Season 5 Finale and Bingo Wrap-Up · 10:23am Dec 2nd, 2015
So, another season has come and gone. Season 5 went out with a very fanficcy bang, as we see an episode that could well have been a piece of fanfiction.
Unfortunately, it wasn’t a particularly good one in some respects, while it was fairly decent in others.
The overall idea behind this episode was actually a fairly good one – Starlight Glimmer going back in time to make it so that Twilight Sparkle and her friends never got together.
There was just one major problem here – she went back in time for the wrong reason.
See, the really great idea here would have been for Starlight Glimmer to go back in time to ruin Twilight Sparkle’s friendships so that Twilight Sparkle would never come and mess up her egalitarian commune.
This could have set up for an excellent moment of “Oh, God, what have I done?” from Starlight Glimmer as she goes back to the future and keeps not getting her egalitarian utopia, instead ending up with increasingly nightmarish worlds (though, to be fair, the Nightmare Moon world was debatably the least awful one – indeed, it was the most salvageable of the ones we saw). In fact, it would have been even stronger, because it would have made her realize that revenge was a sucker’s game – hurting Twilight Sparkle hurt her as much or even more than it hurt the target of her ire.
That would have been much more interesting as a motive than pure revenge, and also would have made her turnaround at the end much more meaningful.
The second major flaw in the episode was Starlight Glimmer’s shoddy, lame backstory – rather than being ideologically driven, she was a woobie who just wanted to be loved. I think that it would have been better if she really had just been ideologically driven regarding her utopia, and that the realization that Twilight’s friendships with very different ponies was the only reason that Starlight Glimmer’s petty little dystopia could ever have existed in the first place would have, I think, been a great way of breaking her. It also could have sent a message about political extremism, and how sometimes, you’re just wrong.
The third flaw was that the alternate realities were largely pointless. In particular, we spent far too much time delving into the first reality pointlessly. Had we spent the episode with Twilight saving this new world, then going back in time with help and setting right what once went wrong, that would have made sense. As-is, though, the three worlds that a lot of focus was spent on – especially the first one – felt like kind of a waste of time, as they didn’t really do a whole lot of interesting things with them. They’re neat ideas, but they didn’t really fit into the story as-is – the flashing through various realities was a great gag, and I loved it, but the long time we spent in the other realities was kind of a waste.
This lead into the final flaw – that we never really got to see much of the mane six here. The realities were altered, but we don’t really get to know any of the AU mane six, which is lame. Applejack is the one we see the most of, but she’s boring, and we don’t even get to see what her changed cutie mark was. Without exploring these alternate reality versions of the mane six, these AUs were granted little impact.
That being said, the start of the episode was a decent enough lead in to it, and the overaching idea was solid. The fight sequences were decent, the flashing between apocalyptic realities was fun, and I liked the idea of rubbing Starlight Glimmer’s nose in the mess she made (though seriously, Twilight, you bloody well know why your friends are important – you saved Equestria with magical friendship lasers four times, and you and your compadres saved the country several times more than that). The animation was solid, and the alternate realities looked good.
I can’t say that I wasn’t entertained, but I was as much entertained by my own ideas as the episode, and Starlight Glimmer’s motives (and the ending) disappointed me and left me on a sort of sour note at the end of the piece.
Overall, it ended up in 3/5 territory for me – it managed to entertain, but while it excelled in some areas, it fell down in others.
In other news, season 5 is now over and done and I have finished my bingo card for the season. And… I didn’t get any bingos, though not for want of filled-in spaces.
I think I am proudest of my Royal Couple/Baby prediction, the revisiting of a non-capital city (in fact, we revisited more than one!), and Derpy speaking. Alas, I arranged my board poorly, and consequently walked away with nothing.
Still, I got a lot of guesses right, and there were several near-bingos. I’ll have to do better next season.
I see a bingo. Let's face it, the show will NEVER have an openly lesbian character, but Lyrabon and Rarajack are about as close to being in lesbians as we will ever see. Call it a technicality.
3586526
Steven Universe has a gay couple and a gay crush, so I don't think it is out of the question. I was a bit disappointed that they chickened out, really; it would have been really neat to have a gay couple on an episode around the time of the Supreme Court decision.
3586531 Stephen Universe has questionable sexes.
3586536
Ruby and Sapphire are both referred to as "she" in Keystone Motel.
3586541 Yes, but what meaning do personal pronouns have for a race of aliens?
3586541
The show creator and staff have said many times they are genderless on twitter and other places. Look, I'm sorry, as much as I like what they are doing with Ruby,Sapphire,Rose and Pearl; Steven Universe has gay characters on a complete technicality nothing more.
Edit: In fact I have a feeling they keep having to say they are genderless just so they can get away with having them in relationships in the show. It wouldn't surprise me that it's a directive handed down by Cartoon Network's higher ups.
3586548
The show doesn't ever refer to them as being genderless as far as I know. Moreover, it is a meaningless distinction; they are presented as being female characters. The fact that they are not biologically female (and are, in fact, aliens) is irrelevant. And frankly, most people don't read social media feeds of the shows they watch.
WALL-E and EVE in WALL-E are both sexless, being robots, but people assign WALL-E as male and EVE as female, despite being only vaguely anthropomorphic and having no secondary sexual characteristics at all.
The gems are outright anthropomorphic and are presented as being female characters, so, while they might be sexless aliens, they are still female for all intents and purposes. Rose Quartz has a relationship with a male human who treats her as if she is female in the context of the universe.
The fact that she was, technically speaking, a polymorphic hard-light holographic projection from a mineral is really kind of a pointless distinction. Given that everyone in-universe treats them as if they are female, I just don't find the argument that they aren't "technically gay" to be a very useful one.
Not to mention the fact that Rose Quartz apparently got pregnant with Steven, which pretty strongly suggests that she was female, throwing the whole idea of them being sexless to begin with into question - if they're sexless, how did Rose get pregnant? We generally define anything that can get pregnant as being female or asexual, and given that Steven is Greg's son, that kind of rules out the latter.
I mean, I'm sympathetic to people saying "Don't stretch stuff to try and pretend like there are gays in shows," but frankly, interpreting them as anything other than female seems like the stretch to me here. Contextually, socially, in terms of pronouns, in terms of overt physicality, and given that at least one of them managed to get pregnant somehow, it seems like arguing that they're genderless is just kind of bizarre. It doesn't really match with their presentation on the show, and while I'm generally sympathetic to show creators trying to "clarify" stuff, it really seems like a bizarre argument to begin with, given that we assign genders to things like androids.
Ok I'm only going to address a few points here because this is getting wildly off topic and isn't the finale let alone ponies anymore. And quite frankly I think you might be getting the wrong impression of what exactly I'm trying to argue here.
She shapeshifted herself a womb to do that she didn't actually have one at first. This I'm almost positive was either stated by Rebecca Sugar herself in a AMA or it might have been that guide book they put out recently. Also IIRC one of the the internet School Gem shorts said that they are genderless. Anyway this is not finale related nor pony related so I'm gonna stop now.
Really my whole point is that if you consider Ruby, Sapphire and Pearl to be gay (which I do) there is absolutely no reason to not consider Lyra and Bonbon to be a couple as well, which I also do. As this was very obviously what the writers were trying to say with the short and episode 100 if you thought about it for even a few seconds. They don't need to spell everything out for people to get what they were going for.
Edit: Would I love it if they did directly state it? Yes, I would love that immensely however I realize that we are still at the least a few years off from stuff like that. Maybe in season 6 or 7 or the Movie the show will take that plunge and I will love that day but even if they don't say it out right it's still extremely obvious that they are a gay couple. Heck it's in the same boat as AJs parents, It's obvious they are dead but the show can't bring itself to admit it, if they can't do that directly saying they have a gay couple in the show is going to be far more unlikely.
3586577
I have used LyraBon in stories, but it isn't the same thing at all. Lyra and Bon Bon don't kiss. Ruby and Sapphire do. Lyra and Bon Bon refer to each other as best friend, repeatedly. Ruby and Sapphire are specifically noted as being in a relationship.
Saying that they're the same is disingenuous. The shipping between Lyra and Bon Bon is entirely in the fandom's head; we have fun with it, but it ain't cannon. There's nothing on-screen that says "these two are
bumping ugliessmiting evil." Conversely, what we see on-screen in Steven Universe is two characters who are consistently addressed by female pronouns, who appear to be physically female, who kiss each other on screen and who are noted as being in a relationship.What we see on-screen is entirely different.
I take it "Pegasus parents" refers only to Rainbow Dash, Fluttershy, and possibly Scootaloo? Stormy Flare was a thing, after all. Granted, it won't get you a Bingo, but it's the principle of the thing.
In any case, the finale certainly could've been better, but it was still fun. And at least Starlight Glimmer got a little "Sweet Celestia, what have I done?" at the end.
3586604
See I dislike this mentality, this position of everything must be directly stated on screen for it to be canon. Nothing in a story can be implied nor can anyone infer anything and have it be anything other than a headcanon. To me it's silly and reductive to fiction as a whole, everything must be so blatantly obviously stated in your face. Seriously did you not get that them saying they were "Best Friends" several times over and over was a blatant and obvious euphemism for them being in a gay relationship?
This is a show that can't even directly state that AJs parents are dead, even in Crusaders of the Lost Mark using your own logic you could still argue that they are alive just somewhere else, like jail or something. You would be obviously wrong and saying such a thing would be rather stupid, but you could make that argument and couldn't be proven wrong using the show itself. Also as I stated before Lyra and Bonbon are extremely minor characters who have had maybe 5-10 minutes worth of combined screen time together let alone at all, not Main ones like Ruby and Sapphire. Expecting the same kind of development out of them as Ruby and Sapphire is IMO silly.
There was a canon gay character this season, though. Remember the stallion crushing on Big Mac in Brotherhooves Social? And remember how nopony was fooled by Mac's getup?
No fan interpretation required there; the show gave us a male character who's attracted to other males. There's your bingo, TD!
Ooh. I like your version of the finale. It definitely would make sense for Starlight Glimmer to be the main character.
For a gay couple, does TaviScratch not count? I mean, they live together in that super unique home of theirs. If anything, that's probably the closest we've gotten to a gay/lesbian couple in the show. Oh, and AU AJ offhandedly saying FlutterDash I guess. XD
Also, I don't know if these count for your bingo principles, but AU Nightmare Rarity super shut down spike, lol. The Wonderbolts also had RD join them in their big performance where they also talked about how she was a Wonderbolt in waiting and would be banned/kicked because of that guy's scheme.
Granted, counting those just makes your bingo card an even more impressive fail. <3
The piano scene from Rainbow Rocks and body language from Slice of Life pretty much confirmed "gay character" for me:
img06.deviantart.net/3c6d/i/2014/279/d/2/lyra_and_bonbon_piano_duet_by_midnight_st4r-d81tzxg.png
pre09.deviantart.net/ae01/th/pre/f/2015/172/2/5/bon_bon_x_lyra__request__by_the_queen_of_cookies-d8xc6n1.png
Do you think they had different cutie marks in different AUs? Because Fluttershy and Pinkie had their normal marks in Chrysalis-verse, as did Changeling!-Rainbow, -Rarity, and -Applejack, and Rarity had her normal mark in NMM-verse. So it seems likely the marks all remained the same, and quite possibly the talents too, bearing in mind Applejack was back at the Acres instead of in Manehattan in Sombra-verse.
3586604 orig09.deviantart.net/a83c/f/2015/262/1/a/subtlety_by_deusexequus-d9a5n9u.png
Just saying. If flowers in their hair and literally dreaming about being one pony aren't quite enough, I dunno, do we have to catch them in bed to decide they're at the very least sharing one?
I take offense that you were put off by Applejack's screen time. It also didn't make any sense in the fact that I expected her not to be at the farm because that was the entire point of her cutie mark story with rainboom.
I can see what they were trying to do with Starlight's backstory; a single broken friendship ruining someone's life, which fits quite well with the episode's message. I just don't think they did a very good job at actually breaking the friendship. I mean, letters and trains are things that exist, and nothing in the episode implies that they left on bad terms. And I'm still not sure how this led SG to cutie mark communism. If anything you'd assume her grudge would be against magic boarding schools.
As for the redemption, if you switch the order of the backstory and empty wasteland scenes, I think it's a lot stronger and more believable, but as it is it feels clumsy and rushed. (Not to mention a bit illogical-why is SG immune to seeing the end of the world, yet completely breaks down at Standard Twilight Sparkle Friendship Plea #27? Hell, the Hooffields and McColts took a bit more effort than that.)
I feel like what they had could have worked, but the pieces just weren't arranged and polished like they needed to be.
Side note: the NMM future was a bit odd, wasn't it? I mean, apart from the timberwolves I guess it didn't really seem much more visibly fucked up than the standard timeline. Contrary to popular fanfic interpretation (and, uh, common biological interpretation), the vegetation seems to be getting on just fine with only moonlight. And the dread fortress of the terrifying Queen of the Night apparently has tourists for god's sake.
What I'm really interested in is what the hell happened in that Flimflam Bros. timeline, which is implied to be one of the worst ones. Now there's an AU I'd like to read some fanfic about. Starting with how a pair of conpony unicorns with a cider squeezer managed to kill a near-omnipotent god of chaos.
I knew there were some big reasons Starlight Glimmer disappointed me, but I never gave it much thought. I think I was too distracted by BA militarized Wonderbolts.
Can I do Bingo with you next season?
For my money, Lyra and Bon Bon are gay in the same way that AJ's parents are dead, although maybe not to the same degree.
I had almost forgotten about this bingo card. Still great! This season checked a few boxes in the nonexistent purely aspirational bingo card in my head -- "Good pastiche episode" and "Historical mages other than Star Swirl exist" (one of my favorite things about a great premiere!) come to mind -- so that was nice.
I see bingo as well. Rainbow Dash joins the Wonderbolts in flying with them, even if she's in the reserve she's definitely a member, and you know there will be ugly Starlight Glimmer toys rolled out.
3586639
Okay, I laughed. :V
3586625
Applejack's parents haven't been directly stated as being dead in the show, but the implication that they're dead is extremely strong.
Conversely, they went out of their way to repeatedly have Lyra and Bon Bon call each other their best friend throughout that episode. That was a deliberate choice that they made. Why? I can't say. Did they have to because of the censors? Did they do it because they didn't want to make there be a lesbian couple? Do they just see them as friends, and there was no animus involved, and they just wanted to give them a verbal tic?
That's very different from Applejack's example; in Applejack's example, they're refusing to say "die", but the implication is very clear and they don't make excuses or pretend like they're still around, but just offscreen; it just isn't consistent with what we see.
Conversely, there is no inconsistency introduced by assuming that Lyra and Bon Bon are just friends. In fact, it fits perfectly with their behavior with the show - and in fact, fits better than if they are lovers.
The former is heavily implied canon, and they'd have a hard time writing themselves out of a corner there if they ever wanted Applejack's parents to be alive after all they've said and done. But Lyra and Bon Bon being best friends and nothing else doesn't require any wrangling on their part.
We're going to ship them anyway, barring them getting shipped with other ponies (which the show creators probably won't do because it would annoy the fandom for no reason).
3586642
People have same-sex roommates (or opposite-sex roommates) without being in relationships.
It is certainly open to interpretation in that manner, though.
I specifically meant that Rarity actually shuts down Spike on like, a permanent basis - i.e. she tells him she's not interested in him and never will be. Rarity shuts down Spike on a temporary basis like, all the time, but she avoids giving him the "I like you but I don't like like you" talk. Likewise with the CMC cutie mark (I didn't count that until they actually got their marks) and Rainbow Dash permanently getting into the Wonderbolts (she's still in the reserves, even though she's obviously going to become one at some point).
I was going with my actual intent in writing them, as a full explanation wouldn't fit into the boxes (and the lesser versions would be too easy).
3586980
Yeah, that world was remarkably mundane, considering. Though regarding the plants, season 4 indicated that the Sun magically brings out the day and the Moon magically brings out the night, as when both were in the sky, it was half-day, half-night, which... makes no sense from an Earth perspective.
Of course, while Nightmare Moon was a despot, she apparently didn't have to brainwash people into following her orders.
3587523
No just no, so your argument is that they are different situations because you personally think that having AJs parents be alive is to difficult for them to write and it would cause an inconsistency. Here are a few ways they could easily do this and make it work just like you are saying with Lyra and Bon Bon being friends: They are in jail or trapped in another Dimension of some kind. They were lost on some kind of exploration to the Unknown West (or some other unexplored area) but are still alive. They are spies and are on some kind of mission for the government. And to give examples as to shows that did these exact same things: Sonic SATAM, Hey Arnold (which by the way was only introduced in the last episode at the last minute; every episode before that assumed they were dead and said so), and the Spiderman comics (ok in that last one they turned out to be also robots but IIRC that was a last minute change in the plot) and that is just off the top of my head.
Both things are in the same boat, one does not cause more issues than the other and both have basically the same amount of evidence for it being canon, if you can argue one is unlikely then you can easily argue the other one is just as unlikely. If one is likely to be canon so is the other.
You know what here is what I'm interested in knowing: Without them directly saying it (just doing what they have been) in the show or anywhere else at what point would you believe they were a couple? How much would be enough for you, how strong would the implying have to be?
3587534
Oh, I got the details of each one beforehand. I just think it's funny that even if you did let those (non-gay character cuz that'll never happen) count, your bingo card would still fail. XD
This episode was a good illustration of the show's problems as a whole. It's shackled by its format and demographic. Not only does it have wonky pacing, but the villains and characters have increasingly awkward behavior and motivations, presumably to ensure that all the children who watch the show won't be confused or their parents offended.
Of course, I didn't watch the episode, I just skimmed the description on the wiki. So I might be projecting/biased/wrong
3586531 The Legend of Korra had a strongly implied lesbian couple, but the show's staff specifically said they couldn't be as explicit as they wanted to.
They were so subtle about it that it became sloppy writing, even.
3588773
I don't think either are actually problems. I think the problem is just poor writing/planning. You can write very good, smart stuff directed at TV-Y audiences, and most of the problems that the show has are just the result of poor decision making/poor story planning. They've done some really great stuff, both in MLP and elsewhere, and even 10 minute long shows like Steven Universe do impressive things within their time constraints.
3588935 I'll have to disagree about Steven Universe; I found its pacing, plotting, and world-building awkward and unengaging.
I will say that FIM had good pacing at some point. Whether the writing became more schizophrenic or I was spoilt by fanfiction, however, is something I still can't judge objectively.
There are other kids shows which can do very well, even have genuinely creepy moments and extended plot arcs (Gravity Falls, for instance). Does that only makes FIM's concessions to its demographic that much more noticeable, or does it help prove that their writing shortcomings are not merely the result of their format? We can but speculate
Depending on what you meant, “Founders of Equestria Referenced” might also deserve to be checked on your bingo card. Though it still wouldn’t get you a five-in-a-row.
I’m talking about this line from S5E20 “Hearthbreakers”:
One of the founders of Equestria was referenced, though not all three of them.
3639669
Yeah, I totally missed checking that one. Thanks!
Glad to see you've been enjoying my stories this evening, judging by my activity feed.
Honestly, I liked that Starlight was motivated by revenge. It's pretty understandable that she'd want to break the mane 6 apart as revenge for them driving her out of her own home.
She DID have a "My god, what have I done" moment. If you look at her face during the wasteland future, you can see the regret on her face as she realizes just what her revenge could do. And that also explains why she tore the scroll so slowly: She wanted to be talked down, but a small part of her still wanted to go through with the revenge.
As for her backstory, I honestly think that it works. Her ideology had to come from somewhere, so the fact that it resulted from her losing her friend while she was still a child makes sense.
As for not seeing the AU mane 6, I think we saw enough of them in the first 3 worlds to understand what they were like. Just take the Sombra War universe, for instance. That one showed that AJ was helping her family make food for the soldiers, Rarity was making outfits for the soldiers to wear, Fluttershy was shaving down the sheep for their wool and regretted doing it, and Rainbow and Pinkie were actually fighting in the war as badass soldiers. I'd break down the others, but I don't feel the need to.
We didn't see Twilight in any of them because the version of her in each of those universes was likely not in a position to do any good.
I pretty much consider this to easily be the best season finale of the show, and it put Starlight into my top 5 characters of the series.