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Proper Noun


Banned by request. See y'all around.

More Blog Posts138

Feb
24th
2016

>tfw internet atheism is now about MRAs vs SJWs · 1:17am Feb 24th, 2016

I'm not exactly quiet about being an atheist. In fact, I can be quite outspoken, though it isn't really a common subject on my personal blog. However, the longer I linger around atheist communities on the internet, the more I see them caught up in the bullshit outrage war between "MRAs" and "SJWs", with atheist circles increasingly polarising towards the "MRA" side.

Now, from where I sit, both imaginary sides are atrocious, as they spawn all sorts of tribalist "if you're not with us, you're with them against us" horseshit, and they tend to spew all kinds of racist, sexist, racial superiority, gender superiority, and anti-LGBT bullshit. And those are the new arms and armour of internet atheism.

If you object to this new trend, you are branded as an "SJW" or "irrational" or "oversensitive" or so on, and roundly criticised until you just give up and find somewhere else to post.

In short, I'm complaining that internet atheism has become a reactionary cult that is far more about arguing with Tumblr than it is about being irreligious. I do not need a reactionary cult, especially when that cult tends to sometimes advocate against my civil rights as a gay woman and usually advocates against the civil rights of my transgender friends. I remain irreligious in (admittedly small) part to get away from this excluding, hateful bullshit.

So fuck off, internet atheism, and fix your shit. I'm doing my own thing.

Comments ( 30 )

Group dynamics seem to tend towards chaos the more communication happens within a group. Sort of a homogenization of neuroses, forming groups within groups. And then it splits... and then it goes fractal. It's a loop.

Used to be, these groups could just migrate away from each other, but now that's pretty impossible with the internet keeping everyone connected.

At least, that's my theory. It's a little fascinating to watch from the outside. Not so much when you don't have distance from the group. Plus, it's an election year in the US, so the most vocal are getting more vocal.

Interesting to watch... :coolphoto:

Sorry to leave a comment like this, but I've been sheltered for the better part of my life when it comes to GRSM issues, and this blog post has left me curious.

How on Earth has a movement that was meant to protect the rights of people to practice their own religion (or lack thereof, in this case) led to an argument between two toxic groups that does nothing but hate on Tumblr and each other?

#ShotsFired

The main problem is that people tend to blindly follow what a person said on YouTube or tumblr, rather than doing their own research and forming their own opinion. It's not a problem with just MRA's and atheist communities, but even with certain LGBT and feminist circles (I think I told you once about some of the unhealthy trans groups I was in before.) Though, the former you mentioned is getting pretty fucking bad, I just avoid participating in these types of communities because it's not good for my mental health.

Too much negativity. :applejackunsure:

Um... what's an "MRA"? I've never heard that one before.

3773744
Men's right activists.
They are pretty infamous for attracting a few misogynistic men as members, pickup artists in particular.
It was a movement meant to protect the rights of men(in case you didn't know, men are discriminated against in modern society too.), but it's grown pretty toxic.

3773732

Well, a lot of gay groups have turned against bi and trans people in an effort to blend in with the majority that discriminates against them. The aim there is to make themselves more "acceptable."

Maybe there's a sad, similar mechanic going on here.

3773724

I don't know what to say to that. These groups have been vocal for a few years, and I've recently started actively avoiding atheist communities online. I kept hearing about them though, so I decided to say something.

3773753
I did read up on an article that mentioned bisexual erasure. It was pretty damn infuriating, I'll give you that.

As for the second sentence, I'll have to read up more on group social dynamics. It's sad when I hear other people talk in fancy sentences about literature and GRSM issues and most of what they say fly over my head.

Dear God, I'm listening to people talk about internet movements and the psychology behind them when I have an written exam in five hours. What the fuck.

EDIT: If Proper Noun doesn't object, I could post a few comments people have made about their brushes with toxic LGBT groups, even though it's not that relevant to the original blog post about MRA and SJW. It'll take serveral hours.

3773753
The special irony here is that the Human Race, a sentient race that has learned to use tools and abstract forms of communication, has produced a shitload of people that are incapable of independent thought.

3773767

If Proper Noun doesn't object, I could post a few comments people have made about their brushes with toxic LGBT groups, even though it's not that relevant to the original blog post about MRA and SJW. It'll take serveral hours.

Normally I would say yes, but... I don't need to be more depressed by the people who are supposed to be on my "side" right now, so I'm just going to affirm that I know what you're talking about and ask you to limit your sharing to your own experiences today.

Diarchs, I could really use a wall of diabetes-level kitten and pony pictures...
To the googlemobile!

p.s. Maybe this is how the Log Cabin Republicans feel.

3773753

Maybe I misread what was above. Oops, in that case. I think I was thinking about what drove me away from the Internet Atheism... when it became less about the movement and more about power and dominance struggles within the group. Which, it sounds like, haven't stopped.

I... I am so confused by this internet atheist battle. Fill in my gay mind about what I missed.

I, myself, am also a very firm atheist, and I was once a moderately devout chrisitan. I went through my militant atheist stage for a bit, but I'm much more mellow about it, by and large. I don't force it on people, because I really tend not to hang around conservative Christians in the first place! Usually don't find many who are bronies, gamers, skeptics, etc. And yet, I am confused by this hatred, and that you speak of atheists who are anti-gay rights and woman rights. This completely blasts my mind.

Of course I hate ISIS, the KKK, and hardcore evangelical, creationist Christians who indoctrinate their children. The same goes for Muslims who force church and state to be one, and seek to crush democracy, but the 'average' religious person? Why would I hate them?

I'm a fond believer of Penn Jullete and what he says about his atheism. There is plenty of religious hatred in the world, and if we believe there is only one life, why spread that hatred around to ruin the lives of those around us?

I disagree.

Internet atheism is about confronting bullshit. Once they saw that SJWs were promote censorship, hypocrisy, hypersensitivity, racism, sexism, and so on, they decided to stand against it. That does not mean they are anti-social justice, however. This is a misconception, one I would like to clear up.

SJWs are looks at as extremists. A small, but very vocal, very influential minority that has effectively ruined the term 'progressive' for a lot of people, including myself. I'm an egalitarian, I support equality for everyone, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference, what have you. What I do not support, however, is the regressive, hypocritical, uninformed, hateful, and cultish side of progressivism. It's these same people who cringe at the very idea that men might face sexism in western society, or that it's somehow impossible to be racist towards a white person, or that you can't be cisphobic, or some other incredibly ignorant idea.

But the worst part about it, is that they censor any opposing opinions and use obvious internet trolls as an excuse to do it. I've seen people lose their jobs, friends, and even family members over the very idea that they might hold an opposing view on something they deem to be "problematic". Happened to me recently, actually. Lost one of my best friends of four years because he didn't like that I was critical of third-wave feminism. Completely dropped all contact with me and a few of his other friends. It was made perfectly clear to me that what I used to consider the crazy minority of the social justice movement was far, far more influential than I had previously thought.

Games, movies, books, music, artists, comedians, journalists, teachers, and students have all been and continue to be the victims of SJW censorship. Anything that does not align with the thoughts and ideas of these extremists are falsely labeled sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic. Why? Because SJWs force those who have differing opinions to appear to side with actual racists, homophobes, and sexists, because it would be hypocritical to only support free speech in certain cases. And that's the thing, free speech is, and should be limitless. But the sad truth, is that with the complete and total freedom to say and think whatever you want, you're going to get ignorant assholes who ruin it for the bunch. The bigger issue, though, is that what is and isn't ignorant bullshit has been split into this black and white line with literally no grey area.

Think women might not be all that oppressed in western society? MISOGYNIST. Think that the black lives matter movement might be taking things a bit too far? RACIST. Think that the fat acceptance movement is endorsing obesity and discouraging people from getting healthier? SIZEIST. Think that a gay couple committing indecent exposure and committing a lewd act in public is just as bad as when a straight couple does it? HOMOPHOBE. These are only a few things society might label you as for having these, or even just barely similar, opinions.

Atheism, especially internet atheism, has always fought the bullshit in society. This time is no different.

But to those of you who want to use freedom as a means to attack [x group of people], know that I am not your ally.

Sorry for the rant. This has been an issue I've been involved in for over a year now, and have become very passionate about it. I respect your opinion on the matter just as much as I respect the opinion of anyone else who may disagree with me.

3774409

Did you read anything past the title of this blog? The whole point is that I don't care for all that bullshit anymore. If internet atheism is about getting in a slap-fight with anyone who ever dares to identify as "feminist" (regardless how they use the word), or who calls someone out on being a jerk (you wouldn't believe how many "MRA" "atheists" I've witnessed saying, or have said to me, that they have a right to be rude and the recipient of that rudeness has no right to be offended because blah hypersensitivity blah), or who says it's okay for people to be gay/bisexual/transgender, or anything of the sort, and it recently has become such, then a) internet atheism is not atheism, it's a reactionary, e-violent, tribalist drama cult; and b) fuck that shit, I'm not going to be a part of it.

And no, atheism isn't about reacting to whatever bullshit some stupid person said, and thereby giving them a platform to speak on and an enemy to speak passionately against (thus creating an endless cycle of retaliatory drama, just like the Middle East--and, thanks to SWATting, there's even guns and property damage involved!). Atheism is about I do not believe in theistic worldviews, with a double side-order of Why the blue fuck are we considered less trustworthy than serial rapists and killers? Why is it okay to refuse to officiate our marriages?

I can be a confrontational person, yes. But that's not what being an atheist is about. That's just an unpleasant part of my personality. You've narrowly defined "internet atheist" as "belligerent, hostile, drama-whoring skeptic" and I'm trying not to be that, thank you very much.

Both sides in this insane feud have devolved into an excuse to fight with and bully people based almost entirely on which side they appear to be on. This destructive bullshit needs to end, from both sides, and no, not "when we win/the other side stops." Now.

p.s. Sorry if I missed any joke you may have embedded in your post, I've already missed three or so today.

3774409
3774438

I sincerely hope Soaring Skies was joking, but if it turns into an argument, I won't hesitate to watch the whole thing go down.

drsharma.ca/wp-content/uploads/popcorn.jpg

Polarization, extremism and stupidity? That's the Internet for ya!

But seriously, fuck the whole MRA vs. SJW thing in all it's manifestations.

Atheism means one thing and one thing only, disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

So I see no reason for men's rights activist to get involved. Something I have noticed from some SJW/feminist anyone who doesn't go along with their narrative are branded MRAs. If you think the debunked 1 in 4 women on campus will be raped statistics is as I said debunked and false then they brand you a MRA, if you think we need battered men shelters for male victims of abuse then you're an evil MRA.

If these are feminist sjw's then I don't want to be one.

3774409

Internet atheism is about confronting bullshit.

No, sweetie, it's really not. It's about disbelieving claims of the existence of any god or gods. That's really all there is to it.

3774702

There shouldn't be any difference between atheism and internet atheism, for that matter.

So you just now found out about Atheism+?

Yea, it's the same sort of bullcrap that caused the Occupy movements to fail.

I was an atheist before it was associated with anything else than what an atheist actually is. Those were good times.

And yeah, tribal mentality seems to be a thing nowadays. Like, as if there was one stereotype of a person with a fixed set of views and if someone doesn't subscribe to all of them, they're immediately rejected. A moderate example: my particularly dim-witted friend once asked me why I'm not a vegetarian. According to her, if I support gay rights, women rights and all that stuff, I should also automatically be a vegetarian. Yeah, because meat is only for homophobes, apparently :facehoof:

3774826

I've known about atheism+ for a while. I don't hang around that part of the internet.

3775130

Yeah, because meat is only for homophobes, apparently

The taste of self-loathing is delicious. :derpytongue2:

3774438

Did you read anything past the title of this blog? The whole point is that I don't care for all that bullshit anymore.

I did. I was trying to explain that the recent "bullshit outrage war" between MRAs and SJWs isn't just bullshit. It's not just some imaginary thing that doesn't have a purpose.

If internet atheism is about getting in a slap-fight with anyone who ever dares to identify as "feminist" (regardless how they use the word)

That's a really one-sided way to look at it, I mean, if you actually listened to their arguments, you might find that there is a reason that they engaged in this so-called "slap-fight". I can't speak for everyone, but those who I associate with in the internet atheist community don't just pick fights with people for being feminists. They voice their disagreement when confronted with regressive views, which happens to be popular in feminist circles.

or who calls someone out on being a jerk (you wouldn't believe how many "MRA" "atheists" I've witnessed saying, or have said to me, that they have a right to be rude and the recipient of that rudeness has no right to be offended because blah hypersensitivity blah

Who defines what is and isn't rude, exactly? What's rude to me might be totally peachy with you. Offense is subjective, after all. However you DO have the right to be offended, and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. But what you can't do, is restrict that person from voicing their views to others just because you find it offensive—but you can certainly choose not to listen to them, that's your right. And when it comes down to people accusing others of being hypersensitive, like I said in my previous post, is that you claiming an opinion was offensive, PURELY based on the fact that it's an opposing or different one, means you're hypersensitive and need to learn how to properly deal with criticism.

or who says it's okay for people to be gay/bisexual/transgender, or anything of the sort, and it recently has become such, then a) internet atheism is not atheism, it's a reactionary, e-violent, tribalist drama cult; and b) fuck that shit, I'm not going to be a part of it

Well I don't know where you've been for the past few years, because internet atheism, as a community, has always stood up against the things they disagreed with. From science, to politics, to issues regarding race or sexuality, the community has always spoken out against these things. But because they were issues you agreed with, you either didn't seem to care or just didn't notice them discussing or debating these things.

giving them a platform to speak on and an enemy to speak passionately against (thus creating an endless cycle of retaliatory drama, just like the Middle East--and, thanks to SWATting, there's even guns and property damage involved!). Atheism is about I do not believe in theistic worldviews, with a double side-order of Why the blue fuck are we considered less trustworthy than serial rapists and killers? Why is it okay to refuse to officiate our marriages?

Perhaps this is my own fault for poor wording. Atheism is about not believing in theistic worldviews, I totally agree with that. What I was saying, was that the internet atheism community specifically has always been very vocal when it came to things they disagreed with. And that's not a bad thing, by any means. It's a misconception that by simply ignoring something, that it will go away. You can't prove that people might not have found and started listening to them, regardless of whether or not another person or group was arguing against them.

I can be a confrontational person, yes. But that's not what being an atheist is about

You're right, that's not what being an atheist is about. That's apart if what being human is about, and wanting to voice your opinion when you're confronted with something you disagree with. Disagreeing with someone does not mean that it's "drama", or at least not the way you're using the word.

That's just an unpleasant part of my personality

I don't find it unpleasant at all. I love having my beliefs challenged. I get to learn new things. And people like yourself help me achieve that.

You've narrowly defined "internet atheist" as "belligerent, hostile, drama-whoring skeptic" and I'm trying not to be that, thank you very much.

You've narrowly defined what an argument is. Just because you voice your disagreement with someone, doesn't mean you're hostile or trying to start drama.

Both sides in this insane feud have devolved into an excuse to fight with and bully people based almost entirely on which side they appear to be on. This destructive bullshit needs to end, from both sides, and no, not "when we win/the other side stops." Now.

Both sides? I understand that you might have run into some trolls are assholes who label themselves as anti-SJW, but what you need to understand, is that these same people would keep being trolls or assholes regardless of whether or not they had a movement to use as an excuse to act the way they do. The majority of internet atheists have actual reasons for disagreeing, and wanting to take a stand against SJWs, and I believe that, given the things that the regressive left believe, is the right thing to do.


3774464
I hope you enjoy the discussion, and that you learn something new out of all this. And on a site for fanfction about My Little Pony, no less.


3774702
That might be what atheism is about, but internet atheism as a community certainly isn't. Or at least that's what I've gathered from my own observation.

3775904

no
to basically everything you said

I'm not going to bother answering everything point by point because I don't want to be involved in a lot of it. I'll only answer two things directly.

That might be what atheism is about, but internet atheism as a community certainly isn't.

Yes. And thus, screw being part of the internet atheist community, as I've already said twice.

Both sides? I understand that you might have run into some trolls are assholes who label themselves as anti-SJW, but what you need to understand, is that these same people would keep being trolls or assholes regardless of whether or not they had a movement to use as an excuse to act the way they do. The majority of internet atheists have actual reasons for disagreeing, and wanting to take a stand against SJWs, and I believe that, given the things that the regressive left believe, is the right thing to do.

It's just weird that you're willing to give your own "side" credit for not being all-bad but not the other "side."

Then again, tribalism. I'm not sure what I expected.

3776171

no
to basically everything you said

Well that's unfortunate. Care to explain wh-

I'll only answer two things directly.

Oh. Well... Okay. I guess.

Yes. And thus, screw being part of the internet atheist community, as I've already said twice.

Sorry I couldn't help you see things from an alternate perspective.

It's just weird that you're willing to give your own "side" credit for not being all-bad but not the other "side."

I believe I pointed out several times that my "side" isn't perfect. In fact, I said you probably ran into some trolls/assholes from my "side". Also, you're confused. SJW is a label used to describe a social justice extremist, not just any supporter of social justice so naturally I'm going to dislike they're group, just as I would any other extremist group, because black and white thinking is dangerous, as you said. So to clarify, you're not an SJW Just because you're in support of social justice movents or ideas.

Anyway, sorry to bother you with my opinion on the matter.

Can't we all just realize that religion is silly, and end at it with that? That's pretty much the foundation of atheism. Skepticism, existentialism, secularism, and humanist tend to - and seem logical - to follow afterwards. Other than that, don't be a dick! Not being a dick tends to be a decent philosophy in life.

This is why I decided, a few years ago, that I wanted nothing more to do with the broader atheism/freethought movement. It was clear after a certain point that a huge chunk of people in that world were heading in this direction, and decided that it was best not to associate with them at all.

3775635
Oh yeah. I wonder what they say about bacon?

Y'all motherfuckers need Jesus.

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