Celestia and Luna · 4:44am Mar 14th, 2016
Now, first things first, as indicated by the ‘Crossover’ tag in both these stories, the opinions expressed here and in my two stories aren’t necessarily canon. So take what I portray in the stories, and what I am saying here, with a grain of salt- it can’t be wrong, or right, because it is essentially my own personal headcannon.
So. What are Celestia and Luna? How powerful are they? I essentially classify them as demi-gods, on the same order of magnitude as the Greek Pantheon. They aren’t invincible, and they aren’t omnipotent or all-powerful, but they are immortal in that they won’t die of old age or standard disease and they are extremely powerful compared to the mortals around them. They can be killed; but not through normal means. It’s going to take a bit more planning than ‘stab the alicorn with a knife’ or ‘slip some poison into her tea’, but with the proper preparation and a lot of power, they can be killed, and with the proper application of power or other techniques, they can be incapacitated. But under normal circumstances, a normal pony, even a unicorn, can’t hope to delay or incapacitate Celestia or Luna for long.
Now, let’s talk about them individually. Celestia is… interesting. A lifelong politician who has perfected the ultimate, gently smiling poker face, who always remains calm and collected and cool no matter the situation. She is the planner, capable of convincing ponies with a silver tongue and guiding them towards her final goal without them even being aware that they are being manipulated. A master of the subtle arts of persuasion and politics. Yet, for all of that, she has a mischievous streak; she hides it well, so that anything that she doesn’t want to be associated with never quite manages to trace back to her, but she is the one responsible for buckets of water balanced over doors, or the whoopee cushion that is under Blueblood’s seat. If I were to assign her elements, she would be Magic, Kindness, and Laughter.
Luna, on the other hand, is the complete opposite. If there is one word to describe Luna, it is ‘passionate’. She’s Celestia’s counterpoint; impulsive, a mare of action and feelings and emotions, blunt with her views and with less patience for social niceties or social manipulation than her sister. An introvert, if you will, someone who prefers their own company with the exception of the few deep friendships that they make. She does enjoy being loved, though, in a general sense, and likes to try to keep a positive view of herself in the minds of the populace. She is much more serious than her sister, and throws her whole heart into whatever she is doing, one reason why she took it so hard when ponies dismissed her work with the night sky. If I were to assign her elements, it would be Honesty, Generosity, and Loyalty.
Now, for their powers. Celestia is first; a juxtaposition, of sorts. The mare who prides herself in always being in control is barely able to harness the full power of her celestial body; she’s in control of it inasmuch as it generally does what she wants, and when she wants it to. And boy, when she unleashes her power, the raw fire and fury of the Sun, it is a sight to behold. When measured on a traditional scale of ‘power’ (i.e. energy, kinetic energy, potential energy, etc.), Celestia is hands down the most powerful being in Equestria, likely the most powerful single sentient in the universe. Melt a building in minutes, if not seconds. Boil an entire ocean over the course of half an hour. Nothing even comes close to her raw, destructive, energetic potential. But, it does have its drawbacks. As shown in the story, when she channels her power, she becomes more like the celestial body that she takes after, aka the Sun. This means lots of things, and it means that unless she wants everything around her to melt to slag, she has to take lots, and I do mean lots, of precautions. Like, one spell to drastically reduce the radiation that she throws off, one spell to drastically reduce the convection from her body, and one spell to drastically reduce the conduction through her hooves and whatever else she’s touching. Except those spells are only effective against large amounts of heat, so smaller amounts of heat don’t get reduced as much, which means she ALSO needs to cast spells to prevent THAT small amount of heat for the three methods of heat transfer as well, to prevent THAT from melting things and cooking ponies. And cast a spell that lowers the amount of ultraviolet, and x-rays, and all the other amounts of radiation that she starts emitting to a level safe for ponies. And cast a spell that lowers her visual spectrum signature enough that looking at her doesn’t immediately blind the onlooker. You get the idea; that isn’t even half the spells she cast just to make things safe for those around her, and so that she won’t melt everything in sight. Her magic is also extremely simple, like using a sledgehammer for everything; she can’t do finicky spellwork with it. The force she can muster is unparalleled, but attempting to transfigure an apple into an orange? Forget about it. Conjure a shield? Sure. Conjure a shield that allows certain things through and not others? Not a chance. It means that every spell she casts at that level has loopholes in them. Incredibly powerful, invincible and impossible to overpower or block, but also easily bypassed by those who knew how to do so.
Luna, like her sister, is a juxtaposition; a personality of bluntness, who always speaks her mind and who always prefers the simplest solution, is a mare whose greatest power is stealth and subtlety. She is the mare of the night, of darkness, shadows, and dreams. This does mean that, when measured on a raw scale, she is weaker than her sister, but it would be wrong to say that she is significantly so- merely, different. She can command the shadows, turning them into weapons, or using them to hide from the sight of others. But, more significantly, Luna is the mare of dreams, and this, this is where her true power becomes clear. Psychological warfare through the use of nightmares is frightening, especially since she could cause blanket nightmares or give more personalized ones on a case by case basis; and an army without sleep is a very poor army. I can be circumvented those clever enough to somehow prevent dreams in the first place, or in other special cases, but for the most part, this is Luna’s real measure of power. It is not her only dream based power; as noted in the story, she can easily transition between the waking and dream worlds, and can cause others to do so as well, pulling them into dreams and simply leaving them there to become nothing more than a passing nightmare for foals to dream about. This, when combined with her prodigious shadow abilities, makes her nearly invincible when she channels her power- a sort of shadowy dream, where both physical attacks and most magical ones simply pass with no harm, because, after all, you can’t exactly stab a dream, or a shadow.
Now, one last note; their titles. Celestia is Unconquered, Luna is the Immortal. These aren’t necessarily true. Celestia has been defeated before, most notably by Discord, and Luna has been incapacitated and vulnerable before- plunder vines, Elements of Harmony. But.... these are the names given to them by ponies for a reason. When you see a beam of plasma wipe an entire army off the face of the planet in the span of a few seconds, you can pretty easily believe that nothing is ever going to stand against her; and when you see Luna trot through an entire army, taking spells and swords that all simply slip through her just to walk up to the enemy commander, it’s easy to believe that she can’t die. Neither of these titles is strictly true in all circumstances, but the ponies who gave these titles to them didn’t see them in all circumstances and believe that what they witnessed was true.
There you have it; my personal analysis. The sisters are foils to each other, in most ways. Impulsive versus calm. Emotional versus emotionless. Serious versus light-hearted. And this extends to their powers as well- light versus dark, power versus subtlety; the unstoppable force versus the immovable object. There are differences, of course, and the analogy isn’t perfect, but in my humble opinion, the sisters are perfect for each other, each balancing the strengths and weaknesses of the other.
Well, I don't really have any objections to this. I think the incongruence between their personalities and modes of manifestation make them more interesting. It's interesting how that combination of Elements dovetails so nicely into the broad spectrum of traits displayed in canon and extrapolate outward into the abilities you had them demonstrate. Nice bit of world building, even if it wasn't revealed through the mechanism of storytelling.
And even as I detest Hellenistic divinities, I appreciate the use of them as a sort of rough measure.
would you mind if i animated this? mind you it will be a while before i make anything because i need to get my programs back but i will make this an the other one, no voice tho unless i find someone or multiple people that i know. because i would love to see celestia melting a reaper and luna going and doing what she did
3807253
Go for it, do them both. I won't say no.
3807256 ok, you might have to wait a good long while as i don't believe in gmod and i will be making the first mlp 3D puppets that look real or much more animated than those gmod ones could ever be. plus i need to get the programs which i will be getting soon because im not going to wast my animation classes
I really couldn't have compared them any better myself. This is exactly how I see them.
Other than switching the Laughter and Generosity element that is how I see them.
I can understand why you would give Magic to Celestia offhand, her being the big sister and having the really big magic hammer, but I feel like it would be better for Luna, since Luna has such fine control with her abilities, and has more applications of her magic. Even if you look at magic as the show sometimes equates it directly to friendship, I still feel like Luna fits better, because while Celestia acts kind and friendly to everyone, Luna IS more of a friend to those she's close to. I feel like Celestia would be better with generosity with how she has governed Equestria to a 'Golden Age' of peace and prosperity, whereas Luna takes a more personal approach with her subjects, calming their nightmares and offering them advice on how to work out their issues. So Celestia would be Kindness, Laughter, and Generosity, while Luna would be Honesty, Loyalty, and Magic. Just a thought
Killing them sounds like destroying a high power artifact in any fantasy universe. So let's climb mount doom, shall we?
3810698 Its also the reason I killed of an entire race of my own creation the could control Kinetic and Potential Energy on an atomic level........
*sigh* Still trying to get publishers to print that story....
3811088 Wow an entire race of nigh unkillable demi-gods? Stupid kinetic atomic energy blowing shit up.
3811095 Yeah I had to blow up their planet to kill them off But Spoiler One Survived
3811101 Stupid survivors screwing up my genocides... did I say that out loud? On wards to wipe out the fae!
3811107
Are you sure you want to fight someone that can take a hold of every molecule in your body and force it to Absolute Zero?
3811112 ...I said fae... You know Faeries, leprechauns, goblins, etc. Fuckers are sadistic bastards.
3811204 Agreed... *Cocks SPAS-12* Lets go
3811205 hope that's iron cause lead wont do shit.
3811756 Incendiary Vibranium Shot with steel and other metals mixed in so as to be sure its useful on whatever I come up against
3811909 The mixed metals part is the most important, incendiary is just a bonus.
3811944 My thoughts exactly. Now should we continue this eslewere?
When you start to follow this line of thinking, you start to realize how effective at open combat Twilight would be. While she may not have the raw power of Celestia and Luna, she's got the jackpot on sheer Varity of spells and magical talent. Her feats include learning how to teleport after being teleported ONCE, Calming an Ursa Minor and carrying it a distance of several miles, without moving from where she stood (which also required her to somehow see where the Ursa was going), having a photographic memory for every spell she has learned, even if she had only seen it once. Freezing a large crowd of fighting ponies in place. Suddenly you realize that if Twilight were to take the field, there would be no soldier that could defeat her in open combat, if you can call the rounding up of petrified soldiers 'combat,' that is. The enemy would have to resort to snipers and assassins, and even then, that's no guarantee that they could get past her shields.
And then there's Cadence. There's a reason why Love and war go hoof in hoof. Cadence has been shown to be a bit of an Adrenaline junkie. I shouldn't even have to mention the tatzleworm, nor the suspiciously Cadence sized, Cadence colored rollerderby pony seen in one of the comics. OUR PRECIOUS PINK PRINCESS PUMMELES PONIES FOR A PASTIME, to quote Silverquill
[Appluase]
You got pretty close to the canon disposition of the Elements. Only got Laughter and Generosity "wrong".
Little late to this party, but I just read your two stories about them and really liked them. Liked this blog too.
What do you think of Twilight Sparkle, though? or have you thought of writing a story like this about her?
4034677
Sparkle, with this kind of reasoning applied to her, is a magical prodigy. She's not as powerful as Luna, or Celestia, but she can literally do anything within the limits of her power. Made even more pronounced by her intelligence, she can come up with spells for anything and everything.
You aren't the first to want me to write a story about Twilight- heck, some have even PM'd me with ideas. That said, I wasn't particularly planning on writing one about her. I tried (though kinda failed, if you read Luna closely) to keep it ambivalent as to whether or not she was even alive at this time- this is set several hundred years on from the events of the series- but even if they were alive (and I personally am of the opinion that Celestia and Luna are immortal only because their celestial bodies last millions of years- Cadence will die with her Love, Shining armor, and Twilight will die with her friends, the source of her Magic) I had no plans for creating a story about them. Doesn't mean they aren't there, merely that I am showcasing Celestia and Luna, not them.
But nothing's stopping someone else from writing a Twilight Sparkle, or Cadence, or even Chrysalis story.
4048230
But nothing stops Twilight from making new friends.Nothing stops Cadence from taking more husbands. See what I mean? If you made it so they died when their beloved died, and since they're like, embodiments of a nature, if Twilight died, no more friendship. If cadence dies, that's like saying only close ponies matter in love. What about all of the other friendships and marriages?
4058088
First, I preface all of this by saying that we are well beyond the realm of canon here; both our arguments are conjecture and headcannon because first, this is a crossover, and second, because no two people have the exact same headcannon.
So; in my mind, there's nothing saying that the embodiment of an attribute cannot die; after all, concepts like Love and Friendship existed well before Cadence and Twilight came along, nor in my mind would they just disappear if Cadence and Twilight were to die. The sun would continue to exist if Celestia was ended before her time.
In my mind, friendship and love are concepts that actually COULDN'T be immortal. They are ideals; Cadence will die when her Love (shining armor) dies; true, she could have more husbands, but it's not the same. Him dying, and her living on, would be like a piece of her heart was getting ripped out. Twilight can make more friends, yes, but they will never be able to replace the Elements; that is the friendship that grants her her power, that is the circle of friends that she will die with when they die like the mortal ponies they are.
This doesn't preclude re-incarnation; perhaps Cadence and Shining, and Twilight and her friends, re-appear every so often throughout history; Love and the Paramour, Magic with her Elements. But in my mind, these are very different than Celestia and Luna, who embody not emotions but very physical, long lasting elements; the Sun will burn for millions if not billions of years, the stars will do the same and the Moon is a hunk of rock that doesn't even have an atmosphere to wear away at it. Very different than embodying the concept of Love, or the concept of friendship.
Anyways, that's my personal take on the matter. I tried to leave things in these stories open ended; I focused on Celestia, and Luna, and Discord not because Twilight and Cadence and Chrysalis and anyone else you want to write about isn't there, but because those were the characters I wanted to write about. Feel free to write your own Cadence or Twilight story, there is no one stopping you guys, especially not me.
4061978
dat makes da sense
I love reading your thoughts on this subject. Unfortunately, I doubt any of it is canon, but it makes for some g-o-o-o-d head-canon.
I read this blog after posting my comment on the story, so it was cool to see your conjectures about Celestia and Luna. The reasonings you give for their various powers (and levels of such) are definitely viable, but I want to bring up a piece of my comment again:
With this in mind, I think this is where we disagree. I think Luna would be the more powerful of the two, more because of how far her control can reach. BUT, if we take proximity to the celestial bodies into account, if Celestia is linked directly with ONLY their sun, while Luna is linked with millions of other stars as well, it would make sense for Celestia to be able to draw out the sun's full power, while Luna only a small portion of it due to how wide her reach is in the starscape. This is my conjecture, so I'm interested to hear what you think.
Oh, also...
The fact that Celestia's and Luna's AIs were named Epona and Ganon were amazing.
4061978
This.
Some peeps read way too literally, or completely ignore implied common logic, so here is a decoder for mortal elements.
When an author says Twilight dies with her friends, it does not mean literally the entire group dies together at the same instant. It means they expire in the same generation. After they hit retirement age, their lights will go out, one day one, another day one, until they are all passed on. The last of these old friends will have seen her companions die, and may follow them into death anywhere from minutes to years after.
The Elements of Harmony will have chosen a new, living circle of friends to lend their powers to in a future generation, whenever Equestria is in need of such heroes, and when the current circle of friends are no longer fit to carry that power.
Celestia's hallways get filled with window murals of these circles of friends rising to the occasion to spread friendship and harmony to Equestria when trouble comes.
She will, of course, always remember Twilight Sparkle and her friends.
4451921
In this story it's made clear that the stars she controls are smaller ones. About 3 meters in all dimensions from what I remember. In the show, Celestia was able to move the Sun, Moon and the stars for one thousand years without struggling ever. Why is that impressive? ( apart from Celestia doing that non-stop every day) it's because when Celestia and luna swapped powers, Celestia moved the Moon much slower than she moves the Sun normally, which means Celestia was moving everything in the sky Faster than Luna could for a millennium.
Oh, I just wish I could write like that
Even if this take is seven years old, and characterization surely marched on since then, I sincerely commend you on the effort. There is a lot to be learned from and to be inspired with