Why Crossovers are Bad · 1:17am Oct 28th, 2015
Generalizations are a dangerous thing. They often have exceptions, and require subjective judgements to make. The subject of today’s opinion piece, however, is a generalization that I believe in.
Today, I’d like to discuss why crossovers—in all their forms—are inherently flawed. Crossovers are one of those particular genres that represent a very large number of gradations and variations in execution. The types of crossovers are a separate post; this generalization applies to all types of crossovers.
Crossovers violate some of the fundamental rules of storytelling. Storytelling is about eliminating redundancy, conserving detail, about streamlining the experience for the reader. While extraneous details can have their place in specific genres and specific scenes, they often drag a story down.
A crossover takes two universes—two fictional constructs that are fundamentally independent—and smushes them together. Creating a story this way is incredibly awkward; stories are designed to be self-contained.
Let’s take an example (and let’s make it generic so no one nitpicks my illustration). Lets say you have two franchises; A and B. They both star a plucky, hot-blooded female protagonist. When the stories cross over, there is now an inherent redundancy in the story construction, one that did not exist in either of the original properties. You now have two copies of the same archetype, and they react to situations and approach problems in similar ways.
Every time a story event happens, you have two characters react to it in the exact same way. When reacting to a new story event, both of their reactions have to be covered.
I know what you’re thinking, Jimmy (do you mind if I call you Jimmy?). “What about the elements that aren’t redundant? Doesn’t introducing those create opportunities for interesting stories?”
Yes, you have a point. Here’s the problem though; why do those elements need to come from a crossover? If you have a world that lacks magic, why does it need to crossover with a magical world? Why not introduce the magic from a source besides a crossover? That way, you still have an interesting plot point, without any of the baggage that a crossover creates.
Crossovers have their place in a fandom, of course. The “wow” factor of having familiar characters meet can be worth the sacrifices made (at least to some people). Crossovers work on that level: entertainment with fandom appeal. As someone who values story construction and execution over fandom appeal, however, I see nothing to enjoy about crossovers.
It took me a long time to formulate why I disliked crossovers. I think that trying and failing to write a good crossover so many times is what helped convince me. Human in Equestria has similar problems (among others), but it is more pronounced with crossovers.
I know this is an unpopular opinion, particularly in the world of fanfiction. Nearly every other person I've encountered on the internet has vehemently disagreed with my position. I tried to give fair consideration to their counter-arguments, but none of them have changed my mind. Crossovers are bad writing. They rely on appealing to particular fans, rather than constructing a competent story.
As always, comments, counterpoints, and criticism are always welcome. These blogs are meant to spark discussions above all else. I know all my followers are polite and erudite, and can discuss even a contentious topic gracefully.
Why write fanfiction? The source already has an established canon developed by its original writers. Anything a fanfiction author writes isn't a competent story, because they haven't created anything original of their own, and are relying on appealing to particular fans.
Oh, I see how it is. *walks away sulkily*
3501573 Writing fanfiction isn't the same as writing a crossover. Fanfiction doesn't make fundamental sacrifices to its story structure, as a result of its genre. It can be constructed as well as any other story.
Some of fanfiction's problems and strengths, however, do lie in the pre-existing familiarity that can be expected from the audience. I do think, however, that all fanfic stories should ask if it would work better as original fiction. During the conception stage, those are the sort of questions that should absolutely be asked.
Crossovers, meanwhile, have that preexisting familiarity as their only advantage. They also must alter the way the story is constructed as a result of their genre.
It's apples and oranges; they're both fruit, certainly, but they taste very different.
3501584 You were there. You saw the mess that happened when I tried to write a crossover
I haven't read Death Note: Equestria (or any of your other, less account-defining crossovers), but I did read the TVT page. There, the question I would ask is the same; What does following the Stations of the Canon add to the story?
If the story only put a free-murder device in Equestria, without importing any of the other plot elements of Death Note (like the characters/plot points), would the story still appeal to the same people? Would it make the story flow more smoothly, make it more gripping for the reader?
That's not a question I can answer without having read the story. You've written over 400k words of crossover, and I've written less than 12, so I have no doubt you have more insight on the matter than me
3501643
This, and your entire post, make me wonder exactly what you're defining as a "crossover". Virtually every crossover I've read lacks the full cast of both stories, and a great many (for example) do character replacements, putting the cast of X in the setting/plot of Y; it seems like you're railing at a strawman when most crossovers pick and choose elements of their sources in order to avoid the problems you describe.
(Full disclosure: I wrote a crossover that was a runaway winner of an audience-voted Writeoff Association competition. I've also helped approve some really brilliant crossovers for the Royal Canterlot Library, and I'll defend those vociferously as not just good fanfiction but as excellent stories.)
Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with 3501668 here. It sounds like you object to stories with redundant elements, rather than crossovers on their own.
There are plenty of crossovers that work because elements of the two works complement each other to create something new. For example, the fanfic My Little Chrono: Triggers Are Magic, a MLP/Chrono Trigger crossover, follows roughly the plot of CT, but with the Mane Six ponies in the protagonist roles. As such, they are combinations of the ponies and CT protags, becoming something different and new in the end.
Yes, redundant elements should be done away with, and there are crossovers where the author just shovels in new characters simply for the fun of having them, when it would be better to focus on a smaller cast. But this is not exclusive to crossovers, nor do crossovers necessarily have to suffer from redundant elements.
3501668 I am defining a crossover as "When two or more series share a common reality and interact.". To me, "inspired by" and "crossover" are distinct things. A Whole Plot Reference isn't (intrinsically) a crossover, for instance.
I noted in the blog that crossovers have "a very large number of gradations and variations"--any story that takes elements from two distinct series is a crossover. Which elements, how many, and the nature of their interaction is too varied to properly cover. It can also be subjective; is Aᴄᴛ ᴏғ Wɪʟʟ a crossover? It takes the central, signature plot element of a different story and has it interact with ponies, but doesn't take any of the plot or characters.
My opinion is definitely biased by my experiences. There are no doubt many things I have not considered. I figured that three "my opinion" disclaimers in a blog post was too much, however.
3501703 That raises another question: how much needs to be changed, for a crossover to differentiate itself from the original? "Follows roughly the plot of" could mean many different things. I've seen many crossovers that simply retread the original story with imported characters. I've seen others that make some attempt to tell a new story, but are still similar to the original. I've seen yet more that take elements and no plot.
Obviously this problem isn't exclusive to crossovers, and fanfiction crossovers run the gamut.
3501711 Indeed. It's important to consider "Does it add something new that wasn't there in the original materials?" I've read a few fanfics that were just - word for word - the original material but with names swapped out. There's nothing new.
Conversely, the story I mentioned above sticks close to the game plotline, so far (I think) adhering to every mandatory point. (Even some game mechanics are addressed and occasionally subverted.) However, it's still a good read because the ponies in the place of Chrono et al. put a new spin on how they act and impact the setting, and so keep it interesting.
Of course, it is a "fusion" crossover, which some people don't consider a "true" crossover, so yes, I agree that it can depend on where the line is drawn and what really constitutes a crossover.
3501643 From a certain point of view (hi Obi-wan!
) fanfiction and crossover fiction are kinda the same, really. One is taking two established canons and mushing them together in amusing ways, and the other is taking an established canon and an unestablished canon and doing the same thing.
I'll certainly admit that (from my currently-not-writer-how-hard-can-it-be perspective
) writing a crossover seems like it would be easier, since all of the background work has been done by someone else, which could seem lazy I guess. But the idea that nothing new or interesting or good could come from a crossover work strikes me as... a gross overgeneralization? I mean... what's wrong with asking the question, "what happens if x and y meet?" 
Granted, 99% of everything is terrible.
The only problem I have with crossovers is that you usually have someone who is very intimate with the details of one of the worlds and passably knowing of the other. Rarely do you have someone who is equally versed in both.
If you are an author and write fanfiction for one show and are considering making a crossover, it is a good idea to write at least one story in the other fandom's fanfiction before attempting it.
I myself don't dislike crossovers, if done correctly, but I can agree with some of what your saying. There are just some fandoms that just aren't ment to meet. But if it takes place in an alternent universe then cannon, like how most crossovers take place, then it could be a good or even a great fic. For example, The Strongest Man in the World is a great crossover/displaced fic that takes place in an alternent universe that combines both mlp and one peice elements into an engaging story that, even if you didn't know a thing about one peice (like myself) you would enjoy it. Another great example of a crossover done right would be the fics that are crossed with The Dresden Files. I knew absolutely nothing of the continuity of the dresden file books and threw the few I read, I didn't get lost or feal like I was missing anything. The authors really took the time to explain the littlest of important detale, be it for the plot, running jokes, or even the characteristics of both the ponies and the crossed in characters were, in my opinion, spot on acuret. What I really think what makes or breaks a crossover would be the author themselves. If they don't take the time to really chart out how the characters will interact with one another, or even how the cross would work, then it would be doomed from the start.
Crossovers aren't intrinsically bad. Most of them are awful, but that's because most of them are ill-conceived.
The two things I've seen which are most successful are:
1) Character/setting transplants. Basically, you replace characters from story A with ones from story B, alternating story B accordingly because now you've got characters from story B in it, who react differently to events.
2) Serial overlap. Basically, you take characters from episodic type works (My Little Pony, Sherlock Holmes) and put them into the same verse. This tends to work best if the verses could plausibly be the same verse, share many of the same rules (or could be explained as sharing the same rules), ect. but it isn't absolutely necessary. I think a big part of this is making sure that the transplanted characters don't feel too out of place in their new world - Sherlock Holmes and Watson are not "huge" in terms of occupying world space, being a couple of people, but someone like Princess Celestia tends to bend the world around them to too great an extent to really work.
Though I can imagine a Bible/MLP crossover now where we find out that the stopped sun during that one battle was not the will of God but of Celestia. :V
I... hmm. I guess I prefer "Whole Plot References" to what you call "crossovers," but in my mind, it seems to me the part you don't like about crossovers occurs in both of them: the requirement to understand both canons. ...Or does it? I mean, you technically don't have to have read Hamlet to understand The Queen Beckons, but the story makes a whole lot more sense if you do. Same goes for any other good crossover or WPR. Like Dresden Fillies: I've only read two or three of the Dresden books, but the writer does such a good job of writing in Jim Butcher's style that I get all the Dresden characters, even the ones I hadn't met yet. It's like Butcher himself is writing it!
So here's another question, then: do you like "ponies plus" stories? You know what I mean: where the premise of the story could be shortened down to "ponies plus" whatever the story is about. "Ponies plus guns," "ponies plus deep-sea diving," "ponies plus gender dysphoria..." you get the picture. I kinda feel the same way about "ponies plus" stories that you do about "crossovers:" if the writer doesn't do a good enough job of introducing us to the "plus" thing, then those of us who aren't familiar with it feel lost in the dark. In fact, that's your argument, isn't it? Bad crossovers are just "ponies plus" the character from the other canon (the exocharacter?): "Ponies plus Raymond Reddington," "Ponies plus Optimus Prime," "Ponies plus Duncan Idaho." If that's what you're arguing, then I agree wholeheartedly. But I think there are good crossovers that avoid that pitfall. Dresden Fillies comes to mind, again.
EDIT: As to WPR stories, I agree that having the characters just go through the story point-for-point is lazy. It can certainly start that way, but since the new characters and the old characters are different, the timeline should start to diverge somewhere. (Hence why The Queen Beckons jumps the rails in Act 4.) I mean, Twilight Sparkle and Victor Frankenstein are both ambitious geniuses, but they would react very differently to their creation coming to life!
I have to respectfully disagree in defense of my own crossovers. I present a very different case than the ones you describe, since one of the franchises I work with is Magic: the Gathering. There is a cast to work with—quite a few of them, really—but I focus more on the setting. I try to bring the worlds together and let the story flow from there. Getting two very different magic systems to cooperate with one another is tricky, but rewarding, and I try to avoid the exact redundancies you describe.
And why one should make a crossover at all? Because it's fun, same reason as any fanfiction. There are added complexities in trying to wrangle the two settings, but that makes getting something that works all the more rewarding. Still, I suspect that Sturgeon's Law has a multiplicative effect. That is, for a two-IP crossover, 81% of all stories are crap, 18% are half-crap, and only 1% are non-crap.
I'm certainly not saying my work is perfect, but I think there are many more issues from amateurish mistakes that I should really go back and revise than in the choice to combine two franchises.
Hard to argue with this, since I just read four crossovers with the same franchise and they all sucked. :V Well, one didn't, but it was also more thematically attached and wasn't really a true crossover.
Well... I don't normally argue with those that I consider my betters.
But. I will say that you're wrong here. Because of the sweeping generalization, mostly.
No story concept, no genre, no trope is inherently bad. It's up to the author to either fly or flunk with it.
3501711
Still confused. Those are very different things; all four stories linked in my original comment meet the second definition but only two meet the first.
3501827 I actually encounter the opposite situation; a crossover is only good when one lacks knowledge of one source material. If one is already familiar with both sources, they are more likely to notice mistakes or poor integration.
This happened to me in particular with Fallout: Equestria. Whenever I read a Fallout: Equestria, to me it just reads like an inept Fallout fanfic.
3502146 I always say that references should be able to work outside the context of their reference. My standard example is Fable; in Fable, the zombies are called "hollow men". Even if you've never read the T.S. Eliot poem, the term still works as a bit of unobtrusive fantasy terminology.
Of course, the opposite situation is also worth examining. If a story is less interesting when one has context, then which audience is it for?
I generally find "ponies +" stories to be very lazily executed. I see a lot of "ponies + gender politics" or "ponies + suicide" and so forth that handle their subject matter with a complete absence of tact. I wrote a whole series of blogs about why "ponies + guns" is usually done badly
I consider them distinct from crossovers, though. "Crossover" implies a closer relationship between two preexisting franchises.
3501980 Both of those types of crossovers tend to repeat the same problems. Character/setting transplants tend to stop at that (And thus rob the story of any tension). Serial overlap tend to lack direction; the characters faff about for a bit and never develop any goals.
It raises the same question; if you wanted to see a particular plot, or particular characters interacting, why not just consume the original?
3502180 That raises the question of whether fanfiction is a good exemplar of crossover quality. I'd say that an amateur field mimics the patterns of the professional.
This blog post is aimed at all crossovers, not just fanfiction ones. Two of my favorite franchises once crossed over (Hellboy and Beasts of Burden), and the result was a lackluster narrative. Comic books cross over all the time, and there the entire appeal is explicitly the act of crossing over, not the story that results.
3502876 Perhaps stick with the second one, then.
As I mentioned in my last reply, crossovers have so many types and sub-types, that at some point what constitutes a crossover is a subjective question.
I know it's an overused sentiment at this point, but perhaps "I know it when I see it" is the best I can do.
Perhaps the difficulty I have in defining this particular opinion is one reason why it is always so contentious
3502505 Tropes are tools, absolutely. In the case of crossovers, however, I feel the tradeoffs they make are not worth it. As I mentioned, the wow factor isn't worth it for me, but it can be for others. And for crossovers that include franchises the reader is unfamiliar with, the sacrifices to story construction become less pronounced.
And while I'm flattered that you consider me a competent writer, everyone is a lifelong learner. My experience might inform my opinions, but they definitely don't make me infallible The more discussion, the better
3503201 Well I mean my opinion is that anyone who throws shade on Fallout Equestria pretty much instantly loses all credibility, so
Repeating the same stances when everyone is commenting "but look at it this way" doesn't make you right.
Crossovers aren't inherently bad, end of story.
It falls down to choice in IP and execution.
3503201
Oh. Well, taking that into account, I have to agree by and large. Official crossovers usually just focus on the fact that two franchises are meeting and unroll all of their headliners for maximum spectacle. The writers may feel that that kind of thing is required; it's a momentous event on a Doylist level, so it should be equally notable on the Watsonian. Why have Superman and Captain America just shake hands when they could be beating the living snot out of each other for some contrived reason?
That same thinking often trickles down to fan fiction, but I think it can also be avoided there. Without the legal and collaborative effort needed to create a legitimate crossover, a fan author doesn't have to create a star-studded spectacle. The story can be lower-key, or perform the crossover in ways beyond just throwing the casts at one another.
3503254 I have looked at it many ways.
I respect your opinion, even if I disagree with it. Please do the same for me. I'd rather not make this the first blog post where I have to delete comments for rudeness.
3501844 Yes I agree with you on that. I do believe that only Crossovers can be done right, as for the ones I'm writing I think they probably not to good but I like to write. I just want to imagine what it's like for the characters to meet.
3503392 I respect your opinion and nothing I say can change your mind because I do not have a good argument to use.
From what I've read from other comments you tried a crossover once? And then what I gathered it failed?
Then this blog post seems more like you venting your frustration then anything ales?
I will just say I respect your opinion and I will hold onto my own.
Thank you and good day and or night.
3503828 I formed this opinion after reading more than one crossover. I wouldn't be so petty nor brash as to make an assertion about an entire genre after reading only one example of that genre
3503201
), more that both have the same kind of feel if you're too lazy. There should be more to the premise of your crossover than, "Ooh, what if the ponies met [X]?" I think we both agree about that. And yeah, if you're on a one-fandom site like this, I think your crossover fanfics should be clear enough if the reader doesn't know anything about the other series.
I think I agree with you, generally. My point wasn't necessarily that having stories with exocharacters is like a ponies plus story (although that is what I literally said
Now I'm curious what you'd think of my exocharacter story: The Table at the End, a crossover with The Booth at the End. I'm quite fond of it, as I think I did something really interesting with the concept of "the ponies have to do difficult things," but I did write it three or four years ago, so it may just be self-nostalgia.
My opinion is that crossovers are a very tricky tool to use. There isn't anything inherently bad about them, but the things you mention is a very common pitfall for most of them. I will mention that a really good author can get a lot of good work using different elements in the source materials of a crossover to contrast, compare, emphasize each other. For example, you mention:
However, if we were to take two franchises, one with a plucky, hot-blooded female protagonist and one with a dour stoic female protagonist, you can have the two of them reacting off and against each other in various ways that explores and develops their characters.
As for the why use a crossover instead of just doing a story set in one or the other? Same reason that you can give for why to write fan fiction, it's easier and/or more efficient. To address what you said here:
I can either spend some time developing a bookish character, spending time introducing her to the reader and explaining her general nature, possibly at the expense of plot/pacing, or I can just use Twilight Sparkle and move on. Which, yes, can be used as a crutch for lazy or less skilled writers, but it can also be used as a very useful method to reduce exposition in a story.
Another aspect is that it, just like fan fiction, can add depth to the world. You can put in a minor reference and people who know that franchise will get the reference and (hopefully) will think about all the ramifications of that. In a crossover you can do that in more than one dimension with a efficiency of prose you couldn't manage otherwise. You said you didn't like the story, but I'm going to use Fallout: Equestria as an example. That title alone is actually a pretty good one, but lets go with the basic premise. Magic ponies in underground vaults. Boom, if you are familiar with both of those you get a concept in your mind that would take a whole page to describe to someone who doesn't know about them. If you only know one, it might take a bit to describe the other but you might be curious as to how it would change or affect the parts you do know about. Basically a crossover comes with baggage, but a good writer can use that to their advantage instead of as a flaw.
So I basically agree with you in that it is ridiculously easy to get a bad crossover for the reasons you mention. Just want to point out that I feel there are reasons to write crossovers, and ways in which an author can write a good one. As in, a story that is good because it is a crossover and not in spite of it because the author's skill makes up for the problems of it being a crossover.
3505538 You raise some good points. I think there has to be some question, however, of where diminishing returns kicks in. At what point does having more shorthand available (in the form of characters, universe mechanics, and setting details), stop being worth the disparity it creates? Or worth the additional effort it takes to consolidate the two?
Setting up a crossover takes development and explanation, in its own ways. Even if the audience is familiar with each ingredient of the crossover, they still need to be shown how the elements interact and how they are different from their sources.
You're absolutely right that it always comes down to execution. I have yet to read a crossover that does execute it well, but I suppose I must admit one might hypothetically exist. The subjective nature of fiction also means that what doesn't work for me, may work well for someone else.
3506071
Yeah, always a matter of the author's priorities and weighing what works for the story and what should be tossed out.
3506071 I think the real issue is that most fanfiction never asks the question can I tell the exact same story without making a crossover. Most of the time the answer is yes. Sometimes it's simply you already have the characters you need, for example Freakazoid is super hero character that could easily have his role played by Pinkie or Discord. Also if ponies end up in an under attack role with some more war/violence driven franchise, you could easily replace them with new helpless race and it wouldn't matter. Also one trap is that having two similar chars together might be fun, but char types that don't match up could be far more intreresting. A story about Twilight and Raven from Teen Titans could go somewhere since Raven is generally gloomy and Twilgiht very much isn't, but Raven and Pinkie would be much more intresting because there is the inherent conflict of someone not smiling and Pinkie wanting to fix it. Also going for a much larger scale of crossover where things are super epic is another obvious trap, like for instance now I'm brainstorming and might actually write that idea about Raven and Pinkie and there will be no big stakes, just two chars I'm familiar with interacting in a funny way.
But one reason to do a crossover is that there are two universes where the interaction between them is the core of the story. For example, a universe where magic of any sort is outright evil and Equestria is this inherent conflict becasue things work differently. You could just introduce some other strange place where this is true, but two worlds with their own consistent rules that suddenly interact, even if only in the chars minds, there is plenty of ground to cover there. Yes you could get all of this by creating some other alternate world but using the same chars and setting doesn't actually work for some stories simply because the gap and clash between the two is the story.
An excellent and concise communication. Thank you for posting it. While I haven't the time presently I agree with your position.
I have to admit, I don't buy this argument at all. Your conclusion is that crossovers only work because they appeal to existing fans.
But here's a counterexample. I read and often very much enjoy dozens of crossovers. But in most cases, I have no prior investment in them at all†. In some cases, I had never even *heard* of the other canon before I read the story! Clearly there is something there beyond simple appeal to the familiar.
Bafflingly, it's clear that you're aware of this phenomenon (3503201) but never connected the dots to realize that even in your own case, shallow preexisting appeal was meaningless or even directly counterproductive. (I really hope you were not somehow falling into the pitfall of assuming "the masses" had ignoble attractions that your refined spirit had risen above. That would be quite sad.)
I don't know for sure what actually does make crossovers good, but if anything, I suspect it's the fun of watching how an author brings in new elements that they have only limited control over and weaving them into a coherent story — the essential artistry of further restricting possibilities in order to open new ones and inspire ingenious solutions. It's also intriguing to try to guess, based on their writing, how the original canon fit together. So I don't think it's reasonable to assume that all or even most fans of crossovers are just lazily looking for combinations of all the things they already like.
†To be fair, of course, that was also true of MLP itself when I started reading MLP fics in the first place. There is some possibility that I'm just weird that way.
3501830 Strange Friends.
3975181 Actually, that's not really a counterexample: it both disagrees and agrees with different parts of my position. My point was that crossovers sacrifice story construction by their nature. The act of combination makes the story worse because it introduces needless elements and bogs the story down.
Now, your like of crossovers that you've no prior familiarity with raises two ideas. It implies that you might not be as bothered by the way the elements of the two franchises interact, because of your lack of familiarity. On the other hand, it also implies that you thought the stories were constructed well despite the crossover elements.
I think that 3505538 raised some good points on this matter. If we assume that the advantage of crossovers is the ability to compare and contrast things--and with a greater efficiency than original fiction or single-franchise fanfiction--then that is a defensible position.
You also raise a good point: that crossovers can be interesting because of their worldbuilding: the way that they fuse two disparate franchises, and the elements they choose to use of each, can be an interesting mental exercise.
I don't really like that type of writing, though. I want my stories to be stories: I want plot and themes and characters. I think that headcanon and explanation and exposition are a means to an end; they shouldn't be a goal, because then they would be better suited to a blog post than prose.
Obviously, fiction is subjective and that is a matter of taste. It might, however, help explain my position.
3975284 The interplay of a good crossover is not just the worldbuilding, but characterization, plot, and the whole shebang. Several people have already mentioned Dresden Fillies; Stardust, Falling Stars, and Pericynthion should also be considered, I think. None of these stories are simple worldbuilding exercises; on the contrary, each of these works is improved from top to bottom by the juncture of two canons.
In other words, the efficiency you mention is not limited to one or two aspects, but is pervasive. (Pericynthion is a good example; its themes are not merely effective with the chosen canons, but almost dependent on them.)