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Kkat


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Feb
24th
2017

What Story Do You Want to Tell? · 11:24am Feb 24th, 2017

I had not intended to post a blog today. Unfortunately, something has happened that I felt the need to caution everyone about. I've spent some time coming up with additional content, so the blog is actually about something other than this first bit. But sadly, the blog has to start out with a warning.

I had my laptop stolen! :applecry:

Last night, a thief made off with my backpack, which included work and personal items, as well as electronics including my laptop. The laptop was not password protected, so the thief potentially had/has access to my passwords and accounts for the last several years.

Before you get too alarmed, there is no evidence that the laptop was turned on (or, at least, that the internet was accessed from it) in the hours immediately following the theft; my home computer monitors tabs which automatically open if the laptop's browser is started up. I have changed the passwords of all social sites that I regularly use, including Google.plus (for YouTube), Steam and FIMfiction. Likewise with shopping sites such as Amazon and Ebay. Just to be safe, I've cancelled my credit card and have a new one. I'm not too worried about the damage that could be done with the information they could retrieve. And, of course, I have filed a report with the police.

However, there is a non-zero chance that they might find an obscure way to cause trouble. If you encounter someone with my name who is not behaving out of character for me (or worse, tries to ask you for money), check with me here on FIMfiction first to make sure it is actually me. Thanks.

We all have a story. I’m not talking about an MLP fanfic. I’m talking about our life story. We are all in the process of writing our autobiography. This is a truth touched upon by the stellar MLP: FiM episode “Slice of Life”.

Imagine, if you would, that it is the eve of your life. That you are telling your story to a new generation, perhaps sitting with your grandchildren. What would your story be?

from comedian Greg Giraldo (as immortalized by Lazyboy’s “Underwear Goes Inside the Pants”):

Obesity. They say we're in the middle of an obesity epidemic. An epidemic like it is polio. Like we'll be telling our grand kids about it one day. The Great Obesity Epidemic of 2004.

"How'd you get through it grandpa?"

"Oh, it was horrible Johnny, there was cheesecake and pork chops everywhere."

On a less humorous note, I am reminded of a video that I was linked: a message by Markiplier (of YouTube fame) who was emploring people to show each other basic respect, even if they disagree with or hate the person they are showing respect to.

from Markiplier:

“What’s going to happen in fifty years when the generations that follow us look back and see that their forefathers were too afraid to treat each other with the most basic level of respect?”

What story do you want to tell?

When they ask you how you got through a hardship or a tragedy, when they ask you “how did you get through it?” or “what did you do next?” when you were struggling, what do you want your answer to be?

art from the Ask Ditzy Ghoul tumblr

I would like to do something a bit unusual, and share some valuable insight from a man whom I consider to be quite wise and worth listening to, Andy Stanley.

from Andy Stanley:

“At the root of most messes is a breakdown of virtue. Virtue is integrity. Virtue is honesty. Virtue is patience. Virtue is self-control. Virtue is goodness. And when you scratch beneath the surface of any of the messes we’ve made, somewhere in that mess we demonstrated a lack of virtue; there was a breakdown of virtue.”

Like being too lazy to password protect your laptop? :trixieshiftleft:

It should be no surprise to anyone who follows my blog, or has read my story, that this statement resonates with my world view. My love of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic was born in the emphasis of virtue that we see in the show’s lessons and that was laid out from the first episode with the Elements of Harmony. It is at the core of the message of Fallout: Equestria: be better.

Yet Stanley doesn’t stop there. Rather, the statement is a prelude to this insight:

You don’t clean up a failure of virtue with another failure in virtue. But here’s the problem: every mess comes with some bad options. And those bad options always involve a failure in virtue.”

“I’ll just sweep this under the rug.” “I’ll just take out another loan.” “I’ll just tell a little lie.” “If I ignore it, maybe somebody else will take care of it for me.” …Really, is there any one of us who hasn’t gone for these bad options more than once? How often did they actually fix the problem rather than just prolonging it or even making it worse? How often did they require yet another failure of virtue – telling yet another lie, for instance – just to maintain?

Sometimes these answers can seem reasonable, even justified. But I’m not asking what choices you can justify to yourself. Instead, think on which choices would be a source of personal pride -- not shame -- to have revealed. You are writing the story of the person you are: which story do you want to tell?

art from the Ask Ditzy Ghoul tumblr

When faced with difficulties, I encourage you to put that at the forefront when you consider your options.

I, myself, strive for that. Persistently, if not always successfully. I fail in virtue far more often than I would like. (To quote Homage, “Every pony has done something they regret.”) But my story, like yours, is a work in progress. And as an author, I know that if the writer is putting effort into it, stories can get better as they progress.

I hope mine does. And I hope yours does too.

"Reggie" by Rublegun

Report Kkat · 2,162 views ·
Comments ( 28 )
Noc

So sorry to hear about your laptop. I’m actually in the process of writing up a digital security guide, and the very first thing that came to mind when I saw your warning was to wonder whether you’d encrypted your laptop, or at least password-protected your account. Considering how many laptops and smartphones get snatched every day …

At any rate, I’d suggest you keep an eye on the activity history sections of your various accounts (Google’s is especially thorough), and to enable two-step authentication wherever you can (I recently found out FimFic supports this!). Sounds like you already got a handle on the rest.

Ah, virtue. So elusive at times, it seems. And it’s frightening how many people not only abandon virtue on a whim, but genuinely aren’t bothered by it – possibly, at least in some cases, because they honestly don’t consider some virtues to be all that, well, virtuous. For instance, I wonder what someone thinks about theft if they live on the streets and literally need to steal food every day to live. (An extreme example, sure, but it isn’t like it doesn’t happen.) Would such a person in such a situation really consider not stealing as virtuous, if doing it themselves means no longer eating?

I always thought the idea of morality (along with subsets like virtues) is all relative, anyway, depending entirely on a person’s circumstances. Society tells us what behaviors affect the common good and how; it’s up to us to learn from that what we will.

Anyway. Late-night pontificating over! Love the Ghoul!:derpytongue2: pics.

What story do I want to tell?

When people turn to fictional characters, it's often they want an escape. The stories of these people shelter us from our daily lives; they save us, even if only a little while. But when we really give in, become invested, let ourselves be vulnerable, something changes. We begin to feel that we know them. It's no longer just an escape but part of us, something that makes us who we are.

These characters teach us that incredible adversity can be overcome. That people can love each other forever. That magic can be real, and even if miracles never happen to us, we begin to go through life believing that, someday, they could.

Honestly, my life has been so fundamentally changed by a simple children's show in ways that I can only begin to describe. I've met and made so many friends, so many wonderful people that I never knew existed, and shared so many good moments with each and every one of them, and I wouldn't change that for the world. These people have helped me through some difficult times whether they realise it or not, and in turn, I've also changed lives for the better.

Lemme tell you a secret. One of my friends who, sadly I fell out of talking with, once told me that they wouldn't even be around if I hadn't bothered to make friends with them. Imagine that. Being told you saved someone's life just by making friends. A gesture in name, so simple and holding a vast amount of meaning has the ability to effect someone for the rest of their life.

I probably wouldn't be the person I am today if it weren't for this show.

gahddangit kkat why do you have to be so philosophical :derpytongue2:

First, I'm sorry that happened to you Kkat. No doubt upon opening it the asshole was stunned at how much mlp fan art one girl can stuff onto a hard drive:trollestia:

As for what you said after... Hmm...

I don't like to talk about my beliefs much, but I do believe in God. And although I don't subscribe to any faith, and I'll say why in a moment, i try to follow Jesus words and how God wants me to live... to little success.

I mentioned respect before. At my old church, out of respect, people let something bad happen. Because of some misbefotten sense of honoring others, a wickedness was done, and was done for years. Oh sure, they old buzzards and pew warmers will cluck and sigh about how tragic it ended, but not a one lifted a finger. Hypocrites all

Those... were dark days. I couldn't do anything, I was a kid, but I still blamed myself. Eventually I figured I was a failure not even God could love and proceeded to make an ass of myself

The whole time I lied to myself, said this was what made me a man... while in my teenage years. When the lie failed, and the beer and pot faded and I was alone... I blamed everyone else. My church, God, my parents for not being better or for drinking to much or for being distant cunts (I knew they had both suffered, my dad had ptsd, my mom had a hard life, and they were better them most) or my little brother for being the reason they gave up booze or how I could never be the favorite son, or a million other excuses.

One day though... I was just sitting in my room, chilling I guess, being all smug cause I made mom cry, when of all things, Forrest Gump was on. And... I saw the officer, and how he was so bitter for so long, and my dad was the same... I knew I was going to one day give an account of my life, and. We all will. And compared to the suffering of our soldiers, my problems and teenage whimperings were nothing but bullshit. Even then, I said "Well, its to late, I'm a failure. Never try never fail." I've finally turned myself around, got my GED going, and still the demons of the past whisper in my ears with things I want to hear or things that wound me as much today as they did in my childhood when one parent or the other or both said it.

Will you make excuses? Be a failure? Blame the world and all on it, except yourself?

I'm afraid that simply wont do. When we are called to tell the story of our life, only the truth will do. And for me, the truth is...

All I'll be able to say to God is "I tried."

Better get to living folks.

well theirs a lot to tell, if I ever do become a grandfather, something that may not become a thing for me, as such is life. But as someone who keeps an ear out for intreting stuff, I'll tell about how the internet, the chaotic hive of villainy as it is, was the most important tool for exposing the powers at be for the true crooks they are, and how they did their best to control the internet, only for their plans to fail. But history is still being made, I just hope for sunshine and rainbows down the road.

hi hi

Having a laptop stolen is pretty awful, especially when it has so much of your irreplaceable work on it. :ajsleepy:


As for the rest, I honestly hope that my personal story fades from history, and the sooner the better. As someone who prefers privacy over publicity, it's hard to imagine just how embarrassing it would be if people were to read all about my life.

But if you know me, or remember my sentiments from earlier posts where this sort of thing comes up, it may come as no surprise that I dislike virtue ethics. Virtues may make a decent elementary overview of human behavior and morality, a passable ethics 101 topic. But when you dig any deeper, virtues become so self-referential, so self-justified that they lose their ability to inform decisions, to the point of being tautological. They encourage black and white, good and evil thinking, using rationalizations to form elegant theories rather than empirical evidence to investigate the inelegant, messy, and complicated ways that people's minds work.

Although research shows that there are certainly people who internalize shame and self-depreciation to the point where they don't feel there is any point to trying to improve, it also shows us that most of the people who lead the way on unethical behavior are confident that what they are doing is correct. It is one of the things that pop culture consistently gets wrong, and the self-righteous often overlook. But bullies tend to think that their actions are good and correct, and people who believe in a just world really do think that the success of their actions is something to be proud of.

Interesting take on your life story. It's a topic that has recently been extensively studied by personality psychologists. One of the most surprising findings is that mostly only western cultures have such a notion.

Your life story is connected to your well-being. More than anything, it has to be cohesive, engaging, and believeable. Agency themes apparently lead to better outcomes than communion, which was surprising to me when I first learned about it.

Just something for you to think about :)

First to say what's on my mind regarding the theft. You had your laptop stolen? I hope the police can find your stolen laptop and backpack with it, it could be a driven effort to identify and locate the thief by vehicle or person. I'm sure the community at large would want to help if you would want. Definitely not a witch hunt. :pinkiesad2:

4434743

"Humanity alone possesses a God. The power to transcend the now… the inner God called 'Possibility'."

I believe in the potential of possibility to do many positive things in life. It spurs the heart to outshine the negative. To do better, to do more, to be better, to be more, to try to fulfill the potential every one of us have.

What story do I wish to tell? Whatever comes to mind, but especially one of perseverance. In my young age I have the front row seat of the world's events unfolding and technology continuing to improve. To bear witness to history before it is written in a textbook, it seems to be a double-edged sword. I endure, I remain, I hold steadfast in the face of adversary and conflict. One time it was disease, the next, severe weather, and now it appears to be the threat of international conflict again. Storms must come to pass and the turbulent times shall as well.

Comment posted by Ebony Gryphon deleted Feb 24th, 2017

I'm no wordsmith or anywhere decent in expressing myself, nor generally have much of import to bring to discussions. Still I want to thank you for writing this. We've all done something we regret. Perhaps not to the extremes as in the wasteland, but I recognise several elements of a failure in virtue within myself, loathe as I am to admit it. Blogs like yours are a reminder and inspiration to be better, do better, or if nothing else at least remind us to be aware of how we could be. My tale may not be some grand adventure, but hopefully one day it'll at least be a virtuous one.

Virtues certainly seem to be tested most in bad scenarios following bad choices: among other things, it's easy to be honest when you have nothing to be ashamed of or nothing to fear in telling the truth.

So far as my life story goes I want to be remembered as someone who was kind and who stood by their moral principles, though my biggest fear with it is just floating through life without making as much effort to help others or follow my dreams, as corny as that sounds, as I should.

4434812

Do you have any links on that?

I'm just curious about it now.

4435088
Academic paper: http://journals1.scholarsportal.info/details/10892680/v05i0002/100_tpols.xml
I have a PDF if you can't access that. PM me for it

Another academic paper: http://is.muni.cz/el/1421/podzim2013/PSB_443/um/5__Oct_29__Narrative_Identity.pdf

A nice, comprehensive summary: https://redemptiveself.northwestern.edu/docs/publications/1698511162490a0d856d825.pdf

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrative_identity

I also have a powerpoint from a course on personality I took, if you're interested. (PM me)

4435099

Thanks, I'll look through that.

All I can really say is that I'm glad I've got people in my life that I can count on to be there for a good long time.

You're a hell of a human being, Kkat. Glad I happened to find this here blog of yours.:twilightsmile:

4434794

Virtues may make a decent elementary overview of human behavior and morality, a passable ethics 101 topic. But when you dig any deeper, virtues become so self-referential, so self-justified that they lose their ability to inform decisions, to the point of being tautological.

"Jesus Christ. see? This is WHY I don't talk to you lot anymore! I give you all simple instructions, ten easy rules, I send messengers, write it on stone tablets, what, do I have to writ it on a bar napkin before it sinks in?"
-God

Ultimately it comes back to the ten. Thou shalt not lie, shall not steal, shall not kill, basic truths that all men of faith and lack there of can agree upon, and those have one simple premise: the golden rule. To treat others the way we'd like to be treated

They encourage black and white, good and evil thinking, using rationalizations to form elegant theories rather than empirical evidence to investigate the inelegant, messy, and complicated ways that people's minds work.

Because if people didn't do that the world would be in a worse spot.

Is the man here

the same as this man?

Empirically, legally, and rationally, yes. They both killed someone. The evidence is clear, they are directly responsible in the death of others.

So why do we feel for one, and not the other? One killed a man while robbing a store to provide for his own, the other took up the mantle of law and acted in the way he felt the court had failed.

We feel for the latter because we, for one reason or another, are born with and visceral and deeply rooted sense of justice.

And thats dumb. There is no justice, lifes not fair, the worlds not fair, and its not supposed to be! But at the very least we should see those two acts as not being one in the same, wouldn't you agree?

4435871

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about.

Ultimately it comes back to the ten. Thou shalt not lie, shall not steal, shall not kill, basic truths that all men of faith and lack there of can agree upon, and those have one simple premise: the golden rule.

What ten are you referring to? You listed three things. Are you referring to Asereth ha-D'bharîm, the Ten Sayings? I don't think "Have no other gods but me," is something that men without faith tend to agree with, or has anything to do with the golden rule.

Because if people didn't do that the world would be in a worse spot.

What is the that, which you are referring to? Are you referring to black and white thinking, or taking a nuanced empirical approach? If you mean the former, than I'm afraid I must disagree. If you mean the latter, I'm not really sure to what degree it has caught on in human civilization, but I the evidence shows that there are cases where it has helped to some degree. If nowhere else, psychology has changed the way a lot of people think about things like eyewitness testimony, police lineups, and other forms of cognitive evidence; which can improve the accuracy of the criminal justice system.

So why do we feel for one, and not the other?

I'm not sure who the we is supposed to be here. Most people with mirror neurons have the capacity to feel for both, but people generally don't develop a sense of fairness or justice until about the age of six, and that is still at an age where environmental factors can have a major influence on how it ends up being expressed.

And thats dumb. There is no justice, lifes not fair, the worlds not fair, and its not supposed to be! But at the very least we should see those two acts as not being one in the same, wouldn't you agree?

Human beings are peculiar because we found a more efficient way to interact than the otherwise ubiquitous law of nature, to kill or be killed. Being able to work together and cooperate has been an unprecedented boon for the species. The inanimate world may or may not be fair, but within the bounds of human civilization, it is what we choose to make it. Justice and fairness have both been tremendously beneficial to the human race, and we can give up on that to our own detriment. Existence isn't set in stone, the world changed to get where we are today, and it will continue to change for better or worse in the future.


Every day I have heard it at least once - the timeless phrase that "life is not fair," as if it were an excuse for all problems, or an eternal apology for what should have come to pass and, through the incompetence or unwillingness of others, never will.

- Elizabeth Broomfield

Comment posted by Ebony Gryphon deleted Feb 25th, 2017

Once again a superb and quite insightful blog. It certainly caused quite the discussion in the comments.
On a completely unrelated note has anyone recently done the New Vegas dlc Deadpool Money and if so am I alone in believing how completely and utterly FREAKY IT IS!?
...
Sorry just had to ask that and get it out my system.

I'm so sorry to hear about your laptop! :ajsleepy: I remember when I was in school, I was carrying some valuable things that were only of value to me and someone got into my bag while I was helping a friend and stole it all. To this day I've only managed to replace a few of the items missing. :fluttercry:

Like being too lazy to password protect your laptop?

I'm sorry Kkat, but I burst out laughing at this because I say things like this to myself all the time. :rainbowlaugh:

I, myself, strive for that. Persistently, if not always successfully. I fail in virtue far more often than I would like.

Same, but every time I fail, which happens more times than I'd like, I remind myself to get back on my feet and try again. :moustache:

I hope things get better for you! :twilightsmile:

hi hi

After going back and re-reading my original post, I feel like that came out far more terse than I had intended. Occupational hazard of checking the internet before work, perhaps.

To be clear, I don't dislike virtues in the abstract. I enjoyed watching Friendship is Magic, and the elements of harmony, Honesty, Generosity, Kindness, Laughter, Loyalty, and I guess Magic too even if it's harder to apply. I enjoyed watching Avatar: Last Airbender too, even though I know in reality, that Fire, Earth, Air, and Water aren't base elements. I don't even really mind the alignment system from Dungeons and Dragons as a gameplay mechanic. And there are plenty of times, usually times when the stakes aren't very high, when having a simplified abstraction is all well and good.

When the stakes are high though, and people are trying to figure out what is causing the messes we're in, I think it is important to know about some fundamental attribution errors, how cognitive dissonance works, the way the amygdala and the pre-frontal cortex interact with each other under stress, and how salience affects people's estimations, among other things. Whenever I hear or read someone trying to boil all problems down to a single cause to confront, I am made wary though. I've read and heard many arguments that begin with a call to virtues, and end in cruelty to others; but there really isn't any cause to get into that here.

I suppose my thesis is, when faced with a tricky dilemma, having a variety of tools at hand might be better than focusing on just one. Sometimes conflicting moral directives need to be balanced, like the need for due diligence vs the need to act promptly, the means vs the ends, or considering one group's happiness vs the free will and agency of another.

4435961
Okay, lets try this again...

First off, I want to apologize to both you and Icekatze for this. My last post... well, I can't say I didn't mean it, but I didn't like how I made my case. I was uneccesarily mean spirited and harsh to Icekatz. Whatever my passion is on this matter, that level of dick was absolutely not needed in this instance. I've since composed myself. and again, apologize if I irritated either of you/

What ten are you referring to? You listed three things. Are you referring to Asereth ha-D'bharîm, the Ten Sayings? I don't think "Have no other gods but me," is something that men without faith tend to agree with, or has anything to do with the golden rule.

This is what got my goat when I first read and sent into full raging there:facehoof: You know exactly what I'm speaking of. And no matter how much you talk down to others, no matter how much you regard God as bullshit, the Judeo Christian commandments have been a cornerstone of Western society since the word go. And frankly if it wasn't for the work ethics of the horribly bigoted free love hating puritans all the comforts and freedoms you enjoy wouldn't have lasted half a generation.

And technica;y those without faith aren't breaking that commandment. They aren't putting any deity before God correct? You lot are just being silly:rainbowkiss:

Because if people didn't do that the world would be in a worse spot.

What is the that, which you are referring to? Are you referring to black and white thinking, or taking a nuanced empirical approach? If you mean the former, than I'm afraid I must disagree. If you mean the latter, I'm not really sure to what degree it has caught on in human civilization, but I the evidence shows that there are cases where it has helped to some degree. If nowhere else, psychology has changed the way a lot of people think about things like eyewitness testimony, police lineups, and other forms of cognitive evidence; which can improve the accuracy of the criminal justice system.

Because most people recognize first and foremost who and what humans are. Fallen people in a harsh world. We all know we would do something horrible if pushed far enough. To say that we should mould our laws around empirical data is taking from that hands of judge and jury and in the hands of those who ascribe to a sort of moral relativism. that a man killing a man who killed his son is the same as a thug who shot down a store clerk because he needed money.

Science and psychiatry are excellent tools for the court to have, but they are merely that. Tools. And also... well, there's always the trouble of ego in the shrink and stem fields. And applying the concept of solely using empirical data as means of court procedure puts the world into the very same black and whiter world you spoke against/

I'm not sure who the we is supposed to be here. Most people with mirror neurons have the capacity to feel for both, but people generally don't develop a sense of fairness or justice until about the age of six, and that is still at an age where environmental factors can have a major influence on how it ends up being expressed.

Again, thats your bias talking. And I assume you don't have children of your own, so your not speaking from experience but parroting others. So, take it from the head honcho of the ones who took the infants to the back while church went on, was an infant babysitter and ex church member who watched the little darlings for years, the truth none would say:, little babies are horrid monsters. How else could they act? They cant tell us I'm hungry or bored or scared, so they scream. Within a couple of years though, the concepts of play mates and sharing begin to take hold and now mommy and daddy don't act like they did before when the baby cried. Then the words come, like "mine" and "no" and "no fair" Hopefully though the babe has parents who just grab the tot anyway and firmly enforce the notion that one doesn't get what one wants by tantrum.

By four, we see what the tender years have done, and can usually tell pretty easily who gritt their teeth and let junior scream and those who let things go because it was easier. And here we see where gender plays a role: people often say that girls are smarter and easier to handle in terms of what is expected of them, that they tend to be tidier and less prone to rambunctiousness like boys are. They're also allowed to be bratty more since its expected while boys are told to be brave little troopers and given a little less kid gloves treatment. But by then, the concept that hey hitting aforementioned bratty sister for being her or taking candy from friends is a bad thing and ends with not dessert or tv for a week is at least a concept in tiny minds. Its not all there, but its there.

At five, children have long since learned of right and wrong to varying degrees. Again, boys are naturally more rambunctious, or thought to be, so naturally teachers tend to focus on keeping them in check and on task. Girls are more able to focus on math and following instructions, but also tend to have more problem with the idea of not taking things or bullying others. Boys are expected to obey but are given more leeway to be boys, girls are allowed to be girls but often lack the same sense of discipline boys have.

But both little boys and girls are keenly aware being hit hurts and taking things from others is bad.

By six, most normal children are fully aware of whats expected of them and if raised right know why certain things are wrong. Its a matter more nurture then nature thing. Worse thing I ever heard a mother say was "What? Oh no, not my little girl!"

In short, no, people develop morals well before pre school, and trust me, you can tell which kids were raided right in the first five seconds

And thats dumb. There is no justice, lifes not fair, the worlds not fair, and its not supposed to be! But at the very least we should see those two acts as not being one in the same, wouldn't you agree?

Human beings are peculiar because we found a more efficient way to interact than the otherwise ubiquitous law of nature, to kill or be killed. Being able to work together and cooperate has been an unprecedented boon for the species. The inanimate world may or may not be fair, but within the bounds of human civilization, it is what we choose to make it. Justice and fairness have both been tremendously beneficial to the human race, and we can give up on that to our own detriment. Existence isn't set in stone, the world changed to get where we are today, and it will continue to change for better or worse in the future.

But again, what is justice? We agree that stealing is wrong, but where one group jails another demands quadruple recompense, while another views stolen bread as years in prison in one place and havings ones hands lobbed off in another. And no, justice and fairness weren't anywhere near anyones minds in the old days. In fact, there was one thing that people had and still do..

Self interest. We at first joined tribes together for protection. From there the tribes became nations, and sometimes empires, but none have ever functioned beyond a certain size until the roman era. And until the era of the early jews who did make discrepancies in how law was done (while for much of the world slaughter was a daily occurence, for the Hebrews the idea of the death penalty going to any but he most heinous of crimes was unheard of, and for all the talk of "But crusades" the christian empire were cute and cuddly teddy bears to the muslim counterparts and and to the world at large the same) and they acted on that because God said so.

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You know exactly what I'm speaking of.

No. I really didn't know, that's why I asked. You are assuming an awful lot about me, my faith, and my beliefs.

The fact of the matter is that some derivation of the Golden Rule, or likewise Silver Rule, has existed in pretty much every human society that we have records of.

The Egyptian goddess Ma'at commands it in "The Eloquent Peasant," as early as 1650 BC. In ancient China, Confucious suggests that people "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself."

The Ten Sayings themselves have notable similarities to passages in the preceding Hittite Vassal Treaties.

The tendency to reciprocate is an extremely common human characteristic.

Again, thats your bias talking.

No, that is peer reviewed science. Social Influences on Inequality Aversion in Children, Katherine McAuliffe, Peter R. Blake et al. 2013.

And no, justice and fairness weren't anywhere near anyones minds in the old days.

I find this assertion to be suspect. Concepts of justice and fairness come up in some of the earliest texts people have ever found.

Self interest. We at first joined tribes together for protection.

People have a need for interpersonal relationships, and tend to get depressed without them. Empathy goes well beyond simple self interest, and cannot be explained by self interest alone. Self interest can't explain why someone would donate money to a flood victim on the other side of the world who will never be able to reciprocate. Self interest doesn't explain why people will sacrifice their lives for abstract ideals.

and for all the talk of "But crusades" the christian empire were cute and cuddly teddy bears to the muslim counterparts

In my opinion, the fact that you can qualify war, looting, forced slavery, and massacre as "cute and cuddly" only illustrates the weakness of this ethical viewpoint.


I am not usually one to try to reveal my beliefs to other people, but I would make one suggestion, to refute the idea that ignorance is bliss. If you do believe that God created the universe, then the natural world is the single least mediated, most un-translated example of God's work.

Not sure if it was brought up before but since you covered the topic with Markiplier's video, I would like to ask you to check out this one as well:

Jack is PewDiePie's other friend, a very close one and while his message is a bit more chaotic, he gets a lot of backlash for showing his real feelings for Pewds. I could see Jack as a character in Fallout: Equestria or any other story really. He stands by his friends, showing them his support even if he openly criticizes their actions and doesn't agree with them. I think that the epitome of a friend is to help you see the error of your ways and then help you make up for it or support you while you do it yourself. A friend who only agrees with you and defends you even if you're wrong is a Yes-man, not a friend, I think.

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First off... doh!

Again, I goofed. i've had these discussions, and more often then not... well, yeah,

No, that is peer reviewed science.

Again probably written by a bloke whose never spent five minutes alone with a child never mind having one of their own. Again, I'm going off paterns ive seen.

I find this assertion to be suspect.

Why? Until recently, the last hundred years to be exact, mankind has reaped the harvest of our works, enjoying luxuriees and access to goods once unheard by even the wealthiest of kings. And before that, The US had enjoyed their own prosperity and laid the blue print for the world.

Up until then, the way to life was simple: survive to the point knocking someone up or being knocked up, then made sure they littles survived to do same, and rinse and repeat. Everything else was optional

People have a need for interpersonal relationships, and tend to get depressed without them. Empathy goes well beyond simple self interest, and cannot be explained by self interest alone. Self interest can't explain why someone would donate money to a flood victim on the other side of the world who will never be able to reciprocate. Self interest doesn't explain why people will sacrifice their lives for abstract ideals.

Exactly. Its about what they need. And I'm not saying self interest is a bad thing.

And people donate like that to feel good. Just ignore that your kid is probably some warlords plaything who reads him your letter while he pockets the cash. Cynical... you bet your ass. I've seen and read one to many one of those things going bad. Its nice people want to do good, but really...

And which ideals do you have in mind?

In my opinion, the fact that you can qualify war, looting, forced slavery, and massacre as "cute and cuddly" only illustrates the weakness of this ethical viewpoint.

Guess again. In the race to the bottom I did indeed compare and contrast the full extent of mans inhumanit to man, particularly in terms of religion! And compared to Mohammed progeny the worst of catholicisms filthiest priests and most blood thirsty of their crusardes were as gentle as lambs.

And both pale compared to the pagans and druids of Europe. Gentle Gaia my aching ass, their idea of celerbating their goddess was sacrifice that would have the mayans sick to their stomach. And even the muslims were nearly single handled detered by sheer brutality ordered Vlad Tepis. And keep in mind Vlad did protect his people...

War never changes kiddo. To the victors go the spoils. This had gone on for millenia before and will go on for millenia after, but the Crusaders did have scruples. And again, compared to the middles easts war mongers and the deeply entrenched pagan cultures of the homelands, one can hardly blame them if they took what was the most ethical route. Annhilation. Do you believe that Islams faithful then would have regarded or honored any treaties or agreements? No, they would have laughed right in their faces then killed as many infidels that they could. And for all that bloodshed, the crusaders lost their kingdom there within a year

What of the gentle and nature revering druids and pagans? Surely ones o in tuned with the natural world wouldn't... whoops, no, apparently goes that even their mother goddess were so blood thirsty the mayans would have been disgusted. So, the message was sent: burn your altars, disband your covens, and confess your sins and join the true faith, or make us chase you down. And trust me, when you made Crusader run, they brought an ass whopping with them.

One must remember that even Jesus advised his disciples to carry a sword, and to sell their robes to buy one if they didn't already do so. It was, and is, a dangerous world. And folks wonder where I get my cheerful dispostion and bright smiling outlook in terms of a worldview

I am not usually one to try to reveal my beliefs to other people, but I would make one suggestion, to refute the idea that ignorance is bliss. If you do believe that God created the universe, then the natural world is the single least mediated, most un-translated example of God's work.

Really? Non existent God forbid if man had to learn to adapt to a harsh planet in preparation for dealing with each other

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Again probably written by a bloke whose never spent five minutes alone with a child never mind having one of their own.

There is no "probably," about it. Since I linked to the actual study, anyone can read for themselves the exact methodology used to conduct the study, including how they interacted with children during the study.

Your rhetoric is contradictory though, so it is hard for me to address it. On one hand you say:

We feel for the latter because we, for one reason or another, are born with and visceral and deeply rooted sense of justice.

But then you go and say:

In short, no, people develop morals well before pre school, and trust me, you can tell which kids were raided right in the first five seconds

By distinguishing between kids that develop morals and those that don't, you're directly contradicting your assertion that we all have a visceral and deeply rooted sense of justice. I'm arguing that it is something that people develop, and if you're willing to accept that, I'm not sure what the argument is at that point.

Up until then, the way to life was simple: survive to the point knocking someone up or being knocked up, then made sure they littles survived to do same, and rinse and repeat.

The Code of Hammurabi may seem a little silly to contemporary sensibilities, but it is one of the oldest surviving texts of any length that we have been able to translate. Dated at somewhere between 1792 and 1749 BC, its entire purpose is to lay down rules for resolving disputes in a way that Hammurabi considered fair. That is a good bit earlier than the founding of the United States.

And people donate like that to feel good.

People generally don't form interpersonal connections with the people they're donating to, and people don't always feel good even after they've helped. Helping out can be stressful and demoralizing.

And as long as I live I shall remember walking along an empty corridor and suddenly hearing, from behind a closed door, a scream of pain and horror such as I have never heard since. The door opened, and the researcher poked out her head and told me to run and make a hot drink for the young man sitting with her. She had just had to give him the news that in retaliation for his own outspokenness against his country’s regime, his mother had been seized and executed.

Every day of my working week in my early 20s I was reminded how incredibly fortunate I was, to live in a country with a democratically elected government, where legal representation and a public trial were the rights of everyone.

Every day, I saw more evidence about the evils humankind will inflict on their fellow humans, to gain or maintain power. I began to have nightmares, literal nightmares, about some of the things I saw, heard, and read.

And yet I also learned more about human goodness at Amnesty International than I had ever known before.

Amnesty mobilises thousands of people who have never been tortured or imprisoned for their beliefs to act on behalf of those who have. The power of human empathy, leading to collective action, saves lives, and frees prisoners. Ordinary people, whose personal well-being and security are assured, join together in huge numbers to save people they do not know, and will never meet.

- J.K. Rowling

People who sacrifice their lives for others don't feel anything. They are dead. There is literally no self-interest in being dead. World War 2 has some particularly clear cut examples coming from the Soviet Union, where many of the people followed the state's non-religious philosophy and thus were not even expecting an afterlife following the event. Lieutenant I. I. Ivanov and Yekaterina Zelenko are two notable examples out of many, each making the decision to ram their fighters into German bombers, killing themselves in the process.

Guess again...

No. I find that the double standards you are promoting are only further proving my point.

Thanks for humoring me all the same. But as interesting as this discussion is, I already feel bad about having this argument in Kkat's blog post, so I'm going to take five for now.

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uh, I think this conversation started by me being cranky sourpuss, and from went discussions of how one should use empirical in regards to court rulings. then from there it took a left into neuro science and the fact that all children are little turds who will grow up into absolute like their parents, then turned in methodology of the ancient rulers

Ii have absolutely no idea how we got here. But apparently in invetween it all we both knew I was right:trollestia:

And I'll see your dead soldier and raise you one betrayed by his pwn

And yes, sorry Kkat for whatever happeened here

If I ever become a grandfather, I won't tell my grandchildren about virtue. This is a term so long gone it is about as meaningful as the word "art" as far as I have observed. No, I will not tell them of the good they can unleash in the world, TV shows already do that to the point where it's meaningless to speak of it.

Instead, I will help them find it. 10 years ago my father told me that i cannot make a living off of playing videogames, that it was impossible, and yet in this day and age we have so many people who thrive from "sitting in a chair and clicking", from pewdiepie to the esports scene. These chikdren will find their talents, and I will keep in mind every last one. I will help them assemble a picture of what a brighter tomorrow could be like if they put their minds into it. I will help them gather rubble into a foundation, one they call home.

And when my body can no longer carry the burden of my soul, I will look out for them, not as a guardian angel but as a spirit roaming this God-forsaken world, watching as the people who were once pitiful and meaningless become gods of the human race.

In my time, from what I know and have seen. If I was a grandfather I'd tell my grandchildren that life, is all about perspective. I'd teach them that they need to see the other side of the coin before they can claim right or wrong. I'd also teach them that the world isn't always so black and white. That some of the worst acts in the world could all be caused by the best of intentions. I'd teach them about virtues, and that they'd need to find what their's were. if nothing more than to keep themselves human. :trixieshiftleft:

That the world will tear every fabric of humanity from them if they let it. I'd teach them how to fight for what they believe in, and encourage them to never give up. Even if defeat was certain. I'd tell them how much I loved them, and that we all have something we regret. Finally. I'd beg them for forgiveness. :ajsleepy: To forgive me for my actions, my lack thereof and for all the times I let them and the world down. Knowingly and not.

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