step outside their "protection", is dealt with firmly and often brutally, either by the protagonist, or the author's "bad guys" surrogates if he's trying to cast the primary self-insert character in a more positive light. It's not the protagonists' fault they got brutally raped and beaten after defying him; if they'd known their place they'd have been protected from the evils of the world. By stepping out of his "protection" they deserve everything bad that happens to them.

This is an attitude that is culturally far too common even in supposedly civilized first-world nations like the US. I've heard big name megachurch preachers insist from their pulpits that women who are raped or otherwise suffer hardship do so not because of the vicissitudes of the world, or because of the "tyranny of evil men", but because they're not acting as properly submissive wives and daughters, and have left the "protection" of G-D as a result. They dared to consider themselves equal to men, so they were punished as a result.

4586534 That's a fantastic example of Blueblood, he's like a canary in a coalmine for bad writing. What I find more common though, and even more depressing, is when that exact same situation is written, but instead of Blueblood saying something incredibly racist or offensive and getting put down by the protagonist, it's a generic Canterlot Unicorn Noble, with the heavy implication that all the other Canterlot Unicorn Nobles agree with him (except Fancypants, the "good one.")

I think that's even worse. It's a lot more plausible to me that Blueblood is a sociopath or singularly unhinged, than that an entire class of ponies that spend their lives trying to suck up to/emulate Princess Celestia are so dedicated to doing something that will obviously piss her off.

4586868
I mostly agree with you. I'm not sure I'd say it's less bad with Blueblood, since going from spoiled ass to murderous bigot is a big jump. In fact, I wish more writers created an OC for that role, but that only works if they put in the effort to make her/him an actual character and not, as you explained, a representation of StupidEvil Nobles.
4586601
Gladly!

And ugh. That sounds bad. I mean, I get it: Have the perks of being a creep with the benefits of looking down on "real" creeps.
Also, poor Thunderlane. He was the one getting yelled at. Much like Blueblood, Thunderlane has become the go-to creep for much of the fandom even though there's no real reason (unlike the former, who at least was an ass).

4587204 True, a fleshed-out OC would be better than either Blueblood or an unnamed noble. Heck, Blueblood is a comic-canon diplomat for Faust's sake!

And I've noticed that about Thunderlane as well. I think it's because early fanon had him dating twins, thus establishing him in manosphere terms as a "Chad." Now that I think about it, that could probably apply to Blueblood. But I'm certain the writers of these fics have no resentment issues with males they perceive as being more attractive to women than themselves, no, not at all. :raritywink:

4587293
Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. I'd chalked it up to his colour scheme, which was possibly the second-darkest in the show's run up to that point, right behind Nightmare Moon. Plus the mohawk. His dark colours make him stand out:
derpicdn.net/img/view/2012/6/19/9992__safe_screencap_cloudchaser_cloud+kicker_dizzy+twister_flitter_helia_rainbowshine_rumble_spike_thunderlane_hurricane+fluttershy_anemometer_youtube.png

And I've noticed that about Thunderlane as well. I think it's because early fanon had him dating twins, thus establishing him in manosphere terms as a "Chad."

I count myself lucky that I have no idea what that means.

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