Critisim · 2:34pm Feb 26th, 2016
Recently a reader has decided to grace the comments of The Great Slave King with gems such as these:
I am half a second from Downvoting this story. I hope there is a reason for me not to.
No improvement yet, I'll give it two more chapters. Thus far we have a bunch of Gods acting like assholes and all more than happy to murder our main character in cold blood, including Luna and Celestia.
A FEW flaws? O.k. taking 10 minutes to calm down after my last rage session... speaking of which, it takes either a good deal of skill to pull off (which would be why I am still reading) or the author is so bad that it makes me sick. You are the former.
Nearly ever chapter was laced with profanity. Normally I dislike, censoring comments but felt tempted to do so. I sent the reader a PM asking them to stop posting, if all they were going to do was fill up the comments foul language.
They responded to me thusly:
expressing your distaste with what you've read.
Is that not clear that's exactly what I'm doing?
Then requested I answer their questions. Previously the first few comments made me laugh, but as they continued I noticed a trend, it was all Celestia this, Luna that, very little about any of the other plot points were mentioned. So I decided to answer his questions and offer my own rebuttal to his critique.
Here is my response to the reader:
My main objection is that with few exceptions your comments are vulgar and added little value to future readers. If you had presented your distaste with less vitriol or only for a few chapters I might not care, but I prefer the comments in my story to be clean and in good taste. Like I said if what I've written isn't to your taste, leave a thumb down and move onto the next story. I'm sure they'll be as amused as I was.
Alright I'll explain my reasoning regarding how I wrote my characters to you. Hopefully I can address all the concerns you previously posted regarding the story as well.
With few exceptions each deity controls a domain with total impunity. For an age, the gods warred with each other for dominance and control. In the end they (or rather a few, namely Celestia and Triton), decided that this had to stop. So they called the first moot and established the Law everyone had to follow. In the end Celestia and Triton were elected to be the head of the Pantheon.
So where you object to Celestia's behavior as weak or two faced, she has to balance what she considered to be benevolent with being hard, lest the entire system fall to pieces.
When King slew Darkpaw and inherited his domain the gods were faced with a problem. What to do with him. Celestia was worried that someone young and inexperienced could easily be corrupted by the other less benevolent members of the pantheon, and could easily shatter the uneasy alliance the gods had between themselves. So while wishing to seal him in stone may seem cruel, she hoped to protect King from the others until she could convince him to join her on the side of harmony and justice versus chaos and cruelty. Of course you read what happened, and what Celestia feared would occur, did. The Slave King's action threatened to destroy the peace and ignite war between the gods.
Despite having to oppose the Slave King, Celestia feels compassion towards him and his situation. She voted against his banishment and freed him from it from her domain. But regardless of her compassion towards King, she has a greater responsibility towards her own subjects, and all the mortals in the other domains. Thus she felt petrifaction was a good temporary solution. Earlier, you complained that Celestia is out of character. From the show I felt the she has always been a master manipulator and real politik, and so wrote her that way, benevolent to her mortal subjects and manipulative to her fellow gods.
You feel Luna is two faced, but she has only ever expressed her distaste for the Slave King. She sees a cruel petty tyrant who cares little for the mortals he crushes beneath his boot. Like her sister she foresaw the ruin he would likely unleash on the world. Luna appreciates honor and chivalry (thus her crush on Sir Stouthorn), and feels the Slave King has neither. As far as she's concerned the Slave King is a menace whose influence must either be contained (i.e. his banished) or imprisoned for the good of everyone else.
When I imagined the gods of Equestria, I went with a Greek/Norse direction. You can read about them more in depth HERE.
Ouroboros does encapsulate greed, but only so far as most dragons do. The phoenix, Suzaku is supposed to represent all aspects of love (including lust). The griffin Zephyr, freedom and passion. The main reasons for her hate and lust towards the Slave King has to do with the slaying of Darkpaw and him inheriting the domain of Earth. As polar opposites, she's drawn towards him and feels conflicted about it. It's explained in the chapter A Trifecta of Love, Hatred, and Betrayal. She discusses it with Ouroboros and he remarks that he's glad that his opposite isn't female in response.
Now when you say there's no reason for hostility against the Slave King there actually is. Zephyr wants vengeance, Ouroboros desires the wealth of the Earth for himself, and Suzaku was bribed to play her part. Triton demands that the Slave King yield to the Law and all its statutes. Celestia wishes to protect the peace and the mortals in her domain and outside it. Luna shares her sister's sentiments, but believes that peace with the Slave King is foolhardy, but is willing to defer to her sister's judgement on the matter.
Both Celestia and Luna know that the Slave King had ulterior motives in sending his delegation to Londwhinium. In chapter At the Banquet..., Celestia graciously accepted the gifts as Luna scolded the Arch Duke and thus the Slave King as a way of reminding him that peace between their domains couldn't be accepted until the Pantheon's grievances had been addressed. Of course the Slave King was more interested in securing Shanks to complete his quest for vengeance.
Your first comment complained that King was a coward, I felt cowardice might be a realistic reaction to his situation. Not everyone has the fortitude to be brave, and so often in HIE stories you see the human is a great fighter and martial artist. Additionally, I felt it would be a good contrast to his eventual transformation into the Slave King.
You complain the gods presented are wicked capricious bastards, that's the Greek/Norse pantheon for you. They were especially that way with each other. While some gods are benevolent to mortals, others were colossal jerks. Even gods usually depicted as benevolent by most like Athena, simply consider Medusa and Arachnae's fates at her hand.
You commented that who cares what happened to those living within the Diamond Vale, but the Slave King slew young and old, strong and weak, master and slave alike. He gave no thought to guilt or innocence, and cut them down like grass, with nary a second thought.
You claim Celestia isn't benevolent, but beyond Jorgumandr and to some extent Discord, Celestia was the only one who offered him any mercy. Turning King into a statue would allow her to protect him from the rest of the Pantheon, and the mortals from him.
The Slave King having slaves is kind of his thing (beyond being a play on his name). After destroying the Diamond Vale (the only city of any real note in the Domain of Earth), the only real industry he possessed left was all powered by slavery. Its easy to say I wouldn't propagate the system that held you in bondage, but the reality is he inherited the system without any real alternative to him available. Additionally unless he was going to murder the majority of his subjects, most masters would be reluctant to give up their property.
I believe I've already explained why Celestia was planning to imprisoned the Slave King, additionally as head of the Pantheon it is her prime responsibility to fulfill the will of the Pantheon, and guess what most of them wanted.
You say you lost all sympathy for those who perished within the Diamond Vale, but as previously stated many innocents died as well.
You complained that Celestia was being racist (or rather speciest) due to the charges levied against Clover and friends (namely against Showboat), after reading the previous chapter and the implied brawl between them, Blueblood's group, and the princesses and guards, who do you think levied the charges on them? Maybe disgruntled Londwhinium nobility perhaps? You also need to consider this is all written around the same time as the hearths-warming eve tale, and simply being charged doesn't mean you will be found guilty. If you recall you'll see that even after the jailbreak, Clover and friends were all pardoned and even made into her ambassadors. Hardly the actions of the uncaring, capricious tyrants you've supposed I've written them as.
Once more you complain about Celestia and Luna's characterization, I believe I've answered regarding my writing her as I did. As for Luna she was offering Clover something to sweeten the deal if need be (breaking his banishment from her domain, like Celestia had done earlier in the story). The King plainly stated his intentions to avenge himself against the Diamond Dogs when asked, saving the many versus the one is what any good leader would do, no matter how much the one feel justified in getting their revenge. You feel the Slave King should hate Celestia, when she was one of the few who voted against his banishment and subsequently freed him from her banishment. As far as he's concerned, she's shown him that he can at least work with her, or at the least not have to go to war against her like Triton or Ouroboros.
You said my story is deeply flawed, versus my admission of being slightly flawed. The only flaws I'll admit are grammar, chapters 2-4 (mainly being rather slow and boring, and because I hadn't quite decided the direction I wished to go yet), an early plot point that I hadn't fully utilized in the story, and the Stouthorn's duel towards the end of the book. Really I think all your hate for the characters derives from me showing Celestia and Luna differently from your head canon.
You seem to feel that petrification is somehow lethal, when as discord shows its not. Additionally, its implied he's left his own stony prison multiple times. Petrification for a god is no worse then going to prison, and by touching the waters within the Well of Eternity he became the same as them. You complain that they should have made friends, but when pressed for what he would do, the Slave King straight up says he's planning on getting revenge. Seeing the condition he was in its reasonable to believe he was going to kill as many as he could. Celestia couldn't allow one of their number to do so. But you cry out she allowed slavery, and I say no she didn't. You say what, and I reply yes. Celestia has no power over the other domains, and she can only enforce the will and laws of the Pantheon, as you see when she grants the Slave King the Domain of Earth and his subsequent banishment.
Reading the story you can see that for the most of it the Slave King was mad. A sane man might see to his affairs, but the Slave King pursues the last pup of an extinct clan, he needlessly risks war, and provokes his neighbors. He refuses to fulfill his duty to his domain and in the process harms himself. The Slave King, until the end was never a rational actor, and being petrified was the only sensible course until he could be properly handled by Celestia and the others.
Yes slavery was endemic in the South, and even some nobility enriched themselves by the trade, but they wouldn't take action unless they could prove it. Even though they could put an end to and crush the slave trade, they won't because they refuse to be tyrants and warmongers, because that's what it would take to put it to an end. So regardless of your opinion, I feel that I've written Celestia as benevolent, and Luna as kind, though both are being constrained by the law of their respective domains and that of the Pantheon.
You mention my use of Gentlereader reminding you of Mister Manners, and I'm not sure if it mean hardheartedly or in derision and rancor as you seem wont to do in the rest of your comments. However, I'll choose to think you are saying such in levity.
Your anger towards the Arch Duke is understandable, the Slave King decreed that he was to be denied death until all his debts had been paid in full. It's how he was able to withstand Nightmare's tender ministrations for those past two years.
You complain that Triton hadn't the foresight to mentor the Slave King. Like the others, he felt that the newly minted deity needed to be imprisoned to preserve the peace. Only after seeing what he was up to with the construction of the Vendetta did he begin to respect him as anything more than an uncivilized brute.
As for your last comment, that really angered me and prompted me to send you a PM. That chapter was a thrill ride and all you offer is a derisive snide comment of absolutely no value to anyone. Luna protested that she wasn't omniscient, and that any concern had for the enslaved wasn't truly genuine. If it were, he would've freed them all instead of waiting to offer a paltry few as a token of good will.
Addressing your final point, you complain that most of the mortal characters Clover and his friends encounter are evil. I say they are colorful, and given the time frame of the story (nearly 1500 years before Friendship is Magic begins), I feel completely realistic. Up until recently the ponies could scarcely get along with the other tribes, let alone the other various races from the other disparate domains. They are very clannish and mainly care for themselves, early man wasn't much different until relatively recently either.
As for Luna, neither she nor Celestia receives the comeuppance you feel she deserves. If you decide to finish the story you'll find out who does.
Reader, I believe I have addressed all your complaints and critiques thus far.
Addressing your concerns, I went into composing my response with an open mind, however on considering what you've said, I only feel annoyed. I offered adventure, political intrigue, and winding plots, all in a relatively short story. Barring the faults I admitted earlier, I feel this is a great story that stands well on its own, and as the intro to the Slave King series. However even one of the best chapters (at least in my opinion) nothing offered appealed to you. All you found the desire to post isn't worth repeating here.
Now I know on fimfiction some consider themselves to be critics or performing a service by offering their commentary on every chapter they read. Some to do it to help the author improve, others do it for a bit of trollish fun, and the last do it to tear down others. Reader I've read some of your stories and read how you interact with your readers. Imagine to my surprise your genteel nature towards those you wish to enjoy what you've written, when I compared it to the invective you've chosen to grace the comments of my story with. I can only suppose by how you've chosen to represent yourself that you are the of the last sort.
You complain about my version of Celestia and Luna and claim to love their characterization from the show. When compared with how you presented them in your own story, I find that difficult to believe, my only retort to you is this. Physician heal thyself, remove the beam from thine own eye, before removing the speck from thy brother's eye. Now I'm not one given to anger, and I've taken criticisms from many others on this story and others, but I'll proudly hold up my work against yours.
Seeing as how you acted thus far, I'm sure I've wasted my time in replying to you. You'll probably excuse your previous commentary as legitimate critique and hand-wave my arguments away. As for your critiquing, you're no Alondro. See his page to see how it's done both SERIOUSserious and SILLYsilly.
Finally to summarize, you left your down vote, you got my rebuttal to your objections, so hit the bricks and work on finishing your own stories
I'd like to think I can take criticism, but this reader certainly rubbed the wrong way.
Thanks for listening to me vent, gentlereader.
Until next time!
P.S. I'm still trying to do a February release for the next chapter
P.P.S Please don't down vote the other parties work. I didn't share this hoping to hurt them, but as a cathartic release for myself. I also wanted to share the witty zingers I gave him as well.
You get an up vote. You really defending your story in a masterful manner.
Yep, but by posting this reply here, your effort was paid off. Thanks to this blog post i could learn more about depths of your stories. Thank you for posting this. And i applaud loudly the form, which you used to rebuke these nasty comments. Very good work. Professionalism and writer's skills just ooze from your reply. Keep up the good work, thank you for your stories and i hope you will focus only on good response to your work and ignore others. Mean readers are just not worth your time. Bath in praise and shower us with more chapters of Slave King.
A reply worthy of recognition:
have an upvote!
The only thing i can say is, wtf. Granted i am usually a harsh critic in my own right, but that is generally on a series as a whole. I can't see why someone would be overly critical to the first in what is now, a very long and in depth series. That would be the same as a child saying the first Eragon book was horrible because it left so much unanswered. I am glad to see that TalonMach5 kept his composure in the reply and gave a thorough answer. Such a shame to see a person purposely put down another writer.
Will the chapter come out today or tomorrow?
3783134 It's getting close to being done, but not quite finished yet. You'll probably have to wait until March I'm sorry to say.
But I think you'll really like it. This chapter is shaping up to be really powerful.
Well, as this was on the first novel in your series, I can certainly understand any critique on poor writing, as admittedly it wasnt the best at the beginning. However, thats not to say any problems your writing previously had weren't hammered into your style to fit beautifully in with the world you created. This is why in the end, your story was put into my list of best fics, due to your ability to improve over time and tell a story with a unique style.
On the topic of their foul language, I couldn't agree more that it wasn't necessary, and actually kind of rude. On the otherside of things, in this modern day and age, many are taught that expression of self should never be limited even when uncouth. Thus people express themselves through such vulgarities as a means to get their point across in a way that often isn't meant to be as harmful as it really is.
In summation, I agree with you that this "critique" was unnecessarily vulgar and hateful. Though I can also see through their point of view, as admittedly character motives may have been expressed in a confusing way near the beginning. Seeing as there was this much confusion, I doubt they got far as much was revealed later into the story.
P.S. I know I'm a year or so late to the party, but I saw this and decided to add my two cents. I truly do love your Slave King series, and had no ill will behind any criticism I had in this. Your writing has improved quite alot. Even though I'm only half way through The Marriage of the Slave King I see a definite clear difference between it and your earlier writing. I have utterly fallen in love with this series and hope it continues on until properly being finished.
~With regards, Explosions.
P.P.S. You have no idea the amount of effort I put into making this as cordial sounding as possible. Or maybe you do, seeing as how it seems you speak like this on average.