Why I Hate Grimdark · 11:19pm Nov 18th, 2015
Keep in mind the following is entirely opinion based. If you like stuff I don't and it entertains you, more power to you. This is a backlash against angry opinions thrown at me and inherent smugness from some parties when I try to talk about this, not an attack on what you like or yourself.
Grimdark is a fairly common subgenre in fan fiction and fan works in general, and next to a bad erotica story, it's probably the label I see the most bad story telling under. I will not lie nor exaggerate when I say that a good 90+% of the grimdark stories, comics, or fan movies I've seen are pretty much trash. Does this mean those creators have no talent? Of course not! Everyone starts somewhere and I've seen many of these same creators do some good quality stuff.
So, why do I think a genre of a creative medium (fan works) that already is infamously subject to Sturgeon's Law* (*90% of everything is crap. For every 1 good ____, there are 9 bad _____) is especially bad? Why, if I had to list the top 10 greatest fan projects I've ever seen, not a single one would be grimdark?
Simple, it's f***ing hard to do right!
Grimdark is, at its core, a term used to describe a mix of genres. Primarily it's typically a mix of dystopia and cynicism. While it can lean on either fantasy or science-fiction in the original context, in fan works it usually can be roped under the horror umbrella. And this is a similarity a Grimdark fanfic and Horror movies share, in that they are famously subject to Sturgeon's Law when played straight. In fact many younger fanfic writers and artist's idea of what grimdark is, is largely influence by what they think horror is. And horror, like grimdark, is a lot harder to do right than many people might think.
It could be said that good horror uses well placed shock and scares to propel the central plot. This plot can be simple and summed up in a sentence, like 'Alien' is "Parasitic monster stalks crew on board a spaceship.", or it can be very mysterious and complex, like 'At the Mountain of Madness' having a very in-depth plot woven deeply into Lovecraftian mythology.
Bad horror on the other hand has to make up for big plot holes or lack of real plot at all with just one shock value overdose after another.
The core difference between effective scares/shocks and ineffective ones is all about build up and tone. How can "Halloween's" Michael Myers be doing something as simple as walking across a street towards someone trying to get inside a locked house, and yet it still be much more terrifying than Saw 3 butchering another group of people? It's all in the build up and tone. If it's too surprising and out of nowhere, all we get is the initial shock and nothing else. Instead we get a build up, with the suspense of him taking his time to get close to his target as she frantically tries to get inside. And because the film wasn't saturated in grimness before hand, we honestly don't know if she'll make it inside in time. We don't know if this girl is one of the victims or is going to live through the movie.
Good horror keeps you guessing as to who, if anyone is going to make it out alive and who's going to die. Bad horror means you know in the first 5 minutes who's going to get the metaphorical or literal axing.
And tone has another huge role to play in deciding both good and bad horror/grimdark. You can't just have one dark scene after another dark scene after another grit. If you do this you make everyone unlikeable because they are either acting like jerks, idiots, or idiot jerks, you destroy all sense of build up as you can't tell when things are getting bad; and you actually can ruin a good villain or threat. If everyone is acting like morons or cruel to each other, you can't really have a lead villain because we get no sense of range from good to evil or orderly to chaotic. If you do this, we don't end up thinking the villain is threatening or powerful, we just end up hating them like we hate everyone else. And worst of all for bad grimdark/horror, it destroys any sense of shock and fear, replacing it with boredom or nausea. The victims are always predictable, they are either scumbags themselves or the only decent people in the story because axing off a nice person in a gratuitous manner is the only way these people know how to try and get a shock.
This pretty much sums up my reaction to a bad grimdark fan story killing off a character.
"Oh gee, the idiot/jerk/manipulator/criminal/a**hole/only-nice-character just got killed off in a gratuitously gory manner, what a shock..... I wonder if there's any bad sex fics in the featured section of FimFic I can laugh at."
Happier scenes aren't just a good thing to have in well made horror/grimdark, they are needed. Just dragging your viewership through the mud with your grittier-than-sandpaper content (lookin' at you Ultimate Marvel) means it's impossible to get shock or scares in. Because we've been getting almost nothing but that for the last X amount of time! I once read an otherwise fantastic Star Fox fan story, but gave up over 20 chapters in because for 3 chapters straight it was nothing but-
"Kay he's being tortured, reading on..... Still getting tortured..... Still getting tortured.... Yep, still at it. Here coming the flails.... Still going.... Still go- How is he not dead yet or going into shock?........ Are we ou- nope! Still getting it......................... God this is boring."
It ruins the characters, ruins the suspense, and kills the surprises. Don't.Do.It.
And if I could pin down the single worst offending trait in bad grimdark characters? It's bad use of villains. Imagine a homicidal Mary-Sue with the biggest case of plot armor. They never make a mistake. All their plans go according to plan. They win out in situations or against opposition far stronger than they are. They trump situations that should have killed them. And they often prescribe the same old, overused smug bastard personality. Understand this, powerful villains can and have been used very, very well. If a character has the power or resources to back up their threats, we buy the threat. We'll buy how smart or dangerous they are if we can see the situation as likely for this scenario. Arthas from World of Warcraft, the Emperor from Star Wars, Thanos and Darksied in Marvel & DC, Freddy Krueger, the Xenomorph from Alien, and a huge list of villains and threats too big to count. When these guys and gals step up to the plate, we know things are going south. But, they aren't invincible. Plans can backfire, opposition can fight them off, etc. They don't always win and when they do win, we buy that it could and would happen that way. When a villain we know can lose wins in a believeable manner, we either feel impressed that they are crafty enough or scared that they are strong/skilled enough to do so. A grimdark villain sue on the other hand often wins out in situations and consequences that don't really make much sense. Their wins are an Ass Pull that leave some people scratching their heads as to how the villain came out on top when it comes out of nowhere, makes little sense, and seems very contrived.
Here I'll give you a situation I've seen in two individuals' fanfics in the past back when I frequented Fanfiction.net.
Common fantasy-medieval setting. Nation is ruled by a well liked monarch with a reasonably high amount support and has a large amount of resources and power (either fantastical, financial, or by political influence across the classes) to secure rule.
-Good Villain
The villain manages to take hold of an established power that could beat those under the royalties', amassing a large group of followers from outside the kingdom's domain, works with political enemies of the monarchy, and causes destabilization. Then, with a large force under the cover of a distraction or stealth, sneaks into the palace and overcomes the monarch, killing them and throwing the kingdom into chaos. Villain then goes public, using his/her resources to offer stability and gets put in charge. They are fully aware the populace liked the old rule, so they fashion themselves as a legitimate successor, rather than a hostile usurper.
Good example of this sort of take over is Darth Sideous from Star Wars.
-Villain Sue
Common powered villain with no authority or support SOMEHOW causes revolts in the kingdom, and through a huge gambit, manages to exploit some small shortcoming in the monarchy that somehow works in this setting despite all previous knowledge or logic. Monarch acts like a total moron, gets killed. Sue takes their place and the populace should be, or outright are, well aware of what happened does nothing to stop this as it's happening or has happened; Sue wins incontestably with no effort and gets away with it scotch free.
If you're villain requires plot-convenience-playhouse and leaps in logic to be effective, you got a bad villain. I don't like them, I am not intimidated by them, I just want to drop a pissed off kaiju on top of them and get the story over with.
But, people do all these things. Why? Well, because not only is there a small fan base who eats this up thinking its high class entertainment, but because a lot of folks honestly think this is what good scares and mature story telling are. Just throwing more and more gore on the screen and make everything miserable to no end, because that's edgy and extreme riiiiiiiiiiight?
Worst of this is the people so rigidly clung to this sort of ideology is that they think that because it's so gritty, it's instantly more 'mature and smarter' story telling than more upbeat stories because it's 'realistic'. Yaaaah, humanity can be a bag of d***s at times, but compare the total violent criminal population to the world at large. Compare the number of serial rapists and killers to the number of doctors, firefighters, police officers, soldiers, teachers, engineers, judges, lawyers, chefs, religious leaders, and other public servants. Not all people in those categories are all good, but I think I've made my point. Across historical trends, despite sensationalist news, humanity as a whole actually is very good and getting better. Crime, racism, wars, violent deaths, poverty; they are all actually at all time lows and globally getting lower. Humanity is also the only species that regularly gives a damn about other species, not just endangered animals, but common household pets. As a social species, we are actually hardwired for altruism, those who break that mold are the outliers not the norm.
Even the worst of situations and times or in the most seemingly obvious of scares, people do find a light at the end of the tunnel. True evil intentions are very rare and most often than not real selfishness and cruelty in people's goals don't last long, either due to a self realization or other folks realizing "Oh look, cruel bastard who just got the good king axed so he could rule is being a jerk, let's fix this problem."
tl;dr - Humans can be bastards and we aren't saints, but we aren't bastards by nature.
And this should be reflected in good horror. Evil is something in everyone, but it's full expression should be very uncommon. It should be alien, uncanny, and unexpected because that's what makes it frightening and grim. Both amongst the characters themselves and in the circumstances. This precarious balancing act of tone, shock, plot, and idealism-cynicism is very hard to do properly and only a rare creator can do it well.
I'm not one of them, so I didn't even bother to try despite some, well, see for yourself -
*ACTUAL GODZILLA MOVIE FOOTAGE
So gritty, much angst.
And this I think is the biggest difference between "So Bad It's Good" horror and badly made Grimdark. SBIG Horror like most of the later Friday the 13th series are fully aware it can't be truly horrifying so instead it becomes self aware with some degree of lampooning itself. Victims unlikable? Okay, we know we're not mature so we'll make just make it laughable and entertain you in how over the top it can be; be it in a ridiculous premise like Jason going to Manhattan or silliness like one character trying to box the killer and getting his head punched off. It gives that range of tone in a different way and actually is another example of smart film making. Bad grimdark on the other hand is convinced it's smart and edgy story telling in a self given high. It doesn't embrace the inherently bond leaps in logic and weirdness because it thinks it's a lot smarter than it really is.
Just because something is gritty and violent, doesn't make it smart. It can be, but these traits aren't bound to each other. This is why while I don't care for either of the two popular 'Fallout: Equestria' stories, I do respect the first one, but disliked 'Project Horizons'. I can tell they both had a lot of talent and hard work behind them, but the handling behind the first story just seemed to flow better than P.H. did. Thus I hold a lot of respect for Kkat, but do dislike P.H. for what I just saw as gratuitousness at many points.
In conclusion, throwing grit, grim, and shock on the screen doesn't make you or your readers more mature. Like all genres, grimdark/horror requires talent and not everyone has that specific talent. Good scares and shock requires a broad range of emotions and tones so you can get a grasp of just how bad things have gotten. If it's nothing but one obviously impending run through the grit train after another, it gets boring. And a boring story I think is the biggest disservice to horror one could do.
PS: Again, it's okay to like or dislike stuff differently from other people. But there is a difference between having an intelligent disagreeance and just mindlessly spouting hate.
(PS: 3-8-1-16-20-5-18 6-9-14-1-12-12-25 4-15-14-5 1-14-4 21-14-4-5-18-7-15-9-14-7 16-18-15-15-6-9-14-7)
So basically you hate half-assed Grimdark is what you're saying.... also I think you got Godzilla perfectly in character if he could actually communicate.... though I do have one thing.... why doesn't he show up more often?
an example of "So Bad It's Good" horror the original Evil Dead movie
3551526
And people mistaking gratuitous shock for good horror and thinking something is mature and clever based off how sue-ish their villain is or how much gore they can throw on screen.
And Junior shows up in chapter 26 again
3551530
I'll drink to that. And the sequel especially
3551532 Okay. Might look over it again.
3551538
26 isn't out yet oxo
I was saying he'll be in the next one, sorry for the confusion.
3551542 AH. Thanks. Also? BRING THE PAIN JUNIOR!
something that Godzilla needs to show is his epic ninja skills he displayed in movies, just appearing outta nowhere and surprising everyone
Ah yes, grimdark. The immoral deeds of fiction that supposedly supposed to be forms of art. We have dismissed that.
...Okay, sorry. I couldn't resist.
Anyways, I agree. I hate grimdark. {The only reason I like Warhammer 40k is because of the unique ideas and races....The Dark Eldar, however, are the worst faction I have ever seen...Why? Just why?} I do my best to avoid them, because I'm one of those people who, you know, like having periods of breathing in my stories. Places where the reader can take a breath, focus on character interaction, something to make me smile. That's what I always strive to do in my own works. I don't know if I succeed in that, but I try my best.
This is why I've read scant few Fallout mlp stories. The only one's I've read either were rather tongue in cheek, parodies to an extent, or just had such likable characters. {So, less than ten.} Eh, I prefer looking for cute romance stories or stories that actually delve into characters...TO which I ask, why Suri Polomare got such a passup in that regard? Good chance for some depth, but she's either forgotten or used as an 'grimdark tool' in that she's beaten, humiliated, or even in one story she's mind raped and it's okay, because she was mean to Coco...Ugh.
3551542
How horrible that those anonymous douches talk shit about your work
Tarbs, your story is awesome!! Don't take shit from them. You are one of my favorite fanfic writers out there.
Your work inspired me to write MLP fanfics.
Ugh…Those anonymous guys make me wanna do this to them:
31.media.tumblr.com/21a047abb2d79759dad5bdc2fa4b5401/tumblr_nvqbbcpli61qfr27po1_500.gif
Gridmark is something that trying to understand: just a mix-mash of movies or stories with horrible plots, right? The sharknado franchise is, in my opinion, one of the most notorious examples for gridmark.
3551625
2. Eh? If one were to put Bridge into a category I'd say its more an Adventure story. Hence why it doesn't have a 'Dark' tag. Only reason 'Sound of Thunder' has one is due to whole Mirror!Junior is still carnivorous bit, which will be restricted to one scene and was shown off screen.
People have been misunderstanding how to use dark themes for years. After seeing Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns, they mistakenly got the idea that dark = good (when in fact those stories were good simply by virtue of being well-crafted) and ended up creating all of the misbegotten grim-and-gritty comic book anti-heroes of the 90s.
Also, those anonymous folks who maliciously reject The Bridge simply because Junior isn't a rabid killing machine are simply not worth listening to. For all intents and purposes, they're not saying anything at all.
i will play a little of devil's advocate here. i do understand why some individuals prefer the Godzilla that kills people like in Heisei, the beginings of Showa and Millenium, and those destructive versions are the most popular, what is the first thing a person that barely knows Godzilla would think when they want to describe the character? "oh he destroys cities and crushes the army, etc" the thing is, this is not the Godzilla of those films i like that Godzilla personally, it is in my opinion that Tarbtano made a good job in making an heroic version and let's make a statement here, why would a destructive Godzilla destroy the pony civilization? did they throw a bomb at this head and left him for dead like the humans? if Godzilla needs to be a villain then he needs to have a reason for killing.
BTW i am not defending those annonymous individuals, they are dicks.
ahhhhh allow me to bask in the light of that anon~
..........
why would i do that? i don't wanna get infected with stupid.
FINALLY, SOMEBODY SAYS IT: GRIM AND DARK DOES NOT ALWAYS EQUAL "MATURITY". I am SOOO glad somebody sees the whole stereotype is full of crap. Steven Colbert once said "Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don’t learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us. Cynics always say no. But saying “yes” begins things. Saying “yes” is how things grow. Saying “yes” leads to knowledge. “Yes” is for young people. So for as long as you have the strength to, say “yes'." This is why I'm glad we need to put that idea to bed. I think some people say that "Darkness and cynicism is more real" due to the fact to them, pain "lasts a lot longer than joy", so the more it hurts, the more "real" it is, but that's not how the world works. People can be touched by the good things in this world just as much as the bad things can hurt us, and that doesn't make the positive side of the world less valuable. There's a reason why works like Evangelion, which even though is grim and a bit painful to watch, has a positive message at the end: Happiness can be found anywhere if you look hard enough. And I'm SO glad that you realize this as an author Tarbtano. There are too many dang cynics in this world. It's about time we show them that optimism can be just as strong.
3551887
I love you buchiboo, I really do~
I don't think I ever considered Godzilla grimdark, dark sometimes. But grimdark?
A good example of grimdark IMHO is the Warhammer 40K franchise.
I am reminded of the film that put Jason Vorhees in Space. Humorous concept, film is still watchable.
I am also reminded of that campy live action Batman series starring Adam West. Still good today despite the fact Batman is an inherently grimdark franchise. Humor is found in every Batman production. Movie, game, or TV series.
3551901
Couldn't have spoke the words any better myself my friend, and reading this warms my heart to a great degree
If you want an uplifting message about finding the good side of what people look at as grim, look at my favorite holiday of the year, Halloween. In it's modern version is has a lot of variation of view, from the old pagan celebration, to a secular harvest time, to the modern age. These days, some people only see the bad side of it where horrible individuals do horrible things or equate it to true evil like the devil. But instead, look at the more common side. With all the worry of stranger danger and child victim hood, Halloween is a very unique day of the year. A day when we dress up as everything from monsters to super heroes and send our children to the homes of complete strangers to get candy from said strangers for them to enjoy. Halloween isn't just about costumes or getting our freak on, it's a celebration of human trust and generosity.
I can hardly think of a more universal and upbeat message from almost any other holiday.
3551722
And the fact that they're ANONymous makes their opinion even MORE worthless. They're not critics, or even cynics. That would be giving them too much credit. They're just COWARDS, who think they can get away with saying terrible things while hiding behind the mask of anonymity. If you want to say something mean to us, say it to our FACES, that way at least you have the GUTS to show that you're willing to face the consequences of your action. But if they're just gonna hid behind a mask, their opinion isn't worth a damn.
3551901
Darn right. And as a corollary to that, let's also remember that the terms "mature", "adult", and "good" are not synonymous. As C.S. Lewis once said:
“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
3552033
3552014
As the primate behind this blog, I wish to officially dub you two, the Bridge Fanbase's Chief Philosophers
3552049
Oh my! I'm honored.
3552049
*
....................*INTERNALLY SQUEEEING
*outside*
I hope to continue to enlighten and be hopeful to all who wish to write and read MLP. That's kind of the crux of the series. 
I'm honored sir.
3551934
love you too >//w//<
As much as I like grimdark fanfiction, you pretty much just list all the wrong with grimdark and horror stories in general. I always if you don't like these type of things then stand away from them. I'm sorry you have hear from these type of fans, we're not are like that.
3552168
Oh I'm well aware not all are like that. I myself am a long time horror fan. I just dislike many attempts at grimness I see in fan works and the common misconception that something being dark-and-edgy automatically means its more 'grown up', 'realistic' and thus 'better'.
i hate Grimdark too. it can ruin otherwise great stories. i'm looking at you, DC Cinematic Universe.
3552076
3552102
3551585
3551611
3551940
I love you guys. I've found it very rare that a reader base can include so much humor as well as well thought out discussion and analysis. God bless you all
And to celebrate this reminder of how lucky I am to have such friends here on Fimfiction, I'll speed up my effort to get Chapter 26 readied up. Lance mah' boy, get ready, PM's heading your way soon!
3551937
Quite true. Very dark moments in the franchise outside of the first film are actually kinda rare. In my count you'll find just as much ham-and-cheese narm as you will grit.
3552211 You're welcome, Tarb.
{I honestly want to write a blog/do a video detailing how you're fic is the perfect representation of how to do a crossover properly.}
3552211
Yay!!
vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/camphalfbloodroleplay/images/a/ac/Fluttershy_yay.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131116041722
3552211
You're very welcome, Tarb! It's been a blast reading The Bridge. I've read okay fics, I've read really good fics, and I even once glanced at the first few paragraphs of a fic where the writer completely forgot to use commas (but let's not talk about that...). But every so often, I've read fics that are so well-written and so incredibly awesome that I honestly want to own an official hardback copy of them. The Bridge is most definitely on that list.
And oh man, I can barely wait to start proofreading. ^_^
1. Well said Tarb.
2. What universe/fandom do we live in where The Bridge is considered "a sh*t stain on the internet" and "Bastardization of the Godzilla character" but these:
are just fine?!
Well I 100% agree with your opinion on some grimdark/horror. For horror films its very true for most horror films because we'll know who's going to die or who's going to make out alive but then gets killed in the twist endings in most horror films. And also the commenter on your tumblr, yeah I'm not sure if he even seen any godzilla films that does quite hilarious scene in some movies . Thus you did a hell of a job on the fanfic giving the kaiju personality/characteristic. Don't let the hate get to you and keep doing what you love!
Thank you. Just, thank you.
You just summed up why I don't like some work that are considered dark mature (such as Elfen Lied and District 9) and why I hate Fallout: Equestria despite being a big Fallout fan (for your information, I played every single game in the series except for Fallout 4 (I'm a bit short on money at the moment. I'll probably get it on Christmas) and the craptastic Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel (which is rare, and not really worth it anyway). Paradoxally, most dark and edgy stuff I'm seeing seems more juvenile than mature (the finest example in that category would be All-Star Batman and Robin, which takes dark and gritty to the point of being hilarious, and I'm not convinced that it was intentional).
With MLP, I've learned to embrace stories that are ridiculous, but know that they're ridiculous and work with it while including a lot of cleverness. Nowadays, I tend to read and watch uplifting stories (like Discworld which despite the world being crappy and a lot of people in it being horrible, it manage to be both genuinely funny and uplifting with great characters) and I tend to frown on the darker stories even though I can enjoy some. For example, I love The Witcher 3 for it's rich history and genuinely likeable characters, and yet I still groan when it's sidequests constantly puts us in no-win scenarios. I love Mother and Earthbound for their compelling and uplifting story that celebrates childhood imagination (as well as friendship and family), and I frown on Final Fantasy XIII for trying WAY too hard to pile on drama on the characters.
And you want to know why? Because I don't need to be reminded of the dark side of humanity. We're living at a time (today more than ever) where it's constantly put on display thanks to the news. I need something that makes me smile, that pulls me back there, that makes me want to go on. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that dark themes can't be explored. They can and they should. But they should be done with care and attention.
To give you an idea, despite all I've said earlier, my favorite video game story of all time is Planescape Torment. The setting is incredibly grim and probably one of the darkest RPGs I've played, and yet I love it.
To those two idiots who gave you those comments, I have only this to say: The 1998 Roland Emmerich movie is neither canon or a good representation of Godzilla. Hell, I've only seen Rebirth of Mothra (sorry, I kept missing your streamings (I'm on the road when they happen)) and I know how silly they can get.
For a good time, I've been avoiding adventure fanfics on this website because of their tendency to go grimdark (the sequel to one of my favorite fanfics turned grimdark and made me hate it real fast. I won't name it, but I'll say this: it fell in every single pitfall you mentioned). I'm slowly going back there thanks to your story and a couple of other ones.
Woah. I'm noticing how wordy my comment is getting. I guess I have a lot to say.
I can go into more details, but...only if that's OK with you.
3552354
Fire away buddy, you got some great thoughts to give
I am glad. Bridge is certainly going to have its dark moments, but I won't forget the inherent silliness from both franchises PMB just helped remind us all over. I'll be shooting for a pretty even balance between the two.
Also if you do want to see some G-films, I got a large collection of digitized copies I can send via Google drive. All I'd need is an email to send the file too.
3552349
Noted and thank you for your kind words :)
Don't worry, takes more than some hate spam in the anons to get me down. I was laughing at those two messages when I found them!
3552302
OMB you glorious Derpy Icon you!
Yep! This is what I was talking about! And may I remind people almost ALL of this came out Pre-Late 1990s. Toho signed off on this and it had approval of the then still living Tomayuki Tanaka. THE CREATORS OKAY'D THIS.
3552226
Ah shucks! >w<
But if you do, yay! More Evo wizardry! Still reading through your stories and last PM XD
I think our takeaway here is best summed up by this trope: Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy. If a story's conflict isn't meaningful, then the audience likely won't get invested in the story.
Fallout Equestria is indeed on the Fanfic subpage of this trope, and the example brings up an interesting possibility as to why some consider FO:E and its spinoffs to be even more depressing than actual Fallout canon: "there is only so much horror that can be placed in a video game before it becomes impossible to sell, while a fan fiction doesn't has the same restrictions".
Wow. I really learned a lot from this post.
Sheesh. Now I see how people disliked my story. It's one of those things that I wish I did differently sooner. Like I wish I thought of lighting up the mood a bit more earlier on. You know your stuff, Tarb.
3552402
I'd have a lot more, yes, but I need to get some sleep, so...probably tomorrow.
By the way, I think I already gave you my email address in a PM (which happened to be a gmail address). If you can't find the message, I'll be happy to send it again.
3552533
And that's one of my biggest problem with Fallout: Equestria and every single Fallout fan would point that out (unless your only contact with the series is Fallout 3, which was also guilty of this, but not to that extend): The Fallout series didn't took itself seriously. The main premise is based on old Cold War propaganda and 50s sci-fi and pretty much every heavy moment is balanced by some black comedy. It often makes fun of itself and how ridiculous it's premise is. The stories can get dark, but they have some sort of silliness (or the great characters from New Vegas) that often goes to the point of parody. The best example would be Vault City which was a collection of noir-style stories combined with a crapton of movie references and a scientology parody.
Fallout Equestria doesn't have that sort of self-awareness and does indeed takes itself way too seriously for it's own good. The problem is that it doesn't have good (or even likeable) enough characters or a good plotline to balance things out. Hell, aside for the blatant name droping and the similar technology, it had nothing to do with Fallout (the author could've easily turned it into a S.T.A.L.K.E.R. crossover without changing much. The S.T.A.L.K.E.R. universe is much more appropriate for that kind of story in my opinion). There were moments where I was convinced that the author had never played a single Fallout game in his life (except maybe 3) since the whole fic was so lifeless and humorless (I can't recall a single joke).
Sorry if I turned this into a rant, but I needed to get it off my chest.
3552639
It's fine, you actually make really good points (and I've had plenty of my own rants). I admit, I actually haven't played a single Fallout game or read a single FO:E fic, so I personally can't make any actual judgements or comparisons about either series at this point.
You think you are so clever senpai. Well guess what!? I SOLVED YOUR DAMN PUZZLE!
A-1, B-2, C-3, D-4, E-5, F-6, G-7, H-8, I-9, J-10, K-11, L-12, M-13, N-14, O-15, P-16, Q-17, R-18, S-19, T-20, U-21, V-22, W-23, X-24, Y-25, Z-26
Chapter finally done and undergoing proofing.
Got you this time tarby!
This is all set true! It's also why The Cupcake Chronicles is one of my favorite fics, despite being an offshoot of Cupcakes. The source material is, for all its fame, bad. It's not even SBIG bad, it's just bad. "Pinkamina" is written as some one dimensional cardboard cut out Jigsaw knockoff, the plot is nonexistent, the fic is written entirely as gore for the sake of gore, and generally it's just all around poorly written from a writing point of view. So why can such a shitty grimdark fic spark such a good "alternate ending" sequel? Because the way milesprower06 writes it, Pinkamina is no longer need dimensional. She's a victim herself of a psychopathic split personality. The third act, involving the journal that the Cupcake Killer (as Pinkamina came to be known as within the fic) kept, gives a horrifying, yet thrilling insight into the villains actions. The best part of it is that the journal isn't just one slice up after another, it takes breaks, it gives insight into the psychology of the Cupcake Killer. Pinkie Pies fight to break through the personality split, her aversion to it all. The story itself moves to strike into the reader: family and friends of the victims, Rainbow Dashs recovery, and the story of her finding a meaning to a life without wings. Her finding love, the road to recovery for all of Ponyville. It really is a great read, and that's because it's able to craft art out of a pile for shit. It's able to take a bad villain and make her a good one.
3552033 Somebody watched the film from Saberspark.
I don't think I've ever read a grim-dark story. I suppose it's like some of the sexual fetishes out there, you're either into it or your not. My not reading grim-dark is because the style doesn't appeal to me, be it a well-written story or not. Much like how there's types of porn, that just don't intrigue me at all, no matter how much I try. I know that somebody out there likes watching Brazilian girls take a shit on some guys face, but I just don't see the appeal, and frankly I find it repulsive. So if someone out there actually likes the gory, torturous stuff, then I suppose he's like that guy getting a steamy coil laid on is head.
Perhaps my biggest consideration regarding a story's content, is whether or not it's natural for that particular world. For instance, there'd never be a 'Kiling Joke Joker' style villain in MLP, or even a Babydoll from TAS. But in their own world, they're perfectly fine. If in some story about a dystopian future where a deliberately released alien virus makes humans attack each other with animalistic savagery, or the aliens use humans for grotesque entertainment, then grim-dark would be the obvious choice, ere the tone wouldn't fit the narrative.
I can appreciate if Tarb doesn't like gory stories, but I think his real gripe is with bad writing. Bad writing can ruin a fantastic premise, while good writing can make a shit premise seem alright. Another instance is Livewire on the new Supergirl show. I really like Livewire as a villain, she's a lot of compelling features, but the quality of the show is mediocre.
"Now Heatseeker" you say, "I read Punisher: MAX, and that was a really good stroy!" You're right, Punisher: MAX was a great story, filled with murder, blood, grotesque violence, sexual abuse, cursing, and all manner of R-rated goodness. It was great because that's the world that Frank Castle lives in, and that's while living in the same world as Iron Man and Thor, who fight enemies of fantastical and supernatural elements. The issue is not one of dark tone vs. action-adventure tone, it's a matter of quality story telling
I've never read, Fallout: Equestria, though the notoriety within the FiM fandom certainly leads me to think that there's something for me to enjoy. I mean, if I let my uninformed biases stop me from exploring new material, I never would have gotten into MLP, or even into the varied political, historical, and social issues that I enjoy so much.
So if you write a grim-dark story, what you should concern yourself with, is making a good story. I can't see any reason why a GD story couldn't be a great story. But I could write an adventure or romcom story just as bad if not worse than any GD Tarb is talking about.
As a matter of fact, I'm going to premise a GD story right now:
It's about a young college student in Florida, aspiring to be a scientist, and he enjoys being a hobbyist writer. But he wakes up one day to find himself befallen to a horrifying death at the hands of an alligator. But after slipping beyond the mortal coils, he finds himself back in his bed, and that it's morning again. To his alarm, he discovers that he's stuck in a time-loop, and that each day ends with him being killed in a different but no less gruesome way, be it in a vehicle crash, a robbing gone fatal, or a working clown who can't take it anymore. With each passing day he becomes darker and darker, resigned to suffering some new torment-filled final moments, only to be resurrected for some new evisceration like Bolgia 9 from the 8th layer of Hell. The story ends when, believing that he's trapped forever, he suffers a total break, and murders an innocent person, thinking that it will be undone before the day is out. But he is captured by the police, and put in jail. The conclusion is that he's deemed criminally insane, and day-and-night from his cell, screams and pleads for someone to kill him and restart the day. I think I'll name that guy, John Tarbtano, and the story: "TARBTANO II: THE REVENGENING OF BERNARD"
Now I'll just sit back and wait for my invite to the super-cool guy philosopher club.............. Yep, only a matter of time now. Even got my Nietzsche 'stache
I grew up while the slasher movies were a new, "edgy" concept. I remember them being popular because they were new and dark and gritty. And of these new, dark, gritty movies, I've only actually enjoyed one, the original Halloween. In the '80s and '90's in particular, gore and shock replaced good writing and competent acting.
It should go without saying, I am not a grimdark fan.
One of the reasons I like MLP as much as I do is that it doesn't lend itself to either grim or dark in and of itself. Some elements of grim or dark can be worked in, but over all the setting is very light. I can't name one instance of character death (outside of Sombra, who seemed to me to already be dead/undead) in the main series. What it is, however, is well written.
Give me good writing over edgy any day.
HAHAHAHA YES!. your are actually speaking the truth, oh how glorious....
(By the way i'm not being sarcastic)
3552033
Oh man, I love that quote by C.S. Lewis. Just as much as I love this other particular quote: "Growing old is inevitable. Growing UP is optional." Pretty much sums up our status as lovers of MLP and other good cartoons. :) Who's to say that we can't enjoy or learn anything from cartoons or other optimistic works, just because people don't consider them "mature"? I think a lot of people consider the "joker-mentality" MATURE because it's "DARK AND EDGEY" and leaves a lingering taste in people's mouths, but like I mentioned earlier, good works can have a lasting impact to, and MLP is probably the biggest testament to that fact. Dark works can inspire and leave an impression, but if you want to leave a lasting impression, you have to at least put in a positive message, and not just gore and pain for "shock value". Even dark works like "Games of Thrones" aren't completely nihilistic in terms of story telling, every dark moment has a point in the story that moves the plot in a specific direction, and not just for laughs or for shocking the audience. Works like "The Mist" and "Cupckaes" are probably the worst examples of "Dark" writing, because there's no point to it all. Just blatant nihilism for the sake of it. No, that's not good story-telling. If you want to include Darkness in your tale, at least show that the Dawn is just over the horizon.
3552211
I'm glad that we have that much of an impact on you Tarb, just as much as you've had an impact on us.
I know you probably get this kind of praise from a LOT of fans, but again, you've made a crossover SO obscure, so unusual (I mean, come on, KAIJU WITH PONIES), and you've made it work. But not just made it possible, you've expanded on material and characters that we didn't think possible, and blended a universe so well (Pacific rim, Godzilla, Gamera, and so many others), that it's good enough to be it's own entity. That is amazing Tarb, and I look forward to more additions of the Bridge. It's probably one of the most unique fics I've ever read. 
>> Tarbtano
That's how I feel about adult shows now a days. Sure we get shows like Game of Thrones once in a while but there show that like to have gore, sex, and language just to get a quick shock from us. That's why I like shows for younger audience because they're a lot more clever then what think they are. So I can understand. I always believe that if you are writing a fanfiction for the first time is best to avoid writing grimdark at less for a while, because they're so hard to write.