Agency and Character Development in Crusaders of the Lost Mark · 7:06pm Oct 12th, 2015
So, if you haven’t seen Crusaders of the Lost Mark, what are you even doing on this site instead of watching it right now?
Without any spoilers, my opinions are mixed. I’ve talked to a lot of people about different aspects of it, and even the flaws I saw can be smoothed out in future episodes.
(Except for the pacing. I don’t care what you think of the grand scheme of things, that 22 minutes didn’t offer a second to process what was happening. Everything was “blink and you’ll miss it.” At least Magical Mystery Cure slowed down for Twilight's visit to the Dimension of Episode Clips, and Slice of Life gave us some quality time with Gummy.)
I want to talk about one of those fixable but present flaws today, specifically related to agency and character development.
More below the cut, eventually with spoilers for Crusaders of the Lost Mark, which you are going to have to see, so go do it already.
A character’s agency is basicly their ability to decide how they will act based on their own goals. This can be limited physically, by capturing or imprisoning them (whether it’s for their own good or not) or mentally, by indicating that they’re under the influence or orders of someone else. This is a sliding scale:
* A mind-controlled zombie has no agency.
* A prisoner might have limited agency in terms of cooperating or trying to escape.
* A character dedicated to a person or a group obviously has the agency to choose to adhere to that, but the more they’re shown considering each action and whether they really want to follow that person or group, the more agency they’re shown to have.
* A character that makes their decisions on their own and takes full responsibility for their own actions is showing complete agency; they are the only one who decides how they act.
Agency makes a character more interesting to the audience, because the more agency we see from a character the more we know who they are. You’ll never know anything about that mind-controlled zombie except maybe through things that reflect who they were before they were a mind-controlled zombie, back when they had agency. But even when it comes to a character who’s heavily influenced by another character, the more they’re passively following orders, the less we know about who they really are and how they would have handled the situation on their own.
(Brief aside: I need to note that when people originally came up with the phrase “strong female characters” they were not talking about number of leather body suits owned or how many guys they’d kicked in the balls; they were talking about agency. Traditionally a lot of female characters have gotten captured by the bad guy or acted as a loyal extension of a male character, meaning no matter how badass they seemed we never really got to know their character or how they would have acted on their own. The request for more strong female characters in media can be read as a request for more female character that show agency: disobey orders when it makes sense, come up with the plans without being told, and have their own goal that they act towards, which makes them stronger characters even if they’re physically weak or deeply flawed.)
Now, not all characters need agency, and sometimes the lack of agency says important things about the character. But that’s something that depends a lot on their place in the story. Characters without agency are usually either pawns or back-up for characters with agency, or they’re there to learn to show agency through the story (or fail to do so in a sad story or tragedy.) Stories need those things from time to time.
One way a lack of agency is often used is to make reform of a villain quick and easy. It’s a cheat code: It wasn’t really their fault, <other force> made them like this. So they don’t need to see why they were wrong, they just need to see that <other force> was wrong and reject it. (Then they get to angst about why they chose to be under the influence of <other force> and how bad they feel, without anyone actually blaming them for anything specific they did.)
You may recognize this as “the Luna arc.” Luna’s is handled slightly better than usual by making her take responsibility for what she did to become Nightmare Moon, but no one is going to bring up that time she tried to kill her sister. That was Nightmare Moon who did that. Luna never needed to be redeemed (at least, no more than she was by being blasted with rainbows,) she just needs to relax and let go and Say No to Evil Spirits. But that means that we have no idea if Luna, herself, was capable of trying to kill Celestia, or if Luna ever thought eternal night was a good idea. Luna’s character is fuzzier than it would be because we don’t know where Luna left off and Nightmare Moon started.
Compare this to Sunset Shimmer or Discord. Both of them had agency the whole time; their past actions, including trying to take over the world, are part of who they are before and after their reform. They need to deal with those things and earn the trust of people or ponies they hurt. Sunset Shimmer needs to save the school to get kids to trust her after the whole “she-demon” incident. Discord earned Fluttershy’s trust easily, but he’s still not trusted to fully get the whole “friendship thing” (even Fluttershy doesn’t think he’s ready for a throne in the castle.) Sunset Shimmer and Discord are stronger, more distinct characters than Luna, and part of the reason for that is that we can connect all of their actions to their own agency.
Which brings us to the problem with Diamond Tiara and last week’s episode. Remember how I said that taking away the villain’s agency was a quick and easy way to reform them at the expense of their character?
This is a pony with some amount of agency:
Throughout the episode, she teases Apple Bloom about having to do embarrassing stuff with Granny Smith. Though, as a kid, she doesn’t have the agency to refuse to do embarrassing stuff with Granny Smith if her dad insists, she is going to resist with all the agency that she has and everyone is going to know how she feels about it. We know who Diamond Tiara is and what she wants in this scene.
This is a pony without agency:
This scene implies that Diamond Tiara doesn’t have agency, she never really had agency, she was acting in line with what her mother demanded. Then she sings a whole song that can be summed up as “I wish I had some agency.”
Now, I’m not saying this is a continuity error, it’s entirely possible that everything we’ve seen of Diamond Tiara so far is based on her mother’s influence. We can even gel that with Filthy not being entirely in line with that idea, maybe his wife is more of an asshole, or not as good at business, and she holds more influence over Diamond Tiara.
What I’m saying is that we now know less about Diamond Tiara than we did before. Removing her agency leaves us in the dark about who she really is and what she would have done. Apparently she has no problem with blank flanks when she has agency. Would she blackmail ponies to get what she wants? Would she print Gabby Gums at all? Would she tease Scoots about not being able to fly? Does she care about wearing bunny ears to make Zap Apple Jam? When Diamond Tiara had agency, we knew these things. Now… who can say?
Keep in mind, also: there was no character growth other than her gaining agency. There’s no textual reason to believe that what she does after rejecting her mother isn’t what she would have been doing all along if her mother had never existed. Sunset Shimmer and (especially) Discord were presented to us as assholes who had to learn that they wanted to change, then learn that they could change in the face of not just their own questions but the questions of everyone around them about that. Diamond Tiara apparently always wanted to change, so inside she was already not the character we saw.
There was absolutely no time in the episode for that, so they fell back on the quick and easy asshole eraser. Which is a shame, because it makes her character weaker and more fuzzy, rather than more complex.
Now, depending on how they move forward, they could make her more complex by showing us that some aspects of her previous character were part of her own agency. Maybe she really does think Zap Apple Jamming is embarrassing, maybe she really is hyper-competitive, even if those are explained by her mom they can still be part of her, the same way similar things are part of Rarity and Rainbow Dash. Maybe she has to unlearn, or learn to tone down those things, before she’s really a good friend. There’s a lot of potential, if that’s the direction they go.
But Crusaders of the Lost Mark really did a disservice to Diamond Tiara’s character in the name of cramming her reform into an episode that was already over stuffed. It was like if they had tried to do Keep Calm and Flutter On as the first ten minutes of Magical Mystery Cure. I don’t think it was the best choice, but until we see where they’re going, I know there are already fanfic writers working the clean up the mess and redevelop Diamond Tiara’s character..
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I'll admit your points are valid, but really, I'm just excited that it's now socially acceptable to like Diamond Tiara.
I feel that it did the opposite of what you said. It evolved her past being a whiny spoiled brat that had no character development aside from where she was beaten and just growled because she lost to 'stupid blank flanks'. This however gives her more character due to the fact that she was RAISED with those beliefs. I've had friends who went through the same thing with a parent raising them to think one thing is wrong and ALWAYS wrong. Anybody who thinks otherwise is an idiot and a moron. So no her jack ass of a mother is not half-assed. If anything it's one of the most real world villains the show has put out and it's not like they can friendship beam her to death or anything.
3464861
So, if it came up in the next episode, and Ponyville Confidential had never happened, would Diamond Tiara print Gabby Gums? What evidence in the show can you point to to argue for or against that?
Because prior to this episode, I could have used every other time we've seen her to make a pretty accurate prediction.
3464874 Simple. Since her mother influenced her more she grew to think that she HAD to be in charge as she was not only from a rich family but also had a cutie mark herself. So therefore she felt it was her privilege to print Gabby Gums even if it hurt others it would raise her status. Just how mother would have done it.
3464878
I said next episode. Is it now in character for her to print Gabby Gums or not?
3464881 I was just doing Ponyville Confidential.
3464861
3464874
I think what VampDash is trying to get at is that prior to this episode, Diamond Tiara was just as two-dimensional as she is now.
I mean, what was her role in episodes really? To be the typical schoolyard bully. To my knowledge, that's all the purpose she's ever served, to give the crusaders somepony to feel angsty over.
Children are shaped by the world they grow up in, it seems to me, perhaps Diamond Tiara lived more with her mother than her father. Either way, I do see how her redemption is a bit half-assed. The way I see it there's a difference between wanting to change and seeing the need to change, and what DT went through was the former, while Sunset Shimmer has gone through the latter.
3464888 Thank you.
3464886
Please read what I said.
In future episodes, we no have no context for how she will act. Her character is a blank slate.
I used that as an example, but let's go with another one. Say next episode, Diamond TIara has the chance to get the lead in a school play, but she knows Sweetie Belle wants it.
I can make an argument as to what she would do, if Crusaders of the Lost Mark had never existed.
Can you now make a stronger argument about what she will do? What drives her? What she cares about and doesn't care about?
3464888
The problem is that now she isn't a school bully, she is a blank slate. She's zero dimensional until we get some new character development.
3464908 Okay now that she's moved on from her mother it's obvious SOME traits will linger, she grew up and was heavily influenced by her obviously, but she will try and restrain those urges. Naturally at times they will pop up and such as the moment you mentioned she will most likely still WANT the roll but try and do it without resorting to cruder tactics but once in a while one of those ideas may happen. Her drive in this case would be to prove that she has changed. She cares for her new friends and doesn't want to ruin this chance she has with them. She would hate her past self which would extend to bullies in general but again would try to restrain herself from going back to her old crude 2 Dimensional self.
3464933
Please cite some evidence of this from canon, otherwise it's your headcanon. How do we know that her drive would be to prove she's changed? How do we know she hates all of her past tactics? We've seen characters like Rainbow Dash use some pretty questionable tactics, how do we know Diamond Tiara isn't the type of pony who would cheat?
I'm not saying she is, I'm saying we don't know who she is.
3464933 I think the issue here is that you're HOPING that will happen, but we don't KNOW it's going to happen. That's what bookplayer is saying, if I have it right. The show will probably go in that direction with DT, but at this point, her character is up in the air until more character is established.
3464951 Yeah we do. A child who was raised to be this way through abusive parents. If something like this happened with say Rainbow or Rarity then this wouldn't be a problem but since it's Diamond Tiara it feels people don't want that and seem to want her to stay the two dimensional bitch she is. Again from what I've seen that's how it feels.
3464960 Not hoping honestly. I've read the character and that's most likely what will happen due to this new episode.
3464960
Thank you.
I just wanted to pop in long enough to say that I'm one of those folks who refers to it as "the Twilight Zone".
3464917
Oh yeah, I totally agree with that. But it seems we'll have to wait for Season 6 for that.
It's like when Sleepless in Ponyville aired, I couldn't wait for a follow up episode going into depth Scoots and Rainbow's new sisterhood but... nope, aside from references, I'm still waiting...
Er... canon Luna still refers to it as her mistake. I'm not saying that you're wrong in your point on agency—I can certainly see what you're getting at and I agree wholeheartedly—but with regards to Luna, she's owned that she messed up since she returned, to the point that she essentially engaged in self-flagellation with the creation of the Tantibus. Unless, of course, you're speaking in regards to the comics (which turned the Nightmare into a parasite of sorts) or the fics that turn Luna into some sort of woobie. In that case, yes, I can see your point and agree. However, in regards to her episodes, she's still a pretty strong character. Hell, each of her appearances to the CMC in their dream realms hold nods to "don't make the mistakes I once did"—she's teaching a new generation by using herself as an example of what not to do.
That's pretty damn strong a character, if you ask me.
3464997
I was just thinking in terms of how we've seen Luna six times on the show, and she's had four different personalities. Edit: Five personalities, counting Nightmare Moon.
3464964 Look at it this way: Snips and Snails are dumbasses. I can count on them screwing things up. It's who they are. Now, what if in the season finale they are shown as breaking out of some weird unicorn spell and they go on to help the CMC finish off a bad guy. During the fight, we see that they are similar to how they were, but not exactly. They seem a little smarter and more useful.
Well, who are they now? Was their dumbassness just because they were forced to act like that? Instead of KNOWING they are clumsy and dumb, now I have to WONDER if they are clumsy or dumb. It's nothing that can't get filled in later, but I actively know less about them RIGHT NOW than I did before.
That's where we are with Diamond Tiara.
3465005
We've seen her meek immediately after her return and second attempt at murder/insurrection—logical, I'd think, given that she's been reverted to a rather weak looking form and is left in the remnants of... well... herself, while staring up at her sister.
Then we saw her dealing (poorly) with ponies' fear that she was Nightmare Moon and basically living in the past. She's about 1000 years out of touch, I think we can spot her this one.
Then we saw her transition to a teaching/supportive role with the CMC in their dreams and Twilight Sparkle in "Princess Twilight Sparkle".
Then we saw the full extent of her remorse—just how far into "I screwed up and nearly ruined everything" she really went.
Luna is a side character, we don't get to see a lot of why she goes through these emotional steps. We only see her when they become an issue or when she steps in to help—which is pretty much what a side/support character is for. Hell, she doesn't even live in Ponyville, so there's even less reason for us to see her go through the progression unless the show does a few Celestia and Luna centric episodes (though, to be fair, I would LOVE that quite a bit). So... I'd say we've seen her pop in and out as her character has grown. Nothing wrong with that.
Discord, on the other hand, has gone from evil to reluctant friend to evil-but-still-your-friend to evil again then back to evil-but-still-your-friend. Does this mean we're seeing him go through a revolving door of personalities? No. It means he's struggling to adapt. Much like Luna, but in a different way. He's struggling to change his ways, but still keep the fun of causing a little bit of chaos here and there. And he is slowly getting better at it.
Sunset Shimmer, honestly, I am behind you one hundred percent on. But here's the thing: after EqG1 where she had no character other than "LOOK AT HOW EVIL I AM!!!!!!!", she's become a central character to the movie akin to what Twilight Sparkle is in MLP:FiM. We get to see her as one of the main focuses whenever the movie comes on—which is something we don't get with Luna, Discord, or even Diamond Tiara.
I was going to write this exact blog post, but you beat me to it.
Thank you.
Agency is a super important concept which I think frequently gets overlooked when we talk about writing, but understanding which characters have agency - and what agency means - is vital to a story.
This was one of my two huge problems with this episode - taking away her agency sucked, especially given that she had tons of agency previously. She was a very assertive, confident, competent, if manipulative and sadistic pony, and that was fun. It was fine for her to be taught to be a better pony, but it should be her accepting it as a person, and coming to understand it on her own terms and grow because of her own realizations, even if they are spurred on by others. Discord's reform in the season 4 finale felt much more authentic than his reform in season 3 (when he wasn't actually reformed so much as temporarily somewhat tamed) because we saw why it was that he changed - it hurt him to betray Fluttershy, the only pony he really cared about, and Twilight's generosity coupled with his own hurt at being betrayed himself by someone he had thought was his friend made him recognize what friendship and kindness really meant. It was a good reiteration of the show's themes.
As a non-pony example, David Xanatos was a very selfish, self-serving guy in Gargoyles, but over the course of the series he becomes a better person (and is revealed to be a better person than we at first thought he was) because he is put into situations which force him to recognize that his selfishness is a weakness and that by being a bit more selfless he can ironically actually be a happier and better person, which is better for his own self-interest.
3464917
Why is that a problem? I thought you were dissatisfied with the episode in part because of its pacing, trying to cram too much into 22 minutes. This feels to me instead like the natural flow of character progression: prior episodes showed her as personality A (schoolyard bully), CotLM resets her personality, and it's left to future episodes to show what she'll become. That's the definition of not cramming too much into one episode. I read Luna the same way, and Twilight as well. I'd have been far less satisfied with CotLM if they tried to establish and demonstrate an entirely new personality for DT during the episode. As it is, it leaves me looking forward to seeing what becomes of her, and that's a successful episode in my book. No pun intended.
3465041
Well... actually there kind of is, because it makes those gaps filled in by headcanon, which means you're imagining a stronger, more consistent character than they're showing. For example, a lot of people didn't like Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep because they'd assumed that Luna was past that, judging by her previous appearances. Most of what we know about Luna's growth is assumed.
She does have her angst as a central character point, but there's never been any accountability by other characters for that. In Luna Eclipsed she doesn't need to show that she's not going to kill anyone, she has to show that she's willing to have fun. She never shows how she's grown, they tell us and we fill it in with fanon.
Discord, on the other hand, we see growing. In Keep Calm he decided he'll be good "most of the time." Then in both Princess Twilight Sparkle and Three's a Crowd we see him stick to that, not being evil but still being annoying. Then in Twilight's Kingdom we see him tempted away from that and achieve real redemption, and in Make New Friends But Keep Discord he's acting perfectly in line with that, with friendship being the most important thing to him even if he's not good at it. We've seen Discord's character develop in exactly the same number of episodes Luna has had, but her goals and challenges have all been stuff we need to assume.
3464888
She wasn't two-dimensional, though. Look at her in Ponyville Confidential or Flight to the Finish. She's cunning and ambitious. She picks on the Cutie Mark Crusaders, sure - but she has a purpose behind her maliciousness. She likes hurting people - she's a sadist - but as we see in those two episodes, she often has a reason for the things she does.
And she's competent. In Ponyville Confidential, she has a good eye for the kinds of stories that will increase the paper's circulation. For all her "evil", she's actually good at what she is doing. Sure, what she is doing isn't "good" in the sense that it isn't nice, but she is "giving the people what they want", sends out a staff photographer who does a great job with his work, and recognizes the CMC's talents and is actually nice to them and encouraging when they're doing what she wants.
She may have been "evil", but that didn't mean she was a flat character.
3465037 .... OH! Okay that what you mean. Okay that makes sense.
3465097
3465089 pretty much summed up why it was unsatisfying. I don't think they should have crammed a new personality into this episode, I think that her growth should have taken a more Discord/Sunset Shimmer path, building on her old personality. The episode excused (as far as we know) all of her old personality as the fault of her mother, a problem that's now "fixed."
3465119
I literally just cited what she did in episodes they showed. There was incredibly little headcanon involved in my response—in fact, the only mention of any headcanon here is:
... in your own reply.
Assuming that Luna is passed "I messed up". Literally every episode she has been in save for ACW and MMC has held some nod to her past mistakes. I would say that's enough hint to suggest her fall to her jealousy and rage.
I'm just gonna stop here. Not dealing with an argument where you take single lines out of context to make a point and then try to pass off broad summaries of her appearances (very broad) in canon as headcanon. Have a good one.
Edit: mistyped "Twilight's Kingdom" when I meant her appearance in MMC. Fixed.
3465154
Correct me if I am wrong.
You are saying: Luna has a stable character, and the differences in her episodes can be attributed to growth. This growth has taken place off screen for the most part, but if we assume that it did it makes these aspects of her character consistent.
I am saying: Nightmare Moon, meek Luna, fish-out-of-water Luna, in control dream ruler Luna, and self-flagellating Luna are inconsistent personalities. This inconsistency can be explained, but any explanation is extrapolation from hints because we didn't actually see that growth take place in episodes. The only episode where she starts as one of those characters and ends as another is the pilot.
On the other hand, Discord's growth actually takes place in episodes: in Keep Calm he moves from evil Discord to not-good Discord, and in Twilight's Kingdom he moves from not-good Discord to evil-Discord to good-but-flawed-Discord. He starts those episodes one way, and ends them another.
Are we on the same page?
I think people are underestimating the voting scene. I don't see Diamond Tiara as losing her agency in this episode so much as she sees her agency lead her to rock bottom. The filly who was able to get rousing applause by promising gymnastics and then making her poor old butler do it for her didn't get a single vote, not even from her best friend. She lost everything she believed gave a pony their worth: popularity.
I also think it's way too convenient for people to blame her mother for all her actions, whether in support of DT's characterization or against it. You can't convince me she ran to her mother for approval of every word she said, decision she made, or action she took. She made her choices, and she was all set to make them again during the chase song. Diamond Tiara did and still does have agency to me.
3465089 You can break Agency into two ideas which most people can follow better: Free Will and Independence. (Honstly, I had never heard Agency used for this before) Free Will defines the amount of influence other people/ponies have on a character's decision process (Standard Tropes: Jewish Mothers, Henpecked Husbands, Cult Followers) and Independence defines the ability of a character to act on their decisions (Standard Tropes: Soldier, In Debt To The Company, Corporate Drone, Japanese Executive, Solitary Confinement).
Frequently in real life you will find peope who *have* the opportunity to do great things, but their mental ability to break free of their self-imposed restrictions is somewhat limited. Lottery winners tend to their new Independence by letting their decision-making process go wild, and frequently are right back at the starting line in a few years. The little boxes that we put ourselves inside are the greatest threat to our happiness.
After all, who among us has not heard that little voice whisper "Screw it all. Take your credit card and grab the first flight to Cancun. Spend the rest of your life as a beachcomber."
(Normally followed by a much louder voice⁽¹⁾ stating "...and starve to death after the first week. Now shut up and finish this project report by tomorrow, or you'll be eating out of a dumpster.")
(1) I can neither confirm nor deny the rumor that my wife has this voice.
It strikes me how easily you could improve the episode just by removing her mother from the plot. All the pieces for a redemption were already in place, and there was a perfectly channel for sympathy building in her friendship with Silver Spoon. So much so that I'm not entirely sure why they bothered including the character in the first place.
3465263
Agency is also defined by "does what you do matter?" If a character's actions have no consequence on the outcome of events, then they can be said to have no agency - this is a very important point in video game design, for instance. But it is also important in some stories - hammering home the idea of hopelessness is when a character's actions don't actually make any difference. The Cough takes advantage of this, for instance, with the notion of futility.
So, basically:
Is the character in control of their own actions? (The Princess is told by the king to go wait in her room, and has to do so, because he's her dad.)
Is the character capable of independent action? (The Princess is grabbed in the Standard Female Grab Area by the guards and is unable to resist being taken off to her room.)
Do the character's actions change the outcome at all? (The Princess convinces the guards to take her to the dungeon, which is more heavily fortified than that spindly tower; the castle is then struck by a meteor, killing everyone regardless of their location.)
Depicting Diamond Tiara's attitude as being entirely because of her mother deprives her of agency and cheapens her as a person, as it implies she has no independence, despite the fact that we'd seen her frequently take independent action in the past. It is both inconsistent characterization AND a denial of a character's agency.
3465260
The thing is, the episode depicted Diamond Tiara's attitude as being entirely because of her mother. Once she rejected her mother, she instantly changed.
This is because of bad writing, not because people are misunderstanding the episode. Her mother being an overbearing jerk is not a bad thing, but the fact that her rejecting her mother made it so that she was suddenly a "good guy" denied her agency and was out of character, because she did all sorts of things that showed a great deal of independence previously (like running the school paper). It didn't logically hang together, but that was what the episode was doing.
You said this much better than I did, bookplayer, when I tried to elucidate my issues with Diamond's sudden change from active antagonist to passive victim.
3465275
They wouldn't even have needed to remove the mother; if Diamond Tiara has a bad role model at home, that doesn't deny her agency, and it still gives us some clues to what kind of person (pony) she is. If Tiara learns from watching the way her mother acts that belittling those you perceive to be beneath you is right and proper, and then decides that's not who she wants to be in the episode... well, it's right there in the words learn and decide. It's that the mother is specifically telling her what to say, and what to believe, that causes problems. Though I agree that they could have cut the mother, and that that would have solved the problem, too.
0thly, you are not wrong, but this is how I reconcile her character and personality:
If we figure that most of watch she did is what she chose, but her believes influence her actions:
Her mother taught her that rich ponies are better than poor ponies and that blank flanks are inferior. She acted on that belief. She could have realized that her believes are wrong. I have seen this is teenaged racists realizing that the racism of their parents are wrong (they go from attacking homosexuals and dark skinned people to protecting them and trying to be their friends). I also seen this in religious people realizing that no evidence exists for gods:
They are smug and convinced that they will go to heaven and 99% of the population will burn in hell. After realizing that no evidence exists for gods, they realize that they are not chosen and that 99% of people are not idiots, refusing to see the light, who doom themselves to eternal torment.
The way I reconcile the character of Diamond Tiara, is not as an agentless puppet, but as somepony who has agency, but acts on false believes. She is similar to those killing the unbelievers in the name of their gods who honestly believe that they do good.
As to the pacing, the show is only 22:30 minutes. With intros and outros, that is only 20 minutes. If Amy Keating Rogers would have had more to to work on the script, the pacing would be better, but, considering that she had only 1 episode for giving the CMC their CutieMarks, I see no way this episode would not be a bit rushed.
3464881
Awww
I will sound off on this, as I've written a Tiara redemption that passed muster with you and deeply moved a bunch of ponies: I had a lot more time to work on it, which was a big help. I picked a particular model, which applies here but only as one possible explanation, which subsequent episodes may or may not honor.
That model is someone abusing drugs or alcohol who hits a breaking point ('hits bottom') and changes their life.
Up to when she sees an alternative way to live, it makes NO difference whether Tiara would like to be different. It's not on offer! She's completely surrounded by cold, withholding, judgemental authority figures (for whatever reason: I don't like the canon Tiaramom, she's a comicbook villain with no depth) and therefore Tiara has no conception of being any different, ever. That's just life. She's good at it because she has to be, perhaps resents the ponies that seem to live in a whole other world that's nicer, but it only drives her viciousness as she wants to punish them for having what she can't have. And she's certainly not going to show weakness.
The breaking point is when she loses a valuable ally (Spoon, both in canon and my story) and then is presented with support from an unexpected quarter (Apple Bloom, or all three CMCs in canon). Given time you can show her fighting fiercely to not give up her deathgrip on her familiar worldview, but they didn't feel like giving her that time so they gave her a song lampshading how badly she needs a change.
Then, the actual break is her rejecting the old worldview and stepping into, not 'the new niceness', but THE UNKNOWN. She has to be so desperate that she'll jump without knowing where she'll land, or even if she will. It has to be worth it to change your whole life and give something else a try. In canon, she has already lost her friend AND the job as class president, and her Mom is openly contemptuous of her and hates her for her failure. She's utterly blown it and her worst fear has come to pass and it's true, Mom does hate her for failing, has no sympathy at all.
So she jumps, even though she has no idea what to do or how the new world will work. She has nothing left. And the CMCs are there for her, pleading for her to change her life, but not until she hits bottom will she jump over to the other team.
Will she still want to publish Gabby Gums?
HELL yes she will!
She's not changed a bit, she's just changed sides. Her MO doesn't fit with the CMCs at all. She's ruthless, her cutie mark is for being royalty and getting others to obey her, she's got her Dad wrapped around her little hoof and she's now at odds with the Mom who previously set the tone for her behavior. She will NOT suddenly be sweetness and light, no way.
She will be filled with terror that she'll lose these new friends, having now learned that can happen to you: she will be impossible to reassure because the new world simply won't devote itself to constantly appeasing her fears of further rejection, and you'll only see that blubbery-eyed Tiara WHILE she is actually breaking down and ready to do something drastic. She is deeply used to manipulating others and that hasn't changed, heck she's just asserted a new dominant position through using her Dad! She will react badly to ponies suggesting her new identity isn't perfection, and to suggest she's back to the old Tiara means saying 'you are the failed pony your Mom rejected and scolded publically. That's still you'.
This opens up all the doors in Equestria for interestingly writing Tiara. She is now a fish out of water, with all her old tricks but they're completely inappropriate to the world she wants to latch onto, NEEDS to latch onto, MUST latch onto. There will be fireworks and Diamond will disgrace herself, probably repeatedly, and will make enemies even worse than before, but without that brittle sense of superiority that she was a winner like Mom. And she'll be VICIOUS when she feels her grip on the new world get away from her.
And, all the same, with brave and loving support, she'll get through all this and learn to be a good pony (and probably always a very striking character with a flair for ruling the roost).
I'm shy of writing more Tiara, because folks seemed to be so proud of mine making the jump that they can't bear to see her blow it. But it's just the same. Tiara could blow at any seam, but she can't go back now, so if she turns into a monster again she must get over it and make amends, otherwise she'll be really devastated. She'd make an excellent Big Bad, should she falter, because Mom won't forgive her for what she did: she's undermined Mom horribly.
3465322
I agree entirely. My inclination to remove rather than fix the character are more because of parsimony plus limited space. (Or, if you like, why introduce a new character when (a) you don't need to, and (b) the episode is already too full?)
DT's home life almost certainly is relevant to her character, though. If we had a larger canvas to play with -- if the production teams could give us three-parters -- I'd be all behind exploring her relationship with both her parents (what is Filthy Rich's influence on his daughter's actions?) and her friendship with Silver Spoon.
3465321
Did she change because she rejected her mother, or did she reject her mother because she changed? She made her decision before the confrontation at the school house.
And rejecting her mother didn't make her a good guy. Her getting the money for the playground combined with her efforts to get everything in order did that.
It does hang together logically.
DT loses her popularity and her only friend>>>DT is chastised by her mother, making her wonder what could be different>>>CMC offer their hooves in friendship>>>DT overhears an opportunity to get back to the way things were>>>CMC point out she has a chance to make things different now>>>DT decides to make things different.
Whether or not it sticks is still in the air, but the motivation, opportunity, and timing for change--for a character to exercise agency and take their arc in a new direction--are all there.
3465320 Yes, but sometimes you need to make a futile and stupid gesture that doesn't really affect the end result of events. (This would be a High Free Will/Low Independence case)
3465275 The mother is there to offload the "Bad" from Diamond Tiara and put it on a character who won't interact with DT's peer group, thus allowing DT to be accepted more easily. i.e. DT's not a (censored) because she's a (censored), it's because her mother made her act this way, so we can play with her now and buy her little plastic toys with brushable manes. (oops, did I say that out loud?)
3465321 Remember the target audience, and multiply by the age of the character. Somtimes little kids can be royal PITAs on their own, and sometimes their harridan mothers push them into roles. Generally, kids can change their behavior a lot easier than wrinkled, old people who are in college or even more ancient institutions. (snerk)
3465408
Her characterization in the episode was inconsistent with her characterization in previous episodes. That's the fundamental problem.
Here, she was presented as a 2D character who was only doing what she did because her mom told her to act that way.
Previously, she had been presented as a competent, intelligent filly who was quite aggressive and bossy and used to getting what she want, with a sadistic streak. She was depicted as doing what she did because she liked hurting Apple Bloom and the other CMC. It was fun to her. It wasn't the sort of snooty "We don't associate with those sorts" but rather a very aggressive, personal, in your face thing. And moreover, it wasn't even the fact that they were blank flanks - she just didn't like them. She called them blank flanks because it hurt, not because it actually mattered. When it didn't work anymore, she made fun of Scootaloo for being a cripple.
But when she was mean to them, she always had a reason for it, whether it was her personal sadistic satisfaction (some of the earlier episodes), social standing/putting them in their place (again, the earlier episodes), or to make them do what she wanted (Ponyville Confidential, Flight to the Finish). It wasn't consistent with extrinsic parental pressure.
3465433
It absolutely was.
From Light of Your Cutie Mark:
You don't even know me at all/Don't understand the meaning of my fall/What my family would think if I ever failed at anything
And later: Whatever I have to do to win in the end.
She always had an objective. Whether it was making sure she looked better in front of the entire town at her party, turning the Foal Free Press into a successful operation, or representing Ponyville in front of all of Equestria, she had a reason to put them down and put herself in the winner's circle.
So to go along with her familial motivation for being bossy, aggressive, and intelligent, I fail to see how sadism for sadism's sake is any better.
3465508
Many people are intrinsically sadistic. Many people - most people - like seeing their enemies get humiliated or take a fall. That's sadism.
There are plenty of good people who are sadistic. The important thing is that recognizing other things are more important than seeing people you don't like being in pain.
Telling people sadism is bad simply makes people deny their sadism while still engaging in it. Explaining why sadism is bad so people don't give in to their sadistic tendencies, instead behaving in more socially acceptable ways, is far better, because then they understand that sadistic impulses don't make you a bad person, what makes you bad is giving in to them. If everyone hates you because you actually hurt people to make yourself feel better, you're going to be in a bad place yourself.
As someone who was a big fan of Diamond Tiara, this episode really really dissapointed me D=
And yes, it was for pretty much the reasons listed here(plus some more, but I guess we can come back to that later)
Yeah, I kinda agree. Ten seconds after meeting her mother, I thought, "Well that explains alot." but I can agree that it kind of crippled the character of her that we know/knew. On the other hand, given the crazy short time given for the episode, I think they could have done it alot worse. I'm not saying this is fair, but if I had to have any pony lose agency, I'd be fine with it being DT. Could it have been done without 180-ing her character as we know her? Yes. In 22 minutes? If it was solo focused on her, probably. But as we stand, I feel the same as I did with Magical Mystery Cure, one episode wasn't long enough for what changes we got, but I think this handled things better than MMC.
On the subject of agency and characterization, the issue of 'what is her character' and 'how will she act' being unknown is something I think is good. How will she act? Will she be a saint? Will she still have reservations after she has her friend back? Is this the change she wanted? We don't know. And that is compelling. I didn't like it when Discord was reformed in one episode. It felt unreal. But his heel turn in Twilight's Kingdom and then his second 'redemption' sat much better with me. I hope to see Diamond in the same situation. Where she wants to be good, but still has imprints from her mother to work out. Probably not gonna get it since she's only been around to serve as the antagonist for the CMC, but you never know.
So I can have to agree with the loss of agency for Diamond Tiara, but I like to see it as a chance to learn of her 'new' agency. We saw who we thought she was, but it wasn't her. So who is she? I dunno, but I'd be happy to find out.
You do acknowledge later that not having agency can say things about a character, which is good, but where I parted ways with you completely was this:
I am of the opinion that this is literally backwards. She's showing enormous agency in that scene. In fact, I'd say that scene is directly showing us the logical basis for the character we have already been shown previously. Diamond Tiara is afraid of losing her mother's approval – it's right there on her face. We get to see what she actually wants in the world (although it was pretty easy to guess beforehand), and we therefore know exactly how far she's been willing to go to get it. In fact, considering the character traits we do know, it's really the only way things could have been shown, because anything else would have been inconsistent and thus arbitrary. I've had many conversation in the past where I've said this must, necessarily, be the case, save a truly extraordinary bit of plot.
To categorize her pre-episode agency, I'd say it was 'A prisoner might have limited agency in terms of cooperating or trying to escape'.
In the episode, she transitioned to 'A character dedicated to a person or a group obviously has the agency to choose to adhere to that, but the more they’re shown considering each action and whether they really want to follow that person or group, the more agency they’re shown to have'. What made no sense is why she snapped and changed direction so suddenly. It's not a reasonable progression from one to the next – it's arbitrary.
DT's lack of agency defined her place in the world. Her arbitrarily-handled ascent into agency stripped her of that internal consistency and failed to replace it with anything beyond 'because plot said so'.
Which leads us to:
Same problem, but I think you have the polarity reversed.
3465733
I think we agree and you're misunderstanding me.
I think you miss my point. In that scene she doesn't have agency-- she thinks she can't change anything. She sings a song about not being able to change anything a minute later. That's lack of agency.
This episode reinterpreted her character which was, as 3465433 put it:
...As someone who has never had any agency, even when she did those things. But since she never had any agency, we don't know how New Diamond Tiara Now With Agency ever felt about anything she said or did.
It wasn't arbitrary, the show is saying (in the song) that this is what she has secretly wanted all along. That she didn't change, this was inside her all along and blocked by her mother (i.e. lack of agency) and now the CMC have taught her she can change (have agency) so now she is free to be... whatever she secretly always was. Which apparently buys playground equipment.
I'm totally on-board with the importance of agency, and how invoking the mean mom trope was a cheat to justify the heel-face turn in 22 minutes. That said, I have to respectfully disagree with bookplayer and TD and others on the magnitude of the lack of agency, and of the harm this did to her character. What parts of DT were her mother, and which parts are still her? I concede that we are in a bit of a cliffhanger here—the now what of Discord at the end of Keep Calm or Twilight at the end of MMC—but I feel like the show has provided us with enough context clues to hint where it's going.
We know from DT's prior appearances that she feels a need to be the center of attention (e.g. serving as editor of the paper, getting her butler to perform for the class). She bullies the CMC relentlessly. There is undeniably an element of sadism here (Scoots-can't-fly pretty much cements her there), but notice when she bullies them. She busts out the ableist jabs when the CMC are clearly poised to win Harshwhinney's contest. She blackmails the CMC when they're poised to torpedo her school paper. She ensnares them when they're revealed to be students of Twilight, ensuring that she remains relevant as the class's gatekeeper to Twilight Time. Part of this is making sure that blank flanks don't shine brighter than her, but part of it is also that she must shine brightest. And of course, through all this, she is shown to be very effective at manipulating others, both positively (Cheerilee, Silver Spoon, Filthy Rich) and negatively (the CMC).
What do we see at the end of the episode, after she kicks her mom to the curb? She makes herself the center of attention, by fixating on how she is reformed because she got new school equipment and she is leading the construction from prominent positions (atop the schoolhouse steps, atop the slide). The whole 'blank flanks are inferior' bit was entirely her mother's negative influence, true. But as soon as the CMC showed her the value of friends, what does she do? Proudly proclaim the CMC as her friends, mend fences (literally) with Silver Spoon, and sweet-talk everypony who she blackmailed at the start of the episode. She is amassing a valuable commodity, one which boosts her own perceived self-worth and power, and which in her own words "[gets] other ponies to do what [she] want". She's reformed because she is no longer a bully, but she is absolutely the same pony.
The CMC back this up, too. The narrative heavily suggests that they are the voice of reason this episode, given the point of the episode is that they are insightful into the talents of others. So when the CMC are singing in unison in Light of Your Cutie Mark, and then suddenly split into harmony, I took notice:
Not "and therefore you are evil." There's a better way. They recognize these strong traits in DT, and point to the possibility that they can be used for good. Forget the mom; like 3465275 says, she could've been written out. This is all DT here, controlling her agency.
It is true that there are some open questions about who DT is, but I'd argue that these are interesting questions that New DT needs to explore about herself. Does she still have a sadistic side? I would personally hope "yes" so that Scootabuse isn't brushed under the rug conveniently, but there is not enough evidence for or against. And now that DT values friendship, which does she value more: friendship, or her own importance? But that could be a very interesting episode! Like, what if the CMC invite DT to participate in this fun event, but she also has an opportunity to promote her own importance instead? It might lead to a lot of inner turmoil as she's suddenly confronted with the need to make a difficult choice, and she'd probably end up stringing both sides along for a while, until the ruse became undone but then Fancy Pants ends up liking her friends and they all enjoy the garden party, wait whoops.
Basically, I see the mom as a lazy narrative cheat, but that wasn't enough to ruin my view of her character arc. She's maintaining a lot of her agency and her characterization through this transition, and rather than fixating on "her S1-S4 agency was less than we originally thought", I'm more focused on what's in store for her S6 agency.
In addition to the whole agency thing, I find that this episode does Diamond Tiara injustice in one more way; she's very... dfferent.
For example, her performance in the begining is uncharacteristically incompetent.
She's also suddenly just mean to everyone for no reason(even though it's previously been shown that she can be nice if it is for her own benefit)
And perhaps most noticably, she's shown to be much meaner to Silver Spoon than ever before, for no discernable reason other than to make her appear worse.
To me, these things all feel like lazy writing; just some sloppy ways to move the plot forward.
I think that this, along with the whole agency thing, show that the writer worked bacwards. Rather than putting characters in a scenario and seeing how it plays out, she forced scenarios and characters to meet a predetermined outcome, and, IMO, did not do a very good job making it work =/