Frenemies Talk: S05E17 - Brotherhooves Social · 6:13pm Oct 6th, 2015
So, this weekend I got shanghaied invited to join in on a review and discussion thing of the new episode. Not having watched many episodes lately, I thought that would be a nice way to get back on the old horse pony, and maybe kickstart myself to finally catch up with the episodes. For now, though, it's just episode 17.
Prane and Gulheru are the masterminds behind this madness, and for this week's episode review, I was joined by fellow guest DrakeyC.
I wonder what caused more damage to the CMC: a grown stallion in a dress, or eye-twitching Twilight with her "Hi, girls!"
Prane: I should probably start by saying that Sisterhooves Social is one of my all-time favorites. It told a fun, engaging, and emotional story of a sister discovering how much she actually cared for her younger sibling, and how much of herself was she willing to sacrifice to make the life of the other better. To put it shortly, it had everything I expect from a slice of life episode, and even more than that, it presented me with a chance to relate. Like Rarity, I also have a sister for which I deeply care for. How much? Well, let’s just say that if you find stories about what fathers are prepared to do to you if you dare to hurt their daughters frightful, then you apparently haven’t heard those about brothers and their sisters. Like, indoctrinating you to the cathedral of agony would the most pleasant thing that would happen to you.
Anyway, back then I could relate to Rarity while not being a magical mare myself, so imagine my excitement when I heard that this time we’ll be taking the brothers more seriously. I was hoping for Mayor Mare or someone important to declare that this time around colts and stallions are also allowed to participate. I was hoping for a good Twilight/Shining and Apple Bloom/Big Mac bonding. I was hoping for a good story which just like Sisterhooves Social would allow me to relate, for something that would make Big Mac interesting for all the older brothers in the world. Unfortunately, I was left with a huge dose of disappointment and, just like twice in this season already, a not that exaggerated feeling that I would write a better story myself out of what was supposed to be the message.
What’s your opinion, guys? Were my expectations set too high, or was there something with the episode that could have been done better? General discussion, go!
DrakeyC: I think a split focus on Shining Armor and Big Mac would have seriously harmed the episode. Not that Shining doesn’t deserve more focus, because he does, but splitting focus between both of them would have done neither of them any favors for sharing the screen time. I do think perhaps your expectations were set a bit high, though. We still had an episode focusing on the brotherly bond between Apple Bloom and Big Mac, with how far he’s willing to go to make his little sister and how jealous he is that she seems so much closer to Applejack. Hopefully Shining will get his chance to get more growth later this season when he and Cadance return.
Nyerguds: I think I had my expectations for the episode set low enough to be pleasantly surprised, actually. Knowing that the premise of the thing was “Big Mac in a drag”, I expected nothing less than a total cringefest. What I ended up finding instead was… nice. Did have the expected cringeworthy scenes, but they were more or less compensated with the bonding.
Honestly though, it wouldn’t make much sense for them to just repeat Sisterhooves Social with brothers in this. They needed some different angle. Apple Bloom being embarrassed about her brother’s rather desperate attempt at returning to the time when she looked up to him did provide that.
Gulheru: I do understand the reservations about this episode and I do have to admit that it shall not be stored in my “Remarkable” memory banks. However, I still find it the kind of episode to bring an important lesson to people who possess siblings. I, personally, never experienced the ups and downs of having a brother or a sister, which made me the narcissistic, self-sufficient and antisocial personality I am today. Do not get me wrong, it is the best thing ever, yet being able to solidarize with all of those who have to deal with siblings would be somewhat intriguing.
I think, to be fair, that this episode could have been much more bland than it was. I was not particularly thrilled by it, even experiencing discomfort from a character making an obvious fool of himself, but… there was one scene that saved it for me. That reconciliation between Big Mac and Apple Bloom. There was something in our behemoth of a farmhand admitting to how he feels. Something… touching, I would dare to say.
Just wait a couple of years, Apple Bloom. You'll miss those times when you didn't have to cook everything yourself.
DrakeyC: I think the fandom as a whole was excited to get an episode focusing on Big Mac, and I definitely felt like this delivered. I felt for the guy so much, wanting to bond with Apple Bloom, living in Applejack’s shadow to an extent, and embarrassing himself in front of all of Ponyville just to try to make Apple Bloom happy. Humor, character depth, and feel-good moments, are the trifecta of things I expect from a good MLP episode, and this had all of them. Big Mac has sort-of become a one-note joke in some places about being a surrogate for bronies, and this gave him so much more depth and development than he’s had in possibly the whole rest of the series. It’s been long overdue for the guy to get his time in the spotlight, and they made the most of it.
I was very pleased when it was revealed the judges knew he was a stallion and didn’t care because brothers are allowed to enter. MLP has a very skewed gender ratio in its cast, and while I don’t mind this, I do wish there were more prominent male characters. So it was cool to see no, brothers and males are perfectly welcome: Big Mac was just being silly. What could have been an odd gender bias and exclusion theme instead turned out to just be a way for Mac to demonstrate how much he loves Apple Bloom, that he’s willing to do this for her. Though, I wonder why the judges didn’t just call him out on his “disguise” and explain the rules to him. On a meta level, I guess that without the social awkwardness the middle act of the episode would be a bit dry, but in-story I don’t have a reason for their silence.
I was watching on a stream with chat, and I definitely caught that “Orchard Blossom” wasn’t working for some folks. Cringe comedy is tricky sometimes, and perhaps they dragged this joke out a bit too long. “Orchard Blossom” was funny for a reveal in the teaser, but I dunno if it worked for me all the way through. What about you guys, how did Big Mac’s act go over with you?
Nyerguds: I honestly can’t stand cringe comedy. And indeed, the judges should’ve just called it out. On that subject, I think it would’ve been way funnier to just give one of the judging mares a knowing smirk all the time, and to have her shushing the annoyed others whenever they looked like they were about to call him out on it, rather than going with the stale old “male infatuated with other male disguised as female” gag.
Gulheru: I despise those moments when a character is making a fool of himself for the sake of helping others, or simply because they are not cunning or intelligent enough. It awakens in me that anxiety that makes it hard for me to even watch their struggles. I suppose Prane would love to experiment on me due to that…
What was quite illogical for me in the episode was, indeed, nopony buying Big Mac’s disguise. So… why bother? Either you stay in character for your deception is working, or you drop the pretense and continue your struggle as yourself. Was it really that much of a reveal that Orchard Blossom is a stallion considering… oh, I don’t know… EVERYTHING?! A reveal for the sake of a fake surprise. What a poor performance.
However, when Big Mac finally became himself, I was more than positively surprised. Him saying what has been festering inside him for so long was actually quite touching. He wished to be a hero again. An idol for little Apple Bloom. You cannot really blame him for that, especially considering that Applejack is taking nearly all of the credit lately. And, as much as I am not an enormous fan of the Apple Family in general, that little quote of his: “I guess I just thought if I could... fill in for Applejack at the Social and get you a blue ribbon, well, I could be somepony you looked up to again. Be your hero again. Even if it was for just a day.” spoke to me a lot. Points for Peter New for delivering those lines with emotion and meaning.
It saved the episode for me.
Prane: My main gripe is that I didn’t feel that was a Big Mac episode at all. I saw some Big Mac in the beginning, when that stallion of few words was approached by Applejack who knew exactly what was going on, and I saw some of him at the very end, when he opened up and told Apple Bloom what was troubling him all along. The thing is, it wasn’t Big Mac who was star of the episode. It was “Orchard Blossom”, a persona he created in order to participate. His reasoning for doing so was of course noble, but by putting on a dress, high society accent, and sophisticated speech pattern, he was unable to show us who he really is: a stallion of few words.
The other complaint I have will be the criticism of the writing. Why was the need for Big Mac to wear a dress for a brother-sister bonding story to work, again? A disguise is something that’s supposed to fool other entities and prepare them for a dramatic reveal. In this episode, everyone knew that “Orchard Blossom” was Big Mac in disguise: Big Mac himself, Apple Bloom, the CMC, other participants (on the basis of Rainbow Dash’s behavior, and, if we’re being honest, Ponyville being a small community), the judges, and we, the audience. If everyone knows the man behind the mask, then the idea of being disguised is pretty much pointless and serves no purpose in telling the story. Unless, of course, I’m missing the point here and the author wanted us to learn about the more girly side of Big Mac, but I think we’ve already had it this season when Princess Big Macintosh was fighting Tantabus.
I wish I could be more positive on that episode, but it seems that Dave Polsky’s writing isn’t working for me this season (he also did Appleoosa’s Most Wanted about which I’ve had my share of raging). They both felt like an attempt of telling an emotional story where one has to stop and ponder to truly appreciate its meaning, but in my opinion they’ve both tried too hard to be deep to ever work out.
"Light speed is too slow, Scoots! We're gonna have to go to ludicrous speed if we want to win!"
Nyerguds: I have to say, given the premise, I didn't think I'd like this episode. This kind of premise has all the potential of a complete idiot ball, with a classic flimsy Team Rocket Disguise fooling everyone. The fact it took pretty much everyone exactly zero seconds to see through the "disguise" was quite a relief, in that aspect. And that bit of blackmail towards Rainbow Dash? That was great! Oh, did anyone notice he almost said "mother" when asking about her and Scoot's relationship? 
But, yeah... the whole contest thing went down more or less like I imagined it. The rather classic pattern of the disguised person gradually revealing themselves by making mistakes. Pretty cringe-worthy overall, and the reason I don't really like these kind of things. (Though Big Mac makes an excellent Freddy Mercury 
) The race at the end did somewhat surprise me; it went from plain clumsiness from being stuck in a dress to that determination you just know won't end well. The final disqualification, and its actual reason, didn't really come as a surprise, and I was rather relieved to find out that even the judges weren't fooled for a minute.
Though, what really made this episode, of course, wasn't the actual Sisterhooves Social event. The thing this episode was all about was the intro of Big Mac reminiscing over his past time with Apple Bloom, and the wonderfully sweet bit at the end. And, to me, these were enough to really make it feel like a Big Mac episode.
Final thought: Big Mac's feminine side sure talks a lot.
Gulheru: One thing that comes to my mind and is really showcased in the “Orchard Blossom” persona is that, despite his calm, closed demeanor and rural upbringing, Big Mac has a pretty significant vocabulary and can pull out the kind of “southern lady” way of speaking quite convincingly. Perhaps the only element of the disguise that kind of worked. Although as far as changing appearances go, his “male Applejack” from “Magic Duel” was far more convincing.
Allow me to, considering the opportunity, point out that the relationship between Rainbow Dash and Scootaloo growing is actually really heartwarming. It shows that a “family” is something far more complex than a blood-bond. It comes from solidarity, care and respect towards one another. Self-sacrifice and hope. “Pinkie Apple Pie” emphasized it do a degree, but I think the growing sisterhood of Rainbow Dash and Scootaloo is an even greater example of exactly this mechanism.
And, even if I do not particularly enjoy any of those two characters, I enjoy the bond that is appearing between them.
Prane: I agree that the strongest part of the episode was its first few scenes, but I wish they’d show more of it. It would be interesting to see a couple of flashbacks, heck, I’d settle for Granny Smith pulling out a family album with pictures showing that Big Mac was the sibling that Apple Bloom used to look up to. The bit with the toy was alright, but insufficient, and it didn’t provide enough evidence to convince me that there used to be any kind of connection between the two. Yes, we can assume the existence of such a bond, because this is the Apple Family we’re talking about, the prime interests of which are apples and family matters, but within the boundaries of the episode I didn’t feel these ponies shared the bond that Big Mac craved for.
Some will say they didn’t have time for this exactly because of the time limits. I ask, then, was there really a need for showing all the juggling and chanting routine and having it abruptly interrupted by Applejack’s cutie mark glowing as far as four minutes into the episode? Showing the preparation for the Social was fine, but I feel that’s something that could have been placed in the cold opening instead of Granny Smith’s exposition. Boom, I just saved like two minutes in which Applejack could leave, Big Mac could see Apple Bloom sad, reminisce about their youth to show their bond in a believable way, and figure out how to help her.
DrakeyC: I pretty much agree. The intro and the end is what made this episode. Without it, we would have just been hitting the old one-note joke of a male character in drag making an arse of himself. It was a funny reveal for a teaser, because I don’t think anyone in the fandom expected to see that in MLP any time soon, but sitting through 22 minutes of it would not carry an episode. Fortunately, they didn’t rely on it to, at least not as much as they could have. Come the end I was chanting “Talk, talk!” because sure, Big Mac was talking a lot as “Orchard Blossom,” but it wasn’t the same.
"..." ~ Big MacIntosh's most inspiring quote. And I'm not even joking, because sometimes silence is golden!
Gulheru: Yes, there is not a single villain in the episode (other than the Cutie Map, for deviously attempting to ruin Apple Bloom’s Sisterhooves Social). Which means I am engaging my philosophical brain circuits. Or those that wish to bring challenge to others, you choose.
Obviously, the bond between siblings is powerful. Capable of coping with challenges and heartaches, able to endure during even the most incredible hardships. I, myself, cannot really say that I have any experience like that in my life. Being an only child does come with certain benefits (like eating an entire cake without sharing) and also some cons (why, on Earth, did I eat all of it, now my stomach is killing me). Yet, I would wish to ask for a rather specific little thing - if, by a chance one of you would end up in a “Brotherhooves Social” scenario, would you have the strength of will and tenacity to dress up and pretend, just so your little sister would get that blue ribbon? Would you back out? Or, perhaps, would you be more cunning and come up with a better solution?
Everything for your little sister, no?
Prane: Absolutely! I think that dressing up, smearing powder on my face, applying the lipstick, contouring, highlighting, and making a good use of blush and bronzers would all be a small price to pay for making someone else’s day. What’s the worst thing that could happen, anyway? The other participants laughing at me? I’d outtalk them, quite possibly making some of the sisters fall for my act in the process. While I’m no expert at putting on make-up, I’d find a way to look fantabulous, and I’d give my utmost to get that ribbon. I would not, however, follow Big Mac’s hoofsteps and I’d rather accept my defeat than ruin the event for anyone else. In other words, I’d treat this as a great opportunity to have fun and discover my more feminine side. Why I’m so eager, you ask? I’ll let Khan take that one!
Is there anything you would not do for your family?
DrakeyC: I’m in the only child boat with you, but I’ve had little cousins. Really, though, there’s so many times we make fools of ourselves, mostly holidays and other special occasions. If I had a little sister and she needed support, I’d humiliate myself to help her out. Humiliation fades, at least it does in Equestria where there’s no such thing as the internet. But, I don’t know if I’d try to pass as a woman, mostly because I don’t think I’d be able to pull it off, anyway.
Nyerguds: My little sister was an absolute terror when we were little. I'm from a family of five kids, and I got an older brother, an older sister, a younger sister and a younger brother, in that order. (I thought that was nicely balanced, since I had two of each. My sisters vehemently disagreed.) I never really got along with my older brother and my youngest sister when I was young. The one I always looked up to was my older sister. Me, though, I'm a middle child. No one ever looked up to me. I was kind of forgettable in the middle there.
As for the situation there... Family ties are an odd little thing. No, I wouldn't do something like that for my youngest sister. Heck, she wouldn't expect me to want to, either; she was my annoying little sister, after all. Family ties are more about sticking together despite such internal struggles, in my opinion. If I saw someone picking on her? Oh, they'd catch hell, all right. Nowadays, she's the mother of my adorable goddaughter, so that changes things somewhat.
As a kid myself, well, my two sisters and I were very close together in age, to the point we were sometimes mistaken for triplets (my older sister’s never been a tall person), and I didn't get along with my older brother, so I never had the kind of dynamic shown in the episode. Now, as godfather and uncle, though, I can definitely understand a kid looking up to me like that, and when it comes to my niece and nephews, hell yea I'd do crazy stuff to make them happy.
I thought the episode concept was great, but the episode was painful for me to watch because Big Mac was too far OOC. Big Mac simply wouldn't be able to suddenly become so talkative, so extroverted, spinning out long vacuous sentences, whether he wanted to or not.
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Well, some actors are completely different from the way they play their roles, I guess. You never know what people do in their free time; after all, Big Mac was also revealed to sing in an ensemble
But yeah, I far prefer him as the big quiet guy