Questions Raised By S5E21 "Hearthbreakers" · 12:47am Oct 26th, 2015
Introduction
I generally liked this episode, which had something important to say about sub-cultural variance in Equestria and how customs can vary even among kin. There are some interesting questions raised by the story, however.
I. What Is the Nature of the Choosing/Pairing Stone?
If there was something like this in our world, it would obviously be a Magic Feather -- a ritual engaged in to give newlyweds greater confidence that their marriage would work. This being a world where Earth Pony magic explicitly exists, there's a good chance that it does work as advertised. The question is, how? And how is it used?
A. How Does It Work?
Does it somehow analyze prospective pairs to see if they are genetically and psychologically-compatible, or divine their destinies in some directly temporal fashion? How do the prospective users of the Stone communicate with it? How does it communicate with them? (my guess is some combination of the first and second, and communication is by directly touching the stone, generally both members of the prospective couple at the same time).
B. How Is It Used?
Does it find mates for lonely Rock Ponies who consult it? Or do Rock Ponies form couples (rather by parental arrangement or mutual preference) and then consult it to find out of they are compatible? Or does it seek out Rock Ponies and inform them of who they should wed? (my guess is generally the first and second, both by arrangement and preference, with the third occurring rarely if at all).l
C. How Universal Is Its Usage? Is it only one or a few families of Rock Ponies in that area who use it? Or is it used very widely by the whole Rock Pony subculture? How seriously are its edicts taken? Useful advice, or pronouncements which must be obeyed on pain of expulsion from the community? (my guess is that most couples would consult it before getting married, and it would be seen as a bad omen if it rejected the pairing, but that the omen need not be heeded).
D. Where Did It Come From? Who made or grew the Choosing Stone? Is it an outgrowth or emissary of something larger, perhaps a divine being? (In the Shadow Wars Story Verse, there's a very good chance it's heritage from either the Crystal Empire or the sapient mountains that existed in the Time of Extermination/Reclamation, or both).
II. Pie Sisters Birth Order
The previous evidence (from "Cutie Mark Chronicles," "Maud Pie" and "Pinkie Pride") was that the birth order was Maud-Pinkie-Marble-Limestone, with no twins and Limestone the youngest. This was based on the fact that Maud is stated to be older than Pinkie, that Pinkie got her Cutie Mark before Marble and Limestone, and that Marble seemed to have been drawn to be larger than Limestone. The new proposed birth order is Limestone-Maud-Pinkie-Marble, with Pinkie and Marble being twins.
We have now seen Limestone and Marble's Cutie Marks, but only as adults. We have never seen Maud's Cutie Mark, and she may be adermosigmatic (which would explain why she always wears concealing clothes). If Maud is an adult adermosigmatic, this would in the Shadow Wars Storyverse be an atavism: one branch of the Pie family is ancestral to the Ponies who colonized Sunny Town, who also suffered from adult adermosigmatism.
It is possible that Limestone is the oldest but is just very small. If so, her aggressiveness might be in part overcompensation for her small size: she needs to be taken seriously to make deals for the Pie Rock Farm, and one way to do it is to be aggressive. In the Shadow Wars Storyverse, she might also be taking after her maternal aunt Foidolite ("Fighter") Pie, who had a personality similar to the one now displayed by Limestone.
Limestone's in other fan sources was generally assumed to be cheerful and optimistic. It is quite possible that she was when she was younger, but that more recent events have badly soured her on life. To my mind, this is a hint to fan writers to equip her with the appropriate frustrations and tragedies.
I'll start: if she's the oldest, then she has gotten to see two of her younger sisters succeed in the wider world, while she remains behind running the rock farm. She's also unwed, and we see no sign of a beau on the horizon. It can't have made her happier to see the obvious attraction between Marble and Big Mac, increasing the likelihood that she will wind up running the rock farm alone and taking care of her parents as they get too old to do the heavy farm labor. (Or, alternately and in line with my Earth Pony matrilineality, get to witness Marble and Big Mac's marital bliss first hand when he moves to the rock farm; while she remains lonely, in full knowledge that her abrasive personality scares stallions away).
Alternatively, if we stick with the original birth order and Limestone is the youngest, she's taking charge because she's the most practically and tempermentally suited to do so (Maud and Pinkie have careers away from the rock farm, and Marble is shy and retiring) and has to exercise leadership despite being the youngest Pony in her family. In that case she's overcompensating for her youth by being bossy.
III. Big Mac Apple and Marble Pie
They seemed attracted to one another: given the rating of the show, the sexual conservatism of both families and the shyness of both characters, they were practically all over each other this episode. We don't know if things will develop farther, but it's certainly possible. I find it hard to believe that Show will dare go into a serious romantic rivalry between Cheerilee and Marble, or carry the story to the point of Big Mac marrying one of them -- but then, Show has pleasantly surprised me before!
No, incest is not an issue. They may be fifth cousins, which would mean a 1/1024th genetic similarity, which is to say that they would share a bit less than 0.1% of the variable parts of their DNA. This is trivial, both biologically and in terms of the customs and laws of most civilizations. They might marry or have sex and babies all the livelong day without consequences in terms of inbreeding.
No, they're not going to hop right into bed. Both the Apples and even more so the Pies have many markers of sexual conservativism. Sex would be a very serious step even for Big Mac, more so for Marble (who given her isolation, shyness and youth is almost certainly a virgin), and if a sexual relationship formed, both families would expect them to marry in the near future. Doubly so if she got pregnant.
Yes, they would have opportunities to see one another. Each has responsibilities to a farm, but neither are chattel slaves. And their towns are connected by a rail link, and their families related by both kinship and friendship ties, and hence likely to visit each other in the future.
Granny Smith and Applejack would probably see no problem with Big Mac courting Marble; Applejack approves of Pinkie Pie and wouldn't at all mind if she wound up becoming sisters-in-law with her. The more interesting question is what Igneous and Cloudy would think. (My guess is that they would be glad that Marble was falling for somepony honorable like Big Mac, which implies that he'd be especially wise to treat Marble respectfully, to keep the good opinion of her family).
We might get to see the Choosing Stone in action, to various results depending on what it said. The same is of course regarding Pinkie and Cheese Sandwich, but then Pinkie and Cheese will in the end do what they want regardless of what any other Ponies or lithic objects think of it. Marble Pie strikes me as much more submissive.
IV. Are Rock Ponies Now A Thing?
It's obvious from the episode that Igneous and Cloudy are practicing a variant Earth Pony culture rather different than the one we see at Ponyville. Now, though I haven't published it yet, I have been working for my "Poniternity" series (about how the Ponies diversify as they advance and expand to colonize many worlds beyond the Earth) on a Pony Kind called the Rock Ponies, who mine and refine ores and crystals from both rocky planets and the cores of gas giants. It may be that Ponies like the Rock Pies are the beginnings of this new Kind.
If so, it's possible that their culture might be based around crystal-matrix sapient supercomputers, essentially baby versions of the Paradise Entity, which serve them and help coordinate their society. The Choosing/Pairing Stone(s) might be an early manifestation of such aints. In the Shadow Wars Story Verse, they might be literal children of the Paradise Entity, who released them into the main Ponyverse to aid its Friends.
Rock Pony traits would include extreme strength and toughness even for Earth Ponies, and a psychic connection with the Earth-currents (geomantic energy flows ultimately powered by the natural nuclear fission reactors at the cores of geologically-living planets such as the Earth) which they could tap into to peform various feats of navigation and analysis within the crusts of such planets. Maud Pie, in this analysis, would be a harbinger of the future evolution of the Rock Ponies: one day, there might be many many Ponies with her set of powers.
Since mining and refining are slow activities even for them, they would tend to be very culturally-conservative and family-oriented, even by Earth Pony standards. Enterprises would frequently be multi-generational, and promises taken very seriously (as Pinkie repeatedly demonstrates). They would be a very important Pony Kind, though, as the majority of heavy elements within a star system not actually within the star would be in the rocky planets or the cores of the gas giants.
As centuries passed, the Rock Ponies would develop modifications and variants able to live not only in the crusts of terrestrial worlds, but also in their mantles and cores, and even in the impossibly-hostile environments of gas giant cores. They would become the master miners of the Ponyverse.
Conclusion
This episode has given me a lot to think about, particularly in connection with the Pie Family and Pinkie Sense and Sensibility, which assumed the old birth order. I am not sure exactly what my conclusions will be, but I of course appreciate suggestions from one and all.
I imagined the pairing stone being used to try and pair up Marble and Big Mac... only for it drag him for miles until he's at Cheerilee's hooves as a joke.
I wanted to see how you'd work this episode with your fanon.
A quick note: Maud does have a cutie mark. It is visible briefly as a freeze frame bonus in Maud Pie. To the surprise of absolutely nobody, it's a rock.
The creator's notes have said Maud's cutie mark is a dark gray diamond.
One writer suggested that Maud is the oldest, while the others are triplets.
The four sisters are quadruplets. *nods* How else would you explain their emotional spectrum and acute understanding of each other?
They never did say how much older Maud was than Pinkie so it's feasibly possible... Though I'd feel sorry for their mother if that is true. 
I thought the MarbleMac shipping was cute.
3496949
I'd be surprised poor Cloudy was alive and able to walk normally if that was the case!
3496955
Extremely so. And rather xeno in terms of the postures they were assuming and the likely reasons why.
I've always been a proponent of the grandfather clause when it comes to published works getting jossed. (Heck, I have a series that makes use of the now thoroughly debunked headcanon that Octavia was one of the Pie sisters!) Basically, if you've already put the story out there, you shouldn't feel obligated to try to accommodate canon. If you can make it work and want to make it work, fine. If at least one of those conditions doesn't apply, then that's fine too. Besides, isn't that kind of retcon the sort of thing that leads to Paradox?
The idea of Pinkie's family being the beginning of a subspeciation is a fascinating concept. It certainly explains how they're able to eat rocks. (Though that does highlight just how terrible griffon scones are without baking powder.)
Also, I feel I should note that we did briefly see Maud's cutie mark. In fact, it's rather familiar. I can only imagine Rarity's reaction should she ever find out.
3496981 Earth ponies be tough. Just picture the ordeal it would have taken to have a foal that ended up Big Mac's size.
What l enjoyed the most about the episode was the massive amount of world building present in the ep. although Defender 2222 raised some salient points in "his" review the episode. As for the birth order put them in their canon order but make Claire the twin of Limestone instead of Pinkie therefore you can have harbingers (or champions) of Paradise for each of the "normal" twins. So the order would be: Maud, Claire/Limestone, Pinkie/Marble
3496998
The old birth order, which I based on "The Cutie Mark Chronicles" and Ask the Pie Sisters, works better for my established fiction. In particular, I assumed this writing Pinkie Sense and Sensibility.
I might very well write the Pairing Stone into my version of the courtship of Igneous and Cloudy, and it might not even be inconsistent because of the distinction between Intention and Betrothal outlined in "Country Courtship" (basically, they might indeed have gotten married within a few weeks after the Stone, acting as an avatar of the Paradise Entity, approved their match -- but one of the reasons for the really short formal Betrothal would have been that they had been Intended for years before that time, and putting it off so that Maud, Claire and Pinkie could be born. But for this to work, Marble and Limestone absolutely have to be the youngest of the (five) Pie Sisters.
Needless to say, the Pairing Stone would have then approved their match, as "necessary" in Mentor of Arisia's terms, because Igneous is needed to ensure that the three eldest Pie Sisters, the chosen ones, grow up sane. Also, it's Marble and Limestone's destinies to organize the stargate system, built by Claire, that makes possible the Equestrian interplanetary rail network and the extremely rapid Pony expansion into the Cosmos -- and, incidentally, makes the Pie Family almost absurdly rich. Though I imagine their attitude toward wealth to be rather similar to the Norstrilians from Cordwainer Smith's universe. They're ascetics (who help found the Rock Ponies) with the exception of Pinkie Pie, who is a hedonist (and who helps found the Paradise Culture).
(Thus, Igneous and Cloudy are the LUCA's, or Last Universal Common Ancestors) of both the Rock Ponies and the Paradise Culture, so to speak, because in fact Ponies can move from one culture to another).
The notion of Octavia Philharmonic being a Pie sister was my inspiration for making her a descendant of Harmonia Pie and Adventurine Miter, via one of their sons. Octavia doesn't have a clue that the "Harmony Pie" who figures in their family tradition as a brilliant musician and angelic singer was the same as "Horror-Pie" from the Nightmare Night tale of the Cannibal Cupcakes. She would probably not be happy if she discovered this fact.
As Celestia points out in Twilight's flashback in Post-Traumatic, she found Harmonia Pie (whom she knew personally for a time) to be quite an admirable and likeable Pony. Aside from the whole equine-sacrifice-by-slow-torture-followed-by-cannibalism dark magic business, about which Celestia was at the time quite ignorant.
3497001
Possible, but then I have to junk the whole story where Igneous continues to love Cloudy and comes to love her three eldest daughters as his own despite the fact that he could reasonably view himself as being cuckolded by the Paradise Entity, which is meant to be an awesome triumph of the Pony ability to Love over circumstance. And this decision on his part proves important, because it ensures that Maud, Claire and Pinkie grow up good and honorable. That's too beautiful a tale to abandon lightly.
It also results in Maud being the eldest, not Limestone.
3497066 well, whatever you choose l'll probably still read it
3496889
MAUD: I eventually had seven children. The Cutie Mark of the first one was a rock. (*beat, eyes narrow challengingly*) All their Cutie Marks are rocks.
3496984 Eeyup.
I think it was pretty obvious that the third option is the most common one (or at least the one implied by Pinkie's parents). Their dialog by itself is open to interpretation, true, but then what closes the deal is Granny Smith's line, she asks if the Stone might know and would help her find a mate, particularly an apple farmer, and both Pinkie's parents visibly agree that it is possible, Igneous further confirms it by saying "Indeed so". So while the first two options are definitely possible, it's pretty clear that the third is nothing rare to them.
Also, the whole Stone thing was an answer to "So, how did you meet this Iggy feller?" which very strongly implies that they did not know each other beforehand.
Another possibility is that there actually are two Stones, the Paring Stone acting as a matchmaker, and the Choosing Stone acting as a means to formalize or bless a match made by the Paring Stone. Could be that Pinkie's parents were matched by the Paring Stone, and then were betrothed within a fortnight once the Choosing stone gave it's verdict. In such case it could be possible that couples who were not matched by the Pairing Stone could simply skip that step and go directly to the Choosing Stone for its advice.
Also, given their response to Granny, I don't think there's any exclusivity as to who can use the Stone, as given how insular the Pies can be they were too quick to give a positive response to Granny's suggestion to imply it's something they consider exclusive to Rock Ponies, though is obvious it's not something a lot of outsiders to their group know much about.
3497114 I'll bet that each one is a specific kind of rock, with symbolism fitting for the pony's Talent.
I think the birth order is Maud, Limestone, Pinkie, Marble. While Limestone could be the eldest sister, it's unlikely, as her interactions with Pinkie suggest only a slight age gap, and Maud's behavior better fits the big sister role. My personal theory is that Limestone is the Head of the Rock Farm not just because she's the most suited for the job, but because she's the only one who actually wants to. Despite their traditional natures, it's clear that Igneous and Cloudy let their children choose their own paths in life, and no one else is interested in the job. Marble is too shy and submissive to be a leader, at least from what we've seen in the episode, and while Maud is fantastic with rocks, she's apathetic to most things outside of that and her family. Really, Pinkie was the only better choice, as her skills in reality warping, precise organization, and genuine sociability would have led to unquantifiable success for the rock farm. But seeing as that wouldn't have made her as happy as being a party planner does, that option was obviously off the table. Limestone runs the family business not only because of her skill, or the fact that no one else will do it, but because she sees it as her responsibility, and I honestly think she's happy with that. She's rather similar to Applejack in that way, as a responsible, if a bit domineering, middle child who runs the family business, and wouldn't have it any other way.
The writer's answer: the birth order is Limestone, Maud, Pinkie and Marble. A bit to my surprise. I'd assumed Marbles and Limestone were much closer than that, possibly twins.
And Jordan, I love your Pie family as is, including Claire. Please don't change them!
3497475
I might keep the courtship backstory and child birth order I'd already worked out for Cloudy Quartz, while importing other things from show-canon. In particular, the Choosing Stone, and special Stones in general, should be a Rock Pony thing; it makes so much cultural sense that I'm annoyed I didn't think of it. Also, I like the personality given Limestone, and could see how she might sour into it from the personality I previously assumed for her (also extroverted, but cheerful and optimistic rather than caustic, bitter and aggressive). Marble, on the other hand, I always imagined as not merely shy but also gloomy -- what we saw in the episode would be Marble in a happy mood (probably because she noticed that Mac was liking her back).
Basically, I'd keep Limestone the youngest, or perhaps a twin of Marble, but by the time of "Hearthbreakers" she's completed her education and is a full-grown adult, and she's just (within the last few years) realized that she's going to have to run the rock farm, because nopony else among her sisters is going to be available to do this. She wants to be a scientist like Maud, but not only would there be no money for this unless she begged her uncle Pie Chart for a loan, but the family farm would be unsupportable within a decade or two without her: at best her parents would be declining into poverty after having exhausted themselves by supporting their daughters, and Marble would have few prospects. She is facing a likely future of either ruining her family in pursuit of her own ambitions, or becoming an old maid living on the Rock Farm supporting her parents and tending to Marble. Limestone loves her family too much to allow the former situation, but does not exactly appreciate the latter situation.
Part of the reason why she's worried about a lonely and less-than-meaningful life is that the South-Dunnich and Nickerlite area isn't exactly densely populated. There are few eligible stallions and most of them are not emotionally-compatible with her (still less as she becomes embittered); and there's no practical way for her to obtain the education she desires and remain in the area. The closest school for what she wants would be in Canterlot, and that's a many-hours trip from Nickerlite: she can't possibly make the trip often enough and still run the rock farm.
She resents the Apples because they don't have this problem. Big Mac and Applejack have no desire to become highly-educated specialists; Apple Bloom actually does (though Limestone may not know that) but Apple Bloom has money behind her and lives much closer to Canterlot, so there's no reason Apple Bloom can't become an engineer. Having Big Mac -- a handsome, honorable, kind stallion who would make a very good husband -- obviously be attracted to Marble, is just icing on her bitterness cake at this point.
Limestone is not at all evil, but she is being frustrated in both her professional and matrimonial aspirations, and this is doing unpleasant things to her character.
What do you think of that situation, dramatically and logically speaking?
3497749 Sounds totally plausible to me, and I like the idea of incorporating new material without abandoning your old plans.
3496998 A reasonable enough assumption. After all, a fanfic is an alternative universe by definition so canon may be disregarded at the writer's discretion.
All I can say myself is that I was pleased to see a 'quasi-Amish' family portrayed as something other than bumpkins or bigots; and having something like actual individual personalities too! Rather a unique accomplishment for TV.
Though I doubt they will go into the insane nitty-gritty detail you can find among real Pennsylvania German Pietists, with what seems like dozens of different groups each and every one of which with their own highly specific Ordnung. "Naw, we're not like dose Appleloosa Rock Ponies vit dere dunking the fillies and colts vunce dey get dere Cutie Marks. Dey drive dose fancy buggies too and that's choost worldly."
I also wondered if the Pies and other Rock ponies broke off from more mainstream Earth Pony society sometime either shortly before or after Luna's corruption and exile, just by the dialect. Maybe they were even involved somehow?
I enjoyed the essay, and as for poor Limestone, maybe one of the fan writers can set her up with somepony. Maybe she can fall for one of those human Anons. (Kidding! Kidding!)
Ehhh... I think I figured out why I don't like MarbleMac as much as others do. It's rather uncomfortable when Pinkie and AJ are constantly suggesting the possibility of being cousins, and even though if they are related it'd be very distantly, there's a lot of weird implications when you're constantly stressing the family angle in the story but then suggest that they may be crushing on each other. I'm not gonna get onto people for liking the ship, that's their business, but I'm just gonna back out of it and remain in my little fandom bubble like I normally do.
(The only way to fandom is to ignore what everyone else is doing and do your own thing. Unless someone is starting trouble, stay out of other people's business. That's Harmony Rule #23)
3499246
Relations between fifth cousins aren't incestuous. Fifth cousins have common ancestors about a hundred and ten years ago. In most pre-industrial cultures, almost everyone in a small town is related to this degree or closer, and knows it. In many modern cultures, including America and Britain, people not infrequently marry people of this degree of relationship within knowing it. It's a 1/1024th genetic similarity in the variable parts of the DNA. It's trival.
In my fanon, Apple Fritter long had a crush on Big Mac that never went anywhere. She's his third cousin. The reason it never went anywhere had nothing to do with degrees of relationship. The Apples quite frequently marry other Apples who are their second or more distant cousins. Apple Dazzle (aka Apple Bumpkin) is his first cousin and also wanted to marry him. First cousin is close enough to bother him a bit, but only a bit -- the real reason Mackie never acted on it is that she's an airhead.
Which is why Big Mac doesn't see it at all negative that Marble Pie's his fifth cousin. In fact, he sees it as drawing them emotionally closer.
First-cousin marriage is legal in many American states. As far as I know, in no American state is second-cousin marriage illegal, and it would be downright absurd to prohibit fifth-cousin marriage, as most people (including me) can't name any of their fifth cousins!
My OC's White Lightning and Evensong Lightning, the parents of the Lightning Clan mentioned in Fools and Drunks, are first cousins, and long happily married with numerous children. Nopony sees anything strange about this, though some of the family is strange in other ways.
In most rural small towns, you will find some first-cousin and plenty of second-cousin marriages. This is because the whole town is usually related.
3497445
That's obviously Maud's point regarding her poetry as well. It's in part a Friendship Compatibility Test. She doesn't want to waste her time knowing Ponies who don't get that rocks can be different and significant in their differences. She is, after all, a monomaniac, and a GEOLOGIST.
My wife doesn't like people who think of animals as just "generic things," for the same reason. Her obsession is zoology, and she's well aware that animals are individuals and have fascinating differences.
in terms of the discussions of distant relations I can say I know some third cousins but that's because my great grandmother lived with my mother's cousin when i spent a month caring for her and i therefor spent time with that side of the family and got a better connection. It does help that for 3 generations we had the perfect 20 year generation curve for progeny. I even have a picture of 5 generations together. (my gram (great gram), my grandma, my mom, my sis, and my niece)
3499815
And yet even you wouldn't know who all your fifth cousins were, which means that there would be no way to avoid marrying them. Humans have fairly strong instinctive inhibitions against having sex with parents or siblings, weak ones against doing so with first cousins, and few or none against doing so with more distant cousins. There's absolutely no reason to assume that the Ponies are any more inhibited than this, nor -- given the weakness of the genetic similarity -- any reason to consider such an inhibition an advantage.
3499246 In real life, American president Franklin Roosevelt and his wife Eleanor were fifth cousins once removed. Theodore Roosevelt was Eleanor's uncle. They were married for 50 years without any controversy over their union.
3499755
Poptard on the MarbleMac shipping group actually charted it out, using dialogue from Pinkie Apple Pie
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Short form, it's very distant and by marriage, not biologically. You might have to go even further back to find any common ancestor between Pinkie and Applejack (and Big Mac and Marble, by extension)